How does Federer do his unique "slingshot" forehand? Anybody else can do that too?

Golden Retriever

Hall of Fame
Federer 's forehand is unique in the way that it really does resemble a slingshot. The racquet literally holds the ball for a fraction of a second and shoots it at the target. Never have I seen anyone who holds the ball as long as Federer does. Is that some kind of unique wrist work? Or is it the racquet doing the trick?
 
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Deleted member 6835

Guest
search around, but i think its because of the racket strung at ~48 lbs, more dwell time. however obviously federer is talented. the other factor is probably his laser vision. Breakpoint made a thread about it somewhere (forget where, though you can find it by searching) about how most tennis players (pro's or average players) can only watch the ball till about a foot before impact, whereas federer watches it right till its on the stringbed, which helps him aim it where ever he wants to.

other than the above im not sure, maybe he's just too genious for us, or its his wrist :D
 

Bjorn99

Hall of Fame
I could tell you, but there IS something radical that he has come up with, and I am teaching a couple of kids that are doing it, and THEY don't want me sharing it with anyone. None of the supposed experts have figured it out yet, and all I will say is don't watch the actual contact, watch what happens PRIOR to the contact. It is a micro evolution in a game that is starting to reach its zenith point in terms of EVOLUTION.

There is a coach that has in my mind, correctly figured out the next microevolutioniary changes to COME and my two kids are doing that as well. They are training in relative obscurity vis a vis the Williams sisters and hopefully it will result in some interesting results.

I have coached two world champions from beginner status in another sport, so I do know a thing or two about player development. But NO guarantees. I will say that THERE will be better players than Federer in the future, SO he had better enjoy his present status. I sure enjoy watching him, but except for his serve and forehand, am modeling superior technique for the other shots. Which to date, no player has exhibited in the last twenty years.


But as many tennis experts know, most games being played now, were on display way back when when people like Lenglen, Tilden, Billy Johnson etc.... were playing. So look to the past AS well as the future.

The actual fellow responsible for the technique we are employing was the fellow who guided Phil Nickelson's swing coach to change Phil's technique a year ago.
 

AJK1

Hall of Fame
Federer is hitting the ball with the racquet head tilted forward at about 8 degrees, most coaches teach you to hit the ball with the racquet face perpendicular to the ball, but Feds tilts his. He then pronates his arm at contact and finishes midway across his body in the follow through. It looks like he's hitting it flat, but he creates huge topspin, and can hit winners easily with it.
 

Bjorn99

Hall of Fame
Total truth, but in this world we live in, I understand that it may come off as pretty hard to stomach. The truth is resisted more than anything else, always has. Anyways, do you have anything to contribute or are you just the resident troll? Is there an ignore feature here?

Must be pretty hard coming from a country that hasn't EVER had a player except for Fred Perry who was basically embarassed to be British. And must be even tougher to watch a Scot coming on. Keep a stiff upper lip mate, and an even stiffer mind. LOL.
 

Nextman916

Professional
Bjorn seriously you are the wierdest *** person ive ever met in my entire life. Stop trying to sound intelligent and act like you know what your saying, your choice of words in context makes absolutely no sense. You capitalize words that have no significant meaning, and run on sentences without commas. Not to mention your whole entire post didnt make a damn bit of sense even if typed correctly. Its like your fantasizing in your own world when you type, ill bet your some 12 yr old brat with ADD to the extreme.
 

Bjorn99

Hall of Fame
Yikes, another troll hollow. Pretty blocked crowd here. Hopefully there a few people who overstand around here.
 

looseswing

Professional
Bjorn99 said:
Yikes, another troll hollow. Pretty blocked crowd here. Hopefully there a few people who overstand around here.

Bjorn if you know something that might answer GR's question just say it instead of leading on like you can teach us to have a Fed level forehand in a day. Otherwise stop making crap up.
 

Marius_Hancu

Talk Tennis Guru
One piece of advice: hit further away from your body, with a more extended arm (at the elbow).

More leverage. Elementary, but Fed's one of very few doing this.

