Gamma Cam Action Base Clamps for 6004?

[g_desilva]

I bought my Gamma 6004 used from a gentleman who sold me the switch-action clamps with the machine (found on the 5003). I'd love to get a hold of the cam action base clamps that are normally found on the 6004, but since they're rather expensive, I was curious if you veteran 6004 users thought this would be worth the upgrade?

Thanks in advance.

Best,
Gayan

 

[Lakers4Life]

The early 6004s came with the switch action base clamps, then were upgraded to the Cam Action Switch clamps. The 5003 were shipped with the Quick Action clamps. I don't know how the Quick Action clamps found thier way on your 6004, unless it's like DD's 6002, which had the wingnut clamps.

The early 6004s did have a Switch Action clamp, that had a Cam on the inside, but were much smaller and resemble Star4 base clamps, but were black. I think those were Version 3 of the 6004 line.

As for upgrading, if the current clamps work fine, why replace them? Unless you have $500 buring a hole in your pocket. The latest Cam Action Switch clamps are one of the best in industry.

BTW do you have photos of your machine? I'm just guessing from what you are describing.

 

[g_desilva]

As far as I know, the gentleman that I bought the machine from told me he had kept the 6004 clamps (which were the cam action) for a different machine, and replaced them with the 5003 quick action clamps - he priced the machine accordingly for the "downgrade".

These are what my current clamps look like: http://www.gammasports.com/gamma.cfm?product=2010

(Sorry to the moderators if posting that link is not allowed...?)

While I wouldn't say I have 500 burning in my pocket, it's an upgrade I have been considering (just got a wise, so that's checked off!)

 

[Lakers4Life]

Which towers do you have? The New ones (black) or the old red and gray.

 

[LttlElvis]

The cam action 6004 base clamps are nice...... But not $500 nice. Be happy with what you have and save the $ for your next machine.

 

[g_desilva]

Black towers

 

[Lakers4Life]

The cam action 6004 base clamps are nice...... But not $500 nice. Be happy with what you have and save the $ for your next machine.

I kinda agree with you. More or less it depends on how much he got the machine for, even though it was reduced because of the clamps. $600-$900 is the market value for a 2008 and up, 6004. He can also try to sell the Quick Action clamps to an Eagnas owner for up to $125.

Black towers

That's pretty new. With Self Centering mounts? Also 2-point or 6-point.

 

[g_desilva]

I bought the machine for 700, including shipping (from Washington). It's self centering 6 point mount.

 

[sstchur]

The exact model in question here is a 6004 (2011 model), 6pt SC with switch action base clamps. The machine was used for about a year before it was sold and was (is) in excellent condition.

The base clamps he has on them now are from a 5800 (2012 model).

The machine was $700 (shipped). At the time of purchase, a new 6004 6pt SC was priced at $1349. Estimating maybe 75 to 80% value for an excellent condition 6004, that'd be about ~$1000. Take another $300 off for the swapping of 5800 base clamps in place of the original 6004's base clamps, and you're at $700.

Further considering that the $700 included shipping and shipping was about $70, I think it was very fairly priced.

Having experience with both base clamps, the switch action are definitely nicer, but IMO, it depends how many racquets you do at a time. I wouldn't want to do 5 in a row with the quick action, and I'm glad I have the switch action for those days when I am doing several in a row without stopping.

If I'm only doing a few a week, the quick action would be perfectly fine.

It's also worth noting that the quick action from Gamma as MUCH better than quick action from other brands that I've used. I used to have a Mutual Power with quick (but not switch) action, and those weren't nearly as nice as Gamma's quick action.

 

[g_desilva]

The exact model in question here is a 6004 (2011 model), 6pt SC with switch action base clamps. The machine was used for about a year before it was sold and was (is) in excellent condition.

The base clamps he has on them now are from a 5800 (2012 model).

The machine was $700 (shipped). At the time of purchase, a new 6004 6pt SC was priced at $1349. Estimating maybe 75 to 80% value for an excellent condition 6004, that'd be about ~$1000. Take another $300 off for the swapping of 5800 base clamps in place of the original 6004's base clamps, and you're at $700.

Further considering that the $700 included shipping and shipping was about $70, I think it was very fairly priced.

Having experience with both base clamps, the switch action are definitely nicer, but IMO, it depends how many racquets you do at a time. I wouldn't want to do 5 in a row with the quick action, and I'm glad I have the switch action for those days when I am doing several in a row without stopping.

