Holding/absorbing the ball

[Shroud]

Yes about acting, but not reacting in 4 ms. And 5 ms is a 25% increase of 4 ms.

seems like semantics. If you read what Collo wrote and what these other guys are saying they all seem to think you can influence the ball while its on the strings:

(from the OP) I'm an Australian tennis coach based in Singapore and for all beginners and rec players the biggest fundamental flaw I notice that prohibits this level on improving any stroke is the ability to hold/absorb the ball. Push and turn on the ball is key. Create the most resistance on the ball then accelerate with the most mass.

See, he is clearly talking about reacting to the ball or acting on the ball while its on the strings.

IMHO if you slow your swing or change the angle and win the collision less you can keep the ball on the strings longer, but no benefits in slowing the swing.

Anyhow if you have any studies that show its possible or that the pros keep the ball on the strings longer I would like to see that.

 

[Povl Carstensen]

Yes acting on the ball while it is on the strings. But not reacting.

 

[Shroud]

Yes acting on the ball while it is on the strings. But not reacting.

well any shot acts on the ball while it is on the strings, so there is nothing here

 

[Povl Carstensen]

Exactly, every shot acts on the ball. And different shots act differently.

 

[ByeByePoly]

Please ... begging you ... NO!!!!

 

[rogerroger917]

So can you absorb or not? I'm confused.

 

[ByeByePoly]

So can you absorb or not? I'm confused.

You would think counter punchers, and players with the racquet cover still on would be the best absorbers.

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

And 5 ms is a 25% increase of 4 ms.

It is but is it relevant? If it's taking 100ms for the sensation to get transmitted to my brain, will a 1ms buffer help? Probably not.

Not that I'm saying my 100ms # is correct. I'm merely posing the question of how to determine relevance.

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

players with the racquet cover still on would be the best absorbers.

You mean I'm supposed to remove that thing??

 

[ByeByePoly]

You mean I'm supposed to remove that thing??

I don't judge. {OMG that was a big fat lie}

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

I don't judge. {OMG that was a big fat lie}

So about the lens cap on a camera...

 

[ByeByePoly]

It is but is it relevant? If it's taking 100ms for the sensation to get transmitted to my brain, will a 1ms buffer help? Probably not.

Not that I'm saying my 100ms # is correct. I'm merely posing the question of how to determine relevance.

I think this thread has it backwards ... the best players are the most efficient at everything, including the time the ball is on the stringbed. Fed ... 1 ms max.

 

[user92626]

Well there are many things in this world where the logic is not obvious to some. This argument/debate about the use of open stance and hitting across the ball has raged on for over 100 yrs now. Just as you claim one style is polarizing, so too is the opposite (traditional training) just as polarizing.

We swing the racket across our body but we certainly do not hit across the ball, do we?

If the ball itself is hit across, it will go in the "across" direction. No?

 

[Shroud]

I think this thread has it backwards ... the best players are the most efficient at everything, including the time the ball is on the stringbed. Fed ... 1 ms max.

Thats essentially what I was saying. If you slow your swing it may stay on the stringbed longer but only @sureshs can handle a slow slow delicately slow swing. Weird how buffet Sureshs is a beast while tennis Sureshs is sooooo gentle.

 

[Povl Carstensen]

If it's taking 100ms for the sensation to get transmitted to my brain, will a 1ms buffer help? Probably not.

Still, this thread is not about reacting to the ball while it is on the strings. It is about how the ball and racket interact while it is on the strings. How the racket acts on the ball.

 

[Povl Carstensen]

We swing the racket across our body but we certainly do not hit across the ball, do we?

From the right angle, you can see a lot of side spin on a lot of pros top spin shots. The ball curves sideways.

 

[Povl Carstensen]

If you slow your swing it may stay on the stringbed longer but only

Actually, I do not think a slower swing would make the ball stay longer on the strings.