Get more flexible from heels up. Do lots of shadow disk throwing with light weights, surgical tubing, etc.
 

Bjorn99

Hall of Fame
Look, DO YOU SEE Federer telling anybody what he is doing? He is doing something quite different than anyone else right now. I am quite good at breaking things down, but even I have to admit that it was this other fellow that I network with, that finally broke down what he is doing. It is obvious to me NOW, but I don't honestly think I would have come up with it.

Besides the strange hitting spot and the strange reaction of the racquet to the ball, notice how quickly his racquet turns over the ball. Almost surreal, almost makes you want to say IMPOSSIBLE. I am sorry, if the kids that I was teaching were not so adamant about keeping it a secret, then I would say more. But they are paying the bucks so.................


I will say one thing more, don't get so hung up on modeling other peoples strokes, AS I don't see anyone modeling Agassi's strokes or Connor's. Or Mcenroes. It is unfortunate that we see so many strokes that are so similar now, that is a case of coaches modeling all over the planet, and these national programs where all the kids are modeled by the age of five or six now.


True innovators and champions, model a little but come up with something UNIQUE on their own. Almost like they were born to BE. And that is what makes sports and champions intriguing. Even if we ALL understood Federer's forehand, I don't think he would be too worried about it.


And who here said Nadal was faster than Federer? Surely you jest? Federer plays the baseline like a goaltendre and RARELY if ever gets pulled wide of the singles sidelines. Nadal is a retriever, and a great one, but he is NOT as fast as Federer.

And bumping into two hollows will not make me resign, there are tons of them out there. Waiting to block innovators at every turn. Part of life.
 

FiveO

Hall of Fame
Bjorn99 said:
Look, DO YOU SEE Federer telling anybody what he is doing? He is doing something quite different than anyone else right now. I am quite good at breaking things down, but even I have to admit that it was this other fellow that I network with, that finally broke down what he is doing. It is obvious to me NOW, but I don't honestly think I would have come up with it.

Besides the strange hitting spot and the strange reaction of the racquet to the ball, notice how quickly his racquet turns over the ball. Almost surreal, almost makes you want to say IMPOSSIBLE. I am sorry, if the kids that I was teaching were not so adamant about keeping it a secret, then I would say more. But they are paying the bucks so.................


I will say one thing more, don't get so hung up on modeling other peoples strokes, AS I don't see anyone modeling Agassi's strokes or Connor's. Or Mcenroes. It is unfortunate that we see so many strokes that are so similar now, that is a case of coaches modeling all over the planet, and these national programs where all the kids are modeled by the age of five or six now.


True innovators and champions, model a little but come up with something UNIQUE on their own. Almost like they were born to BE. And that is what makes sports and champions intriguing. Even if we ALL understood Federer's forehand, I don't think he would be too worried about it.


And who here said Nadal was faster than Federer? Surely you jest? Federer plays the baseline like a goaltendre and RARELY if ever gets pulled wide of the singles sidelines. Nadal is a retriever, and a great one, but he is NOT as fast as Federer.

And bumping into two hollows will not make me resign, there are tons of them out there. Waiting to block innovators at every turn. Part of life.


3 posts, several hundred words to announce "The Big Secret" you're not going to share with anyone is what's "hollow" here.

Oh, and your use of technical jargon in the few lines you said anything sport specific is a tad off, and doesn't do anything to bolster your credibility.
 

Defcon

Hall of Fame
Does anyone else think Bjorne99 sounds like bottle from the infamous 'how to hit the Federer forehand' thread? That thread is huge but is comedy gold! I see the same endless rambling completely devoid of any content.
 

TENNIS_99

Semi-Pro
Bjorn99 said:
I could tell you, but there IS something radical that he has come up with, and I am teaching a couple of kids that are doing it, and THEY don't want me sharing it with anyone..

Oh man. for some reasons I am seeing some Ninja turtles practicing karate with the master in this deep dark alley!!
 

