Had my first real tennis lesson today (MTM)

[Curiosity]

Thanks FX. I'll keep going I guess. However I can never seem to understand exactly what he is saying.

You are exactly right about the frustration. It just all felt terrible. And of course my elbow did not feel good at all. Though that is probably the racket and strings.

On some it felt like my shoulder was "dropping" and that I was lazy. Is that supposed to happen?

You're definitely on your way. But now for the drill sergeant part:

You understood what I was saying, that bit about flipping the hand to palm up as you go. You just ignored it. Laugh. It was key to the experiment to get the feel. It will become part of your stroke....but you get to leave the table at home, don't need it on the court....

Flipping your hand to palm up WASN'T OPTIONAL in the Table Top experiment! It was an essential part of what you need to do to get the ESR (get your upper arm to rotate back in your should joint. Don't think about ESR or joints. Just do the Hand on the Table thing as described. Please. As written. Ten times. Laugh.

You did get your elbow coming through, but the "hard way." That's much better than nothing, but isn't going to give you the glorious forehand. If you do the Table Top as described you'll get the full feeling. (If your tables seem low then use a higher kitchen counter-top?). Don't bother even reading the "what to do next" bit's in my last post until you actually do the Table Top Experiment as described....when you've done it right, you'll get the feeling. When you get the feeling you can take it to the court and you can add the proper TAKE BACK to set up the ESR pull through, the full Table Top......

If you want to understand why it is called, variously "external shoulder rotation (ESR)" or "external rotation of the upper arm," then do this: As you do the Table Top Experiment (INCLUDING FLIPPING YOUR HAND TO PALM UP, but not moving the hand from the spot, laugh) take your off arm hand, left hand, and squeeze your upper hitting arm high up with your finger tips until you can feel the bone. Keep that squeeze. Do the Table Top rotation as described. You will FEEL your upper arm bone rotating inside the mass of muscle as you do the "rotate your UB, don't let the hand move forward, rotate the hand to palm up in place as you rotate." That rotation back of the bone is a NON-TRIVIAL part of getting your shoulder ready for the forward/outward swing of the racquet and getting the racquet to flip back into big lag!!!

_______

As for shoulder drooping, not a problem. Even the tennis gods do it.


Let me know when you have followed the Table Top Experiment as described, (he wrote as he reaches for a double vodka and a xanax.....)

 

[Curiosity]

Thanks FX. I'll keep going I guess. However I can never seem to understand exactly what he is saying.

"don't move your hand from the spot, just rotate your forearm to flip your hand to palm up."

I almost fell out of my chair laughing: Shroud, that was not a challenge! It didn't mean "flip your hand to palm up only if you have to!"

This is actually fun, but it could be easier. You are so close. You won't have any trouble doing "The Full Table Top" and then adding the Take Back and Ready bits. Just stick with it. It's worth the trouble. But don't innovate! Follow directions! If they are bad, blame me later! Laugh.

 

[Shroud]

Good to see. You are DEFINITELY pulling the elbow through most of the time, always when the ball comes back at a medium height and a bit right of your body. Happy me. If you ever doubt you're doing the ESR bit, just repeat "the counter top" experiment and make sure you get that feeling when you are actually swinging the racquet.

But to get the full feeling, you need now to learn in the back swing preparation bits, the setup that induces much more racquet head lag back and down as you launch the forward swing of your hand, the

(You will find that doing these actually makes hitting the ball fast and accurately EASIER, but it may take a day or two.)

The back swing: Now that you can pull the elbow through (do ESR), you will want to change your back swing actions. It isn't so difficult. It will bring you closer to the Table Top stretched-shoulder feeling, and will make a fast racquet head and good aim easier. It provides the 'payoff' for learning to pull the elbow through (ESR). You've learned that. Now for the gold! Laugh.

I've watched your backswing carefully. What you currently do is fine, right up until your racquet's head is up at its highest point, just back a bit from the plane of your right side, the string-bed facing the sidelines, approx. It is what you do next that you'll change: Instead of continuing back and down in a loop, you'll just take the racquet down by lowering your elbow, pulling your elbow down and back towards your right side, as in "down toward the sideline, down until it is parallel with the court surface" and you don't need to swing it down (though you will learn to...), but can just lower it. It is EXACTLY the equivalent of "lowering your hitting hand until it is palm-down on a spot on the waist-high table top"!

You'll be essentially just lowering the racquet into the right position to do the ESR forward swing. Keep the racquet tilted to the left of your hand, your thumb, a bit, just by cocking your wrist a bit toward your thumb. (You can get that tilt early in your take back and keep it through to the forward swing. You'll learn that automatically.)

Soooo, you've got your upper arm slightly farther back than your body, and slightly behind the plane of your chest, because you lowered the racquet head by pulling your elbow down and back!

The racquet is parallel to the court surface, your forearm is a bit farther back toward the back fence than your upper arm. The racquet face is closed, and the racquet is tilted a bit netward relative to your hand, a small angle.

You're ready to swing. Here's what you do as you start the swing, the ESR, the pull through of the racquet, as you "launch," as I call it:

You start your shoulders/UB/torso rotating forward (perhaps aided by pulling in your swinging left arm!). Don't let your hand leave it's position (on the imaginary table...)! Instead, just extend your wrist up a tiny amount until you feel your forearm muscles are stretched, catching the weight. As you FEEL your UB rotation forcing your upper arm out and forward ROTATE YOUR FOREARM AS IF YOU WERE FLIPPING YOUR PALM UP (well, halfway up, laugh) ON THAT TABLE TOP. The racquet will flip back, "be left behind," you're forearm and hand will go forward and outward toward the point where you expect to contact the ball: When you feel you can't push your hand/wrist any farther toward that point, just keep pulling your hand up and leftward on the arc you already started, so that the racquet head can follow to where your hand was (approximately) and hit the ball! (Almost ALL the power of your hit will come from that instant when you pull up and left and the racquet head pivots out to the ball....with all your forearm and shoulder muscles stretched. You'll pronate/ISR into the hit as your brain tells you to, it's automatic. You don't have to think about it.)

You won't believe how easy this whole sequence is, now that you know how to pull your elbow through a la The Table Top. It's a lot of words, but a very quick simple sequence: Lower the racquet by pulling your elbow down and back until the racquet's in the position described. Start your UB rotation without letting your hand come forward at first, doing "the palm flip." Push/swing your palm out to the expected point of contact. Pull your hand (swing your forearm) up and left. Let the racquet head hit the ball. It becomes exactly "push your hand out to the expected point of contact, then let the racquet head go where your hand was as you swing up and left."

You've already DONE the hard-to-get bit, ESR, AKA the table top palm flip. The parts I describe are the easy pay off. You can watch super slo mo vids of Djokovic or Fed that I provided at the bottom of #274, in order to see what my words describe. Trust me, you're on your way. What stick-to-it-iveness! (If anything above is unclear, don't hesitate to ask for clarification.)

I did the table top 10 times. My shoulder is sore now.

Anyhow i still dont get why I would get my racket parallel with palm down and then turn the palm up? SO the strings that hit the ball are pointing to the sky??

Yes I did take the palm up thing as a challenge.

 

[Topspin Shot]

Shroud, I'd try to help you with this ESR thing and tell you whether it's worth doing or not, but I have no idea what Curiosity's talking about.

 

[Shroud]

Shroud, I'd try to help you with this ESR thing and tell you whether it's worth doing or not, but I have no idea what Curiosity's talking about.

Lol. If you don't then I doomed!

Nice serves by the way!

 

[Curiosity]

I did the table top 10 times. My shoulder is sore now.

Anyhow i still dont get why I would get my racket parallel with palm down and then turn the palm up? SO the strings that hit the ball are pointing to the sky??

Yes I did take the palm up thing as a challenge.

You did the table top thing 10 times. I assume, then, that you reached the point each time where:
-Your hand was in the original spot.
-Your upper body had rotated 90 degrees left from facing the table.
-Your palm was facing up, not down.
-Your hitting elbow had naturally moved from somewhat right to somewhat left, had "pulled through."

If you did all that, good. You SHOULD have felt tension in the front muscles of your shoulder. You should have seen how the described motions force your hitting elbow forward of your hitting hand. You should be able to understand why the woman in the picture I cited near the bottom of post #274 (and toly reposted) looks the way she does. She's done the Table Top motion, which you know now, because you said you did it.

When you have done that motion as I described it, you will have done ESR. You can't SEE the upper arm bone rotate back. It does. I described in post #301 how you can feel it if you want as it happens, while you're doing the Table Top Experiment. It is key to the modern forehand.

But still you ask me what is ESR?
It is the rotation of the upper arm bone backwards (clockwise as you look down at your arm) which stretches the appropriate muscles for what comes next.
It occurs if you do the sequence I described in the Table Top Experiment.