 

[Deleted member 742196]

Summary Pages 1 ~ 10

1/2

Yep, agree. Once you can move the ball with your hips, spine and shoulder all in one moment the effortless power is unlimited.

Every great player holds the ball, you have to or else you can't drive the ball with big muscles it's impossible. There are Some cool drills to show you to get better at absorbing the ball.

Maybe its the style of writing but this is confusing.

1st you say you dont hold the ball but then you say you wanna catch the ball. Is there a difference between holding and catching? If so what is it??

Here is another quote that hopefully make you understand -

"Because the racket actually holds back as the arm lifts upwards, we see that the role of the racket is to hold and grip the ball while the arm provides a solid counterforce that pushes and lifts upward. This discovery, that the role of the racket is not to hit the ball but to grip it, was discovered by Doug King. I find it to be the most profound insight into the modern game.

The point is if you don't grip the ball you can't use the body as the main force. You want to create the most mass on the ball.

If only you knew the feeling, I got most of my clients to catch the ball and accelerate on contact and the speed and power is no effort
all the big muscles of the body do all the work the hand is there to hold the and absorb.

A swim coach will say catch the water, same thing, like rowing also.

Yep I will take the the 5 milliseconds ha, the point is you wanna avoid any bounce off, capture the ball for those milliseconds and the control goes up massively. Whether it's 3 or 5 milliseconds

Maybe the OP's advice can work as teaching tool. But it doesn't describe what actually happens when top players hit the ball.

The racket generates the force. The muscles and the hand move the racket. The racket is what touches the ball.

It's absolutely a teaching tool. And a good one. But it's not the physics of it at all. The drive on the ball is from massive racket head speed. And everything that helps build it.

Ummm, people are miss-understanding. There has to be a element of absorbing the ball with the bat, racquet, the timing to create the most mass at contact. I'm talking about split seconds but you need to catch the ball big gears and small gears together in one moment.

Catching, absorbing, Holding, caressing, stroking, whichever word helps you understand that moment where you create a resistance on the ball to send it back with a greater force through the body and racquet together.

You would also have to phrase it in a way that DOES NOT ever encourage a player to decelerate into impact. Then be super vigilant about watching for it.

I would bet that often times you tell someone to "catch the ball" with there racket the inclination is to decelerate. And nothing, nothing nothing is worse for a stroke.

The more I think about it, the more I dislike catching the ball. Except on volleys. I like it there.

No no, another way to say it. Wait for the ball to be on your strings then rotate with the massive force of your hips, spine and shoulder.

Are you rotating before the ball or on the ball, time your mass with the ball and the speed and control is insane. Coil then time the uncoil with the ball. Then you you get amazing speed and drive

It's not up for debate--you can't do anything to alter anything in that moment of contact. You can't wait for the ball to be on the strings and then do something. You can believe you are doing this, but you can't. Believing you are doing it? Well if that helps with result sure.

And yeah Dad has a great point about the danger of deceleration. There is reality and then there are coaching cues. But we should try not to confuse the two.

No chance. Not for high level strokes. You absolutely can not wait for the ball to be "on your strings" to rotate. It's way more complicated then that. But simpler in a weird way. Just build RHS and let it fly.

This is where words chosen can be so important. I have learned a tremendous amount about the game from Doug. But using the catch analogy doesn't work for me. I agree with Pittsburgh dad here. It's about timing the lag, the coil, the pulling part of the stroke, however u want to describe that moment that then transitions into the drive. What about the compression of the ball? I'm not knowledgeable about this aspect of contact and the creation of energy.

Think of it this way, what's the most potential energy you can release into the ball. The speed and mass at one time. Wind/coil, then time the unwind/uncoil.

Now you just said a key word, collision, to hold, catch, need to avoid a direct collision with the ball. You get hold when you don't come direct at the ball. Food for thought for you

I would waste away with that food! Really? I need to sneak up on the ball?? Do i swing from the side or something?

Anyhow a collision is direct...