FiveO

Hall of Fame
Defcon said:
Does anyone else think Bjorne99 sounds like bottle from the infamous 'how to hit the Federer forehand' thread? That thread is huge but is comedy gold! I see the same endless rambling completely devoid of any content.

Perhaps. However while it is completely devoid of content, it is much more lucid than "the vessel's" usual fare and a lot less vertical too;).
 

emerckx53

Semi-Pro
Bjorn99 said:
Look, DO YOU SEE Federer telling anybody what he is doing? He is doing something quite different than anyone else right now. I am quite good at breaking things down, but even I have to admit that it was this other fellow that I network with, that finally broke down what he is doing. It is obvious to me NOW, but I don't honestly think I would have come up with it.

Besides the strange hitting spot and the strange reaction of the racquet to the ball, notice how quickly his racquet turns over the ball. Almost surreal, almost makes you want to say IMPOSSIBLE. I am sorry, if the kids that I was teaching were not so adamant about keeping it a secret, then I would say more. But they are paying the bucks so.................


I will say one thing more, don't get so hung up on modeling other peoples strokes, AS I don't see anyone modeling Agassi's strokes or Connor's. Or Mcenroes. It is unfortunate that we see so many strokes that are so similar now, that is a case of coaches modeling all over the planet, and these national programs where all the kids are modeled by the age of five or six now.


True innovators and champions, model a little but come up with something UNIQUE on their own. Almost like they were born to BE. And that is what makes sports and champions intriguing. Even if we ALL understood Federer's forehand, I don't think he would be too worried about it.


And who here said Nadal was faster than Federer? Surely you jest? Federer plays the baseline like a goaltendre and RARELY if ever gets pulled wide of the singles sidelines. Nadal is a retriever, and a great one, but he is NOT as fast as Federer.

And bumping into two hollows will not make me resign, there are tons of them out there. Waiting to block innovators at every turn. Part of life.

Wow....that is all I can say.....I am waiting for the black helicopters to arrive...whats next? you are not the famous gentleman who invented "sliced bread" are you?
 

Defcon

Hall of Fame
Ok Bjorn, I am ready to suspend disbelief and buy your claims! All you have to do is post a video of yourself, or one of your 'kids', hitting forehands like Federer.

Now this wouldn't require you to part with your secret, since the rest of us obviously can't discover it on our own by watching videos. You won't be sharing any techniques. But it would prove that you're not talking smack.

So how about it. Are you ready to back up your words or are you here just to troll?
 

NamRanger

G.O.A.T.
Golden Retriever said:
Federer 's forehand is unique in the way that it really does resemble a slingshot. The racquet literally holds the ball for a fraction of a second and shoots it at the target. Never have I seen anyone who holds the ball as long as Federer does. Is that some kind of unique wrist work? Or is it the racquet doing the trick?



Federer has an extremely strong wrist, has great hand eye coordination, and is just naturally talented at it. You can partially replicate his kind of a forehand, but no one will ever come anywhere close to the precision, spin, and power he can produce. It's a one of a kind shot, just like Nadal's forehand.
 

DashaandSafin

Hall of Fame
Defcon said:
Ok Bjorn, I am ready to suspend disbelief and buy your claims! All you have to do is post a video of yourself, or one of your 'kids', hitting forehands like Federer.

Now this wouldn't require you to part with your secret, since the rest of us obviously can't discover it on our own by watching videos. You won't be sharing any techniques. But it would prove that you're not talking smack.

So how about it. Are you ready to back up your words or are you here just to troll?
Ohh, he called you out Bjorn. Personally, I don't belive you because I feel like your just talking out of your arse. Throw in some technical jargon and you sound like you know what you're talking about.

Without proof, no one can belive you, you do understand that?