If I'm only doing a few a week, the quick action would be perfectly fine.

It's also worth noting that the quick action from Gamma as MUCH better than quick action from other brands that I've used. I used to have a Mutual Power with quick (but not switch) action, and those weren't nearly as nice as Gamma's quick action.

It should also be noted that I beat down sstchur on the price And for what its worth, I am thrilled to have received such a high quality machine at some a bargain price. Now that I think of it, I don't think I left you any positive feedback on the reference section, sstchur - I should remedy that immediately.

 

[Lakers4Life]

$500 for Switch Action clamps upgrades would bring the total to practically a new machine. Steve is one shrewd seller.

 

[diredesire]

The exact model in question here is a 6004 (2011 model), 6pt SC with switch action base clamps. The machine was used for about a year before it was sold and was (is) in excellent condition.

The base clamps he has on them now are from a 5800 (2012 model).

The machine was $700 (shipped). At the time of purchase, a new 6004 6pt SC was priced at $1349. Estimating maybe 75 to 80% value for an excellent condition 6004, that'd be about ~$1000. Take another $300 off for the swapping of 5800 base clamps in place of the original 6004's base clamps, and you're at $700.

Further considering that the $700 included shipping and shipping was about $70, I think it was very fairly priced.

Having experience with both base clamps, the switch action are definitely nicer, but IMO, it depends how many racquets you do at a time. I wouldn't want to do 5 in a row with the quick action, and I'm glad I have the switch action for those days when I am doing several in a row without stopping.

If I'm only doing a few a week, the quick action would be perfectly fine.

It's also worth noting that the quick action from Gamma as MUCH better than quick action from other brands that I've used. I used to have a Mutual Power with quick (but not switch) action, and those weren't nearly as nice as Gamma's quick action.

You sold your backup machine, eh? You should have let me know, man... I guess the Baby 8800 suits your needs, eh? Did you have a WISE tension head, too?

$500 for Switch Action clamps upgrades would bring the total to practically a new machine. Steve is one shrewd seller.

IMHO the upgrade clamps separately are a pretty hard sell. You need to factor in the fact that he HAS clamps, and isn't forced to buy new ones. At worst the difference is $300. He was aware of the fact before he bought the machine, not sure why you're giving him such a hard time, here... $700 is a VERY fair price for that machine. Self centering mounts is a nice feature. You can easily sell used NEOSes in good shape for this price... heck, you could sell a 5003 in similar shape for this price. I don't think the price comparison above really makes that much sense. OP got a very reasonable deal... IMHO.

 

[g_desilva]

IMHO the upgrade clamps separately are a pretty hard sell. You need to factor in the fact that he HAS clamps, and isn't forced to buy new ones. At worst the difference is $300. He was aware of the fact before he bought the machine, not sure why you're giving him such a hard time, here... $700 is a VERY fair price for that machine. Self centering mounts is a nice feature. You can easily sell used NEOSes in good shape for this price... heck, you could sell a 5003 in similar shape for this price. I don't think the price comparison above really makes that much sense. OP got a very reasonable deal... IMHO.

I agree - I think I got a great price and a DEAL on this machine. At no point did I think that Steve gave me a bad deal, in fact, it's one of the nicest machines I've ever seen. The idea of upgrading the clamps was just something I was throwing out there to get some opinions, most of which seem to be that it's not worth it.

 

[sstchur]

You sold your backup machine, eh? You should have let me know, man... I guess the Baby 8800 suits your needs, eh? Did you have a WISE tension head, too?

I had no idea you would have had any interest or else I would have! I kept the 6004 for about a year after getting Baby 8800, and I think I used it once. I thought maybe I would use either as a backup if power went down or something went wrong w/ my electronic, but after a year I found that it was mostly just sitting, so figured there was little sense in not converting it to cash.

I didn't have a WISE with it -- it was something I had considered (thinking maybe I'd like to have two electronic machines around) but in the end, decided not to do.

I believe the new owner has already fitted it with a WISE. So he's just trying to decide if we wants the upgraded base clamps.

 

[g_desilva]

I had no idea you would have had any interest or else I would have! I kept the 6004 for about a year after getting Baby 8800, and I think I used it once. I thought maybe I would use either as a backup if power went down or something went wrong w/ my electronic, but after a year I found that it was mostly just sitting, so figured there was little sense in not converting it to cash.

