Hefty fines for Fognini and Kyrgios - Outburst at Umpires

[tennisaddict]

Kyrgios has been docked $31000 for retiring after 1st set against Johnson.

Fognini has been docked anywhere from $48000- $96000 and could face 2 majors suspension if he repeats any offense till 2019 for the USO affair.

Both players were ticked off by poor umpiring.

While these players crossed the line it cannot be denied that the fundamental cause is inefficient umpiring.

Can ATP / ITF not afford hawk-eye for majors and masters at least ?

These are huge fines and we also don't have to deal with third rate umpires making atrocious calls.Also this impedes the momentum of players and these fines are really high.

 

[NeverQuit]

If the umpire wasnt female , the penalty wouldnt have been nearly as harsh.

 

[tennisaddict]

Instead of spending on the gold badge umpires and their travels, I am pretty sure the investment in hawk-eye will pay itself.

Not blaming the umpires completely because to make errors at those speed is easy but when there is technology available and slams making so much money why cannot they put money back into the tour ?

 

[Big_Dangerous]

Instead of spending on the gold badge umpires and their travels, I am pretty sure the investment in hawk-eye will pay itself.

Not blaming the umpires completely because to make errors at those speed is easy but when there is technology available and slams making so much money why cannot they put money back into the tour ?

ITF and ATP are separate entities though. So at slams, that's governed by the ITF, but at Masters it's the ATP.

 

[tennisaddict]

ITF and ATP are separate entities though. So at slams, that's governed by the ITF, but at Masters it's the ATP.

Both are making tons of money..Call it 'Rolex Vision' or 'BNP Paribas Lens' or something like that so it can get sponsors..

Seems like the organization is very slow to change.

 

[intrepidish]

While these players crossed the line it cannot be denied that the fundamental cause is inefficient umpiring.

What a load of nonsense from you. The fundamental cause as you put it is that we have 2 headcases who deserve a nice ban in addition to their fines.

They should go work in a factory where their outbursts would be greeted far more harshly.

 

[BlueClayGOAT]

If the umpire wasnt female , the penalty wouldnt have been nearly as harsh.

If the umpire wasn't female, Fognini wouldn't have said the disgusting things he did in the first place.
What a sexist turd.

Can't believe some people are actually defending him.

 

[BlueClayGOAT]

You can be irritated by a bad umpiring call and still not be a deplorable dipsh*t of a human being. It's possible.

 

[George Turner]

Calm down everyone, this is a suspended ban. Which means he hasn't been banned at all.

 

[tennisaddict]

Calm down everyone, this is a suspended ban. Which means he hasn't been banned at all.

$30000 and $48000 are huge fines , even assuming he does not get the bam

 

[tennisaddict]

What a load of nonsense from you. The fundamental cause as you put it is that we have 2 headcases who deserve a nice ban in addition to their fines.

They should go work in a factory where their outbursts would be greeted far more harshly.

A job of an umpire is not like a 9-5 office clerical work.

If they may make mistakes at critical junctures then it alters the career of the players significantly.

This thread is more about why ITF is not quick to implement technology everywhere. Then the poor umpiring becomes an irrelevant conversation.

 

[Legend of Borg]

fognini's case is overblown because a female got some bad words said to her

unlucky for him

 

[tennisaddict]

fognini's case is overblown because a female got some bad words said to her

unlucky for him

True. I think Medvedev throwing coins at the umpire was far far worse and he got away with nothing.

 

[Big_Dangerous]

fognini's case is overblown because a female got some bad words said to her

unlucky for him

Tell that to Ilie Nastase..

 

[Big_Dangerous]

True. I think Medvedev throwing coins at the umpire was far far worse and he got away with nothing.

Roflmao, I forgot about that!

https://deadspin.com/daniil-medvedev-melts-down-at-wimbledon-tosses-money-a-1796645448

 

[tennis_pro]

If the umpire wasnt female , the penalty wouldnt have been nearly as harsh.

Equal rights my a**!

 

[Legend of Borg]

True. I think Medvedev throwing coins at the umpire was far far worse and he got away with nothing.

meh, i don't know if it was worse but it certainly didn't get nearly the coverage compared to fognini's case

if you don't watch tennis you woulda thought fognini punched a baby and stole its candy or something

 

[Rattler]

Well not in Fognini’s case, but this Asian swing of events had had some pretty poor lines calling. Embarrassingly bad in some cases.

