Help Make My Strokes Pain Free! (Video inside)

[Bobo96]

Alright, so I had tennis elbow for three months this summer, and rotator cuff tendintitis (I think) for about 3 months now. tennis elbow is gone, cuff tendinitis has gotten better, but still not 100%. Before the TE, I hadn't had any upper body injuries, but did have a few lower ones. I have essentially been trying everything. Started out with a cuff strengthening program... Then did a ton of external rotation, and pulling. Most recently, I have been working on the mobility, and tissue quality of my shoulders, t spine, and hips. One phys therapist said that my hips were so tight when rotating internally that my shoulder was probably overcompensating. I was not sure how legit that was though.

Anyways, the last couple days a co worker/friend of mine has been trying to change is stroke(straighten his arm, lift it higher on takeback, and make it loopier) this is more similar to mine, than compared to his short takeback. He started having pain in his shoulder, just like mine (front of shoulder, goes a little into chest too). He suggested that maybe my form had a role in the injury. I tried to hit yesterday for the first time in over a month, and tried going hard with my normal strokes, and it did not feel good after. Today I hit for longer, but tried being more compact than ever, and keeping my left arm on for almost the whole turn, so basically turning all together. I wasent going all out, but hitting with solid pace. Surprisingly, not a lot of pain. Obviously it is still hurt, but it did not aggravate it a whole lot.

Obviously this is not the end all. The mobility stuff I have been doing seems to be helping a lot as well, but I definitely think this may be a large factor I was not considering. I wish I had a newer video of my forehand. I think the two months before I got injured, I was using even more arm, and forcing it.. I was also doing more twisting stuff to get a lot of spin, as I had changed my game a little.

So yeah, Any advice on my strokes are greatly appreciated. Anything you see that will cause pain overtime please point out. My goal Is to still be able to play at the same level and better, but with safer, healthier strokes. I am not an expert on technique, so I am really hoping someone can help me out.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c1d-ERwUvnk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ms1ojeT51c0

 

[comeback]

Stroke is good... Make sure your racket and strings are arm friendly.

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

What grip are you using for your forehand? Can't easily tell from your video. A higher frame rate and some views of your FH from the side would help us to see more detail. Cannot tell where you contact is wrt your body. If it is not far enough forward, it could put undue stress on your shoulder. Also, could not see much of your I/O forehand since you were out of frame for the most part.

Poly strings at high tension? If so, switch to a softer string at a lower tension. Which racket are you using? Wilson Blade of some sort?

Are you sure that you have TE and not GE? TE is associated with a 1-handed BH moreso than a forehand. Golfer's Elbow can result from gripping the racket too tightly. Your grip should be relaxed most of the time. If your grip size is too small (or too large) for you hand, this can be a problem. Excessive squeezing of the handle will create too much tension in the forearm which can result in forearm/elbow problems. It could also cause you to muscle the ball more which could result in other arm/shoulder problems as well.

Noticed that most/all of your FHs were hit with an open (semi-open) stance. This can possibly put more stress on your right hip and right shoulder. Try hitting some (1/3 or more) of your FHs with a neutral stance with a weight shift in to the ball. This could be easier on your hip and, perhaps, your shoulder. This is certainly worth trying. With your open stance shots, the weight shift does not happen until the follow-thru.

 

[maxpotapov]

Look, I used to have this shoulder-to-chest pain, which made me look hard into my technique.
Once I started extending my arm forward (Federer style) and then slapping the ball across only_after_extention, discomfort or pain was gone completely. I have to help with my feet a lot more on contact and follow through to compensate for linear/extended arm motion. But now there is no bent-arm-"hugging" on contact and follow through that would pinch my shoulder-chest because of forceful pronation.
If that makes any sense

And yes, what SystemicAnomaly said, I changed my grip to Federer style to allow for more freedom between the racquet and my hand, which lessens the torque for my wrist/elbow/shoulder
Check out pictures of Federer's and Nadal's grips and hands here:
http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=518469

 

[Bendex]

Those issues you mentioned are usually caused by the serve, not the forehand.

 

[Fintft]

I tried to hit yesterday for the first time in over a month, and tried going hard with my normal strokes, and it did not feel good after. Today I hit for longer, but tried being more compact than ever, and keeping my left arm on for almost the whole turn, so basically turning all together. I wasent going all out, but hitting with solid pace. Surprisingly, not a lot of pain.

