Nadal takes 5 weeks off and misses Paris to rest and practice for this match. He really wants the WTF badly so he rests for 5 long weeks to prepare mentally and physically for this match. The fact that he's not tired is quite evident when he goes 3-0 in the round robin and beats Murray playing his best tennis in the semis. His semi is the first one so he has 3 extra hours to recover form the match, versus Roger's semi which started much later in the day. Roger did seem a bit tired in the match especially in the second set when he gave it away to Nadal with a few bad serves. Fresh Nadal easily pounced on Fed's tiredness and took advantage to take the second set otherwise it would be been a straight set loss. It's actually quite surprising that a 29 year old way past his prime Federer could so handily beat a Fresh Nadal in peak form. What does this really say about his #1 status? Questionable indeed.
Fresh Nadal routed by federer in wtf final
- Thread starter Upperhand
- Start date
powerangle
Legend
It's actually quite surprising that a young pre-prime Nadal beat an in-prime Federer in 2006 Dubai final, on Nadal's worst surface and Federer's best, when Federer was far and away ranked #1. What does this really say about Federer's #1 status back then? Questionable indeed.
GasquetGOAT
Hall of Fame
I disagree there. There is no such thing as a pre-prime Nadal. Nadal was born as a prime. Nadal = Prime. It's an insult to Nadal and his family to suggest otherwise.
I wouldn't say both players were 100% fresh in the final since there wasn't much rest to recuperate. But for sure, Nadal had more times to rest his body while Fed had around 16.5 hours. They should scheduled the two semifinal matches alot closer b/c six hours difference is alot since there isn't any off day. Nadal clearly had an advantage.
What is more important is that Nadal had 5 week off just to be ready for the wtf. And he was playing really well and it was clear that he wanted to win this tournament. For the Nadal fans its hard to accept that he was simply outplayed from Roger. The match showed this itself when Federer level dropped Nadal won easily the second set, but in the first and third Federer was too good for Nadal.
What I took from that final was that neither of them were at their best , Nadal in particular.. and reflecting on what I have seen recently going back on previous discussions. had they been playing prime McEnroe , Connors , Borg, Lendl they would have been eaten for breakfast!
I strongly disagree. In fact, I'm not even sure they could have beaten Murray or Nole.
cknobman
Legend
I even heard Nadal was actually born on Cybertron.
powerangle
Legend
Error in your logic. Post-prime Federer > Prime Nadal (see WTF 2010).
Prime Federer > Post-prime Federer (by definition).
Therefore Prime Federer > Prime Nadal.
QED.
Career slams:
Federer 16
Nadal 9
Davydenko Career Record Head to Head with Nadal:
Davydenko > Nadal: 5-4
Yes I was SAYING
Omega_7000
Legend
Amazing thread!
TennezSport
Hall of Fame
Attrition.........
We all know that both players are great champions, but it's much tougher for Rafa to accomplish than it is for Fed. In order to play at Fed's naturally high level(when Fed is on) Rafa has to work 10 times as hard. When Rafa has played a tough match with Murray, Djoker or Davydenko and then has to play Fed it's too much.
Fed can get away with this against other players because his game is a lot more effecient. This is why Rafa has suffered with multiple injuries for the last 9 years straight. His great mental tenacity consistenly pushes his body beyond the breaking point, along with some poor biomechanical strokes and muscling the ball (example: torn shoulder tendon because of muscling his new serve).
Rafa has always had this problem and always will, which says a lot about his strengths. Rafa will definately have his work cut out for him next year with Murray, Djoker and the others looking for more wins, along with a newly confident Fed.
Cheers, TennezSport
We all know that both players are great champions, but it's much tougher for Rafa to accomplish than it is for Fed. In order to play at Fed's naturally high level(when Fed is on) Rafa has to work 10 times as hard. When Rafa has played a tough match with Murray, Djoker or Davydenko and then has to play Fed it's too much.
Fed can get away with this against other players because his game is a lot more effecient. This is why Rafa has suffered with multiple injuries for the last 9 years straight. His great mental tenacity consistenly pushes his body beyond the breaking point, along with some poor biomechanical strokes and muscling the ball (example: torn shoulder tendon because of muscling his new serve).
Rafa has always had this problem and always will, which says a lot about his strengths. Rafa will definately have his work cut out for him next year with Murray, Djoker and the others looking for more wins, along with a newly confident Fed.
Cheers, TennezSport
Bryan Swartz
Hall of Fame
It says virtually nothing, because it was one match. #1 status is based on a year's worth of matching. Over that year's worth, Nadal was significantly better than Federer.
If Federer played as well as he did in the WTF final, that would be different -- but he didn't.
Or, as the stat-heads would say, sample size anyone?
Satch
Hall of Fame
Bobby Jr
G.O.A.T.
The best multi-sport athletes in the world are how old?
- in their 30s.
The best long-distance runners in the world are how old?
- in their 30s.