Let me ask you: Given the previous two sentences, what on earth is there left to understand? What part of those two sentences is unclear? You can either do the motions of the Table Top bit, and take my word for it that the entire motion produces the needed ESR, among other things. OR you take my my definition given four lines above this one. What more could be needed? I get it: You can't see the arm bone rotating. I already told you how to FEEL the arm bone rotating by pinching the upper arm with the off hand as you do the Table Top, if you can't take my word for it that the upper arm is externally rotating in the shoulder joint, a motion called ESR by everyone who needs a short concise term.

WHY FLIP THE PALM UP in the Table Top bit? To make sure that, if you follow the instructions, you'll get the feeling of making the motion that you will need to perform when your upper body rotation to start the forehand makes your upper arm swing out and forward. What Fed does in slo mo. What can I say.

WHAT HAPPENS when you do the motion described in post #297? Do your strings go up to face the sky? NO. That was what your palm did in #274, for learning. When you follow #297 by itself, and match what it says to what you see the pros in the videos doing, you'll find that because you have a racquet in your hand, and because the actions described in #297 lead to the racquet getting flipped back, the string bed will only be partially open as you push your hand out to the expected point of contact. Again, watch the videos I linked.

WHY WILL YOU take back your racquet to a strings facing down position as described, and then flip the racquet as described in #297 once your shoulders are rotating and your upper arm is being pulled forward? Because THAT MOVE WILL GET YOUR RACQUET VERY WELL LAGGED, get YOUR SHOULDER, FOREARM, AND AND WRIST STRETCHED IN the proper way to give you maximum speed and control in the rest of the swing, and position your hand, wrist, and forearm properly to push out to the spot at which you anticipate you'll contact the ball. You ask too much "why?" Too much? Yes. Only by doing the thing can you really understand it, and only in retrospect.

You skip so many instructions that they don't benefit you. If you really went to the Fed, Nadal, or Djoker videos attached to #274, and looked closely ....and in super slo mo!....at the motions of Fed's (for example) motions in the forehand, what he actually does from the moment his hand/racquet hit their low point and his body starts rotating forward, you would SEE EVERYTHING I've described. It is all right there. And it matches the words of post #297. And it matches what Nadal does. And what Djoker does. And what my usual hitting partner does. And you are prepared to understand what you are seeing in that video, because you already have the FEELING and knowledge of what he, Rafa, Djoker, and most others do as their actual stroke begins, their UB starts rotating, with the racquet in the lowered position described in #297.

Do not run various posts together. Deal with one #274. Learn it. Deal with #297 by itself. Try and do what it says. Then go and look patiently at the three player slow motion videos linked in #274. They do what every major training center teaches 14-year-old boys to do these days ('if they have potential'.....). It's the standard stroke, though you get to choose straight arm or bent elbow versions: They only differ trivially in ways I won't go into. To those who say "oh, they're so different" I say bull. I can hit either way. Choose.

There really isn't more advice I can give, is there? Is it worth, oh, say two hours of careful reading and video watching, three or four nights in a row? To get the forehand you'll hit for the rest of your life? Well, you tell me. I spent much more time than that learning the things. I probably spent that much time in comment writing. You certainly have the time to re-read #274 and #297, going back to the linked videos at the bottom of #274....many many times. Patiently. My words in #274 and #297 should help you figure out what you are seeing. Until you get what all three guys are doing to set up and launch their forehands, what their forehand mechanics have in common, keep checking the words against what you SEE. They do the same essential things, flourishes aside. I've described the essentials carefully. You have the videos. There is nothing stopping you from going back to each until you see what they do, and doing it (at your own level!) yourself.

I now have a written record for myself that is sufficiently complete for my uses. Whether you find it useful to you is up to how carefully you take each bit by itself, stepwise, in order, and how carefully you look at the videos to determine whether the words and the actions of the players' arms, hands, racquets, shoulders....match reasonably well. Be patient. This stuff just isn't that mysterious. The fact that local 'coaches' don't teach it on demand is pathetic. The contemporary men's forehand isn't harder to hit ONCE YOU LEARN IT than the older version. It is actually easier, especially when hitting very fast incoming balls, or odd bouncers. It just feels different, and eventually feels like "why didn't I learn this sooner." Fun. I wouldn't tell you that if it wasn't my own actually experience, the "easier once you learn it" part.

Keep at it, if you wish. The top four pros aren't the only guys that hit this form. Thousands and thousands of players do. Anyway, it's up to you. If you ask your 'coach' to teach you this stroke, but he can't, he's incompetent. It really is that simple. Just say "I want to learn the "pull through the elbow" ESR forehand in the style of current pros, but at my speed." If they can't do it, they don't know it. If they don't know it, they are kiddie coaches or flim-flam artists. If they say "you aren't good enough to learn it," they're really saying "well, I don't really know how they do it, but I can't tell you that." It doesn't take being "really good" to learn it. Call their bluff.

 

[Topspin Shot]

Lol. If you don't then I doomed!

Nice serves by the way!

Thanks. What are you trying with this ESR?

 

[Shroud]

Thanks. What are you trying with this ESR?

I am just trying to hit a great forehand. Thats all.

Curiosity is at least offering things to do to that end, even if I can't quite grasp it though I think I am getting there.

I should be talking to my coach who did improve my forehand but that just seemed to make the stroke more consistent. It is doubtful it would ever become the weapon I would like. And if I did bring it up I doubt I would get much I could digest. He wont even talk about grips or take back, etc. I just do the infinity symbol and that works to make me hit better but it leads to a loopy lendl take back because of how off my ready position is. Plus that technique really seems to lead to an eastern grip (same with curiosity too). Ugh I suck with that grip, and then I would have to change grips on the bh...

I am normally a positive person but this is kicking my ***. 14 year old boys can pick this up easy.

 

[Curiosity]

I am just trying to hit a great forehand. Thats all.

Curiosity is at least offering things to do to that end, even if I can't quite grasp it though I think I am getting there.

I should be talking to my coach who did improve my forehand but that just seemed to make the stroke more consistent. It is doubtful it would ever become the weapon I would like. And if I did bring it up I doubt I would get much I could digest. He wont even talk about grips or take back, etc. I just do the infinity symbol and that works to make me hit better but it leads to a loopy lendl take back because of how off my ready position is. Plus that technique really seems to lead to an eastern grip (same with curiosity too). Ugh I suck with that grip, and then I would have to change grips on the bh...

I am normally a positive person but this is kicking my ***. 14 year old boys can pick this up easy.

Edit: I ignored the grip thing: You can hit the the forehand described with an eastern, semi-western, or western. You can't hit it well with an extreme western, and even a full western is not the best. There is a view that using a full western is the kiss of death. Why? It makes low balls tough, but also makes hitting short balls difficult on the run. Changing grips is easy, re your backhand. If you watch the Djoker video I linked, you'll even see him shift his grip one-handed (not a helping hand on the frame). It's that easy.

There's an ancient greek saying, "hasten slowly." Let go of the frustration. There is no rush to get the basics described down pat. The whole thing is simpler than it seems, but there are just definite things you have to do to go to the...I have to laugh....modern "pull through the elbow, external upper arm rotation as you begin forward upper body rotation" forehand. Laugh again. Words.

It might interest you to know that one of the first coaches teaching this forehand was Vic Braden, long ago. But he didn't teach it to everyone, didn't put it in his popular books, because, well, who knows?

The ESR part, the pull through of the elbow, the letting the UB, the shoulder, lead the hit "leaving the racquet behind, to be pulled forward toward the ball, (the early version, or semi-Sharapova version), came first. The contemporary take back and lowering of the racquet, which you can see in the Fed and Nadal videos, came a bit later.

The full contemporary version added this bit, which I personally think is big: Instead of just pulling the racquet's grip forward TOWARD THE BALL (having, laugh, done the ESR/"pull the shoulder through" bit)...good players today pull the racquet handle (and of course, the hand!) out to where they EXPECT to contact the ball. (This is crystal clear in the Fed video linked, and in the Nadal video. It is more difficult to see in the Djoker video because he's more old school, takes the racquet back farther, pulls forward on a shallower angle. (Edit: In his practice hits. Under pressure in a match he shortens the back swing and it looks more like Fed's, very quickly lowering the racquet and launching.) Put another way, Djoker's forehand is noticeably less compact. But he still does all the elements of the others.) I've had it described to me verbally, though I've never seen a good description in print of the "push out to where they expect to contact the ball."

[Note for those who think the bent elbow and straight arm forehands are much different in their ESR: Just do the Table Top Experiment in #274, but with a straight arm. You'll get just the same shoulder tension, ESR, as you do performing the instructions with a bent arm. You can't see the elbow rotate and come through, because it rotates in place, doesn't have to move laterally.]

That pull out to where they expect to contact the ball requires a bit of getting used to, letting your arm and shoulder get used to the pulling of the grip, the hand, out more toward the sidelines. It doesn't take long to get used to.

The advantages of that "even farther pull outward, not just forward, are these: That action puts your hand in the exact direction you want the racquet head to go, so when your hand inevitably pulls off and up to the left, the racquet head goes exactly to the place the hand "almost got to." I can't describe how much easier it makes getting the racquet head onto a fast incoming ball. If you watch the Fed and Rafa videos linked in #274 carefully, you'll see the racquet head go to the spot their hitting hand was reaching toward milleseconds before. It makes good contact easier. Errors, framing, goes down.