I didn't have a WISE with it -- it was something I had considered (thinking maybe I'd like to have two electronic machines around) but in the end, decided not to do.

I believe the new owner has already fitted it with a WISE. So he's just trying to decide if we wants the upgraded base clamps.

CORRECT! (10char)

 

[diredesire]

I had no idea you would have had any interest or else I would have! I kept the 6004 for about a year after getting Baby 8800, and I think I used it once. I thought maybe I would use either as a backup if power went down or something went wrong w/ my electronic, but after a year I found that it was mostly just sitting, so figured there was little sense in not converting it to cash.

I didn't have a WISE with it -- it was something I had considered (thinking maybe I'd like to have two electronic machines around) but in the end, decided not to do.

I believe the new owner has already fitted it with a WISE. So he's just trying to decide if we wants the upgraded base clamps.

No worries, I have no use for another machine, but I have a buddy that'd probably have been interested. I have similar though processes to you from time to time, but I'm not as disciplined about getting rid of things I really don't need... I have two oscilloscopes, for instance...

As far as the OP: I don't think the upgrade is really necessary in ANY case, it really is a nice to have sort of thing. I have a 5800 that I picked up on the cheap, and I've been debating the same thing myself. I can't justify the extra cost when the quick actions do so well. If I was making a very steady stream of income via stringing, though, I'd probably upgrade. I'd have to have a handful of frames every day to convince myself, though.

 

[sstchur]

No worries, I have no use for another machine, but I have a buddy that'd probably have been interested. I have similar though processes to you from time to time, but I'm not as disciplined about getting rid of things I really don't need... I have two oscilloscopes, for instance...

As far as the OP: I don't think the upgrade is really necessary in ANY case, it really is a nice to have sort of thing. I have a 5800 that I picked up on the cheap, and I've been debating the same thing myself. I can't justify the extra cost when the quick actions do so well. If I was making a very steady stream of income via stringing, though, I'd probably upgrade. I'd have to have a handful of frames every day to convince myself, though.

I agree with DD completely on this. Gamma's quick action are really quite good, and with low to moderate volume, I think it makes sense to save your money.

I do have several to do each time, and sometime MORE than just several, so for me the switch action are worth it.

 

[Lakers4Life]

IMHO the upgrade clamps separately are a pretty hard sell. You need to factor in the fact that he HAS clamps, and isn't forced to buy new ones. At worst the difference is $300. He was aware of the fact before he bought the machine, not sure why you're giving him such a hard time, here... $700 is a VERY fair price for that machine. Self centering mounts is a nice feature. You can easily sell used NEOSes in good shape for this price... heck, you could sell a 5003 in similar shape for this price. I don't think the price comparison above really makes that much sense. OP got a very reasonable deal... IMHO.

Yeah, but a used 6004 with the New base clamps, sells from $600-$900 in the spot market. Down grade the Base Clamps, which is pretty much the heart of the machine, to the QA type, and your now looking at a $600 on the hight side, same price as 5003 in the same market with better mounting towers. So $700 for a downgraded 6004 is a bit high, but then again that's what the OP paid for happily. I don't mean to rain on the OP sunshine, but to me Steve got the better end of the deal, since that was a discounted machine to begin with.

The difference between the QA and the SA clamps are a world apart.

 

[sstchur]

Yeah, but a used 6004 with the New base clamps, sells from $600-$900 in the spot market. Down grade the Base Clamps, which is pretty much the heart of the machine, to the QA type, and your now looking at a $600 on the hight side, same price as 5003 in the same market with better mounting towers. So $700 for a downgraded 6004 is a bit high, but then again that's what the OP paid for happily. I don't mean to rain on the OP sunshine, but to me Steve got the better end of the deal, since that was a discounted machine to begin with.

The difference between the QA and the SA clamps are a world apart.

I dunno, I think the towers on the 6004 are more valuable than you're implying. It's not fair/accurate to say that what the buyer got was essentially a 5003 (which is what it feels like you're implying to me). It's definitely more valuable than a straight 5003. I still stand firm that it was a good value, and I believe the buyer does too. At least I hope so -- I'm certainly not out to screw anybody, and I put considerable thought into the transaction (I was trying to sell it locally first and for considerably more).

