sharpilistik
Banned
So, in order to maintain the thumb wrist through the stroke, I have to let gravity drop the racket right away at the height of takeback?
How can I improve my forehand? video
- Thread starter sharpy
- Start date
So, in order to maintain the thumb wrist through the stroke, I have to let gravity drop the racket right away at the height of takeback?
Well, in a forehand with proper unit turn and body sequence, you can hold it there when you're setting up the shot. It should feel natural. Usually the racquet is still well dropping when you initiate the forward swing with your body. It's just that you don't actively/consciously push the shoulder further back once you've already reached the top of the takeback. A bit hard to explain but it makes intuitive sense if you practice a few swings. Goes with the idea of your arm moving as one unit.
sharpilistik
Banned
I'll go out there tommorow and try the stroke. And i'll just post a quick video. Most likely it'll be categorized as a 'push.' I could swear agassi pivots around the forearm after height of takeback, atleast i think so after watching the clips. But obviously this would break the thumb wrist.
Now that im thinking about it, it kind of sucks having to go back a few steps. Should of learned those ww basics first, even though my current stroke is nearly technically perfect, theres days i feel like im hitting the ball like it was a crazy whip, other days the ball/racket interaction feels like im hitting a solid stone.
Actually, yeah, he does a little bit, because his back shoulder starts above the front. Then once the back shoulder dips below the front, it stops pivoting. Roddick does this a little bit, again because the back shoulder is above the front. You'll notice that both guys hit the ball with a strong double-bend. Personally, I don't view either as a "model" WW FH, *but* functionally they do the job.
adrianwansk
New User
your swing is using too much of your wrist, which is done in badminton, try do a bigger back swing so it is more of a tennis swing
sharpilistik
Banned
Tricky,
I have a question relating to the slingshot fh.
What's the difference between the "scooping" elbow and the "dragging" elbow at the forward swing you refer to at c11 c12?
BTW, here's a video I found, looks alot like the federer model. His forward swing looks alot different than mine, (dragging?)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vFog8sFFVos&feature=user
I have a question relating to the slingshot fh.
What's the difference between the "scooping" elbow and the "dragging" elbow at the forward swing you refer to at c11 c12?
BTW, here's a video I found, looks alot like the federer model. His forward swing looks alot different than mine, (dragging?)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vFog8sFFVos&feature=user
Won't be able to look at the Youtube link until much later. (YT is blocked here)
Basically the difference between a normal forward swing (scoop) and when you have to hit a very high ball (drag.)
Normally, as the hitting arm comes forward, the arm (usually around the elbow) tends to dip a little bit before going down-to-up. Or "scoop." It's just a natural part of the stroke, and it aids in opening up the racquet face properly.
However, when you drag the hitting arm (for example, if you try to hit a ball above your shoulder), then your arm/elbow doesn't dip when it starts to come forward. This doesn't feel as natural because it feels like you've kinda "cut off" the bottom part your normal swing. It forces the wrist (or rather the torque of the racquet around the wrist) to do ALL the work in opening up the racquet face.
sharpilistik
Banned
really? wow. I thought it was exactly like fed's. Does this scooping stuff actually affect anything?? he hits a really good ball
sharpilistik
Banned
also in that particular stroke, if you were to drag the racket in a straight line as you said without correcting the face, it would seem like you were going to bring the side frame edge of the racket, rather than the strings to the ball??? how strange is that?
Oh I know. There's a lot of counterintuitive stuff that goes with this swing. But it ended up teaching me a lot of how FH mechanics work, because it's such a unique approach to loading the stroke.
The short answer is "yes."
What he does will give him good pace and depth, but it will limit his wiping action.
Forearm supination during racquet drop + Scooping the forward swing = Optimal wiping action (what most people instinctively do)
Forearm pronation during racquet drop + Dragging the forward swing = Optimal wiping action
Mismatching the two = Forearm rotation becomes very constricted, leading to less wiping action <== your predicament
sharpilistik
Banned
Oh I know. There's a lot of counterintuitive stuff that goes with this swing. But it ended up teaching me a lot of how FH mechanics work, because it's such a unique approach to loading the stroke.
The short answer is "yes."