The next advantage that "out to where you expect to contact the ball" has is that it does stretch your shoulder, arm, and upper chest muscles just a bit more, which means you can get the racquet head going that much faster as it pivots to the ball when you pull your hand up and left: Watch any of the slow mo videos I linked: You will easily be able to see the "pulling out to the expected point of contact" rather than the old "just pull the grip out toward the ball." (This is VERY hard to see except in super slow motion. Lucky us to have it available.) The final benefit is that it makes topspin automatic if you start with a low racquet. Really.

Hitting a ball that surprisingly bounces very high? The method I described (and you can see the players use) in which you don't swing the racquet head way back, but instead lower it to the ready, lets you initiate the "pull the elbow through, push the hand out to that high expected contact point, then pull off fast" AT ANY TIME DURING THAT LOWERING. Easy. Try that with your big loop back swing!

Sometimes I laugh at this fact, apparent even in threads here (remember the thread "which pro 1HBH is best to copy?"): Lots of people said "you shouldn't try to copy the pro's strokes." OK. So what do people on the boards say when describing the service motion they're trying to achieve? "I'm trying to serve more like Federer" or "I'm trying to serve more like"-and their favorite player. What makes a pro's serve, the fastest, most difficult, and complex stroke the player hits, somehow fit for folks to copy, BUT NOT THEIR f'g FOREHAND? I really don't get that.

Don't rush it. Why should you. Just read the two main posts now and then, #274 and #297, and especially look at the videos, asking yourself "how does he do that? How does he get from that position of the racquet just before he begins UB rotation...to the hit? What motions seem key?" I really think you'll get it. It's no big deal, and it's worth the trouble. You can hit like a mini-Federer (or Djokovic). You won't be as good, fast, etc., but you'll have a stroke that works very well, is more compact, lets you generate topspin easily if you want it, hit flat if you want, and hit fast more easily.

In case I get run over by a bus tomorrow, I'll point out that the extent of racquet head lag back, and depth the racquet head goes down, as you initially pull forward... are very easy to adjust in this swing just before you launch forward: To increase lag backward, just start with your racquet tilted a little more toward the net relative to your hand just before launch (the racquet face is still flat, parallel to the court but just is slid to the left a bit by bending your wrist a bit more toward your thumb, just before UB rotation. To get it to go lower in the lag, just start with the racquet slightly more vertical at the instant before UB rotation, slightly less parallel to the court surface. (This last bit is great if you suddenly see you have to hit a high ball...you get the racquet head to lag lower so you can quickly follow a steeper path up to the ball.)

Enough. I'm enthusiastic about the thing. What is difficult is to figure out WHAT THEY DO merely by watching the videos. I've tried to help with that. Once you see, know, what they do, doing it really isn't that hard. Or such was my experience, and I'm no racquet wizard.

Hasten slowly. Don't get frustrated. Just come back to the stuff in a few days, or next weekend. Let the words and the video watching interact, support each other. Life is short, but it ain't so short you have to master new things in one week! If nothing else, you'll end up understanding how Federer, Nadal, and Djokovic hit their forehand, though you won't know how they can do it so f'g well.....

 

[Curiosity]

ESR: Focusing on one particular benefit of ESR, external rotation of the upper arm bone in the shoulder joint:

Rather than a long post on several points, I thought it might be useful to focus on one specific fact that makes it valuable to learn about and make use of ESR in the tennis forehand. It applies to the forehand for all good players, and to the use of the left hand (for right-handed players) in the two-handed backhand. (I'll just consider the forehand aspect here.)

The one specific point about ESR I'll focus on is one of its two primary uses today in the advanced forehand: Accelerating the hitting arm at the beginning of the pro stroke. (The other primary use is setting up the ability to INTERNALLY rotate the shoulder, upper arm bone, into the hit.)

If, on your forehand backswing, you lower the racquet down to ready by pulling your hitting upper arm down and back until it is behind the front plane of the chest, and somewhat close to the side, perhaps within ten inches or so, THEN if you perform some ESR immediately as your upper body starts rotating to launch the forward swing, you'll get this very valuable benefit:

The upper body rotation will force the upper arm out and around, will power the arm's acceleration.

That bit of ESR causes your upper arm to lock at the shoulder. The upper arm is no longer free to move backward. If the UB rotates, the upper arm must come along.

Why does this matter? If you do a few experiments on your own you can prove the benefit to yourself.

First, standing in the middle of a room with your hitting arm straight and at your side, palm facing your leg, lift the arm out to the side a foot or so. Now using UB rotation or not, try to swing the upper arm around to the left fast. (The rest of the arm will come along, of course.)

Now repeat the process, but this time before you swing that straight arm that's been raised perhaps ten inches from your side, rotate the your hand clockwise (looking down at it) until the palm is facing nearly out to your right, arm still straight: Now rotate your upper body quickly to the the left, as you would do in a forehand.

If you shoulder is normal, the UB rotation should have forced your upper arm (and the rest of it....) to swing quite quickly around to the left. (In an actual forehand you'll use your "swinging muscles" as well shortly into the rotation.)

In other words, if you do at least some ESR immediately as you begin your upper body rotation to start the forehand swing, you get your UB's power to accelerate the upper arm, by far the heaviest part of the arm. Other muscles from the triceps to biceps will kick in early on an expert swing, but their work will be greatly reduced by the acceleration the UB provides via the locked shoulder.

Typically you can get much more acceleration this way than purely by using the muscles that swing the non-externally rotated upper arm around to the left. That is why the most consistent correlate of high racquet head velocity in a pro forehand is the speed of upper body rotation.

Well, I wonder, do the pros use this knowledge to arrange their forehand sequence?
Do they make sure that they pull the upper arm behind the plane of the chest and fairly close to the side before they start the forward rotation of their UB, and their swing?
Do they externally rotate their arm a bit immediately as their UB rotation starts? (And remember, to externally rotate a straight arm simply requires rotating the arm until the inside of the elbow is facing forward/outward a bit!)

With these simple facts and questions in mind, watch the Rafa forehands from the 5:10 minute mark to about the 7:30 mark. The lighting is good, the video is Super Slo-Motion, and the camera angle is favorable to see the arm and shoulder action.

Watch the upper hitting arm action, the elbow/arm rotation, and see if you get the message:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SOBdbgZD05U

Yes, all this applies even to the bent-arm player. And you can watch Federers upper arm action through the take back at
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GsHLxNBaakU beginning at the 9:15 minute mark. Keep the same question in mind. Does he get his upper arm well back and near his side before launching the swing with forward UB rotation? Why? (Rhetorical question.)

 

[Shroud]

ESR: Focusing on one particular benefit of ESR, external rotation of the upper arm bone in the shoulder joint:

Rather than a long post on several points, I thought it might be useful to focus on one specific fact that makes it valuable to learn about and make use of ESR in the tennis forehand. It applies to the forehand for all good players, and to the use of the left hand (for right-handed players) in the two-handed backhand. (I'll just consider the forehand aspect here.)

The one specific point about ESR I'll focus on is one of its two primary uses today in the advanced forehand: Accelerating the hitting arm at the beginning of the pro stroke. (The other primary use is setting up the ability to INTERNALLY rotate the shoulder, upper arm bone, into the hit.)

If, on your forehand backswing, you lower the racquet down to ready by pulling your hitting upper arm down and back until it is behind the front plane of the chest, and somewhat close to the side, perhaps within ten inches or so, THEN if you perform some ESR immediately as your upper body starts rotating to launch the forward swing, you'll get this very valuable benefit:

The upper body rotation will force the upper arm out and around, will power the arm's acceleration.

That bit of ESR causes your upper arm to lock at the shoulder. The upper arm is no longer free to move backward. If the UB rotates, the upper arm must come along.

Why does this matter? If you do a few experiments on your own you can prove the benefit to yourself.

First, standing in the middle of a room with your hitting arm straight and at your side, palm facing your leg, lift the arm out to the side a foot or so. Now using UB rotation or not, try to swing the upper arm around to the left fast. (The rest of the arm will come along, of course.)

Now repeat the process, but this time before you swing that straight arm that's been raised perhaps ten inches from your side, rotate the your hand clockwise (looking down at it) until the palm is facing nearly out to your right, arm still straight: Now rotate your upper body quickly to the the left, as you would do in a forehand.

If you shoulder is normal, the UB rotation should have forced your upper arm (and the rest of it....) to swing quite quickly around to the left. (In an actual forehand you'll use your "swinging muscles" as well shortly into the rotation.)

In other words, if you do at least some ESR immediately as you begin your upper body rotation to start the forehand swing, you get your UB's power to accelerate the upper arm, by far the heaviest part of the arm. Other muscles from the triceps to biceps will kick in early on an expert swing, but their work will be greatly reduced by the acceleration the UB provides via the locked shoulder.

Typically you can get much more acceleration this way than purely by using the muscles that swing the non-externally rotated upper arm around to the left. That is why the most consistent correlate of high racquet head velocity in a pro forehand is the speed of upper body rotation.