 

[Lakers4Life]

For me that deal was a bit on the high side. Since you and OP are good with transaction. That's all we need to know.

More or less if you had sold a whole 6004 with the propper base clamps, you would of sold it for $900-$1000? Heck, I'll sell my 6004 in heartbeat if someone gave me that amount of money, but I'm probably not going to get that.

 

[sstchur]

For me that deal was a bit on the high side. Since you and OP are good with transaction. That's all we need to know.

More or less if you had sold a whole 6004 with the propper base clamps, you would of sold it for $900-$1000? Heck, I'll sell my 6004 in heartbeat if someone gave me that amount of money, but I'm probably not going to get that.

For a 6004 with only a year's worth of use that was well maintained, yeah, I'd be gunning for $900 to $1000 or maybe even a little higher to start.

Machines hold their value fairly well. 80% value isn't unreasonable, I don't think. Obviously as condition goes down and age goes up, value goes down. That of course, is a judgement call which is highly subjective.

I think in your neck of the woods, these things come up for sale a lot more often than they do in some other places. I rarely ever see any for sale where I am, and I suspect there aren't many where the OP's form either. The available supply here factors into the value, and I suspect that your point of view comes from (in part) your location, and the fact that landing a machine like this is probably a easier prospect in your area, than in many other areas.

 

[diredesire]

For a 6004 with only a year's worth of use that was well maintained, yeah, I'd be gunning for $900 to $1000 or maybe even a little higher to start.

Machines hold their value fairly well. 80% value isn't unreasonable, I don't think. Obviously as condition goes down and age goes up, value goes down. That of course, is a judgement call which is highly subjective.

I think in your neck of the woods, these things come up for sale a lot more often than they do in some other places. I rarely ever see any for sale where I am, and I suspect there aren't many where the OP's form either. The available supply here factors into the value, and I suspect that your point of view comes from (in part) your location, and the fact that landing a machine like this is probably a easier prospect in your area, than in many other areas.

Even though I mentioned it above, that's probably where my bias comes in.. I'm located near sstchur (PNW), and machines come up very rarely on CL. Most of the ones I've seen are low end, too. When I was searching for machines way back in the day (when I started stringing), nothing came up. Only time I've found a reasonable deal in the area was when our local sporting goods chain closed down a ton of their stores... that's actually where I picked the 6002 up. I've always found that machines hold their value exceptionally well, but maybe that's changed a lot since I last looked.

 

[struggle]

i'd muster that many folks base prices on the NEOS offers that they see on the bay, CL etc.

i'm not saying the Gamma is better (although i like it better, 6004) but it may be like apples and oranges..........lots more apples would imply they might sell for cheaper in general.

or, maybe not?

 

[g_desilva]

Even though I mentioned it above, that's probably where my bias comes in.. I'm located near sstchur (PNW), and machines come up very rarely on CL. Most of the ones I've seen are low end, too. When I was searching for machines way back in the day (when I started stringing), nothing came up. Only time I've found a reasonable deal in the area was when our local sporting goods chain closed down a ton of their stores... that's actually where I picked the 6002 up. I've always found that machines hold their value exceptionally well, but maybe that's changed a lot since I last looked.

This is absolutely true, especially in Cleveland. There really isn't a huge tennis culture here...heck, there isn't even a store devoted entirely to tennis around here.

 

[Lakers4Life]

This is absolutely true, especially in Cleveland. There really isn't a huge tennis culture here...heck, there isn't even a store devoted entirely to tennis around here.

I know a Desilva that plays for Cornell College in OH, any relation?

Gamma is located in Pittsburg, I'd say that's pretty close enough. I want to say Mid-West is close too.

 

[g_desilva]

I know a Desilva that plays for Cornell College in OH, any relation?

Gamma is located in Pittsburg, I'd say that's pretty close enough. I want to say Mid-West is close too.

Haha, no relation as far as I know...?? By close, what I mean is I want to be able to get in my car, drive for 30 minutes, and arrive at a retailer tailored for tennis. Maybe I was spoiled living in SE Michigan, because one of the best tennis and golf stores in the country is located there. Pittsburgh is about 2 hours away, and Mid-West is about 4 hours away, sadly.

 

[Lakers4Life]

TW is 400 miles away, but I get my orders usually the next day.