 

[BlueClayGOAT]

Do people realise that Fognini wouldn't have made those remarks in the first place to a man? How can you defend casual, disgusting sexism and a complete lack of respect for another human being like this?

 

[BlueClayGOAT]

It's very easy for a man to dictate from a position of privilege and say things got overblown.

Unless you are from a disadvantaged section of society (women, the poor, non-white etc) you can have no idea what it feels like to have someone like Fognini say things like that to you over something which is a fairly mundane occurrence.

 

[tennisaddict]

Do people realise that Fognini wouldn't have made those remarks in the first place to a man? How can you defend casual, disgusting sexism and a complete lack of respect for another human being like this?

Men have done much worse to male referees and got away . Also if Donald Young or Tiafoe made the same accusation against a female umpire, result would be same as Fognini.

The main issue is why they cannot implement technology and do away with poor umpiring. We don't really need to get into the men vs women issue here.

 

[BlueClayGOAT]

Men have done much worse to male referees and got away . Also if Donald Young or Tiafoe made the same accusation against a female umpire, result would be same as Fognini.

The main issue is why they cannot implement technology and do away with poor umpiring. We don't really need to get into the men vs women issue here.

All the same, doing what he did deserves punishment of some sort. You wouldn't expect someone working in an office to walk scot-free after saying something like that to their colleague. Why then on a tennis court?

Saying that others got away with worse is whataboutery of the highest order, isn't it?

As for implementation of technology, I agree that if the tech is reliable, there needs to be more widespread use of it to eliminate howlers from umpires.

I believe that the margin of error in tennis Hawkeye is small enough for it to be negligible- as opposed to cricket, where Hawkeye is also used, but as a predictive tool for ball tracking which attempts to calculate where the ball would have gone if not for an obstacle. In tennis, the ball actually went where it did and Hawkeye is used to simulate an actual real world event.

I don't know if you are familiar with cricket, but the constraints of the tech suggest that the accuracy of Hawkeye is far more reliable in tennis than in cricket.

 

[heninfan99]

big fines for us, a pittance for them

 

[mavsman149]

big fines for us, a pittance for them

That's more than the fines most NFL players get and they definitely don't make as much money. I don't think Cam Newton got fined for his sexist comment at all

 

[heninfan99]

That's more than the fines most NFL players get and they definitely don't make as much money. I don't think Cam Newton got fined for his sexist comment at all

Fognini is from Gulbis-like wealth.
St.Nick I'm sure can afford his fine.

 

[mavsman149]

Fognini is from Gulbis-like wealth.
St.Nick I'm sure can afford his fine.

I didn't know that about Fognini, and while I'm sure Nick can afford it I still think it's extreme. To be clear, I'm not defending their actions in any way nor am I a fan of either, just think it's a bit extreme.

 

[Noelan]

Fognini father is from very wealthy and prominient Sanremo family

 

[newpball]

While these players crossed the line it cannot be denied that the fundamental cause is inefficient umpiring.

What a bunch of nonsense!

 

[Aussie Darcy]

big fines for us, a pittance for them

Funny you say that because Fognini posted this to his snapchat.

Fairly obvious that the fine isn't much to him.

 

[Rattler]

Umpires are expert professionals who perform a difficult, high-pressure job.

As a former umpire that worked these events, I’d say we have pretty thick skin, they understand that the players are competing, which sometimes spills over in other behaviors. Plus it’s much worse on the grassroots or Jr ITF. Believe it. Coaches, parents and players (men’s 4.0 in particular).

As a Service Veteran...I agree with your cartoon, actions have consequences...and free speech, a Constitutionally protected right, is not immune or shielded from them.

 

[reaper]

Kyrgios has been docked $31000 for retiring after 1st set against Johnson.

Fognini has been docked anywhere from $48000- $96000 and could face 2 majors suspension if he repeats any offense till 2019 for the USO affair.

Both players were ticked off by poor umpiring.

While these players crossed the line it cannot be denied that the fundamental cause is inefficient umpiring.

Can ATP / ITF not afford hawk-eye for majors and masters at least ?

These are huge fines and we also don't have to deal with third rate umpires making atrocious calls.Also this impedes the momentum of players and these fines are really high.

What was wrong with the umpiring?

 

[Rattler]

What was wrong with the umpiring?

The ATP Asian Tournaments have had some pretty bad calls all around...embarrassingly bad in some instances.

 

[reaper]

The ATP Asian Tournaments have had some pretty bad calls all around...embarrassingly bad in some instances.

I didn't see anything wrong with the umpiring in Kyrgios's match in Shanghai...maybe there was. He was forced to replay an important point that he probably would have won in Beijing. I don't know what happened in the Fognini match. Players can be on the right and wrong side of questionable calls, but the result of virtually every match is based on the merits of the players not the officiating. The fact some players allow one questionable call to affect them indicates they need to make massive and immediate improvement to their mental strength/approach, not that their needs to be a dramatic overhaul to the way the sport is officiated.

 

[Rattler]

I didn't see anything wrong with the umpiring in Kyrgios's match in Shanghai...maybe there was. He was forced to replay an important point that he probably would have won in Beijing. I don't know what happened in the Fognini match. Players can be on the right and wrong side of questionable calls, but the result of virtually every match is based on the merits of the players not the officiating. The fact some players allow one questionable call to affect them indicates they need to make massive and immediate improvement to their mental strength/approach, not that their needs to be a dramatic overhaul to the way the sport is officiated.

I agree that it shouldn’t bother them, but take the Swartzman v Federer match into account. Swartzman has been playing at a high level for the past few months and doing exceptionally well in Asia. He’s playing Fed tough through the first set, then on a ball that the line umpire should’ve known was too close to call, he loses a Hawkeye challenge and Carlos B. awards the point to Roger. Totally broke his confidence (To me Swartzman thought he got hooked by the chair and was on the receiving end of a superstar-favored ruling ((the fact that it was absolutely the correct ruling by Carlos B. is great, but besides the point))). Swartzman wilted the first half of the second set...he was tight, he was going for too much and credit to him that he came back strong, although he ultimately lost the match. The fact is all of that was caused initially by a bad call..and one easily avoided.

Also consider a lot of the players, those who are well known arguers and ones who are not, have all been complaining to the chair umpires about calls. They know the calls are shakey. This doesn’t make the chair umpires all that confident in the line crew and causes them to also over-reach or make some questionable decisions/rulings...yes they are professionals, yes, they are Gold and Silver badges who’ve been their before, but they are also human too. It happens. This hasn’t been the strongest showing of line calls at this level, in fact it’s been pretty bad.


And as I type this another bad call just happened in the Querry V Dimitrov match. SMH.

Also in no way am I advocating a drastic overhaul of officiating...I was an umpire for 10 years at this level, I’m just stating that the line crews haven’t been all that strong, across the board...that’s all.

 

[TripleATeam]

It's very easy for a man to dictate from a position of privilege and say things got overblown.

Unless you are from a disadvantaged section of society (women, the poor, non-white etc) you can have no idea what it feels like to have someone like Fognini say things like that to you over something which is a fairly mundane occurrence.

I knew somebody would come up with that term.

SJW.

I hope you don't have to face it ever, @bitcoinoperated , but it's a terrible thing to be called a ***** for doing your job.
Umpires are expert professionals who perform a difficult, high-pressure job.

And this has nothing to do with 'freedom of expression'. There are certain rules of society which exist in any professional atmosphere. Fognini is free to do what he wants inside his own house. I appreciate that players go through extreme pressures and that winning pro tennis matches is damnably hard, but you can't have people going scot-free for calling someone a ***** in a workplace.

I don't want to argue- just gonna throw my two cents in. Take them or leave them.

Yeah, calling someone that stuff in a workplace is not okay. However, a lot of times these matches get to people. The tension is high, and as long as they do it directed away from them, (as in, in a low voice under their breath or something) I think the player shouldn't really be penalized. Fognini said it loud enough for many to hear, so he's in the wrong, but sometimes people get frustrated and make a mistake. I know Fognini is a repeat offender, and here he is in the wrong, but a unilateral policy isn't the way to go here.

As for the disadvantaged people, yeah, we don't really know what it's like. But the thing that turns us privileged people off is that we intrinsically will never be a valid source on the issue. Our view can be marginalized by being told "we have no experience, so we can't talk about it." That sort of makes us annoyed. Sure, I might not know how it is to be a woman in society, but that doesn't mean that every woman automatically trumps me when we talk about these things. No one is 100% privileged, and that disadvantage in one thing can often translate to another.

I, for one, as an Eastern European have had relatives that were discriminated against in Western European countries for their nationalities, so I just speak English (accentless) to avoid that myself. Why can't this be used to sort-of empathize with other situations? I'm told I have no idea what it's like to be discriminated for something you can't change, and when I try to argue that I have been, it's pointless. They stop listening.