Well, I wonder, do the pros use this knowledge to arrange their forehand sequence?
Do they make sure that they pull the upper arm behind the plane of the chest and fairly close to the side before they start the forward rotation of their UB, and their swing?
Do they externally rotate their arm a bit immediately as their UB rotation starts? (And remember, to externally rotate a straight arm simply requires rotating the arm until the inside of the elbow is facing forward/outward a bit!)

With these simple facts and questions in mind, watch the Rafa forehands from the 5:10 minute mark to about the 7:30 mark. The lighting is good, the video is Super Slo-Motion, and the camera angle is favorable to see the arm and shoulder action.

Watch the upper hitting arm action, the elbow/arm rotation, and see if you get the message:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SOBdbgZD05U

Yes, all this applies even to the bent-arm player. And you can watch Federers upper arm action through the take back at
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GsHLxNBaakU beginning at the 9:15 minute mark. Keep the same question in mind. Does he get his upper arm well back and near his side before launching the swing with forward UB rotation? Why? (Rhetorical question.)

Sorry. This is still lost on me. To me at this point ESR is just turning the palm up to keep it in place on a counter top. Doing this swing described in this post it seemed that the speed of the arm was about the same as when I rotated the palm.

Sorry. I really am trying.

I have been shadow swinging and its really hard on my wrist. There is a weird part after the racket drops and accelerates that I think is hurting it. So I have been playing around looking at forehands and Henin's take back seems to be much easier on the wrist and more compact than Feds. I seem to swing a bit faster and its low takeback has a better chance of keeping the racket from wondering way behind my body.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O6IDyyc_4ig

The tip about throwing the hand to the contact point helped and i really had to just relax the wrist totally.

I should get a chance to hit on wed. Hopefully things will not go flying out the window when the ball is introduced.

 

[Curiosity]

Sorry. This is still lost on me. To me at this point ESR is just turning the palm up to keep it in place on a counter top. Doing this swing described in this post it seemed that the speed of the arm was about the same as when I rotated the palm.

Sorry. I really am trying.

I have been shadow swinging and its really hard on my wrist. There is a weird part after the racket drops and accelerates that I think is hurting it. .....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O6IDyyc_4ig

The tip about throwing the hand to the contact point helped and i really had to just relax the wrist totally.

I should get a chance to hit on wed. Hopefully things will not go flying out the window when the ball is introduced.

Do you remember some posts ago when I said (a few times...) "when you do the external rotation of the arm as you begin the swing, make sure to catch the weight of the racquet on your large forearm muscles, not on your wrist." I even noted "this is non-trivial." I can go back and look for the several times I said that. I can only describe it: Just as you start to flip the racquet back (which happens as you pull the elbow through as your UB starts rotating forward, and your hand starts forward), you seek (it becomes automatic quickly) to 'catch' the weight on those big forearm muscles, let it stretch those muscles, while letting the wrist just relax. Very quickly the racquet's weight as you pull forward and out forces your wrist back, but without discomfort.

Good about the "hand out to the expected contact point.

No rush.

I'll tell you what is just pathetic in this: Every aspect of this swing could be taught to you by a good coach in person, and in one or two hours. It is just pathetic that in the U.S. in many locations a person can't find a good coach and just say "here's what I want to learn," and be taught it. I'm usually just west of Philadelphia. When I'm in CA, I'm usually in Del Mar/SD, and rarely.

Did you actually watch the Fed and Rafa slo-mo videos carefully, trying to match my words to what you saw them do? Or maybe Djoker if the bent elbow thing would help?

Some guy came on another thread just to ask me "does this brief video clip show doing ESR in the forehand?" To which I answered "yes." It was a clip of Serena from a good angle. I'm going to go find that link for you. I'll come back and edit it in here: OK, it ways out-of-the-blue on the long running current "oscar wegner lesson" threat. They were bickering about some small point on the forehand, and I joked "it's much less important than learning what ESR is and how to use it. So at post #297



Default
"Quote:
Originally Posted by Curiosity View Post
This ESR bit is much more important.

Hey Curiosity: Am I correct in interpreting the "pulling the elbow through"/ESR that you mention as it happens here (at 2:32)? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BHkcG2Uo-SU#t=152
The video freezes right after the point where she starts the ESR, and then the line of the elbow coming thru, along with elbow starting to rotate, pointing down to the ground?"



So, anyway, that clip (which is a live link if you go to #297 of the "Oscar Wegner Tennis Lesson" thread and click it, really does give a good view of Serena going into ESR as she begins her forward swing.

Do you find it impossible to watch one of the slo-mo videos I posted at #274 and just stand there near your computer and try to mimic their actions? It can really help tremendously. Remember, it's slo-mo! laugh. You should be trying things fairly slo-mo yourself.

I'm actually surprised that you could do the Table Top thing and not get the feeling in your shoulder that you're after. And you also didn't get the most recent bit, the locking of the upper arm so it has to come forward if you do some external upper arm rotation as your upper arm gets back a la Rafa or Fed? Curious.

What is the nearest college to you that has decent tennis? You need an hour or two with a real f'g coach, not some hippie.

 

[Shroud]

Do you remember some posts ago when I said (a few times...) "when you do the external rotation of the arm as you begin the swing, make sure to catch the weight of the racquet on your large forearm muscles, not on your wrist." I even noted "this is non-trivial." I can go back and look for the several times I said that. I can only describe it: Just as you start to flip the racquet back, you seek (it becomes automatic quickly) to 'catch' the weight on those big forearm muscles, let it stretch those muscles, while letting the wrist just relax. Very quickly the racquet's weight as you pull forward and out forces your wrist back, but without discomfort.

Good about the "hand out to the expected contact point.

No rush.

I'll tell you what is just pathetic in this: Every aspect of this swing could be taught to you by a good coach in person, and in one or two hours. It is just pathetic that in the U.S. in many locations a person can't find a good coach and just say "here's what I want to learn," and be taught it. I'm usually just west of Philadelphia. When I'm in CA, I'm usually in Del Mar/SD, and rarely.

Did you actually watch the Fed and Rafa slo-mo videos carefully, trying to match my words to what you saw them do? Or maybe Djoker if the bent elbow thing would help?

Some guy came on another thread just to ask me "does this brief video clip show doing ESR in the forehand?" To which I answered "yes." It was a clip of Serena from a good angle. I'm going to go find that link for you. I'll come back and edit it in here:

Do you find it impossible to watch one of the slo-mo videos I posted at #274 and just stand there near your computer and try to mimic their actions? It can really help tremendously. Remember, it's slo-mo! laugh. I'll come back with the link.

saw that link. It was the russian guy. Dont speak russian.

I watched fed, nole, and even a bit of nadal.

I simply dont understand taking the weight of the racket on the forearms. It makes no sense to me.

All those take backs are too busy and the racket is up high going past the head. That will only lead to it going way back behind my body looping around to the left for 20 seconds, etc.

 

[Curiosity]

saw that link. It was the russian guy. Dont speak russian.

I watched fed, nole, and even a bit of nadal.

I simply dont understand taking the weight of the racket on the forearms. It makes no sense to me.

All those take backs are too busy and the racket is up high going past the head. That will only lead to it going way back behind my body looping around to the left for 20 seconds, etc.

The forearm bit: You can swing a racquet feeling the weight on a firmed wrist, or swing it feeling the weight, stress, on firmed forearm muscles, letting the wrist just be relaxed. This is true in any forehand, generically. If you try (gently) to achieve each way, you'll be able to. I'm sure what you currently tried is with a very firm wrist in the beginning.

Put another way, you can start to swing a racquet forward, say just an easy racquet-head-low forward motion, and you can either firm your wrist to bear the weight, or flex your forearm muscles to bear the weight. Try both. It's simple.

About the videos: Busy take backs? Fed? His take back is as pure as the driven snow. As for how high his hitting hand is as he takes it back, that is totally optional. Just take it back with a lower hand, but do the same things!

If you don't try to mimic them as they go through the slo mo forehands, it's hard to learn what they do, I suppose. Nothing they are doing, especially Fed, is physically difficult. It's technique, but not muscle.Haven't you ever watched somebody dance or play a sport, and just tried to copy their motions exactly?

So you saw the Russian guy (actually he's a Kazakh, but speaking Russian). Did you see the Serena clip insert? It was a very good angle to get "pulling the elbow through." I thought so anyway.

I'm back to thinking we ought to find you a real no-bull coach that can just show you this stuff and watch you do it (slo mo, 1/2 speed) and tell you what you are getting/not getting. I bet even THAT COLLEGE KID knows this stuff. Call him and ask him, specifically, if he knows what ESR or "pull the elbow through" on a forehand means, and if he can show you. Really.

Tell you what. I'm going to draft a bright intermediate at my most low-key club and see what, if anything, he gets out of the Table Top and a few photos/videos. Shouldn't be hard to find a guinea pig.

EDIT: Do you have a significant other or trusted tennis friend who could read the posts and see if they got a different meaning from the words, a sort of Table Top Experiment lab assistant?