A 29 year old male tennis player is almost certain to have better endurance than the average 24 year old (if all other factors are roughly equal - which they certainly wont be: training, genetics etc)
Where they differ is sheer speed. The younger guy is likely to be nearer his peak ability in this respect.
They will also differ in their recovery - the jury is out on this and some think the tradeoff for the 30 yrs old's endurance is slower recovery time. Others think it doesn't matter as, given equal tasks, they'll probably be less worn out and therefore have less recovery to do.
Simply: Nadal was not worn out from the Murray match so much that it affected his final. He was just a bit flat and shell-shocked by Federer hitting out and not letting him into his usual grind.
- in their 30s.
The best long-distance runners in the world are how old?
- in their 30s.
A 29 year old male tennis player is almost certain to have better endurance than the average 24 year old (if all other factors are roughly equal - which they certainly wont be: training, genetics etc)
Where they differ is sheer speed. The younger guy is likely to be nearer his peak ability in this respect.
They will also differ in their recovery - the jury is out on this and some think the tradeoff for the 30 yrs old's endurance is slower recovery time. Others think it doesn't matter as, given equal tasks, they'll probably be less worn out and therefore have less recovery to do.
Simply: Nadal was not worn out from the Murray match so much that it affected his final. He was just a bit flat and shell-shocked by Federer hitting out and not letting him into his usual grind.
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Bryan Swartz
Hall of Fame
Tennis is different from those other sports though. The best years for tennis players are consistently those in the mid-20s(with some exceptions, but rare). What the reason for this is can be debated. But 29 is clearly past the prime of tennis players. It isn't something that is equal for all sports, because of the different skills and athletic elements that are most important for different sports.
namelessone
Legend
What's prime Rafa?
For Fed you have a string of years generally accepted as 2004-2007. But I'd wager that if Roger wins 3 slams in 2011 they'd still say he is post prime Fed.
Rafa's very good years have been 2008 and 2010. 2009 was only good in the first month but overall I wouldn't call it a prime year for Rafa.
For me Rafa has matured a lot since 2008 as a player and I think that his only prime year has been 2010 to be honest. In the 2008-2010 period Rafa has been up,down,up again. He didn't sustain a constant upwards level like Fed in those years. Sure, in 2009 it was due to injuries but the point still stands.
I think we may be entering Rafa's prime and it may last 1-2 years.
Anyway, it's funny that prime Federer and prime Nadal have never met
For what it's worth I think 17 year old beating the world nr.1 was far more shocking since Nadal was top 50 and Fed was priming. I know people like to act as if they are in shock about the WTF win but Fed is better indoors and played a better WTF so I don't see why the shock. Even the bookies had him as fav and I'd wager they know more about the ins and outs of this sport than the people posting here.
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namelessone
Legend
Not for special players and Federer is clearly in that category. I liked Agassi way more in old age to be honest and Agassi had far fewer weapons than Fed with similar physical fortitude, if not greater.
powerangle
Legend
Error in your logic. Post-prime Federer > Prime Nadal (see WTF 2010).
Prime Federer > Post-prime Federer (by definition).
Therefore Prime Federer > Prime Nadal.
QED.
Then how come Prime Federer lost to Nadal in 2006, even off clay?
So it must be circular then:
Nadal 2006 > Prime Federer (2006) > Post-prime Federer > Prime Nadal
Nadal 2006 must be the peak, beyond prime Federer even
powerangle
Legend
Says who? Says you?
OK that is your opinion.
I say young Nadal beating prime Federer (on Nadal's worst surface and Federer's best) > experienced veteran Federer beating prime Rafa (on Nadal's worst surface and Federer's best)
TennezSport
Hall of Fame
Agreed..........
People put too much into the age in years vs the age in wear and tear. Clearly Fed is special in having an effectient game with minimal wear on his body; exceptionally effecient. Agassi had his best years after 29 and Fed is very capable of the same if he stays heathly, motivated and plans his year effeciently.
Raf on the other hand has a game that is tough on his body and 9 consecutive years of multiple injuries and medical interventions proves this, so it will always be tougher on him to maintain that winning level. 2011 will be very interesting for Raf because he has so much to defend next year. He will have to do the same or better just to stay even. The last time he tried that he lost a half year to injury. Not saying that he cannot do it, but it will very interesting to see him try.
Cheers, TennezSport
People put too much into the age in years vs the age in wear and tear. Clearly Fed is special in having an effectient game with minimal wear on his body; exceptionally effecient. Agassi had his best years after 29 and Fed is very capable of the same if he stays heathly, motivated and plans his year effeciently.
Raf on the other hand has a game that is tough on his body and 9 consecutive years of multiple injuries and medical interventions proves this, so it will always be tougher on him to maintain that winning level. 2011 will be very interesting for Raf because he has so much to defend next year. He will have to do the same or better just to stay even. The last time he tried that he lost a half year to injury. Not saying that he cannot do it, but it will very interesting to see him try.