If I'm told my country was "genocidal" and "started the World Wars" and "is stuck in the stone ages," I think I have a bit of authority, but due to people's perceived image of me, my opinion no longer seems to matter.

Like I said, I don't know. Take it or leave it. This is why forums are good. I can finally voice my opinion without being shut down.

 

[reaper]

I agree that it shouldn’t bother them, but take the Swartzman v Federer match into account. Swartzman has been playing at a high level for the past few months and doing exceptionally well in Asia. He’s playing Fed tough through the first set, then on a ball that the line umpire should’ve known was too close to call, he loses a Hawkeye challenge and Carlos B. awards the point to Roger. Totally broke his confidence (To me Swartzman thought he got hooked by the chair and was on the receiving end of a superstar-favored ruling ((the fact that it was absolutely the correct ruling by Carlos B. is great, but besides the point))). Swartzman wilted the first half of the second set...he was tight, he was going for too much and credit to him that he came back strong, although he ultimately lost the match. The fact is all of that was caused initially by a bad call..and one easily avoided.

Also consider a lot of the players, those who are well known arguers and ones who are not, have all been complaining to the chair umpires about calls. They know the calls are shakey. This doesn’t make the chair umpires all that confident in the line crew and causes them to also over-reach or make some questionable decisions/rulings...yes they are professionals, yes, they are Gold and Silver badges who’ve been their before, but they are also human too. It happens. This hasn’t been the strongest showing of line calls at this level, in fact it’s been pretty bad.


And as I type this another bad call just happened in the Querry V Dimitrov match. SMH.

Also in no way am I advocating a drastic overhaul of officiating...I was an umpire for 10 years at this level, I’m just stating that the line crews haven’t been all that strong, across the board...that’s all.

There's no doubt Schwartzmann thought the umpire was favouring Federer because Federer got a replayed point on a hawkeye call, Schwartzmann didn't in circumstances that were similar but not identical. As you say, the umpire was correct. I can see a problem if Schwartzmann got "Hooked" by a star struck umpire because the calls are favouring Federer, but can't see a problem if players just think they're being hooked in matches that are being umpired impartially but with ordinary human error. Kyrgios wasn't a victim of bias at all...he got a call that went against him on a ball that touched the edge of the line. That's ordinary luck in the course of a match and no valid reason for a player to lose control.

 

[Rattler]

There's no doubt Schwartzmann thought the umpire was favouring Federer because Federer got a replayed point on a hawkeye call, Schwartzmann didn't in circumstances that were similar but not identical. As you say, the umpire was correct. I can see a problem if Schwartzmann got "Hooked" by a star struck umpire because the calls are favouring Federer, but can't see a problem if players just think they're being hooked in matches that are being umpired impartially but with ordinary human error. Kyrgios wasn't a victim of bias at all...he got a call that went against him on a ball that touched the edge of the line. That's ordinary luck in the course of a match and no valid reason for a player to lose control.

The call against Kyrgios in Beijing was oddly similar to the call in the Schwartzman match...too close to call..and the line umpire jumped it each time. Also they were on big points ...tiebreak for Schwartzmen and a breakpoint against Nadal early in the match within Kyrgios.

I also seriously doubt Carlos, Fergus, Mohamad, and the other Gold’s are star struck.

 

[BlueClayGOAT]

I don't want to argue- just gonna throw my two cents in. Take them or leave them.

Yeah, calling someone that stuff in a workplace is not okay. However, a lot of times these matches get to people. The tension is high, and as long as they do it directed away from them, (as in, in a low voice under their breath or something) I think the player shouldn't really be penalized. Fognini said it loud enough for many to hear, so he's in the wrong, but sometimes people get frustrated and make a mistake. I know Fognini is a repeat offender, and here he is in the wrong, but a unilateral policy isn't the way to go here.

As for the disadvantaged people, yeah, we don't really know what it's like. But the thing that turns us privileged people off is that we intrinsically will never be a valid source on the issue. Our view can be marginalized by being told "we have no experience, so we can't talk about it." That sort of makes us annoyed. Sure, I might not know how it is to be a woman in society, but that doesn't mean that every woman automatically trumps me when we talk about these things. No one is 100% privileged, and that disadvantage in one thing can often translate to another.

I, for one, as an Eastern European have had relatives that were discriminated against in Western European countries for their nationalities, so I just speak English (accentless) to avoid that myself. Why can't this be used to sort-of empathize with other situations? I'm told I have no idea what it's like to be discriminated for something you can't change, and when I try to argue that I have been, it's pointless. They stop listening.