Very minor points (without seeing your videos, besides I'm no expert):

All of those things you are trying seem good, but how about hitting more through the ball (like you are hitting through 3-4 balls) as oposed to swinging hard?
And of course having a relaxed arm with no tension whatsover neither in your arm nor in your grip (to quote Boletierri) is also important.

That way you'll get effortless power (and even better placement/control).

As for strings and rackets I'm a big fan of shock absorbing material in frames (such as basalat aka BLX, or innegra aka IG) and full bed natural gut, the thinnest gauge and lower (or no higher then mid range) tensions.

For tennis elbow and such I would go as low as to 50-52 LBS with full bed premium natural gut (pre-stretched manually by an experienced stringer).

Cheers!

 

[Chas Tennis]

Ellenbecker Video on the Shoulder, Impingement Injury Risk and Serving

----duplicate post ------

 

[Chas Tennis]

Ellenbecker Video on the Shoulder, Impingement Injury Risk and Serving

The stroke that is usually associated with shoulder pain is the serve.

This video describes the issue -

I believe that serving with ISR is never forced and could cause injury if practiced incorrectly. Here are some known issues. With forceful and rapid ISR the small external shoulder rotator cuff muscles have to be conditioned to keep the ball of the humerus in place and to stop the arm rotation in the follow through. See recommended shoulder conditioning exercises. Easy, light exercises.

There are also the important safety issues related to technique such as the shoulder high orientation for the serve to minimize impingement risk. Just one very bad motion can cause injury.

1) Jim McLennan short video on the rotator cuff, impingement and serving
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lTRvxaBMh8s

2) Todd Ellenbecker video on shoulder anatomy, impingement, and serving. At about minute 8 he describes the same issue as McLennan but in more detail.
http://www.tennisresources.com/index.cfm?area=video_detail&vidid=3712&ATT=&reso=lo

If you are concerned because you are having pain, how can you determine that the technique that you use is OK? You have to study and know the proper technique and verify that you are doing it with high speed video or find a well qualified instructor. Keep in mind that the more rapid motions during the serve cannot be seen by eye or even 60 fps video so an instructor who uses HSV is a plus.

For high level serves based on the internal shoulder rotation technique, impingement is a known issue.

If you have shoulder problems you should stop playing until your shoulder is OK. When you get back to playing examine your technique with high speed video. 30 fps is OK to see shoulders positioning around impact but you probably have to do catch frames from several similar frames - a lot of unnecessary work and much more chance to misinterpret the frames.

Google: tennis serve impact images
compare your shoulder orientation to those in the images.

This issue discussed for poster's serves with many pictures.
Search TW 'Find Posts': camera behind Chas Tennis

I believe that I gave myself rotator cuff tears doing external shoulder rotations in the gym. I used weights that were too heavy, 25# on cables. External shoulder rotations, for small rotator cuff muscles, should be done for endurance using light resistance bands or light dumbbells at higher reps. Few pounds only.

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

Shoulder impingement and, possibly, other shoulder issues can arise from the forehand stroke particularly with high FHs and heavy topspin:

http://www.itftennis.com/scienceandmedicine/injury-clinic/tennis-injuries/impingement-syndrome.aspx
http://www.phillymag.com/be-well-philly/2010/06/22/top-5-ways-to-avoid-shoulder-tendonitis-in-tennis-and-squash-players/

As I suggested previously, prolific use of an open stance forehand can put added stress on the shoulder -- particularly if the FH stroke mechanics are not optimal.

http://www.usta.com/Improve-Your-Game/Player-to-Player/Techniques-and-Strokes/How_to_hit_with_proper_stance_to_avoid_arm_strain/
https://books.google.com/books?id=sZbVLzLr80kC&pg=PA72&lpg=PA72&dq=shoulder+pain+from+open+stance+forehand&source=bl&ots=h0ffA0F8wo&sig=BhmI4qMV6SO9ygBzb2Tg--esC4o&hl=en&sa=X&ei=JMCUVKv0JIH8oASgkIKQBA&ved=0CC0Q6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=shoulder%20pain%20from%20open%20stance%20forehand&f=false

 

[Bobo96]

What grip are you using for your forehand? Can't easily tell from your video. A higher frame rate and some views of your FH from the side would help us to see more detail. Cannot tell where you contact is wrt your body. If it is not far enough forward, it could put undue stress on your shoulder. Also, could not see much of your I/O forehand since you were out of frame for the most part.