Also, if this whole thread turns out to be yet another perverse Psychology experiment by the boffins at Cal Berkeley, I'm going to be really peeved. Laugh.

 

[Curiosity]

..........

All those take backs are too busy and the racket is up high going past the head. That will only lead to it going way back behind my body looping around to the left for 20 seconds, etc.

Fed isn't swinging the racquet back, so there's no chance of the racquet head going too far. He's basically lifting it back. In modern forehands the back swing is not about building speed, momentum, in the racquet head. It's just about positioning for what comes next, and useful in adjusting timing so that when it's time to hit, you're entering the actual forward motions without a hitch.

This "lift back, don't swing" is tied to the design of the modern swing. You time the lowering of the racquet to the height you want when you pull the trigger on the forward swing. You position the racquet so that you get lag when you start forward. You let the shoulder lead and power the initial swing, pulling the elbow through (ESR) as the upper arm is forced forward by the UB rotation. The lag and the ESR bits nullify the utility of building significant speed in the take back and initial downward swing of the racquet.

 

[Ash_Smith]

Again - just putting this back out there :twisted:

Step 1
Get into approx' this position

Step 2
Wait for the ball to be just in front of you and rip the **** out of it

Step 3
Win

 

[Curiosity]

Again - just putting this back out there :twisted:

Well, first I'll laugh, for obvious reasons.

But then about the picture: In that photo Fed has not begun his forward swing. When he starts his swing (but not yet the forward motion) he'll start his off arm swing out and left, which will first track the angle of the incoming ball, as he lowers his hitting upper arm until it is well back behind the chest's plane and lowers his racquet to parallel with the plane of the court. At the instant his timing super-computer tells him to, he'll simultaneously pull in his off arm, start his UB rotating forward, and put his instantly-straightened hitting arm into "external shoulder rotation" by allowing his arm to rotate clockwise as the UB forces the arm out and forward. None of this is theoretical. It can be seen in the thousands of super slo-motion videos available.

With that said, I'll note that so many players are confused by the sight of the back swing, and by the action out near the ball subsequently, that they don't comprehend that the important actions occur from the instant of forward UB rotation to the instant before the hit. Because most intermediate players start with a forehand that uses a loopy back swing as the time to start generating velocity in the racquet head, they simply can't conceive that the take-back and racquet lowering performed by Fed (or Rafa) is not a significant contributor to the racquet head's velocity out through contact. As redundant (to the videos) support for that statement, I'll point out that the racquet head's last motion as the hitting hand starts forward, is in a slight BACKWARD motion as it enters lag. (In other words: At that instant any racquet head velocity in the forward direction would be completely dissipated.) It just doesn't compute for them. Yet essentially all the racquet head speed is created by the speed (and power) of Fed's (Rafa's) UB rotation, leveraged by initial locking of the upper arm at the shoulder joint via ESR in the start, then boosted by various muscles, and leveraged by the very fast pull-off, racquet pivot, that forces racquet head acceleration immediately into the hit, whether supplemented or not-so-much just into contact by ISR, internal shoulder rotation. The ITF has published plenty of studies on this, and I'm sure you've seen them.

Now I can laugh again. I'm fairly sure that in this photo Fed has just spotted a charging elephant, and has prepared his response! Probably he would succeed in freezing the elephant's charge.

 

[Ash_Smith]

^^^Yes, you are right that he hasn't yet started his forward swing - that is exactly my point to Shroud - get the set up right and if he's meeting the ball out in front he will probably find the other stuff starts to look after itself - at least enough to improve his forehand to the level he is looking to get to at this stage.

 

[Curiosity]

^^^Yes, you are right that he hasn't yet started his forward swing - that is exactly my point to Shroud - get the set up right and if he's meeting the ball out in front he will probably find the other stuff starts to look after itself - at least enough to improve his forehand to the level he is looking to get to at this stage.

First, I agree with your idea to an extent. However, I think you may have missed Shroud's comment two posts ago, #313, about how Fed' take-back is "too busy" for Shroud, and would lead to some sort of way-back flight of his racquet head. Laugh. (I'm not laugh at Shroud, BTW, but at the difficulty of conveying something when not on the court with him. I'm starting to feel like Ahab in mad pursuit of the White Whale. I can imagine you saying, many posts ago, "Look, there goes Ahab. The crew is doomed!")

I actually think he's going to piece together an improved forehand, but I utterly do not understand why many don't understand the nature and role of ESR, even if just intuitively from watching the strokes of pros. Some really get it. Some just don't get it at all. Even after the Table Top Experiment of post #274. BTW, I would be amused, appreciative, if you would read that post, try the experiment, and tell me if it does or doesn't get you to ESR, introduce the motion and feeling. I'm trying it out on a local intermediate in about two hours.

 

[Ash_Smith]

^^^If try your experiment with the table top and then go on court and say to your player "how can you recreate that feeling in your shoulder when you start your swing" then you're probably doing a decent job - you might not even need to do the table top experiment if the player you're working with has experience of doing another action that involves that movement or you can get them to mimic an action they are familiar with which uses that shoulder movement - again that's good coaching.

To be honest if you said that to Shroud right from the beginning he may have got your meaning by now - but there were lot of essay length posts which introduced a lot of (excuse this for want of a better term) "waffle" into proceedings )

 

[Curiosity]

^^^If try your experiment with the table top and then go on court and say to your player "how can you recreate that feeling in your shoulder when you start your swing" then you're probably doing a decent job - you might not even need to do the table top experiment if the player you're working with has experience of doing another action that involves that movement or you can get them to mimic an action they are familiar with which uses that shoulder movement - again that's good coaching.

To be honest if you said that to Shroud right from the beginning he may have got your meaning by now - but there were lot of essay length posts which introduced a lot of (excuse this for want of a better term) "waffle" into proceedings )

You don't know how much I wish I had come up with the Table Top Experiment from the get go. Only after the lengthy detailed bits didn't work did I think up the thing. Yes, I agree with you completely. In posts subsequent to that I even said, "forget all the previous stuff. Just go back to post #274, learn the feeling, then go to #297 once you get it, and look at the videos linked in #274. You're running all the posts together in your head," or words similar to that. Yes. Agree. I'm here to learn.

 

[Gyswandir]

@Curiosity: have been following this thread with interest. While I don't always get 100% of your long posts, I get what you try to say. However, I think it would be really helpful if you use some visual cues to help Shroud understand.
May I suggest referencing the Fed pics in Speed's blog. While I don't agree with him, as far as I know, they're the most detailed set of pics of his swing.
http://blog.tennisspeed.com/2011/12/roadmap-to-hall-of-fame-forehand-part-3.html

 

[Curiosity]

@Curiosity: have been following this thread with interest. While I don't always get 100% of your long posts, I get what you try to say. However, I think it would be really helpful if you use some visual cues to help Shroud understand.
May I suggest referencing the Fed pics in Speed's blog. While I don't agree with him, as far as I know, they're the most detailed set of pics of his swing.
http://blog.tennisspeed.com/2011/12/roadmap-to-hall-of-fame-forehand-part-3.html

Thanks. Yes, I agree with your visuals comment. That was a very good read. I'm not very familiar with tennis-on-the-web. That blog is interesting.

I especially liked this analysis, a good way down the post:

"And perhaps most importantly, Federer’s Wrist Extension at this stage also sets up another power-multiplying movement in his rotator cuff – i.e. his Wrist Extension at one end (distal) of his racquet arm means that External Rotation of his hitting shoulder is happening at the other end (proximal) of his racquet arm. And, this pronounced External Rotation provides the necessary counter-movement to increase – amplify –the forces generated by Internal Rotation of his rotator cuff that drives the racquet arm and racquet into impact."

I would prefer to think that the wrist extension prepares the way for a wrist-safe transition as as the combination of ESR and forward movement of the hand leads to the racquet's sudden lag. Picky, picky, I suppose....

Though I don't agree with some interpretations given in the article, the analysis is a step above the common run of analysis and the photos can definitely be useful. Thanks for the comment and link!

 

[Gyswandir]

Happy to help.

I also disagree with some of his conclusions, but in terms of visualization and depth, it is some of the best.

 

[Shroud]

Again - just putting this back out there :twisted:

I can't tell you Ash how much I loved seeing that. For me that made a ton of sense and didnt involve me tearing up my shoulder on a counter top!

Anyhow that was the first thing I tried. It didnt go so well. I think in my anticipation of crushing the ball, I kept going and the loopy loop take back took over. Then I am pretty sure I armed the hell out of the ball. HULK SMASH!

Also you may recall a thread I started about 3/4 shots and how I cant seem to do that with a loose arm forehand. So all in all it was a bust. I think a ball machine would help. I can set up in the right position and pause then hit. Against the wall well, I dont pause and the loopy loop comes back. Do you hit 100% every shot as suggested in your 3 step process?

The biggest crack up of all is that you both seem to think I know now what ESR is. HA. I have no clue and Gyswandir is correct some visual is sorely needed. Right now I think ESR is just turning up your palm. And secondly why would I want to feel pain/ tension everytime I hit a forehand?