What I'm trying to say is why buy a used machine half way across the country when you could of ordered from almost anywhere, for a few hundred more with a warranty. BTW Gamma drop ships from most of it's dealers. I know the deal is done, but I want to warn other readers to think carefully before purchasing a machine.

Sorry for playing Devil's Advocate here, but you opened yourself up by wanting to upgrade to the correct base clamps your machine orginally came with. It's like buying a Mustang that originally had a 302 but was sold with a 289, and now you want to put back the 302.

 

[g_desilva]

I don't think I opened myself up to anything. My question was simply what people's feelings were about the cam action clamps, that was all - you can read the title of my thread. At some point, it was convoluted into something completely unrelated about cost effectiveness and whether or not I received a "good deal".

 

[Lakers4Life]

I bought my Gamma 6004 used from a gentleman who sold me the switch-action clamps with the machine (found on the 5003). I'd love to get a hold of the cam action base clamps that are normally found on the 6004, but since they're rather expensive, I was curious if you veteran 6004 users thought this would be worth the upgrade?

Here is my read on this, You got a 6004 with 5003 base clamps. You want (love) to get the orginal clamps that came with the machine.

Here are the Facts: You purchased said machine for $700+shipping. Now you are considering spending another $500 to bring yout machine back to Original Spec. $500+$700=$1200. A new machine is $1349 from TW, $1299 from a couple other sources.

Tell me where I'm wrong. PT Barnum has a saying, but we all know what he said.

 

[sstchur]

Here is my read on this, You got a 6004 with 5003 base clamps. You want (love) to get the orginal clamps that came with the machine.

Here are the Facts: You purchased said machine for $700+shipping. Now you are considering spending another $500 to bring yout machine back to Original Spec. $500+$700=$1200. A new machine is $1349 from TW, $1299 from a couple other sources.

Tell me where I'm wrong. PT Barnum has a saying, but we all know what he said.

I don't understand what's so confusing about it.

$1349 (new price) x 0.80 (figure 80% value for a good quality, gently used machine)
= $1079

Subtract $480 for SA clamps = $599

Add back in $150 for QA clamps (they aren't worth nothing remember) = $749

Even if you assume only 75% value, or even if you start at $1299. You're still very close to $700.

And that is just the machine itself. I'll point out again, his price INCLUDED shipping. And this was no USPS either. I shipped it FedEx, insured for the proper amount, and packed well. So that actual machine cost was closer to $620-$630, with about $70 to $80 accounting for shipping.

 

[Lakers4Life]

Now that we are on the subject of where the base clamps come from. Do you really have a 8800 or a 5800? Other than the base clamps and tensioner they are not exactly the same machine for a $950 difference in price.

 

[diredesire]

Now that we are on the subject of where the base clamps come from. Do you really have a 8800 or a 5800? Other than the base clamps and tensioner they are not exactly the same machine for a $950 difference in price.

I (?) nicknamed the machine a "baby 8800," but it's a 5800 + SA clamps. Those buttons are basically no value add IMHO. I'm not even sure I'd use them if I had them. (As an aside, though, I'm an electrical engineer, and I tried to use the buttons by shorting the pads, but they don't work on a 5800, probably some unpopulated jumpers or control circuitry on the PCB).

 

[g_desilva]

Here is my read on this, You got a 6004 with 5003 base clamps. You want (love) to get the orginal clamps that came with the machine.

Here are the Facts: You purchased said machine for $700+shipping. Now you are considering spending another $500 to bring yout machine back to Original Spec. $500+$700=$1200. A new machine is $1349 from TW, $1299 from a couple other sources.

Tell me where I'm wrong. PT Barnum has a saying, but we all know what he said.

Here's MY read on this - you seem to be rather motivated to make myself, and everyone who reads this thread convinced that I entered into a poorly constructed agreement. I'm not entirely sure where your bias is kicking in, or what you are attempting to prove from your mathematical analysis of this situation...?????

I posed a question to the forum, received well constructed answers from many well informed members, and that should have been the end of it.

THE END.

 

[sstchur]

Now that we are on the subject of where the base clamps come from. Do you really have a 8800 or a 5800? Other than the base clamps and tensioner they are not exactly the same machine for a $950 difference in price.

DD beat me to it, but yeah, mine is a 5800 with 8800 base clamps. We (I don't know if it was DD or me) nicknamed it "Baby 8800" which I thought was extremely clever, and it stuck (at least for us!)

