How high do flatball hitters hit the ball over the net?

[djones]

How high do flatball hitters hit the ball over the net?

 

[andfor]

The simple answer is to hit with less clearance over the net. But it's a risky style of play that takes more timing and usually for most leads to more errors.

No one hits perfectly flat everytime. Jimmy Conners probably came the closest and he had great timing. I only got to watch him in person once but his ball consistantly cleared the net on a flat trajectory about 6 inches to 2 feet above the net, if my memory serves me correct. Most people who are refered to as flat hitters have a low amount of top or underspin. Again refering to Conners, he hit some top and slice and also had a effective sidespin type forehand.

Hopefully one of the historians here can explain Connors game better than I and maybe one of the better teachers can elaborate on your question. Connors is the best example I can think of. Most players today hit with pretty high RPM's of topspin so I can't come up with a good example. My best example might be, James Blake may be considered a flat ball hitter when compared to a Rafeal Nadal. Hope this helps.

 

[glass]

I've got agassi vs connors from the 89 US open. They use a particular camera angle a lot that places you at court level, and I'd agree with andfor in sayiung that the majority of his strokes are within inches of the net.

 

[snoflewis]

How high do flatball hitters hit the ball over the net?

not very....my friend hits about...3-6 inches usually

 

[Agassi]

The main people that I can think of that don't have that hit flat are Lindsay Davenport and Andre Agassi. Both are some of the best ball strikers out there and both of their backhands are some of their greatest weapons. Both hit the ball with low clearance and make sure they hit the ball out in front as much as possible. If their timing is off they will most likely hit the ball way out or straight into the net. I have a flat game and its great for power. I have a better backhand because I use my feet better on that side. My forehand falls apart sometimes because I can't hit it in front as well. It's all about the timing and footwork.

 

[doriancito]

andre agassi doesnt hit flat....he hits with side spin

 

[nViATi]

andre agassi doesnt hit flat....he hits with side spin

he hits flat

 

[yvp]

flat with a hint of topspin.

 

[MTChong]

Players today like Agassi and maybe even Safin that hit relatively flat still have a load of spin.

 

[35ft6]

Most of the top guys hit very low over the net when they're practicing at the US Open at least. Somebody on this board mentioned how surprised they were at how low the clearance was on Nadal's shots in Queens. I saw Coria practicing and his balls were clearing the net by very little. Likewise for Hewitt. Agassi hit the hardest and flattest of the three, but in terms of clearance, we're talking his shots were maybe 2 to 4 inches lower than those guys.

I recall thinking Hrbaty hit incredibly flat. A match between him and Berdych would be very interesting.

 

[zorg]

You can hit topspin that is low to the net, just hit with massive power.

 

[Marius_Hancu]

(impressions from Montreal Masters)

marius i'm curious, how high over the net was nadal hitting compared to agassi?

Not much higher in those training sessions, that was my surprise too. 3 feet at most over the net for both in average.

Guess penetration is the word.

However, I'd say Nadal's ball had more spin. Still, I couldn't see Nadal's ball as clealy as Agassi's. I was right behind Agassi at the end of the court (watching through a screen), while I was looking at Nadal laterally over another court.

 

[laurie]

I saw Myskina at Wimbledon this year and she hits the ball as low over the net as I've ever seen from any player. Consequently she made a lot of errors, just hitting many rallies into the net.

I don't really like the word flat. It gives a strange impression. These players just don't hit with as much topspin as other players who use semi or western grips on the forehand especially.

Agassi is adaptable. He can hit any type of forehand he wants. I would say he hit a lot more topspin on his forehands in the early 1990s than he does today. I wonder why?

 

[alan-n]

Thats because heavy topspin is a waste of energy. Why waste your energy generating extra topspin so your opponent can have more time to run it down. As Andre got older, he got better at hitting flatter and flatter over the net.

 

[joe sch]

Thats because heavy topspin is a waste of energy. Why waste your energy generating extra topspin so your opponent can have more time to run it down. As Andre got older, he got better at hitting flatter and flatter over the net.

Very true !
Flat trajectory hitting, eastern grips and closed stances were the style with the heavier, smaller head rackets. The modern game has evolved because lighter rackets allow quicker strokes using open stances, western grips and more vertical strokes. The modern style takes much more strenght and energy, which is what todays players have evolved into from the Lendl mode. The best classic players using flat trajectory hitting were able to hit balls consistently 1..3" over the net and keep the balls close to the baselines. The big fallacy is that todays topspinning strokes provide consistency. Not true but unfortunately very few players and coaches remember the classic game and players.

 

[killer]

A good point alan-n. AA used to hit with a ton of topspin, particularly on the forehand side. The combination of power and spin was one of the reasons he was touted as a successor to Lendl for the 'King of Forehands' title in the late 80s/early 90s. But generating huge amounts of topspin while maintaining the depth and penetration necessary to make it effective is very energy-consuming, and it's quite rare to see players who have been around for a long time continue to hit was such huge spin because they realize they can be more effective and consume less energy by hitting flatter and saving the spin for occasions when they really need it.