SOmetimes on the table top I would feel tension, sometimes not at all. I thought I was doing the same thing each time but maybe not.

Hopefully I will hit tommorrow.

About the take back. If I do Feds its too easy for the racket to not be facing forward. If I do Henin's the racket is always forward till I swing. Sadly both work in shadow swinging, but we shall see tommorrow.

And C, please dont call my coach a hippy. On his behalf I still have some lessons left and I just told him I wanted to improve my forehand and hit biting topspin. I think he accomplished #1. I sure felt like I was hitting better. But with 3 lessons left maybe there are some changes coming? Not sure. I think he might argue that the things he had me do are very similar to the things here, at least I can see the connection I think.

 

[Topspin Shot]

I can make a short video on my cell phone tomorrow explaining what ESR is and how it applies to the forehand. I've never thought of it as the most important element, but I can try to clear some things up if you want.

 

[Shroud]

I can make a short video on my cell phone tomorrow explaining what ESR is and how it applies to the forehand. I've never thought of it as the most important element, but I can try to clear some things up if you want.

OMG that would be amazing. And not just for me. I amazed that this thread has had this many views so clearly there is something here that resonates. So a video would be MUCH appreciated.

 

[Curiosity]

I can't tell you Ash how much I loved seeing that. For me that made a ton of sense and didnt involve me tearing up my shoulder on a counter top!....The biggest crack up of all is that you both seem to think I know now what ESR is. HA......... SOmetimes on the table top I would feel tension, sometimes not at all. I thought I was doing the same thing each time but maybe not.

Hi Shroud,

I hope you'll forgive the "hippie" remark. He's probably got a plan, and it will all be good. You wouldn't believe how much personality-crushing (mine) I've had to do to present a reasonable face to a fellow tennis player, curbing the usual acerbic tongue. Laugh. Yes, I realize the crushing was not always successful....

I wouldn't blame the Table Top Experiment for any pain. I tried the Table Top on an unwitting friend. He wasn't harmed, and did get it, BUT I noticed he at first was trying to pull his shoulder back/in tightly as he rotated his upper body, essentially trying to rotate WITHOUT letting his elbow pull through, his upper arm bone rotate in the shoulder. HA! I've discovered what you were probably doing. No? Such is life. My directions were inadequately specific. Let your shoulder remain out to the side, relaxed, until the Table Top bit 'unrelaxes' it.

I would again thank Ash and Gyswandir for some helpful hints as to coaching, which may in the future benefit a few people who, blind to the obvious risks which a prudent man would never accept, ask me in-person for some help.

So here's what remains. Forget the rest, all the prior posts, except perhaps #274 and the Table Top. Peek at the all-caps SIDEARM THROW if you wish, but do, if you have time, skip down to the entries labelled 1 through 15 matching the 15 photo pairs in the link Gyswandir provided at Tennis Speed, http://blog.tennisspeed.com/2011/12/roadmap-to-hall-of-fame-forehand-part-3.html viewing the photos in the link side-by-side in a separate browser window.... If you don't read these comments I won't win the Free Trip to the South of France I've been working toward, so please do look at them, eventually...please? Laugh.

SIDEARM THROWING AND THE FIFTEEN PHOTOS:

You may have THROWN A BASEBALL SIDEARM at some point in life. Typically the sidearm motion involves taking the throwing arm and hand back at chest level, then rotating your upper body forward, letting the shoulder drag the elbow under and forward...with the forearm, hand, and ball lagging behind. (This stretches certain shoulder muscles, initiates external rotation of the upper arm bone in the shoulder.) You then power the throw finish by quickly straightening your arm a bit as you use the muscles of the shoulder's "rotator cuff" (in ESR) to "internally rotate the upper arm bone in the shoulder joint," (ISR)...and pronate your forearm as you release the ball: That sequence is approximately duplicated in a modern tennis forehand...kind of.

The sequence of actions causing ESR as you initiate the forward swing of a forehand creates a set of stretched muscles and advantageous arm positions which will allow you to swing/push out to the ball effectively. Just as in the sidearm pitch, you'll also be able to benefit from the ESR muscle stretching as you finally approach the instant before contacting the tennis ball. As you get close to contact you'll unwind the ESR by, surprise, contracting the stretched muscles as you internally rotate the upper arm bone in the shoulder joint. This is called ISR.

THE OVERALL SWING THAT TAKES ADVANTAGE OF THE ESR BIT:

Videos are nice, but a series of stills taken at an advantageous angle may make the phases of the modern forehand much clearer to you. Comment-poster Gyswandir was nice enough to point out a good sequence showing a Federer forehand in 15 sequential photos. They are well labelled by the blog that posted them. They may well make clearer to you the important steps of the forehand which are difficult to isolate when watching video, even slow motion video. You can read as much of the accompanying text as you want, but it's the photos that tell the story. (When you click on the link and are on the page, just scroll down a good bit until you come to the first photo. I would recommend ignoring the second photo in each pair, those of Hewitt.)

http://blog.tennisspeed.com/2011/12/...nd-part-3.html

I'll make brief comments that go with each of the fifteen photos, from a casual player point of view, not a hyper-technical standpoint, unless, laugh, you still call ESR hyper-technical:

1: Since you want to win points, recovering to a good ready position makes sense. It also makes your forehand more consistent if you can start from a standard position. Fed's is fairly relaxed. The blog's comments to this are straightforward. You may create your own idea of the best hand position on the racquet at the ready. No two people are the same.

2: As the blog poster points out, Fed raises his left elbow on the backswing, but not the right one. (The height varies, of course, with the the situation he's in. The backswing ('take-over...') shown is adequate. Once you get used to it you can take it back higher if that serves you, as he does in many match points. He's a pro, after all...)

3: In the backswing the left hand has to eventually part ways with the racquet, but it's good to take the left hand that far over, so that the off arm can help later in the swing. The racquet face is open and facing the sideline. (In my Table Top image, he's got his upper body facing the table, and he's ready to lower his hand to the table. His feet are well-placed to do Expert Level Table Top. His right hip is free and ready to extend and rotate.)

4: In image 4 he is about to initiate forward upper body rotation. (In my Table Top image, he's beginning to put his hand palm-down on the table.)

5: In image 5 he's started extending his right leg and hip, and his upper body rotation is just under way. (In Table Top terms, his hand is on the table but started to rotate to palm up, and his fairly straight arm has begun to rotate externally (ESR). You can see the contrast between the forearm in image 4, and its appearance in image 5 and 6, proving the arm is externally rotating in the shoulder socket. IMPORTANT: As you start to rotate the upper body and externally rotate the shoulder, supinating your forearm, it is VERY important to work through it slowly so that you learn to let the racquet flip back into lag without hurting your wrist. The way Fed seems to push his palm down (or some would say 'extend his wrist up') is part of that. I mentioned learning to catch the weight of the racquet on your large forearm muscles as your forearm supinates, your hand flips and starts forward, and the racquet 'flips' back. This is easy to learn, but involves feel. Work out the feel.

6: Image 6 is just a high-speed frame ahead of image 5, and reveals, if subtly, the continued leg extension, UB rotation, and arm rotation (supination of the forearm, external rotation of the upper arm bone at the shoulder.) In Table Top terms, his hand is about to go palm-up!)

7: Image 7 shows fairly complete leg extension and hip/UB rotation. (The photo shows his hand has, in Table Top terms, flipped palm up. He's reached the final moment position of the Table Top bit. But notice the racquet isn't facing the sky, but only about half open, the racquet butt cap is coming forward and a bit toward the sideline.

8: In this image he's still rotating his upper body. Image 8 shows the partial payoff of the external arm rotation: There's high tension at the shoulder, in the forearm, and the wrist is laid back. If he contracts all those muscles through the hit, he'll get major velocity and some desired degree of topspin. (In Table Top terms, he's now said "the h__l with it" and is pulling the hand forward from it's sacred spot....)

9: Image 9 shows the move into contact. The tension in the shoulder and arm that was built up in the ESR phase is now being unloaded in ISR, the "internal shoulder rotation." His upper arm is internally rotating in the shoulder joint (rotating counterclockwise) and his forearm is pronating into the hit.

10: Image 10 reveals even further UB rotation, and how the previous arm arrangements lead, into contact, to a strong position behind the racquet, extension of the body into the hit, and the ability, using the technique shown in the prior 9 images, to make the shot consistently.

11: Look and learn, but I'll let the image (or blog comments) speak for itself. (In Table Top terms, he has brilliantly knocked a pile of books off the table...)

12: Speaks for itself.

13: An arm-and-shoulder-safe deceleration is not a trivial thing.

14: As for 12, above...

15: The end is typical, and the thing to remember that point, as you well know, is that the ball that was hit might come back.

END

 

[arche3]

Tennis is really not this complicated. I know people mean well. But just practice. Follow a good live coach.
A good coach sets up scenarios where you will be able to execute the proper form without much thinking. Hand feeds.... Whatever.
But yeah this is way too complicated in this thread right now.

 

[Raul_SJ]

I amazed that this thread has had this many views so clearly there is something here that resonates. So a video would be MUCH appreciated.