What he does will give him good pace and depth, but it will limit his wiping action.
Forearm supination during racquet drop + Scooping the forward swing = Optimal wiping action (what most people instinctively do)
Forearm pronation during racquet drop + Dragging the forward swing = Optimal wiping action
Mismatching the two = Forearm rotation becomes very constricted, leading to less wiping action <== your predicament
Im assuming that guy falls in a similar predicament? But he's a satellite player, so his fh cant be that bad!
Im just wondering, what type of fh do you personally use? Im guessing you're a pretty good player.
Pretty much the slingshot, but nothing of the straight-arm forward swing stuff. That's great in practice, but in game situation uhhh . . .
Oh no doubt, he probably has a powerful flat-ish shot, and the way he sets up his racquet drop looks otherwise perfect. Also, his footwork and unit turn are all perfect. So like you, his shot may not be quite as heavy as it should be, but he doesn't have problems with mishits.
The "slingshot" FH is really ingenious stuff. If you ever get it working, you'll experience a "holy ####" moment because it lets you hit really heavy shots without much effort.
Oh no doubt, he probably has a powerful flat-ish shot, and the way he sets up his racquet drop looks otherwise perfect. Also, his footwork and unit turn are all perfect. So like you, his shot may not be quite as heavy as it should be, but he doesn't have problems with mishits.
The "slingshot" FH is really ingenious stuff. If you ever get it working, you'll experience a "holy ####" moment because it lets you hit really heavy shots without much effort.
Tricky,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vFog8sFFVos&feature=user
Why is his shot not as heavy as it should be? Is it because he dropped his right arm too much at the forward swing (thus, not dragging the right arm aka a flatter swing path)?
What exactly is "patting the dog at last second"?
I've tried both and found that dropping the right arm created more topspin, while not dropping the arm as much (only the racket head) created a bit more velocity but less topspin and lesser net clearance. Not sure which produces a heavier ball.
For me, I found that the heaviness of the ball comes the racket head trailing the laid-back wrist trailing the shoulder approaching the POC. Is this the "slingshot" FH you're referring to? I thought this was the "pull" FH?
Your input please.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vFog8sFFVos&feature=user
Why is his shot not as heavy as it should be? Is it because he dropped his right arm too much at the forward swing (thus, not dragging the right arm aka a flatter swing path)?
What exactly is "patting the dog at last second"?
I've tried both and found that dropping the right arm created more topspin, while not dropping the arm as much (only the racket head) created a bit more velocity but less topspin and lesser net clearance. Not sure which produces a heavier ball.
For me, I found that the heaviness of the ball comes the racket head trailing the laid-back wrist trailing the shoulder approaching the POC. Is this the "slingshot" FH you're referring to? I thought this was the "pull" FH?
Your input please.
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sharpilistik
Banned
Pretty much the slingshot, but nothing of the straight-arm forward swing stuff. That's great in practice, but in game situation uhhh . . .
Oh no doubt, he probably has a powerful flat-ish shot, and the way he sets up his racquet drop looks otherwise perfect. Also, his footwork and unit turn are all perfect. So like you, his shot may not be quite as heavy as it should be, but he doesn't have problems with mishits.
The "slingshot" FH is really ingenious stuff. If you ever get it working, you'll experience a "holy ####" moment because it lets you hit really heavy shots without much effort.
Yes. I'll tell you about that holy **** moment. There's times where im literally hitting the ball like a pro, people a block away could hear the pop.
Most of the time though its some dull contact and mishitty.
It's when you can get the Safin boom! sound regularly that I expect my payment to come through the mail. Just make the $9.99 to www.heavyballs.com.
Yeah, that's the basic mechanics of a "pull" stroke, and it produces the textbook WW FH.
A key mechanical element in this FH is that during the transition from the backswing to forward swing, the forearm passively supinates (i.e. wrist lays back) due to the torque of the racquet stretching the wrist flexors. This triggers a ballistic/explosive effect with the forearm rotation.
The more the wrist is allowed to lay back during the transition, the more and accelerated the wiping action you'll get. You have 3 basic takeback styles, all related to the forearm rotation during racquet drop.
1) The basic style (similar to Agassi) is to not let the forearm rotate at all during the racquet drop, and to do a normal scooping swing. Often the wrist is mildly laid back through the takeback, and the racquet frame is relatively on edge. This produces less and slower wiping movement, though it's still pretty big.
2) A "sidearm/throwing" style (Safin and majority of players) is to allow the forearm to supinate during the racquet drop, and to do a normal scooping swing during the transition. One visualization for this technique is to "pat the dog", where usually the palm arrive about parallel with the ground before you initiate the forward swing. (Then the scooping motion aids in opening up the racquet face while the wrist lays back.) The wrist lays back violently in this stroke, producing explosive wiping movement as well as improved swing speed.
3) A "slingshot" style (Federer,Nadal) is to allow the forearm to pronate during the racquet drop, and to drag the swing forward during the transition. This is the "wristiest" of the three, and it produces the most wiping action. There's a unique side effect where the arm straightens out, which increases swing speed. Most swings use primarily shoulder rotation to accelerate the hitting arm. However, in this style, elbow/forearm deviation (toward the midline, which is desirable) is also well loaded, so both shoulder and elbow work together to "sling" the hitting arm toward the ball. This enables somebody to produce improved depth and high swing speed without needing to take big cuts at the ball.
In addition to the above, you have two basic forward swing styles -- the default "tucked" version as well as the more glamorous "straight-arm" style. Because a lot of people associate Federer's FH with the straight-arm forward swing, when somebody says "I hit a forehand like Federer's", they're really saying "my FH has a big straight-arm forward swing." However, a lot of players (like Federer) use both, and the forward swing style and the takeback style are interchangeable. Meaning you can hit an impressive straight-arm shot with a basic takeback, and you can have a normal tucked style using a slingshot takeback.
Finally, you have the issue with shoulder orientation. Many people with a pull FH maintain a higher left/front shoulder (Federer, Safin, Haas) through the entire takeback. However, some people (i.e. many of the big flat hitters) like Agassi, Joker, Baghdatis, Roddick, Hewitt, Nalby, and Gonzo (possibly Blake too) start with a higher right/back shoulder, and then let the back shoulder dip back under.
I think this is what some people call a "drive FH", because it enables you to really, really load the shoulder. You can pick up people who use this style, in that at POC, they have a stronger bend in the elbow (given same grip), and they tend to have less wiper movement (again given same grip.) This is not necessarily always the case, though. It's just that in this stroke, you have to make the call whether you want to have a lot of depth and pace with the shot, or a lot of spin with the shot. However, is still a "pull" FH with windshield wiper action.
So, altogether without considering grip or finish, you can break the "pull FH" into 12 different variations.
I'm thinking that you're probably doing step 2. Now it should be noted that most people who believe they're doing a Federer-style FH, are really doing step 2. That's, again, because they primarily concentrate on the straight-arm FH, and step 2 will accomplish Federer's racquet face being parallel to the ground very late in the take-back. It's only when you watch the takeback from the side that you really notice how odd it is, the way the arm does not move in a symmetrical loop (or figure 8) or how the racquet face remains at a certain closed angle through 75% of the racquet drop.
In any case, when swung with step 2, if you try dragging the swing, this will put your forearm at a certain angle that will inhibit the forearm from supinating passively Also, you'll notice that the wrist doesn't lay back as much as it should prior to POC.
Dasto is a really special exception. He's not only a big Federer fan, but he may be the only guy on Youtube who actually succeeded at executing Federer's step 3 takeback. When he says he modeled his stroke after Federer, it's impressive.
But, for that same reason, he has the opposite problem. Because he's not dragging his swing after the pronated takeback, the scooping motion puts his forearm in a position that will inhibit passive supination during the transition. Also, he doesn't get the benefit of the "slinging" action from the elbow, even though his arm correctly stretched out in the takeback. Instead, what he gets is a forward swing with a big arc, as if he setup a big swing from the beginning. This does deliver power, but it's not the same thing. Had he used a normal traditional takeback, he probably hits the ball bigger and with much more spin.
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sharpilistik
Banned
It's when you can get the Safin boom! sound regularly that I expect my payment to come through the mail. Just make the $9.99 to www.heavyballs.com.