You know what, I'm Andy Roddick. I swear.
 

sliceroni

Hall of Fame
Be careful Bjorn99, if you spill your secret we will all play like Federer and rule the tennis world with an iron racquet. LOL!
 

rounick

Semi-Pro
Federer isn't really doing anything different.He's doing it better.
If I needed to isolate a key aspect of his stroke,that would would be the timing.
Federer has the best timing around.He just uses all the energy the ball carries with it from the opponents stroke and adds up his own.
He also has a great upper body for tennis (long strong arm and big tall shoulders).
You think you can copy his technique and be like him?
Think again
 

Bjorn99

Hall of Fame
Watch the youtube.com video of Federer hitting a slow motion forehand and watch what happens PRIOR to contact. I know we are all pretty well blind and feel that the world is FLAt, but can no one notice that something radical and revolutionary is happening here? No one. WOW, blind and hollow. Explains why millions of dollars can be spent on coaching kids and they come out and do NOTHIN. Just hollow coaching and analysis. And a video, please. I told you that the kids want anonymity for the time being. And the sport was not tennis. But it was done.
 

superman1

Legend
I don't think it's the timing, I think it's the stroke itself. There are other players who have had timing just as good as his. It's mainly in the flexibility of his motion and his low string tension and strong forearm.
 

Bjorn99

Hall of Fame
No offense but all the videos of people on this site are of players who really aren't all that good. And I am just here to see if there is anyone on my level and am rapidly finding that, NO there isn't. No videos any time soon. Not till I see a lot more from the people here. Because it is all a bunch of regurgitation Vic Bradenesque trophy hunting crap so far. Keep trying. No wonder Dennis Van Der Meer was able to come to this continent and bamboozle so many people.
 

Bjorn99

Hall of Fame
I would doubt that very much. Perhaps a set sometime? or two?


I just found something very interesting. The one slow motion clip on youtube.com that showed the "trick" that federer is employing on his forehand, is now UNATHORIZED. And the two clips that are now on there, interestingly show his forehand and the trick is not evident at ALL. WOW, that is surprising,even to me.

When he practises at tournaments, he loves to hide as well. Well, wouldn't want just anyone to find out about my illusions either.
 

rounick

Semi-Pro
Allow me to insist on the timing.This is one of the reasons why he has so much trouble against Nadal,whose-lefty-ultra-topspin messys up his timing.
Federer doesn't definitely have the most powerful fh either.Safin,Blake,Roddick,Berdych have amazing power too,but Federer has timing and accuracy beyond imagination.
 

35ft6

Legend
^ Bjorn, you're a character. There's plenty of footage of Federer on the internet.

I would not try to teach anybody Federer's forehand. It's a singular shot. The part about hitting the ball with a tilted racket, most pros do that nowadays. How does it not go straight into the ground then? Think about a top spin lob, which is hit with a perpendicular face yet goes high into the air. You want to see crazy angular momentum/tilted racket head action, watch Nadal practice on hard courts. The dude looks like he's throwing a frisbee on his forehand, at no point is his racket perpendicular to the ground, and very quickly after contact his racket face is completely closed/facing the ground. It's insane. Yet, his balls go over the net by only a few inches. Nasty nasty action.

The main thing about Federer's forehand I wouldn't recommend is hitting with a such a straight arm. In general, it's good to keep your elbow closer to your body on forehands AND backhands. Most pros, when they make contact on the forehand, their elbows are almost close enough to the body where they can hold a ball against their ribcage with their elbow. Not Federer, his arm is straight. Mardy Fish, Mark P, and Paradorn also hit with relatively straight arms, and Paradorn's forehand is actually closest to Federer's motion. His take back is different, but once he starts the forward swing, it's pretty similar to Federer's forehand. Unlike them, though, his forehand is consistent with heavy topspin. Their forehands are relatively flat and can be huge weapons, but inconsistent IMO.

Like somebody said on this thread, and I've said this before, Federer seems to accomplish with just his wrist on his follow through what other players use their whole arms to do with a windshield wiper motion, generating tons of top spin. His forehand motion is pretty straight across his body, you would think he's hitting flat, but he generates insane top spin by pronating his wrist.
 

Bjorn99

Hall of Fame
His timing is insane to be sure. To watch him live and see how he almost gives the appearance of not putting more than 65% into any one ball, and yet, generate phenomenal power, must be very, very, very discouraging to all the guys who have to play him.

Still, he has his tricks, and the main one will probably be undetected for a decade. It is no coincidence that the other person who shares his trick came to watch him play the US open final.

But, this fellow is very,very,very enhanced. IMO. LOL.
 

rounick

Semi-Pro
This is getting a bit too x-files for my taste..
If what you're stating is true and you weren't goin' to share then you shouldn't have said anything in the first place.
 

35ft6

Legend
My theory is that Bjorn is keeping a secret that everybody already knows. He's probably a relative beginner despite his claims of being a great player. He talks about his discovery with all the joy and wonderment of a child who thinks they're the first person to discover that you can make yourself disappear by covering your own eyes with your hands. :)
 

Voltron

Hall of Fame
DashaandSafin said:
Ohh, he called you out Bjorn. Personally, I don't belive you because I feel like your just talking out of your arse. Throw in some technical jargon and you sound like you know what you're talking about.

Without proof, no one can belive you, you do understand that?

You know what, I'm Andy Roddick. I swear.

Yep, he really is Roddick. P.S. I'm Jesus, so I HAVE to know that he's Roddick.
 

Noveson

Hall of Fame
Bjorn99 said:
His timing is insane to be sure. To watch him live and see how he almost gives the appearance of not putting more than 65% into any one ball, and yet, generate phenomenal power, must be very, very, very discouraging to all the guys who have to play him.

Still, he has his tricks, and the main one will probably be undetected for a decade. It is no coincidence that the other person who shares his trick came to watch him play the US open final.

But, this fellow is very,very,very enhanced. IMO. LOL.

That would be Tiger Woods you are talking aboot^ So what is the relation between tennis and golf? Besides the stuff we already know.
 

Bjorn99

Hall of Fame
I am not liberty to say except for the word Technology. And sorry, I don't think anyone here has a clue. Has anyone here taught a world Champion? Didn't think so? Been a world champion, didn't think so? But go on with yourselves.
 

FiveO

Hall of Fame
Bjorn99 said:
I am not liberty to say except for the word Technology. And sorry, I don't think anyone here has a clue. Has anyone here taught a world Champion? Didn't think so? Been a world champion, didn't think so? But go on with yourselves.

This is what is known in the trade as a "Blivitz".
 
I doubt anyone is qualified to talk about Federer's strokes like they know what they are talking about... except of course Bjorn99, who is clearly keeping the greatest secret since the beginning of tennis history from all the other desperate noobies. :lol:
 

35ft6

Legend
^ But have you ever trained a world champion? Have you ever made sweet love to a world champion? Have you ever rode a dolphin alongside a world champion riding a second dolphin, and you and the world champion make a sandwich and get beamed up into a UFO where you learn about Federer "technology." Thought not. Just go on with your pathetic lives, worms.
 

hoahuyen

Rookie
Marius_Hancu said:
One piece of advice: hit further away from your body, with a more extended arm (at the elbow).

More leverage. Elementary, but Fed's one of very few doing this.

Get more flexible from heels up. Do lots of shadow disk throwing with light weights, surgical tubing, etc.


Sorry Marius, English is not my first language. Can you clarify "shadow disk throwing with light weights, surgical tubing"? I did google but cannot find anything.

Thanks
 

haerdalis

Hall of Fame
The secret to Feds forehand is his movement. I can hit a slingshot forehand with some consistency against bad players in low tempo, alot of people can. However Federer moves so well that he can always do it. If you dont have that footwork dont even bother to try hitting with so many moving parts.
 

tricky

Hall of Fame
Retriever --

This is how I tend to look at his FH. His stroke is counterintuitive, and it's potentially dangerous with your wrist. So, obviously, don't try this with a ball and/or heavy racket until you feel the "whip-like" motion. Again, this is only an interpretation, but I think this is fairly close to what he does. And it's fun to experiment, of course. :)

1) Fed uses an Eastern-ish grip. This is important because the crazy wrist thing comes from this. Initially, start with a pure Eastern grip to get the sling-shot feel down.