 

[laurie]

Joesch, I've seen a lot of live women's tennis over 2004 and 2005. Have you noticed more and more top women are using eastern grips to get more power?

 

[joe sch]

Joesch, I've seen a lot of live women's tennis over 2004 and 2005. Have you noticed more and more top women are using eastern grips to get more power?

Yes, and this is not surprising when they see what Davenport and Sharapova can do.
Robert Lansdorf knows how to make a champion and its sure surprising more coaches and players have not listened PS : I know a coach teaching in LA who is even better than Robert at teaching this type of game

 

[35ft6]

The big fallacy is that todays topspinning strokes provide consistency. Not true but unfortunately very few players and coaches remember the classic game and players.

It/spin absolutely does provide consistency. It's as true for groundstrokes as it is for second serves. Simply, the higher you hit over the net, the bigger margin for error, the higher likelihood of consistency. You can argue the relative virtues of flat versus spinny but consistency is one area where spin really helps.

 

[laurie]

Hi 35ft 6 (interesting name!)

I've actually discussed (on another thread) the notion here that playing with a western grip in the women's game is almost disadvantageous right now.

Amelie Mauresmo is one of my favourite players (I prefer to ignore the Haas comparisons!) Amelie hits with so much topspin on her groundstrokes that they tend to sit up on all surfaces. Against her opponents it means she's vulnerable to attack at all times and I believe its why she is trying to serve and volley more. Players with eastern grips deal with higher bouncing balls really well and can put them away for outright winners with the big inside out forehand.

I've also noticed Amelie actually has more trouble putting away high balls. She really has to wrap around the ball and is prone to making errors off it as its harder to deal with with that sort of grip. I also discussed why Sampras had so much success on hardcourts against western players. He and other eastern players excel at two shots:
a) inside out forehand off a high ball
b) down the line forehand off a high ball

These are two shots the top women excel at today.

What Amelie has to do is improve her first serve percentage if she wants to be a successful serve and volleyer plus find a way to hit deeper groundstrokes that don't sit up.

Justine Henin who uses a similar grip to Amelie is also prone to attack but she fights so hard anyway that its not as noticeable.

Eastern forehands are the way to go these days. You can still put as much topspin as you wish with an eastern grip when needed. Its very versatile grip.

 

[35ft6]

I've actually discussed (on another thread) the notion here that playing with a western grip in the women's game is almost disadvantageous right now.

I agree that it's arguable which grip is better, but I don't think it's arguable that hitting with spin increases consistency. True in bowling, true with second serves, true in ping pong, true on tennis groundstrokes. I'm sure you noticed but I'm just reiterating that anyway.

Players with eastern grips deal with higher bouncing balls really well and can put them away for outright winners with the big inside out forehand.

Commentators have said things that relate to what you're proposing. It started off having to do with Venus and Serena using big powerful rackets, the type that would render a man's game useless. I don't remember if it was Patrick Mac or Luke Jensen or Mal or who, but they said that in the women's game power is king. Players like Serena are willing to sacrifice control and even a low number of unforced errors for sheer power, the kind that draws weak replies that can be easily put away. The big girls that are able to pull it off are basically simply trying to overpower their opponents.

I've also noticed Amelie actually has more trouble putting away high balls. She really has to wrap around the ball and is prone to making errors off it as its harder to deal with with that sort of grip.

But like Venus' second serve, it's hard to tell if the problems stem from technical flaws or mental shortcomings. Amelie, despite her butch appearance, seems pretty fragile emotionally and mentally. I have a feeling she can make those high shots all day long in practice. But I agree that her groundstrokes sit up too much against the top girls. But another problem is that she doesn't seem to stick to a game plan like most of the other top girls. Some of them other girls pretty much only have one type of game, and no matter who they're playing they just try to execute the one style of play they know. Amelie seems to have a bit of that French shotmaker problem. She doesn't have one overwhelming weapon... she has too many shots at her disposal... and I think in high pressure situations she becomes nervous and confused. But I digress.

I also discussed why Sampras had so much success on hardcourts against western players.

He didn't have much success with them on clay, though. And on the other surfaces I think his serve helped him more than his forehand. His forehand was an incredibly penetrating, I agree, but from what I remember it wasn't very versatile nor was it, on slower surfaces, consistent enough.

Eastern forehands are the way to go these days. You can still put as much topspin as you wish with an eastern grip when needed. Its very versatile grip.

I think the semi-western forehand is overall the best grip for the ATP. For the WTA, you may be right. Although I'm not sure who uses it besides Lindsay (?). Clijsters looks to have a western forehand. Sharapova uses a semi-western most of the time, doesn't she?

Also, an eastern grip is the way to go with conditions, the two immediately coming to mind being you're tall, have a good serve, and are powerful enough that you don't have to rely on consistency to win matches.

 

[35ft6]

Hi 35ft 6 (interesting name!)

Girlfriend was spying on my every move on message boards, so I tried to come up with something completely random. I'm not 5'6" tall, and I'm not 35 years old.

 

[laurie]

Thanks for your nice replies and dissection of my comments. I meant eastern was way to go in WTA. You are correct. The ATP is definitely a different kettle of fish and semi western is most effective there.