Yep spot on, do come from the side, the lower the level of player the more they line up directly with the ball for a direct collision. The better players de-align with the ball to get that touch and hold for those milioseconds.

Wow, alright tell you what. To help you understand the true contact on the ball i will do a quick little video demonstrating the difference. Direct collision vs non direct collision.
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Hey mate, I hear you. They just don't get it. I find it quite amazing they just don't grasp the concept of feel and touch with the ball.

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I like feeling the ball after the first and every subsequent strokes. Feel is important to me. Been watching your GIF every day at night to get inspiration.

In summary think of torque on the ball

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[Deleted member 742196]

2/2

The idea of timing the firing all of your body to produce the most racquet speed at impact is a solid one.

That is different than catching the ball. You can literally catch a ball with a racquet, but you have to absorb the energy of the ball and even bring the racquet backwards.

That of course is not a very good way to return a ball.

But there are good things that come from catching the ball. You have to concentrate on the ball. You have to watch the ball. You want your racquet ready and not be stabbing at the ball.

You put catching visualization and timing together you get a well hit ball hitting where you want on the racquet.

That like the video above where they talk about compressing the ball. You literally don't compress the ball but it is visualization tool to get you to have your racquet angled to you can produce top spin.

I don't think you have presented any life changing information on my part or for anyone who responded to this thread.

If you are a teacher you need to be thinking more and realise what everyone else posted here was true and often just the same thing said a different way.

If an instructor told me I simply didn't get it and kept telling me the same thing with the same words, I would demand my money back and walk out.

I do appreciate the catching the ball visulaization as a way for me to focus on the contact point.

Ok, Coil to the ball, then extend the front leg and pull the shoulder blades back on the ball. The quicker you straighten the body on the ball the racquet will shoot out faster

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Be one with the ball

No no, the whole point is if you can't hold the ball, you will never achieve touch. This isn't a holy grail this the art of contact on the ball.

Your either holding and absorbing the ball or its bouncing off the strings thus no control. So hard work with out getting the touch of the ball, your wasting time.

Your gliding the ball with power and sting.

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@collotennis, interestingly my coach has actually explained things similarly. That's why the sound of the ball coming off the stringbed of a pro's racquet is completely different than that of a rec players.

He is not hitting the ball, that's why he is actually got a nice stroke. His timing is great, he waits for the ball then once it's on the stings his body rotates.

That waiting and rotating is the key, I can see what is being done here. Hitting would be reaching out too far, doing something with the racquet before the ball touches the strings.

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Good morning zealots. First I would like John yandell to stop posting about my supposed embarrassment and his concerns about my reputation here. It's none of his business. And if this thread is so ridiculous, why not ignore it. Find another thread to promote tennisplayer.net . There are plenty of ongoing studies on how we incorporate our sense if touch into more sophisticated concepts like texture, shape and motion. Our hands are incredibly dense in sensory receptors, the fastest in the palm of the hand. Some sensors send and receive messages from the brain faster than others. If I get just one millisecond to act upon the ball at contact I will take. We are learning about how the Brain functions on an ongoing basis. Don't be so sure to write the zealot off yandell. Trump should be a good lesson in that regard.

Yeah, he did say that you can manipulate the ball when it's on the strings. That part I don't agree with.

It's hard to explain without being able to do it in person. Stringing low and hitting with the wrong technique would give you a bit of that feeling but the outcome would not be the same.

Have you tried practicing coming around the ball, it's what coaches mean when they want the student to shape the ball. The more shaping on the ball, coming around to the outside the more you will have a chance of gripping the ball. TRY IT

If you hit the ball too far in front and not to the side enough you have more of a direct collision and much harder to grip the ball as opposed to the side and in front which is more 45 degrees.

They would be the last people to be able to feel the ball in the dwell time, absorb it, and then change the plans accordingly.

Dude, that's totally a mini tennis ball!!! You can hear it on the bounce!

That aside, your forehand swing looks tidy - need to see it in 240fps or higher to have a chance of seeing the idea you are presenting, otherwise it looks like a decent regular swing.