This is a great thread Shroud.

If you get a chance, maybe consider starting a fresh thread (as this thread is a bit long) that summarizes what was covered and learned with these series of MTM lessons.

 

[Curiosity]

Tennis is really not this complicated. I know people mean well. But just practice. Follow a good live coach.
A good coach sets up scenarios where you will be able to execute the proper form without much thinking. Hand feeds.... Whatever.
But yeah this is way too complicated in this thread right now.

The complication is over. The Table Top, Sidearm Throw, and fifteen photos...isn't complicated. I think what is most important, given that this is a message board and free, is that those three bits to observe and think about shouldn't hurt his game. He can ignore them or not. He can put change and thought aside for a time. If he actually comes back to the descriptions, photos, and videos in a month or six, they might serve him well. That's enough.

If you think the typical 'live coach' in the U.S. has any inclination to lead an middle-aged adult student to an ATP forehand, or that the typical adult is willing to pay for the slow implicit process, you live in a dream. Your son had such a coach, you, to make sure things progressed, whatever the other influences or drills. Barring such luck, wonderful coaching...is actually very rare. When you find it, it's usually very expensive, unless you're in a USTA player development, urban outreach, or challenged player tennis program. Even in those lots of the coaching is atrocious, depending on the region.

Ask Ash Smith who pays his salary, and who gets his services. For most highly trained coaches the answer is simple. Their wages come from the national associations and the relatively rich. I know who keeps our good local coaches in rent money, and its those kids plus the children of affluence. Simple. So some explicit material in writing and photos shouldn't be considered X-rated.

 

[arche3]

The complication is over. The Table Top, Sidearm Throw, and fifteen photos...isn't complicated. I think what is most important, given that this is a message board and free, is that those three bits to observe and think about shouldn't hurt his game. He can ignore them or not. He can put change and thought aside for a time. If he actually comes back to the descriptions, photos, and videos in a month or six, they might serve him well. That's enough.

If you think the typical 'live coach' in the U.S. has any inclination to lead an middle-aged adult student to an ATP forehand, or that the typical adult is willing to pay for the slow implicit process, you live in a dream. Your son had such a coach, you, to make sure things progressed, whatever the other influences or drills. Barring such luck, wonderful coaching...is actually very rare. When you find it, it's usually very expensive, unless you're in a USTA player development, urban outreach, or challenged player tennis program. Even in those lots of the coaching is atrocious, depending on the region.

Ask Ash Smith who pays his salary, and who gets his services. For most highly trained coaches the answer is simple. Their wages come from the national associations and the relatively rich. I know who keeps our good local coaches in rent money, and its those kids plus the children of affluence. Simple. So some explicit material in writing and photos shouldn't be considered X-rated.

I'm sure you know what your talking about and are correct. The coaches I know the majority suck.
I'm just saying tennis cannot be taught via text on a forum. But help is I'm sure appreciated and the effort you have put in you should get a coaching fee....

 

[mightyrick]

Hi Shroud,

I hope you'll forgive the "hippie" remark. He's probably got a plan, and it will all be good. You wouldn't believe how much personality-crushing (mine) I've had to do to present a reasonable face to a fellow tennis player, curbing the usual acerbic tongue. Laugh. Yes, I realize the crushing was not always successful....

I wouldn't blame the Table Top Experiment for any pain. I tried the Table Top on an unwitting friend. He wasn't harmed, and did get it, BUT I noticed he at first was trying to pull his shoulder back/in tightly as he rotated his upper body, essentially trying to rotate WITHOUT letting his elbow pull through, his upper arm bone rotate in the shoulder. HA! I've discovered what you were probably doing. No? Such is life. My directions were inadequately specific. Let your shoulder remain out to the side, relaxed, until the Table Top bit 'unrelaxes' it.

I would again thank Ash and Gyswandir for some helpful hints as to coaching, which may in the future benefit a few people who, blind to the obvious risks which a prudent man would never accept, ask me in-person for some help.

So here's what remains. Forget the rest, all the prior posts, except perhaps #274 and the Table Top. Peek at the all-caps SIDEARM THROW if you wish, but do, if you have time, skip down to the entries labelled 1 through 15 matching the 15 photo pairs in the link Gyswandir provided at Tennis Speed, http://blog.tennisspeed.com/2011/12/roadmap-to-hall-of-fame-forehand-part-3.html viewing the photos in the link side-by-side in a separate browser window.... If you don't read these comments I won't win the Free Trip to the South of France I've been working toward, so please do look at them, eventually...please? Laugh.

SIDEARM THROWING AND THE FIFTEEN PHOTOS:

You may have THROWN A BASEBALL SIDEARM at some point in life. Typically the sidearm motion involves taking the throwing arm and hand back at chest level, then rotating your upper body forward, letting the shoulder drag the elbow under and forward...with the forearm, hand, and ball lagging behind. (This stretches certain shoulder muscles, initiates external rotation of the upper arm bone in the shoulder.) You then power the throw finish by quickly straightening your arm a bit as you use the muscles of the shoulder's "rotator cuff" (in ESR) to "internally rotate the upper arm bone in the shoulder joint," (ISR)...and pronate your forearm as you release the ball: That sequence is approximately duplicated in a modern tennis forehand...kind of.

The sequence of actions causing ESR as you initiate the forward swing of a forehand creates a set of stretched muscles and advantageous arm positions which will allow you to swing/push out to the ball effectively. Just as in the sidearm pitch, you'll also be able to benefit from the ESR muscle stretching as you finally approach the instant before contacting the tennis ball. As you get close to contact you'll unwind the ESR by, surprise, contracting the stretched muscles as you internally rotate the upper arm bone in the shoulder joint. This is called ISR.

THE OVERALL SWING THAT TAKES ADVANTAGE OF THE ESR BIT:

Videos are nice, but a series of stills taken at an advantageous angle may make the phases of the modern forehand much clearer to you. Comment-poster Gyswandir was nice enough to point out a good sequence showing a Federer forehand in 15 sequential photos. They are well labelled by the blog that posted them. They may well make clearer to you the important steps of the forehand which are difficult to isolate when watching video, even slow motion video. You can read as much of the accompanying text as you want, but it's the photos that tell the story. (When you click on the link and are on the page, just scroll down a good bit until you come to the first photo. I would recommend ignoring the second photo in each pair, those of Hewitt.)

http://blog.tennisspeed.com/2011/12/...nd-part-3.html

I'll make brief comments that go with each of the fifteen photos, from a casual player point of view, not a hyper-technical standpoint, unless, laugh, you still call ESR hyper-technical:

1: Since you want to win points, recovering to a good ready position makes sense. It also makes your forehand more consistent if you can start from a standard position. Fed's is fairly relaxed. The blog's comments to this are straightforward. You may create your own idea of the best hand position on the racquet at the ready. No two people are the same.

2: As the blog poster points out, Fed raises his left elbow on the backswing, but not the right one. (The height varies, of course, with the the situation he's in. The backswing ('take-over...') shown is adequate. Once you get used to it you can take it back higher if that serves you, as he does in many match points. He's a pro, after all...)

3: In the backswing the left hand has to eventually part ways with the racquet, but it's good to take the left hand that far over, so that the off arm can help later in the swing. The racquet face is open and facing the sideline. (In my Table Top image, he's got his upper body facing the table, and he's ready to lower his hand to the table. His feet are well-placed to do Expert Level Table Top. His right hip is free and ready to extend and rotate.)

4: In image 4 he is about to initiate forward upper body rotation. (In my Table Top image, he's beginning to put his hand palm-down on the table.)

5: In image 5 he's started extending his right leg and hip, and his upper body rotation is just under way. (In Table Top terms, his hand is on the table but started to rotate to palm up, and his fairly straight arm has begun to rotate externally (ESR). You can see the contrast between the forearm in image 4, and its appearance in image 5 and 6, proving the arm is externally rotating in the shoulder socket. IMPORTANT: As you start to rotate the upper body and externally rotate the shoulder, supinating your forearm, it is VERY important to work through it slowly so that you learn to let the racquet flip back into lag without hurting your wrist. The way Fed seems to push his palm down (or some would say 'extend his wrist up') is part of that. I mentioned learning to catch the weight of the racquet on your large forearm muscles as your forearm supinates, your hand flips and starts forward, and the racquet 'flips' back. This is easy to learn, but involves feel. Work out the feel.

6: Image 6 is just a high-speed frame ahead of image 5, and reveals, if subtly, the continued leg extension, UB rotation, and arm rotation (supination of the forearm, external rotation of the upper arm bone at the shoulder.) In Table Top terms, his hand is about to go palm-up!)

7: Image 7 shows fairly complete leg extension and hip/UB rotation. (The photo shows his hand has, in Table Top terms, flipped palm up. He's reached the final moment position of the Table Top bit. But notice the racquet isn't facing the sky, but only about half open, the racquet butt cap is coming forward and a bit toward the sideline.