If I hadn't already had a 6004, I would have bought the 8800. Given that I did have the 6004, I opted to go the "Baby 8800" route.

You used the term "heart of the machine" in an earlier comment. This is one case where I truly believe that that is true. The "heart" of the 8800 as compared to the 5800 really is the SA clamps, I believe.

I agree with DD that there is relatively little value in the number pad.

 

[sstchur]

Hey and for the record, I like Lakers. He's a good guy. We've had many conversations on email and he's a very knowledgeable guy and I respect his opinion.

We're just coming from different perspectives on this one, that's all.

No hard feelings, honestly.

 

[Lakers4Life]

Hey and for the record, I like Lakers. He's a good guy. We've had many conversations on email and he's a very knowledgeable guy and I respect his opinion.

We're just coming from different perspectives on this one, that's all.

No hard feelings, honestly.

Same here. I'll agree to dis-agree on persepctives.

BTW DD, I think you mean QA clamps not SA Clamps. From your previous Stream you had QA clamps on your machine.

 

[sstchur]

Same here. I'll agree to dis-agree on persepctives.

BTW DD, I think you mean QA clamps not SA Clamps. From your previous Stream you had QA clamps on your machine.

Oh, which one of us were you asking when you asked "Do you really have an 8800 or a 5800?"

I thought you were asking me (and I think DD thought you were asking me too), as his reply was an accurate reply, assuming he were answering for me.

DD has a 5800 unmodified. I have a 5800 with 6004/8800 base clamps (they are the same -- I have that on good authority).

One of us (either DD or me, or maybe both) nicknamed this combo (5800 with SA bases) as the "Baby 8800"

Hopefully that makes sense.

 

[diredesire]

Oh, which one of us were you asking when you asked "Do you really have an 8800 or a 5800?"

I thought you were asking me (and I think DD thought you were asking me too), as his reply was an accurate reply, assuming he were answering for me.

DD has a 5800 unmodified. I have a 5800 with 6004/8800 base clamps (they are the same -- I have that on good authority).

One of us (either DD or me, or maybe both) nicknamed this combo (5800 with SA bases) as the "Baby 8800"

Hopefully that makes sense.

Yeah, my bad, I was answering for sstchur. I definitely have QA clamps... and I've thought long and hard about the upgrade

 

[Lakers4Life]

SO both of you have the same machine just different base clamps. I don't know why Gamma does not include the SA clamps on the 5800, but that would probably drive the price up. I recall a few years back when Brett was working at Gamma. He offered the SA clamps upgrade for $200 with the purchase of a 5003 or 5800. I don't know if John will do the same deal.

 

[sstchur]

SO both of you have the same machine just different base clamps. I don't know why Gamma does not include the SA clamps on the 5800, but that would probably drive the price up. I recall a few years back when Brett was working at Gamma. He offered the SA clamps upgrade for $200 with the purchase of a 5003 or 5800. I don't know if John will do the same deal.

I had never heard of that offering, but if they do it, it's a GREAT deal.

 

[Lakers4Life]

It's a shame to pay that much money for that machine and skimp on the base clamps.

 

[diredesire]

SO both of you have the same machine just different base clamps. I don't know why Gamma does not include the SA clamps on the 5800, but that would probably drive the price up. I recall a few years back when Brett was working at Gamma. He offered the SA clamps upgrade for $200 with the purchase of a 5003 or 5800. I don't know if John will do the same deal.

Yeah, I'd have taken that in a heartbeat

I think the reason they don't include them is simply to keep a reasonable differentiator between the 5800 and the 8800. The only difference AFAIK would be the keypad. I can't see anyone paying a few hundred extra just so they can key in the tension. The +1/-1 and +0.1/-0.1 are extremely fast to use.

What I DON'T understand, though, is that they have the high end mounting and clamps on the 6004, which IMHO shouldn't even be a competitor to the 5800. That's one discontinuity in the Gamma line up that i never understood.

With that said, though, I'm very happy with the improvements they've brought to the table for their mid-range line. I spoke with John and he confirmed the controls are the same between the X-ELS/*ELS models and the higher end ELS machines. Obviously the tensioning head/motor is different, but that's not necessarily a bad thing (considering how much string is required for the *800ELS machines.

We're so far off the topic of the OP by now.... sorry g_desilva :twisted: