How does return of serve evolve from 3.0 -> 3.5 -> 4.0 -> 4.5 ?

[TimeToPlaySets]

This was the weakest part of my game, and it is now improving.

If there is a weak 2nd serve with little spin, I aggressively attack it.
Even an ok 2nd, if I prep well, and spin is moderate, I can crush it back.
Sometimes, I will return serve CC for a clean winner.

I find I still have issues with a severely sliced 2nd that is moving sideways. (frame)
I think these are the hardest to return.

For high paced serves, I'm often pop/punching it back with no spin, but landing past the service box.
More than happy to get the point started.

I find many 3.5 tends to overcook the ROS and that is a source for many errors.
How does return of serve evolve from 3.0 -> 3.5 -> 4.0 -> 4.5 ?

 

[Dartagnan64]

I don't know what you mean by RoS evolution. Since the serves get more difficult as you get higher in levels, RoS generally gets more defensive, if that's what you are referring to.

As I've gotten better, serves that gave me fits before no longer do so. But serves of better players still throw me off.
At 3.5 you face less pace but more kookiness. Super flat serves that bounce around your ankles, reverse twists of modest pace but weird bounces, drop serves, super slow slicers. At higher levels the serves become more dogmatic - flats, slices, topspin kickers - but higher paced and more precise into corners.

 

[OnTheLine]

Give me a higher paced 4.0 level serve any day versus a weak fluffy serve that is practically a drop shot.

Those are the ones that give me fits.

I can do a solid CC ROS with a full swing on a female serve up to a strong 4.0 level 1st serve. On a male, up to a strong 3.5 1st. Past that, I am blocking it back. I have spent considerable hours working on this while some of my hitting partners work on their serve.

But if I get those soft short 2.5/3.0 level female serves ... bad things happen unless I can take it with my backhand. I tend to try to do too much with the darn thing. I try to generate too much power out of nothing, particularly when the soft ball is barely bouncing to knee level, much less above the net.

I am working on that patience thing ...

 

[Dartagnan64]

Give me a higher paced 4.0 level serve any day versus a weak fluffy serve that is practically a drop shot.

Those are the ones that give me fits.

I can do a solid CC ROS with a full swing on a female serve up to a strong 4.0 level 1st serve. On a male, up to a strong 3.5 1st. Past that, I am blocking it back. I have spent considerable hours working on this while some of my hitting partners work on their serve.

But if I get those soft short 2.5/3.0 level female serves ... bad things happen unless I can take it with my backhand. I tend to try to do too much with the darn thing. I try to generate too much power out of nothing, particularly when the soft ball is barely bouncing to knee level, much less above the net.

I am working on that patience thing ...

The super slow woman's serve is all about knowing its coming and taking it early. People wait for it to reach them at which point its mostly traveling vertically. Stand in no man's land and step up to take it at the top of its bounce. In mixed I usually just rip those towards the guy at the net and see what his reflexes are like.

But I'm with you when it comes to flat serves. I'll take a ripping flat serve into the middle of the box any day over a sickly twisted spin serve into the corners. That's probably why in doubles I get more points off my topspin second serve than I usually do of my flat first, especially against women that don't see spin as much.

 

[TimeToPlaySets]

But if I get those soft short 2.5/3.0 level female serves ... bad things happen unless I can take it with my backhand. I tend to try to do too much with the darn thing. I try to generate too much power out of nothing, particularly when the soft ball is barely bouncing to knee level, much less above the net.

I am working on that patience thing ...

How is your approach shot? Returning a dink serve is very similar, and if you've not practices that, you'll tend to spaz and maniac an error.

 

[Doc Hollidae]

This was the weakest part of my game, and it is now improving.

If there is a weak 2nd serve with little spin, I aggressively attack it.
Even an ok 2nd, if I prep well, and spin is moderate, I can crush it back.
Sometimes, I will return serve CC for a clean winner.

I find I still have issues with a severely sliced 2nd that is moving sideways. (frame)
I think these are the hardest to return.

For high paced serves, I'm often pop/punching it back with no spin, but landing past the service box.
More than happy to get the point started.

I find many 3.5 tends to overcook the ROS and that is a source for many errors.
How does return of serve evolve from 3.0 -> 3.5 -> 4.0 -> 4.5 ?

The ROS evolution is the same as any other stroke as you progress through the levels. As you progress to higher ratings, obviously consistency, depth, and spin increase as well. However the approach to returns doesn't necessarily change based on the level. Just like you stated, weak second serves are attacked and big first serves are blocked or hit back with little backswing. What you are really asking is a shot selection question and as you improve , your shot selection tends to improve as well. Most 4.5 players aren't going to swing out on every ROS, however, there are some that do. Though they are most likely more successful doing it than the 3.5 swinging out on every ROS.

 

[RetroSpin]

I think up to 4.5, players lack the skill to really attack a weak second serve. Your best bet is to just make sure you get it in play, because the odds are your opponent will cough up an UE or weak return. At 4.5 and above, you really need to step on them. It's probably the shortest ball you will get a shot at.

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

I am working on that patience thing ...

The problem with patience is that it takes so darn long to achieve. Can't someone come up with a faster way?

 

[SinjinCooper]

Just block everything back, deep if possible. Viable right up through grand slam level. Very low maintenance.

 

[TimeToPlaySets]

My coach used to say, "just get the point started" (but block it deep, if possible)

 

[RetroSpin]

Just block everything back, deep if possible. Viable right up through grand slam level. Very low maintenance.

Seriously? Grand slam level huh? What a joke. Anyway how would you know about anything above 3.5?

 

[Wise one]

Just block everything back, deep if possible. Viable right up through grand slam level. Very low maintenance.

Absolutely true...

 

[OnTheLine]

How is your approach shot? Returning a dink serve is very similar, and if you've not practices that, you'll tend to spaz and maniac an error.

Approach shot FH, easy ts CC, BH typically a drive DTL or to the middle ... BUT I have mental problems on the ROS telling me that I have to DO something productive with the weak ball .... so, as is so often the case: brain problem.

 

[TimeToPlaySets]

You can do something with a weak ball, you just aren't good at it yet, if you're not controlling it.
I am very pleased at my 4.0 and under serve return. Weak ones I attack. Strong ones I block back, crisply.
I am not trying to win points when returning a big serve, just getting it started.

 

[atp2015]

Returning slow serve is a technique thing. You can swing as fast as you can, if the technique is followed correctly. One of the best videos on attacking short ball here.
The key is to take the ball at the top of the bounce and have a complete follow through- initially you might miss quite a few, once you learn, it's a really high percentage shot.
You rarely miss as long as you are able to catch it above the net by at least a foot or two. You need to swing fast to keep it down and deep.

 

[TimeToPlaySets]

Do you think lower levels have particularly higher error rates on ROS?
Trying to go for the winner instead of starting the point.

 

[Wesley J]

Do you think lower levels have particularly higher error rates on ROS?
Trying to go for the winner instead of starting the point.

I think lower levels have higher error rates, but it is due to technique as opposed to going for a winner off of ROS. It is kind of the same logic as the dink second serve only it is a dink/weak ROS. At lower levels, the mindset seems to be get the ball back in play while the higher you go the mindset becomes neutralize (get it deep)/attack (power and direction) as players are now ready and capable of attacking a weak ROS.

 

[atp2015]

Do you think lower levels have particularly higher error rates on ROS?
Trying to go for the winner instead of starting the point.

I think (based on listening to coaches) the mindset should not be about going for winners. It should be hitting the best shot possible using the right technique especially from behind the service line. Winners just happen as a sequence of right shots play out on the court. Error rate results from low percentage shots or playing higher level opponent.

 

[r2473]

Just block everything back, deep if possible. Viable right up through grand slam level. Very low maintenance.

This is basically what you want to do until your opponent adjusts. There certainly are guys that will be able to effectively come to net if they know you are just blocking the return every time.

But otherwise, just getting the ball back neutral and not missing many returns giving your opponent free points is the percentage play. Pancho Segura addresses this in his book, which I think is still one of the very best tennis instruction books ever written. He says that you shouldn't miss getting a return back in play more than 5 times the entire match.

I've tried this and he's right. In the past, I'd always try attacking the slow serve. Now I just hit a high percentage return with spin and try to get neutral. The pressure of consistency is far tougher for rec players to deal with than power plays.