Poly strings at high tension? If so, switch to a softer string at a lower tension. Which racket are you using? Wilson Blade of some sort?

Are you sure that you have TE and not GE? TE is associated with a 1-handed BH moreso than a forehand. Golfer's Elbow can result from gripping the racket too tightly. Your grip should be relaxed most of the time. If your grip size is too small (or too large) for you hand, this can be a problem. Excessive squeezing of the handle will create too much tension in the forearm which can result in forearm/elbow problems. It could also cause you to muscle the ball more which could result in other arm/shoulder problems as well.

Noticed that most/all of your FHs were hit with an open (semi-open) stance. This can possibly put more stress on your right hip and right shoulder. Try hitting some (1/3 or more) of your FHs with a neutral stance with a weight shift in to the ball. This could be easier on your hip and, perhaps, your shoulder. This is certainly worth trying. With your open stance shots, the weight shift does not happen until the follow-thru.

In the video I was using a conservative semi western grip, but I have to say closer to the time I hurt myself I was using closer to a western/ extreme semi western.

I was diagnosed with TE, and the pain was in that area. Actually though, serves were the stroke that really killed me when I had TE. I could hti forehands pretty hard on advil, but serves were excruciating. more recently I had a small case of what I believe to be GE, from doing too many pullups, and other weight training, and it was different from the pain I had with TE before. My right elbow is better though, now it is the shoulder.

Look, I used to have this shoulder-to-chest pain, which made me look hard into my technique.
Once I started extending my arm forward (Federer style) and then slapping the ball across only_after_extention, discomfort or pain was gone completely. I have to help with my feet a lot more on contact and follow through to compensate for linear/extended arm motion. But now there is no bent-arm-"hugging" on contact and follow through that would pinch my shoulder-chest because of forceful pronation.
If that makes any sense

And yes, what SystemicAnomaly said, I changed my grip to Federer style to allow for more freedom between the racquet and my hand, which lessens the torque for my wrist/elbow/shoulder
Check out pictures of Federer's and Nadal's grips and hands here:
http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=518469

I think I understand. Thanks for the advice.

Those issues you mentioned are usually caused by the serve, not the forehand.

The serve may have contributed, but it gets aggravated on my normal forehand as well. I think I hurt it on a forehand, but yes, I am sure the serve helped out

see a physio you can have complete confidence in and let them do their job is my advice

I don't know any physio that I can have complete trust in

 

[NLBwell]

I was using even more arm, and forcing it.. I was also doing more twisting stuff to get a lot of spin, as I had changed my game a little.

AAAAARRRRGGG! Of course your arm hurts if you are doing a lot of twisting stuff to get more spin.

As far as your video, it really looks like you are swinging hard. You shouldn't have to swing hard to get maximum velocity. The open-stance is used to counter-rotate your lower body to stretch it like a rotational rubber band. You really aren't getting much of this. It is more in your upper body as you left shoulder bails out away from the shot and you keep your right shoulder stretched backward. Can't say for sure about whether that is causing your injury since there are an infinite number of things it could be, but it could be a significant reason. Work more on keeping your upper body more relaxed, following your lower body and use more stretch rotation of you lower body and less leaping. This should help your stroke in any case.

 

[Chas Tennis]

.........................................................
I was diagnosed with TE, and the pain was in that area. Actually though, serves were the stroke that really killed me when I had TE. I could hti forehands pretty hard on advil, but serves were excruciating. more recently I had a small case of what I believe to be GE, from doing too many pullups, and other weight training, and it was different from the pain I had with TE before. My right elbow is better though, now it is the shoulder.
..............................................

Playing on a new tendon injury can cause farther damage and lead to chronic tendinosis.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1122566/

"Animal studies show that within two to three weeks of tendon insult tendinosis is present and inflammatory cells are absent."

Understand the difference between tendinitis (with inflammation) and tendinosis (defectively healed tendon tissue).

Tendinosis
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3445129/

Thread - Tendon Injury Nuthouse
http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=442912

Free, full on line research references (PMC database) from the National Center of Biotechnology Information (NCBI), a NIH database. Search for references on your injuries.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/?term=tennis+elbow

"Current Concepts in the Diagnosis and Treatment of Elbow Injuries" (2012), T. Ellenbecker
http://www.thera-bandacademy.com/el...13-sportshealth-elbow__635071763835825895.pdf