Of course, if you are using this "theory" as an analogy or as part of a sensory based coaching method to help players develop better feel then good on you - if you genuinely believe that in 5 milliseconds you can feel the ball on the strings and then consciously accelerate the racquet we'd better have a little talk about human reaction times (avg around 279 milliseconds).

THOUGHT PROVOKING QUESTIONS:

Maybe its the style of writing but this is confusing.

1st you say you dont hold the ball but then you say you wanna catch the ball. Is there a difference between holding and catching? If so what is it??

Good post. What is the difference between hold and feel?

If you absorb all the balls, will they come out the next morning?

 

[Shroud]

2/2














THOUGHT PROVOKING QUESTIONS:

Pretty good job on the summary. Its a cluster for sure. Iirc he made a vid that failed miserably at explaining things. Funny part was when I posted a fh video hoping he could show me some examples in my own strokes, he pointed out an “uncontrolled bounce off” in one of my shots. Lol it was a framed shot...

Think Ash nailed it in his post about teaching tool vs what happens. Iirc the guy was teaching a course that Ash built or something like that.

 

[Shroud]

Actually, I do not think a slower swing would make the ball stay longer on the strings.

Why?

 

[Povl Carstensen]

Why?

A hard hit shot does more work to the ball. More deceleration/acceleration, compression of the ball, pocketing of the strings. I reckon that takes longer time than a soft tap.

 

[Povl Carstensen]

At the bottom of page 1, Collo writes:

Coil then time the uncoil with the ball.

Timing is not reacting, it is timing. Timing the late acceleration, as opposed to arming the ball, swinging too early. Not unlike the cue "massaging the ball", I quoted above. I think any cue that makes the player focus on the ball up untill contact, and on the quality of contact is good. But of course, that does not mean it is for everyone.

 

[Shroud]

A hard hit shot does more work to the ball. More deceleration/acceleration, compression of the ball, pocketing of the strings. I reckon that takes longer time than a soft tap.

Maybe. Though with more accel it should happen faster...more work in less time. Anyhow it should be easy to find some studies one would think.


Here is a link that talks about the disadvantages of increased dwell time:

http://www.tennis.com/gear/2012/05/string-theory-stringbeds-tension-and-performance/38597/

 

[ByeByePoly]

Maybe. Though with more accel it should happen faster...more work in less time. Anyhow it should be easy to find some studies one would think.


Here is a link that talks about the disadvantages of increased dwell time:

http://www.tennis.com/gear/2012/05/string-theory-stringbeds-tension-and-performance/38597/

This thread should go the way of the DoDo ... and that's being unfair to the DoDo. Who started this agan ... DUMBLIN!!!

 

[Shroud]

This thread should go the way of the DoDo ... and that's being unfair to the DoDo. Who started this agan ... DUMBLIN!!!

If I was the mod this place would be awesome and BBP would be using kevlar/zx, but at their own peril, no one asked Shroud.

 

[ByeByePoly]

If I was the mod this place would be awesome and BBP would be using kevlar/zx, but at their own peril, no one asked Shroud.

If you were the mod ... we would have a Monty Python forum.

 

[Deleted member 742196]

Pretty good job on the summary. Its a cluster for sure. Iirc he made a vid that failed miserably at explaining things. Funny part was when I posted a fh video hoping he could show me some examples in my own strokes, he pointed out an “uncontrolled bounce off” in one of my shots. Lol it was a framed shot...

Think Ash nailed it in his post about teaching tool vs what happens. Iirc the guy was teaching a course that Ash built or something like that.

You nailed it too, I’ve been sneaking up behind the ball ever since. Unbeatable strategy.