Cheers, TennezSport
Satch
Hall of Fame
can't see rafa playing much better than 2008 and 2010 so it's his prime years.
also my previous post was sarcastic because i don't care about "primes", i enjoy tennis... so thanks for a good laugh..
powerangle
Legend
Satch
Hall of Fame
My post was sarcastic too, glad we both enjoy the amusement of these threads
but i quoted namelessone
namelessone
Legend
powerangle
Legend
but i quoted namelessone
oh, well then my point still stands, both sarcastically and otherwise
Satch
Hall of Fame
T
TheMagicianOfPrecision
Guest
Federer won, fair and square, but no need to analize everything into bits and pieces. I disagree that Federer is "way past his prime"...AO this year was the best I have seen since 2005-2007, Cincy also and some matches in Stockholm,Basel, Paris and London.
Bobby Jr
G.O.A.T.
This thread was talking specifically about fitness/tiredness, not skills. What I said is in isolation of other variables like skill/talent/mood/what you had for breakfast.
Manus Domini
Hall of Fame
anyone notice the guy's name is upperhand? only thing that could reference is underhand, meaning the OP is actually another TT poster trying to get more pro-Federer bs out there...
OT:, Nadal was tired. Or at least seemed to be. However, I think that was only a minor cause, the main one being that Fed just simply outplayed Nadal and played the way he should be playing against Rafa: stalk the baseline and don't be afraid to get to the net.
OT:, Nadal was tired. Or at least seemed to be. However, I think that was only a minor cause, the main one being that Fed just simply outplayed Nadal and played the way he should be playing against Rafa: stalk the baseline and don't be afraid to get to the net.
Just because you're prime doesn't mean your record is 100-0. In Fed's prime he was 5-2 off-clay against Nadal, that's pretty respectable and worthy of a prime #1. In Nadal's prime 2010, they are 1-1. Sad.
powerangle
Legend
Why choose "off clay"? Why not all surfaces? Being selective with stats so it makes Federer look good?
Where was Federer in French Open and Wimbledon and US Open to play Nadal?
Bryan Swartz
Hall of Fame
I don't agree that this is the case with Federer. He's not as good as he was in 2005-2006. Agassi was consistently actually better in his 30s than in his prime years, but he is literally the only player I am aware of in the modern age for whom this is the case. Given that in the 2004-2006 period(when Federer was 23-25 y.o.), he won no fewer than 92.5% of his matches in any single season, and by contrast in the last three years he has never done better than 83.6%, there is simply no logical reason to believe he will be able to ever return to his mid-20s form over the course of the season.
Of course, he still is capable of challenging for the #1 overall ranking -- this does not mean Federer is anything other than a great player even at 29 or 30. It does mean he is not at the level he once was.
Wilander Fan
Hall of Fame
From what I have seen, male tennis players peak in their early 20s normally and start to fade in their mid 20s. I think its the wear and tear of nagging injuries more than the age. There are exceptions like Connors but I think luck has a part to play in it as well.
Agassi at 31 was much bigger and stronger and his earlier self. He hit much harder and seemed to be training more. It reminded me of major league baseball infielders in the same era that were lead off men for most of their careers and then beefed up into 30 home run threats.
Bryan Swartz
Hall of Fame
Most do, but there are a significant number who have peaked in their mid-late 20s. Soderling is 26 and just had his best year. Berdych is 25 and same thing. Ditto Verdasco at 27, and Youzhny's best years were 2008 and this year, when he was 26 and 28 respectively.
That's four guys just in this year's Top 10.
Go to 30 or higher though and you almost never see it.
That's four guys just in this year's Top 10.
Go to 30 or higher though and you almost never see it.
Federer best indoor not outdoor hard
Federer's best surface is indoor, not outdoor hard (ie Dubai). He has a 3 to 0 head to head with Nadal indoor.
Federer's best surface is indoor, not outdoor hard (ie Dubai). He has a 3 to 0 head to head with Nadal indoor.
PrinceMoron
Legend
What was the temperature on court ? - thought it was really cold surprisingly.
D
Deleted member 21996
Guest
coffee all over my keyboard...
dandelion_smiley
Banned
Federer was playing with an ankle injury around late 2005-early 2006 and against a hungry/fresh Nadal who was out of the game for quite some time. Just look how a supposed-to-be-in-his prime Federer struggled in Australia just 2 weeks before Dubai. 5 setter with Haas? Very tough 4-setter with Davydenko, 4-setter with Kiefer, Baghdatis who almost led him a set and a double break in the final?
And how about Madrid 2009? A prime Nadal beat a post-prime Federer on Federer's worst and Nadal's best surface in front of his home crowd, when Fed was struggling big time with his game and Nadal dominating the tour? What does this really say about Nadal's #1 status back then? Questionable indeed.
jackson vile
G.O.A.T.
Yep, sounds like excuses. Sorry buddy, that is part of the game... "This one time when I went to hit the ball there was an extra gust of wind, it caused me to not play my best, so you did not beat me at my best..." LOL
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