If I'm told my country was "genocidal" and "started the World Wars" and "is stuck in the stone ages," I think I have a bit of authority, but due to people's perceived image of me, my opinion no longer seems to matter.

Like I said, I don't know. Take it or leave it. This is why forums are good. I can finally voice my opinion without being shut down.

Excellent points. I agree with most of these.

A unilateral policy is not the way to go- it rarely is- but in this case, Fognini, being a repeat offender and having said those words loudly enough for people to hear, deserves some sort of penalty.

Yes, everyone deserves to have a voice, privileged or not. But the problem arises when disadvantaged sections are judged by vastly different standards than their more well-off counterparts. Case in point: the general reaction of the American right to the often-violent Virginia 'white lives matter' protests compared to black athletes kneeling peacefully to show dissent.

As an aside, it's great to discuss things with a reasonable, rational forum member like you. A rare thing these days.

 

[Big_Dangerous]

That's more than the fines most NFL players get and they definitely don't make as much money. I don't think Cam Newton got fined for his sexist comment at all

Well he lost his yogurt sponsorship deal, so I'm sure that's money he will no longer be collecting.

FWIW: Kyrgios was fined $10,000 for his actions, but since he failed to cite any medical reason and just left the tournament, he's not able to collect/claim his ~ $21,000 and change in prize money, per ATP rules.

 

[Tshooter]

Fognini father is from very wealthy and prominient Sanremo family

And classy. You forgot classy.

 

[Noelan]

And classy. You forgot classy.

Wanting to say that Fabio is rebel? He could be.

 

[BeatlesFan]

Unless you are from a disadvantaged section of society (women, the poor, non-white etc)

Since when was being female "disadvantaged?" I'm a woman and have never been made to feel this way or have felt this way about myself. In fact, it's kind of insulting.

 

[ADuck]

Since when was being female "disadvantaged?" I'm a woman and have never been made to feel this way or have felt this way about myself. In fact, it's kind of insulting.

It's sexist in itself. Why am I previleged to be a man? Is being a man better than being a woman?

 

[Bartelby]

Maybe 'disadvantaged' is the wrong word, but being female has been shown to lessen life chances and that is a social scientific fact.

Since when was being female "disadvantaged?" I'm a woman and have never been made to feel this way or have felt this way about myself. In fact, it's kind of insulting.

 

[ADuck]

Maybe 'disadvantaged' is the wrong word, but being female has been shown to lessen life chances and that is a social scientific fact.

Lmao, what an asinine statement. What is "social scientific fact" sounds like made up bullsh*t to me. Show me evidence that being female "lessens life chances." Women are free to do whatever they want, same as men.

 

[Kalin]

Will read all poasts later but could someone tell me why the Grandstand court at the Shanghai Masters didn't have Hawkeye working? I went there two years ago in 2015 and it had it.

I am asking because during the Basilashvili-Pospisil match there were 3 consecutive points that ended in a controversy that would have been a non-issue with a working Hawkeye. It's the second biggest court at a Masters 1000 event, for krissakes...

The players can be too much at times but seems like the powers that be have not done everything they can to avoid controversies.

 

[Fabresque]

Funny you say that because Fognini posted this to his snapchat.

Fairly obvious that the fine isn't much to him.

I know you did not just call Instagram snapchat

 

[Aussie Darcy]

I know you did not just call Instagram snapchat

Oh whoops. Guess i'm a real out of date millennial.

 

[Alba Barragan]

Lmao, what an asinine statement. What is "social scientific fact" sounds like made up bullsh*t to me. Show me evidence that being female "lessens life chances." Women are free to do whatever they want, same as men.

Are you kidding me?

The concept of gender gap has been around for decades now, there's an entire field of study focused on the analysis of such thing. Only a fool or an extremely oblivious person would believe women and men are receiving the same opportunities. Go and inform yourself a little: https://www.weforum.org/reports/the-global-gender-gap-report-2016

 

[ADuck]

Are you kidding me?

The concept of gender gap has been around for decades now, there's an entire field of study focused on the analysis of such thing. Only a fool or an extremely oblivious person would believe women and men are receiving the same opportunities. Go and inform yourself a little: https://www.weforum.org/reports/the-global-gender-gap-report-2016

It's easy to slam a 391-page article into someones face and tell them to "educate themselves," whilst not saying a single word on the matter. That isn't evidence or proof, that's you telling me that you're just as ignorant as I am on the matter. Come back when you have facts and figures backing up this ridiculous statement.