 

[Kevo]

I looked up some 1000fps video on YT and found a bunch of shots to count frames. They were all 4 to less than 5 frames of contact. It would be interesting if you could find a way to setup a frame so that it gave a longer contact time to see what would happen, but I'm not sure if you could make a substantial difference. You'd also need a decent slo mo camera and good lighting to measure the effects. In any case, you can't do anything about the contact when it happens. I tell my students frequently that the quality of their shot is mostly determined by the quality of their preparation. I can see a bad shot sometimes before the forward swing just by paying attention to the preparation. And once that forward swing starts there's very little you can do to fix a shot in mid swing.

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

@ByeByePoly

You mean I'm supposed to remove that thing??

Tennis is much too easy with the racquet cover off. Tho' real men play with this on the frame:

 

[Deleted member 742196]

I looked up some 1000fps video on YT and found a bunch of shots to count frames. They were all 4 to less than 5 frames of contact. It would be interesting if you could find a way to setup a frame so that it gave a longer contact time to see what would happen, but I'm not sure if you could make a substantial difference. You'd also need a decent slo mo camera and good lighting to measure the effects. In any case, you can't do anything about the contact when it happens. I tell my students frequently that the quality of their shot is mostly determined by the quality of their preparation. I can see a bad shot sometimes before the forward swing just by paying attention to the preparation. And once that forward swing starts there's very little you can do to fix a shot in mid swing.

I’ve been at this tennis thing for some time. What I’ve understood about myself is the less kinetic chain involved in the stroke, the more I will compensate at last minute by arm or even hand.

One of the reasons kids that learn tennis early end up having fluid strokes is when younger they have to look for ways to generate effortless power - don’t have the needed strength to just use the arm.

So yes preparation is key. Most rec players I see will be right there but only initiate the stroke when the ball has landed. In fact they don’t even decide what they’re going to do until well after the ball has landed at their end. Intention is missing.

No intent = no amount of preparation will help you.

 

[Deleted member 742196]

@ByeByePoly


Tennis is much too easy with the racquet cover off. Tho' real men play with this on the frame:

Real men let mosquitos have blood.

 

[ByeByePoly]

@ByeByePoly


Tennis is much too easy with the racquet cover off. Tho' real men play with this on the frame:

That is how they added swing weight before lead tape.

 

[Deleted member 742196]

That is how they added swing weight before lead tape.

Looks like a sort of implement used in a gladiator school.

 

[Shroud]

You nailed it too, I’ve been sneaking up behind the ball ever since. Unbeatable strategy.

LMAO!! Make sure you are sneaking with 2 hands on that racquet on both sides! Its the future

 

[Shroud]

That is how they added swing weight before lead tape.

I should put one on my Profile!

And when hassled just say, "whatever man! Clearly you know NOTHING about racquets"

 

[Povl Carstensen]

Maybe. Though with more accel it should happen faster...more work in less time. Anyhow it should be easy to find some studies one would think.


Here is a link that talks about the disadvantages of increased dwell time:

http://www.tennis.com/gear/2012/05/string-theory-stringbeds-tension-and-performance/38597/

Yes, may be. About the link we have been over this before. The thread is not about string tension etc., but about how you hit the ball.

 

[Shroud]

Yes, may be. About the link we have been over this before. The thread is not about string tension etc., but about how you hit the ball.

At some point it became about dwell time and since no one has produced any studies on dwell time from hitting the ball that i can recall, i linked something that was talking about dwell time and its disadvantages. Certainly you arent saying the dwell time from strings and dwell time from how you hit the ball behave differently?

 

[Povl Carstensen]

If you want to go around in circles, I can't stop you. I feel I have made my point on this subject. Of course you and others are welcome to do a search on my name in the thread and (re)read what I have said. If new subjects or questions arise, ofcourse I might answer.

 

[5263]

We swing the racket across our body but we certainly do not hit across the ball, do we?

If the ball itself is hit across, it will go in the "across" direction. No?

yes, or you could say there is a angular collision. Think of it not like a perfect T-bone impact in a car wreck, but instead, it's like catching the other car off center and making it spin and carooming off to one side. Like the impact here at 22 secs...