The problem is, it's not "fun". It's far more fun to crush returns, even if you only hit a winner a few times the entire match and in the process, give your opponent dozens of free points. Same with the serve. The percentage play is to just hit 3/4 spin serves to smart spots. But it's much more fun to hit the big power serve, even if you double fault several times each game.

https://www.amazon.com/Pancho-Seguras-Championship-strategy-winning/dp/0070560404

Consistency kills at all levels of play

 

[WildVolley]

I think that the biggest change is the average quality of serve faced. At the lower levels, a bump or underspin serve will be common and therefore the returner has a lot of time or needs to know how to pick up a serve that stays low. Those are quite different scenarios, but what I've seen.

At the 4.0-4.5 level, it is more common to start facing kick serves and topspin serves. Players will either back up or have to work on serves that come in high to the backhand. I've played at the 4.0 & 4.5 level and while there is a wide variance in serves at that level, you will face some players who hit quality spin serves, especially at 4.5.

The biggest lesson I had to learn while improving was, as mentioned by others above, developing techniques that increased my consistency when returning. In my case, I had to really shorten my swing, improve my timing on my split step, and play the percentages while returning. My return is in my mind quite distinct from my rally fhs & bhs.

In singles, I am usually aiming for big targets with my return, especially when my opponent doesn't S&V. My first goal is to clear the net and get the ball into play. If I have read the serve well and have balance, I will try for more depth on the return and usually target the server's bh, just because that's usually what I've determined is the weaker side. A solid return with margin that is deeper than the service line will often cause an error or elicit a weak ball by the server.

 

[RetroSpin]

A lot of this advice should be labeled as level specific. It probably makes sense for 3.5's to push back returns, since just getting the ball over the net puts the percentage significantly in your favor. At 5.0 your opponent will probably reply to your "safe" return with a clean winner. You also take all the pressure off his serve, because he is not worrying about you attacking his second. Getting to neutral is the server's goal on a second serve, not the returner's. A good second serve is defined as one that is not easy to attack. If your return game is too cautious, you turn weak second serves into adequate ones.

No one is advocating taking wild risks and making repeated return errors. The fact is though, that most second serves are the shortest ball you will get in a rally. If you play an aggressive game, why wouldn't you take advantage of it?

Having a strong service game yourself also makes it a lot easier to return aggressively. If you expect to hold easily, a few return errors are not a big deal because that one game where you hit a couple of return winners can mean the set for you. See, Sampras, Pete.

 

[ChaelAZ]

Low level 3.5, lots of ROS errors. Usually overhit. 4.0 is better reads and more balls in play, but almost always better serve quality and pace coming to them. Blocking back starts to play a role. 4.5 is a majority if serves in play with placement and purpose.


Probably posting from the court between sets.

 

[TimeToPlaySets]

When playing a 4.5, I noticed my block ROS was not enough.
He would sometimes follow in his serve and volley away my block ROS.
I realized quickly I had to take a swing, and not just block.

 

[vex]

Seriously? Grand slam level huh? What a joke. Anyway how would you know about anything above 3.5?

... you watch the ATP right? While no pro uses block returns EXCLUSIVELY, they are very routinely employed at the highest level. The greatest player of all time blocks back a high percentage of his BH returns for gawdsakes...

 

[Doc Hollidae]

When playing a 4.5, I noticed my block ROS was not enough.
He would sometimes follow in his serve and volley away my block ROS.
I realized quickly I had to take a swing, and not just block.

Just have to block it back with depth.

 

[FiReFTW]

I prefer to return faster serves better than slow serves, use a short backswing and just aim for a spot and not really block it but not really swing at it, just use the incoming pace to direct it in a corner, its very effecive and aggressive and puts the server on the defense.
On slow 2nd serves you need a bigger backswing and really swing if you want to attack with it, so its a bit harder to really aim more accurately, specialy if the 2nd serve has alot of slice or kick.

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

Just have to block it back with depth.

I think it depends on the trajectory of the ball. If I block it back with several feet of clearance, that could be a putaway opportunity for someone playing S&V. In this case, depth does not help; in fact, it's possibly a penalty because it means the volley will be higher than otherwise.

Blocking it back low is superior to deep. But then what if he stays back and then attacks the short ball? Then I guess you have to block it back low and deep or play cat and mouse to try and figure out when he's coming in.