Haha.. looks like I won't be paying you any time soon :twisted:
But if I ever do, i'll gladly pay.
Tricky - thanks for the response. I feel bad asking you a question because you're so thorough and thus had to compose a thesis-like response. I really appreciate this.
However, I feel like a ****** because I read your response like half a dozen times and I'm still confused between 2 & 3. Maybe if I describe to you my FH, this would help clear things up for me.
I'm using an extreme-eastern forehand grip
At the end of my unit turn (I'm facing the right fence):
1) My left shoulder is above my right shoulder
2) The racket head is above the right wrist, and the racket face (the side that will hit the ball) is tilted down towards the ground at about 75-degrees (in other words, the hitting side is facing the RIGHT fence, but not quite parallel to the right fence)
3) The racket head is in front and above the right wrist (the racket head is pointing towards the net)
At the racket drop
1) The racket head moves like a "windshield wiping" action from front to back - the racket head used to be ahead of and above the right wrist is now behind and below the right wrist. To do this I MUST SUPINATE (clockwise) my forearm. In other words, the racket butt used to point at the back fence at the end of the unit turn, but now it is pointing at the net. Again, for this to be possible, I MUST supinate. If you PRONATE (counter-clockwise) your forearm at this step, the racket head would still be in FRONT of the body and in FRONT of your right wrist (racket head would point at the ground), and the racket butt would be pointing at the sky.
2) After supination, the racket head is pointing towards the right bottom corner of the court and is FURTHER away from the body (further away from the right side of my body)
3) At the same time, the entire right arm drops (the right armpit closes a bit)
At the beginning of my forward swing
1) The racket head is pointed towards the right bottom corner of the court
2) The racket head is still behind the wrist, but now it is not pointing towards the right bottom corner as before. Now the racket head is directly pointing at the back fence (in other words, the racket head has move CLOSER to my body)
3) The racket face (the side that will hit the ball) is not quite parallel to the ground because I'm using the extreme-eastern grip (had I used the western grip, the hitting face would be parallel to the ground).
4) The right thumb is pointing towards the ground (a conscious effort on my part)
To the POC
1) I'm dragging the racket towards the POC with a loose grip (consciously trying to maintain the right thumb pointing towards the ground, and the racket face (hitting side) as close to parallel to the ground as possible, AS LONG AS possible)
2) The racket head reaches out FURTHER to my RIGHT side (right armpit opens up more than before) and to the front of my body as it approaches the point of contact (the racket head is still below my right wrist)
3) At the POC, my right palm is parallel to the net or perpendicular to the ground (the racket face is still slightly closed due to my extreme-eastern grip)
4) From the beginning of the forward swing to the POC, I do NOT pronate or supinate my right forearm at all. At least, I don't consciously do it. The racket face just opens up naturally (but still slightly closed at the POC) because my right arm is moving forward and upward to meet the ball in front of my body.
5) If you put a camera ABOVE my head, and if you trace the tip of my racket, you would come up with the way you would draw number 8
After POC and follow-through
1) slightly after or during or slightly before the POC (I can't really tell), I would pronate (counter clockwise) my forearm (like palming the ball) so that I can finish under the left armpit level.
So here is a dilemma for you: I think you must supinate (clockwise) the forearm at the beginning of the forward swing. I think you can pronate AND THEN supinate (such as this example of Djokovic's FH). But pronation without supination at the racket drop is impossible to complete the forehand.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PbsQ8gZLWyc
Your thoughts? The Djokovic's clip is just a pronate/supinate example. I'm more interested in the Federer FH because mine does look more similar to Federer's.
Or I might just have completely mis-interpreted your post altogether.
Sorry for a bunch of edits.
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sharpilistik
Banned
What a great discussion. Its nice to have someone join in and get confused with all this nutty terminology as well. welcome to the party.
Hmm . . . I think I was wrong about Joker's FH. It's more like Safin's stroke. He pronates to height of takeback (like Safin), then he supinates. I think I misread it because I haven't been looking at strong SW FH swings lately.