8: In this image he's still rotating his upper body. Image 8 shows the partial payoff of the external arm rotation: There's high tension at the shoulder, in the forearm, and the wrist is laid back. If he contracts all those muscles through the hit, he'll get major velocity and some desired degree of topspin. (In Table Top terms, he's now said "the h__l with it" and is pulling the hand forward from it's sacred spot....)

9: Image 9 shows the move into contact. The tension in the shoulder and arm that was built up in the ESR phase is now being unloaded in ISR, the "internal shoulder rotation." His upper arm is internally rotating in the shoulder joint (rotating counterclockwise) and his forearm is pronating into the hit.

10: Image 10 reveals even further UB rotation, and how the previous arm arrangements lead, into contact, to a strong position behind the racquet, extension of the body into the hit, and the ability, using the technique shown in the prior 9 images, to make the shot consistently.

11: Look and learn, but I'll let the image (or blog comments) speak for itself. (In Table Top terms, he has brilliantly knocked a pile of books off the table...)

12: Speaks for itself.

13: An arm-and-shoulder-safe deceleration is not a trivial thing.

14: As for 12, above...

15: The end is typical, and the thing to remember that point, as you well know, is that the ball that was hit might come back.

END

Dude, you need to shorten it up. I'm not sure if it's part of the instructor certification, but MTM guys are far too verbose.

 

[Shroud]

Dude, you need to shorten it up. I'm not sure if it's part of the instructor certification, but MTM guys are far too verbose.

Pretty sure curiosity is NOT an MTM guy.

FWIW my coach IS and MTM guy and he is not verbose at all. Quite the opposite actually. More like Ashs comments.

 

[Curiosity]

Pretty sure curiosity is NOT an MTM guy.

FWIW my coach IS and MTM guy and he is not verbose at all. Quite the opposite actually. More like Ashs comments.

Stepping aside from the disagreements posters have about exactly what coaching methods or systems work, it is impossible to learn something you can't see easily unless either you get explicit descriptions and matching videos or photos (hello), or 'you almost know it already' (good coaching and implicit learning) and the coach is still there to make sure you finish the journey.

As I said some posts ago, I haven't offered coaching. I've offered some explicit descriptions and a few physically analogical examples.

Shroud now has some explicit stuff and an MTM coach. He can't lose.

 

[Curiosity]

Pretty sure curiosity is NOT an MTM guy. FWIW my coach IS and MTM guy and he is not verbose at all. Quite the opposite actually. More like Ashs comments.

Shroud (and many others) may be nonplussed at my focus on ESR, and wonder "why?" There is a reason. When I originally looked at his various videos I came quickly to the conclusion that the major shortcomings in his forehand could be seen in the way he used his shoulder, the positioning and movement of his upper arm and elbow, all in the early stages of his transition from a backswing to his forward motion, a brief interval.

I concluded that if he fixed that bit with the help of a coach, all the rest, the various useful elaborations, could fall into place easily enough ....later. So I revisited the point various ways, hoping by sheer will of propaganda, if not information, to induce Shroud to find a friend or coach that would teach the basics of that one interval, set of motions, essentially the Table Top synchronized UB Rotation-External arm rotation, fairly directly. I have confidence that if not by virtue of information, at least the propaganda effect will lead him to pursue the thing.

"Relax the shoulder on the backswing. Let the UB rotation and pulling through of the elbow, the external upper arm rotation, together, then induce the right kinds of tension in the right places." The rest is easy. Such was my thinking.

 

[Topspin Shot]

Shroud, here's my video. Hope it helps. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6MwD8ugXPeA&feature=youtu.be

 

[Curiosity]

Shroud, here's my video. Hope it helps. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6MwD8ugXPeA&feature=youtu.be

I think your video should be a big help. (I haven't got the privilege to post videos yet.) The arm demonstrations, especially displaying the difference between supination/pronation and external shoulder rotation/internal rotation was a super touch.

The shoulders in a forehand should usually remain quite square, at the side, through the hit. But your exaggerated movement of the entire joint back, then forward and in toward the neck, probably DID help make the concept clearer to Shroud. Those moves may even provide some of the feeling he needs to find. Ah, video. You did Shroud a big favor.

 

[Topspin Shot]

I think your video should be a big help. (I haven't got the privilege to post videos yet.) The arm demonstrations, especially displaying the difference between supination/pronation and external shoulder rotation/internal rotation was a super touch.

The shoulders in a forehand should usually remain quite square, at the side, through the hit. But your exaggerated movement of the entire joint back, then forward and in toward the neck, probably DID help make the concept clearer to Shroud. Those moves may even provide some of the feeling he needs to find. Ah, video. You did Shroud a big favor.

Thanks for the kind words. I was exaggerating the movements a bit to make them more visible.

 

[Curiosity]

Thanks for the kind words. I was exaggerating the movements a bit to make them more visible.

That was clear to me. However, I laughed after I posted my comment: The forward/inward exaggeration actually reminded me of the way Sampras often enough finished his forehand.

 

[5263]

Shroud, here's my video. Hope it helps. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6MwD8ugXPeA&feature=youtu.be

very nice job TS

 

[arche3]

Shroud, here's my video. Hope it helps. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6MwD8ugXPeA&feature=youtu.be

This is much better than a lot of txt. This is what I mean. You cannot teach tennis via text.

 

[Curiosity]

This is much better than a lot of txt. This is what I mean. You cannot teach tennis via text.

You can, but it's like bailing a boat with a teaspoon. Now text and video together? That works. "The ball," as they say, "is in Shroud's court."

 

[Topspin Shot]

very nice job TS

This is much better than a lot of txt. This is what I mean. You cannot teach tennis via text.

You can, but it's like bailing a boat with a teaspoon. Now text and video together? That works. "The ball," as they say, "is in Shroud's court."

Thanks guys. I hope Shroud sees it.

 

[Shroud]

Thanks guys. I hope Shroud sees it.

Saw it!

THANKSSSSSS! Its so clear!

Great job on explaining it. I was getting tripped up because there are a few different ways to do it, and your vid explained it perfectly, and related it to the FH.

If only i wasnt sick, I could be out on the courts practicing. Sucks I had yesterday and today off to play tennis and I get sick. UGH. And OF COURSE there are demo rackets that showed up on wed....

Hopefully tommorrow I am better.

Thanks again for the effort TS. It was very helpful.

 

[Curiosity]

Saw it!

THANKSSSSSS! Its so clear!

Great job on explaining it. I was getting tripped up because there are a few different ways to do it, and your vid explained it perfectly, and related it to the FH.

If only i wasnt sick, I could be out on the courts practicing. Sucks I had yesterday and today off to play tennis and I get sick. UGH. And OF COURSE there are demo rackets that showed up on wed....

Hopefully tommorrow I am better.

Thanks again for the effort TS. It was very helpful.

Sorry to hear you're sick. What can a person do when sick? Well, in a moment of boredom he could view the fifteen photos and captions, so I can win my Free Trip to the South of France? Then he could honestly delete that GIF, because he HAS read them, which GIF, laugh, drives me crazy each time I see it.....

 

[Topspin Shot]

Saw it!

THANKSSSSSS! Its so clear!

Great job on explaining it. I was getting tripped up because there are a few different ways to do it, and your vid explained it perfectly, and related it to the FH.

If only i wasnt sick, I could be out on the courts practicing. Sucks I had yesterday and today off to play tennis and I get sick. UGH. And OF COURSE there are demo rackets that showed up on wed....

Hopefully tommorrow I am better.

Thanks again for the effort TS. It was very helpful.

Glad it helped. Let me know if there's something else you don't get, and feel better!

 

[5263]

Glad it helped. Let me know if there's something else you don't get, and feel better!

Now that we have it, maybe it can be explained how the acronym itself, ESR, is so important to know. I'm not saying it's not, but if we are all teaching that, but not using the ESR term, how is that hurting our student? Again, maybe using this term is important, but I'm not sure what the issue was for those who teach this without the acronym. What am I missing here?

 

[Curiosity]

Now that we have it, maybe it can be explained how the acronym itself, ESR, is so important to know. I'm not saying it's not, but if we are all teaching that, but not using the ESR term, how is that hurting our student? Again, maybe using this term is important, but I'm not sure what the issue was for those who teach this without the acronym. What am I missing here?

First, you're not all teaching it. You are especially not teaching why it is done, what functions it serves in the forehand.

Second, having a name for an action makes it possible to mention it where appropriate in speaking or writing.

The term ESR is standard across physiology, medicine, and sports. It is simple and brief. Why do you use the term 'pronation'? Same motives, same utility.

 

[Topspin Shot]

Now that we have it, maybe it can be explained how the acronym itself, ESR, is so important to know. I'm not saying it's not, but if we are all teaching that, but not using the ESR term, how is that hurting our student? Again, maybe using this term is important, but I'm not sure what the issue was for those who teach this without the acronym. What am I missing here?

Nothing. I don't normally use the term; I like "slot" and would be content providing a visual and making corrections if needed. Saying "point the buttcap at the ball" works too. Curiousity was talking about ESR, and Shroud was getting confused, so I explained it in the video. A coach should know what ESR is, but there's no need to mention it to students.