 

[5263]

Yes acting on the ball while it is on the strings. But not reacting.

My take is there are 2 ways to create that "holding the ball" technique. The first is by coming to the ball slower, and holding off when you accelerate to sweep across to take the ball....the 2nd is by meeting ball off center with the racket angled, so that the ball moves just a fraction more across the strings,

 

[user92626]

From the right angle, you can see a lot of side spin on a lot of pros top spin shots. The ball curves sideways.

yes, or you could say there is a angular collision. Think of it not like a perfect T-bone impact in a car wreck, but instead, it's like catching the other car off center and making it spin and carooming off to one side. Like the impact here at 22 secs...

If a lot of side spin (ball curving sideway) is what you want, then yes, hit horizontally across the ball.

But, this isn't the run of the mill topspin shot that players do in typical exchange, is it?

The ball is most commonly hit in its vertical stretch, producing a lot of topspin.

 

[5263]

If a lot of side spin (ball curving sideway) is what you want, then yes, hit horizontally across the ball.

But, this isn't the run of the mill topspin shot that players do in typical exchange, is it?

The ball is most commonly hit in its vertical stretch, producing a lot of topspin.

There are infinite ways to spin the topspin, but basically 2 for inside and 2 for the outside. Hitting more horizontally for a severe side to the topspin along with hitting more over the top for a far less severe side tilt to the topspin. The way the body is constructed doesnt fit well with hitting strongly directly over the top, so if your intent is to do this, it tends to degrade the swing to some extent. This is why on most of the strongest and best strokes we can see the ball fade and draw to some extent fairly consistently....even though I'm pretty sure most of them have learned what is a good swing by hitting millions of balls, and not being instructed on what we discuss here. The players who rise must all learn this thru experience or coaching, because those who don't get it, won't rise to the top of the game. If you go to a pro match like the US Open and get close on the court end, you can see how most all of the balls will tail off to the side due to this issue.

 

[bigservesofthands]

My take is there are 2 ways to create that "holding the ball" technique. The first is by coming to the ball slower, and holding off when you accelerate to sweep across to take the ball....the 2nd is by meeting ball off center with the racket angled, so that the ball moves just a fraction more across the strings,

It is a considerable fraction more in my experience. Order of twice more in certain string bed setups. Allows for flatter 100+ mph groundstrokes with plenty of margin to keep the ball in because of the amount of top spin that is generated.

 

[5263]

It is a considerable fraction more in my experience. Order of twice more in certain string bed setups. Allows for flatter 100+ mph groundstrokes with plenty of margin to keep the ball in because of the amount of top spin that is generated.

I agree, but so many want to argue that their "studies show"...etc..., lol.
But I know with zero doubt I've hit heavy top at times where I clipped lightly across the frame, all the way down the strings, then clipped lightly on the opposite side frame. While I realize this is near the most extreme case, none the less it illustrates the broad range of movement possible across the strings.

 

[TennisPinkBabe]

C'mon, the ball rolling across the entire string bed? Not happening.

 

[Kevo]

I'd be interested to see what actually happens to the ball on those clipped both sides of the frame shots. I know I've done that a few times before, but I'd be surprised if the ball actually contacts the strings all the way across, but maybe it's possible in a rare case.

 

[richard dumoulin]

Guys, this woman says she recognizes when someone is good when he catches the ball

 

[5263]

I'd be interested to see what actually happens to the ball on those clipped both sides of the frame shots. I know I've done that a few times before, but I'd be surprised if the ball actually contacts the strings all the way across, but maybe it's possible in a rare case.

I agree and don't think it touches more than a quarter of the string face (just guessing), but it does illustrate a more aggressive move across the string plane and Imo, that it isn't really so much about how many strings are touched.

 

[user92626]

Exactly, every shot acts on the ball. And different shots act differently.

So like.. every shot is an actor and the ball is the stage? Some shots are funny and some are just sad. Right?


Volleyball already starred in a movie with a big star.