Hmmm . . .depends on what you mean. True, the forearm has to supinate at some point in order for the racquet face to properly open. BUT, this can be done entirely by the torque of the racquet correcting around the wrist. Active supination by the person (by the elbow finished its loop motion or "scooping") is not required. It sounds crazy; naturally, you'd think that you'll end up hitting the ball with your frame. But the wrist allows the racquet to open up on its accord. Now, whether this is actually desirable depends on the stroke itself.
Sounds solid. Pull stroke.
Hmm, it sounds like you just switched from "pull" to "push." Is the right thumb parallel with the forearm? If so, it's now resembling a WTA-style stroke.
Yeah, this sounds like a push stroke. So, in your example . . .
If the forearm supinates in a push stroke, the forearm is probably also pivoting around the elbow. That is why the racket head moves from ahead of wrist to behind wrist.
if the forearm pronates in a push stroke, the elbow is probably hooking upwards. This will lead to racket butt starting to point toward sky.
Also, I imagine your arm should be nearly straight. This is similar to how Sharpy's stroke used to be too.
Yeah, that's part of the push stroke. When the forward swing begins, the elbow (which is far away as you pointed) tucks back into the body.
Yeah, the dragging forward wouldn't be such a great idea with this stroke. The power would be good, but not much spin.
Yeah, that's fine.
What you have overall are mechanics for a push stroke. So things get reversed there. It's . . uhh, complicated.
Hmmm . . .depends on what you mean. True, the forearm has to supinate at some point in order for the racquet face to properly open. BUT, this can be done entirely by the torque of the racquet correcting around the wrist. Active supination by the person (by the elbow finished its loop motion or "scooping") is not required. It sounds crazy; naturally, you'd think that you'll end up hitting the ball with your frame. But the wrist allows the racquet to open up on its accord. Now, whether this is actually desirable depends on the stroke itself.
Sounds solid. Pull stroke.
Hmm, it sounds like you just switched from "pull" to "push." Is the right thumb parallel with the forearm? If so, it's now resembling a WTA-style stroke.
Yeah, this sounds like a push stroke. So, in your example . . .
If the forearm supinates in a push stroke, the forearm is probably also pivoting around the elbow. That is why the racket head moves from ahead of wrist to behind wrist.
if the forearm pronates in a push stroke, the elbow is probably hooking upwards. This will lead to racket butt starting to point toward sky.
Also, I imagine your arm should be nearly straight. This is similar to how Sharpy's stroke used to be too.
Yeah, that's part of the push stroke. When the forward swing begins, the elbow (which is far away as you pointed) tucks back into the body.
Yeah, the dragging forward wouldn't be such a great idea with this stroke. The power would be good, but not much spin.
Yeah, that's fine.
What you have overall are mechanics for a push stroke. So things get reversed there. It's . . uhh, complicated.
Tricky,
EUREKA! It sounds like you've accurately predicted my FH mechanics and results. I've always thought that my FH was the "pull" + "sling shot" FH. Now, I'm more confused than ever.
So now, I'm trying to execute the "pull" + "sling shot" FH according to your description and have a very difficult time visualizing it and doing it. I'm very confused right now.
It sounds like we're on the same page at the end of the unit turn (I'm facing the right fence):
1) My left shoulder is above my right shoulder
2) The racket head is above the right wrist, and the racket face (the side that will hit the ball) is tilted down towards the ground at about 75-degrees (in other words, the hitting side is facing the RIGHT fence, but not quite parallel to the right fence)
3) The racket head is in front and above the right wrist (the racket head is pointing towards the net)
I think I would understand the movements/mechanics of the "pull" + "sling shot" better if you can describe the position+direction of the racket head and the racket hitting side in relation to the body, court, ground, fence, etc., AFTER the unit turn THROUGH POC using the EASTERN grip (as I did in my description of my forehand).
Many thanks in advance!!!
EUREKA! It sounds like you've accurately predicted my FH mechanics and results. I've always thought that my FH was the "pull" + "sling shot" FH. Now, I'm more confused than ever.
So now, I'm trying to execute the "pull" + "sling shot" FH according to your description and have a very difficult time visualizing it and doing it. I'm very confused right now.