I still think Sampras on clay was more footwork than stroke production. Like Mauresmo, probably mental issues as well. He didn't feel comfortable on the surface despite having a pretty decent record on it up to 1996. I think he should have worked on clay more, not less.

I think Sharapova uses eastern because of her follow through, good on the run and takes the ball a bit late at times and finishes with the shot above her head. A usual tell tale sign of players who use an eastern grip. Myskina also uses eastern. They have both worked with Robert Lansdorp. Also Elena Dementieva seems to use eastern.

I like Pierce's forehand. Its similar to Andre Agassi. She can hit very hard and big or with lots of topspin with a quick wrist action. She seems to use a semi western grip to me. I'll have to check more closely.

 

[35ft6]

I think Sharapova uses eastern because of her follow through, good on the run and takes the ball a bit late at times and finishes with the shot above her head. A usual tell tale sign of players who use an eastern grip. Myskina also uses eastern. They have both worked with Robert Lansdorp.

They may use it, but I don't think exclusively. Myskina uses a semi-western at least some of the times. I think Sharapova uses an eastern more than Myskina does, but in this picture she seems to be using a semi-w.

Also Elena Dementieva seems to use eastern.

I think Elena uses a semi-western most of the time.

I like Pierce's forehand. Its similar to Andre Agassi. She can hit very hard and big or with lots of topspin with a quick wrist action. She seems to use a semi western grip to me. I'll have to check more closely.

You're right. There are way less western grips in the women's game, and that alone gives your argument a lot of credibility as I tend to think the most effective technique/grips rise to the top. I remember thinking Capriati hit with an eastern at least some of the time when she was playing.

 

[laurie]

Thanks. Definitely Dementieva has a semi western/western grip in the picture. Also Myskina. Sharapova is more difficult. Could be eastern the way she holds the racket.

Also it makes me think how adaptable these players are. Something I disussed before. For instance, Mauresmo must change her grip quite quickly when she goes to volley but does it successfully because she is such a good volleyer.

I'll have to look at Myskina again. The way she plays is almost contradictory to the grip she has in the picture. That's very interesting. Thanks.

Nice discussion

 

[35ft6]

Thanks. Definitely Dementieva has a semi western/western grip in the picture. Also Myskina. Sharapova is more difficult. Could be eastern the way she holds the racket.

Also it makes me think how adaptable these players are.

Who knows when Myskina's picture was taken. I read Lansdorp really overhauled her ground game, and I know I've seen pictures where it looked like she was using an eastern grip (sometimes the bottom of the racket is flipping up on Maria and Myskina's follow throughs on the forehand...), so maybe the picture was taken before Rob L forced her to hit through the ball more.

 

[joe sch]

It/spin absolutely does provide consistency. It's as true for groundstrokes as it is for second serves. Simply, the higher you hit over the net, the bigger margin for error, the higher likelihood of consistency. You can argue the relative virtues of flat versus spinny but consistency is one area where spin really helps.

Here are a few things to consider for stroking consistency:
- Does hip rotation help or hinder stroke accuracy ?
- Does follow thru over opposite shoulder verses straight ahead follow thru help or hinder stroke accuracy ?
- Does a solid foot anchor verses moving foot anchor help or hinder stroke accuracy ?
- Does a contact point closer to the body versers farther in front help or hinder stroke accuracy ?
These are issues that apply to gripping and stroking needed for flatter trajectory less spinning balls verses higher trajectory more spinning balls. These are all factor which affect consistency and the amount of work necessary to hit a tennis ball.

 

[joe sch]

Who knows when Myskina's picture was taken. I read Lansdorp really overhauled her ground game, and I know I've seen pictures where it looked like she was using an eastern grip (sometimes the bottom of the racket is flipping up on Maria and Myskina's follow throughs on the forehand...), so maybe the picture was taken before Rob L forced her to hit through the ball more.

Robert Lansdorf's ideal follow thru would have the racket point at the opponent with the racket head parallel to the ground such that the opponent could not see the string bed.

 

[tom-selleck]

great thread!!!

should the recreational player (4.0-4.5) be emulating the WTA players more and hitting flatter???? i find with golf, the LPGA players are alot easier to emulate than tiger, phil, vijay etc. who are from some other planet or something.

the one thing i do find though is that the recreational player has a really hard time handling heavy topspin from their opponent... but eastern forehand gives you good access to topspin, and at recreational level, i just see too many people using western grips but their shots often come up short with very little bite.

 

[laurie]

Joe. I think that's a great technique. One I use myself. I also think you can hit great topspin lobs with this technique because there is great disguise as its very similar to the topspin forehand, follow through etc.

 

[bigserving]

The original question is difficult to answer because of all of the variables on every shot.

At what height is the player hitting the ball, shoulder, knee, or where in between? How deep in the court is the player hitting the ball? How deep is the player aiming the ball to land in the opponent's court? What angle is the shot? How hard are both incoming and outgoing shots hit? Is the shot toward the open court, or down the middle? Is the shot going over the low, or high part of the net?

All of those questions and more must be addresed for each shot to answer the question.

The net is 36" in the middle, maybe 42" down the line, so at least that high each time.