2) Fed's backswing is similar to a baseball pitcher. He wants to do two things:
-Get full arm extension with as little extraneous motion as possible.
-At full extension, his hand position will be roughly at about belly level, WAY behind him, and just on the right side. And, like a baseball pitcher.

3) In order to get that kind of back swing, he limits the vertical motion and keeps it pretty close to his body. In order to do this, he does three things:
-Like most players, he turns his body while holding the racket with both hands. By doing this, you avoid "arming" the forehand.
-Before he releases the racket from his left hand, he rotates the racket face counterclockwise 180 degrees, until it's perpendicular to court and upside down.
-The backswing never goes above shoulder level.

4) During the downstroke of his backswing (as he goes toward full extension), he, using a Eastern grip, closes his racket face That is, at full extension his racket . . .
-Is at roughly waist-belly level
-Face is closed or roughly parallel with the ground
-Pointing toward the side fence and oriented a little toward the net (as opposed to the back fence.) In other words his wrist is in a relaxed, non-stretched position

5) Steps 1-3 are roughly valid from a classical swing point of view, and it makes sense if you're using an Eastern grip. But step 4 (i.e. closing the face) is a product of the modern semi-SW forehand motion, not of an Eastern forehand. Yet Federer adds this anyway. He's creating a "unnatural" component, which needs to be resolved during the forward swing.

6) This "unnatural" situation is the basis for the wrist and an important part of the sling-shot action. As he initiates his forward swing, he does the following things:
-Keep his wrist relaxed and loose.
-Lets the racket whip back naturally from the loose wrist and forward arm motion.
-As it's whipping back, he corrects the racket face. This should naturally happen by just keeping your wrist loose.
-He keeps the racket pointing slightly down by making sure his thumb is parallel with arm.
-Swings low-to-high, while his palm is leading the racket. Essentially, his wrist is essentially "hyperextended" through the forward motion.

7) His forward swing, which starts from the straight-arm, usually goes into an elbow bend when the elbow meets the body. Because he swings forward from straight-arm to that bend, he can correct the racket face before the elbow has to pivot without wasting arm motion. Also, because he goes from straight-to-bend, his racket is very whippy and the speed is great. Again, think of pitching. Sometimes, he keeps the arm straight when he wants an inside-out shot.

Steps 1-7 is the basic forehand motion, and it'll give you a sling-shot.

8) There's a lot of disagreement about what he does with the wrist as he approaches contact. Here's your 3 different camps -->
-He keeps the wrist loose and doesn't consciously snap it. If the wrist is moving forward, it's purely due to the motion of the swing. If he wants to impart topspin, he does a counterclockwise doorknob motion while keeping his wrist back.
-Or, he consciously snaps his wrist just before contact.
-Or, he pronates the wrist.

Whichever camp you subscribe to, it's really steps 4-6 that sets up step 8. It enables him to rotate the racket face about as much as a guy with a strong SW grip, thus creating similar spin of a clay court specialist. But, because he uses a sling-shot motion and that Eastern-ish grip, he can pound the crap out of the ball too. Finally, due to the classical-with-modern-twist fusion, he has a wider range of strike height than almost every player currently playing. That is, he can topspin a shot at his knees as well as drive a ball flat above his shoulders.

But, I think if you actually tried out the above to the letter, you'll also pick up how unnatural, complex, and potentially injury-happy his swing is compared to, say, Agassi. I haven't talked about what Fed does with his feet during all this.
 

Bjorn99

Hall of Fame
WOW, that was great stuff, I am starting to like this place. I love how you included that there are three camps on his forehand. And you didn't even get to his feet.

Bottom line, whether by initial design or by intuitive fluke, Federer has developed a shot that befuddles experts and has deflated the confidence of both the MEN AND the women. He has everyone in the game looking ugly, confusted AND mechanical. He has raised the bar in a way that only Bobby Orr in hockey has done before. That I am aware of. Making everyone just ooh and aah and realize that they are second rate and playing for some kind of a booby prize.
 
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