It sounds like we're on the same page at the end of the unit turn (I'm facing the right fence):
1) My left shoulder is above my right shoulder
2) The racket head is above the right wrist, and the racket face (the side that will hit the ball) is tilted down towards the ground at about 75-degrees (in other words, the hitting side is facing the RIGHT fence, but not quite parallel to the right fence)
3) The racket head is in front and above the right wrist (the racket head is pointing towards the net)
I think I would understand the movements/mechanics of the "pull" + "sling shot" better if you can describe the position+direction of the racket head and the racket hitting side in relation to the body, court, ground, fence, etc., AFTER the unit turn THROUGH POC using the EASTERN grip (as I did in my description of my forehand).
Many thanks in advance!!!
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Ahh, this will be very difficult to convey, because differences between "push" and "pull" also reflect how the body is used. But here is the basic stuff:
Okay, with that, here we go . . .
At the height of takeback, you want
At the racquet drop
At the beginning of forward swing
To the POC (Drag swing)
After POC and follow-through
This is very helpful.
The key here (according to my interpretation) is the EXTREMELY LOOSE right wrist before the dragging motion. Thus, NO NEED TO CONSCIOUSLY thinking about moving the racket from front of the wrist to behind the wrist. Before, I was consciously doing this during the beginning of my dragging motion.
As Tricky wrote: "Because the racquet head is in front of the right wrist and right arm, any kind of forward motion with the hitting arm will cause the racquet head to "pivot" around a loose wrist and eventually end up behind the right wrist and right arm."
I think I finally understand this transitioning phase of the racket in front of + above the right wrist to the racket behind + below the right wrist. I will incorporate this into my swing.
Many thanks to Tricky and Sharpy and countless others for this thread!!! Love you guys!!!
The key here (according to my interpretation) is the EXTREMELY LOOSE right wrist before the dragging motion. Thus, NO NEED TO CONSCIOUSLY thinking about moving the racket from front of the wrist to behind the wrist. Before, I was consciously doing this during the beginning of my dragging motion.
As Tricky wrote: "Because the racquet head is in front of the right wrist and right arm, any kind of forward motion with the hitting arm will cause the racquet head to "pivot" around a loose wrist and eventually end up behind the right wrist and right arm."
I think I finally understand this transitioning phase of the racket in front of + above the right wrist to the racket behind + below the right wrist. I will incorporate this into my swing.
Many thanks to Tricky and Sharpy and countless others for this thread!!! Love you guys!!!
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Yup, great thread. Thanks for starting it (I'm assuming sharpilistik = sharpy)!!!
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Well, that really depends what you're trying to do.
Swinging up would generate topspin; the ball would go from low to high and drop back down...kind of like an upside down parabola.
Swinging across your body is usually for balls that are from your chest height to your shoulders; the ball would go from the contact point to the ground.
There are also swings where you swing with the racquet at head height, down and across your shoulder for balls that are shoulder height and higher.
Ofcourse...in a perfect world where everyone is ready and in the correct position to hit a ball, swinging from low to high would generate the most pace/spin using the least amount of energy.
Also, people who likes to flatten out their shots would also swing across their body.
Yeah, it feels very wristy (though there's no wrist snapping or anything like that; it's still very controlled.)
Now, compared to "push" strokes, pull FHs all tend to feel more wristy, because during the transition, the racquet head starts in front of the hand, then behind it, then back in front of it. In "push", as you've noticed, the racquet head is already behind the hand and just needs to come forward.
Just wanted to add that this drag swing is made for this specific kind of takeback.
Most pull or WW FHs have a more normal scooping motion of the FH. There's still a lot of wrist that goes on, but not to this extreme.
Hi Tricky -
Can you please confirm ? When doing the slingshot style, the sequence goes
1) pronate forearm during the racquet drop portion of takeback loop
2) at the bottom of the drop, passively supinate by initiating forward swing
3) forearm pronates due to stretch reflex upon windshield wiping
sharpilistik
Banned
This one is a little change than the usual format.
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I just set up an account: trickykid123@gmail.com
sharpilistik
Banned
sent............
rosewall4ever
Semi-Pro
you probably guess that your form is ugly...learn the classic eastern forehand before going western and you'll improve a hell a lot better! seriously begineers should never start with 'pro' style.
sharpilistik
Banned
10char....
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