How many slams would 2015 Djokovic win in 2007?

[Krish872007]

I think Djokovic 2015 definitely beats Federer 2007 in the US Open Final. Absolutely. No way does Federer get away with being supbpar in that match. Djokovic takes that one. He has a shot at Wimbledon and Australian Open too but Federer would be the favorite at Wimbledon. The form he had in that Wimbledon Final could definitely give Federer and Nadal all kinds of trouble. I think he loses to Nadal at the French though.

I think he may win as well - but would they meet in the Final? That's the question really - if they are in the same half, that changes things

 

[NatF]

Federer was definitely subpar. No way is Djokovic losing that many set points in 2015 when he is a much better and more experienced tennis player. No way, no how. Djokovic would definitely be the favorite based on the level Federer played in '07 final versus Djokovic's level in '15.

Your logic is faulty. There's no certainty that Djokovic gets to those sets points in 2007. By the same token I could say 2007 Federer converts on more BP's. I agree that Djokovic in 2015 does not choke in that position. However for all you claims of Federer being subpar he still had a better ratio of winners to errors than Djokovic did in 2015. Also worth noting is that the 2007 final was a day match and was a bit windy. Conditions that might favour Federer compared to the night match in 2015.

 

[NoleFam]

I think he may win as well - but would they meet in the Final? That's the question really - if they are in the same half, that changes things

We will say the final to make is easier for everyone. lol

 

[abmk]

Federer was definitely subpar. No way is Djokovic losing that many set points in 2015 when he is a much better and more experienced tennis player. No way, no how. Djokovic would definitely be the favorite based on the level Federer played in '07 final versus Djokovic's level in '15.

Federer was only 'sub-par' compared to his peak level. His level was still better than djokovic's in USO 15 overall - who wasn't at his best either. (Hence federer being +8 in W/UE and djokovic being -2 ). Both were clutch in those respective matches.

15 djokovic definitely converts one of the SPs in the 1st set ; but 2nd set, he'd still lose those set points - one was an ace from federer and another was a FH in a rally that djokovic barely hit out ( was not a bad shot by any means ).

 

[NoleFam]

Your logic is faulty. There's no certainty that Djokovic gets to those sets points in 2007. By the same token I could say 2007 Federer converts on more BP's. I agree that Djokovic in 2015 does not choke in that position. However for all you claims of Federer being subpar he still had a better ratio of winners to errors than Djokovic did in 2015. Also worth noting is that the 2007 final was a day match and was a bit windy. Conditions that might favour Federer compared to the night match in 2015.

Yea but the whole argument is faulty from all sides because it's basically hypothetical. Yea Federer had a better ratio but the match would just be totally different. Djokovic was so much better in 2015 compared to 2007 and his defense to offense is miles better. One thing I noticed about him now is that he adapts to certain opponents level and does what it takes to win. He could have played better in the 2015 final but he did just enough to keep Federer at bay. I have to go with 2015 Djokovic all the way. If it's windy, then neither will be able to play their best but I don't think 2015 Djokovic is as subject to faltering in the wind as he was a few years ago.

 

[mattosgrant]

Who knows. It is possible he wins none. He could also win as many as 2. Honestly looking at it directly through form I don't think he would be favored in any, but he would have a chance in each as well:

Australian Open- This was the best ever Federer at the Australian Open. Although Djokovic was great in the semis and final I don't think this was the best ever Djokovic at the Australian Open, plus old Federer got a set and in 07 he was in probably his best ever form there as I said. Since Djokovic is the Australian Open GOAT he would still have a chance though.

French Open- He would have more chance against Nadal than Federer obviously, but Nadal would still be favored. Federer vs Djokovic would probably be 50-50. Djokovic lost to Wawrinka, but Davydenko largely outplayed Federer in the semis until the end of each set but choked. Federer was better in the finals than the semis though.

Wimbledon- Nadal pushed Federer super hard, so Djokovic of 2015 would have a fighting chance vs either. Again probably wouldn't be favored.

U.S Open- A much younger Djokovic pushed Federer and should have atleast won the 1st set and had 1 or 2 set points in the 2nd too. Still a much older Federer pushed Djokovic even more.

I would say the best guess is he wins 1, worst case wins 0, best case wins 2. I wouldn't favor him in any of the 4.

 

[NatF]

Yea but the whole argument is faulty from all sides because it's basically hypothetical. Yea Federer had a better ratio but the match would just be totally different. Djokovic was so much better in 2015 compared to 2007 and his defense to offense is miles better. One thing I noticed about him now is that he adapts to certain opponents level and does what it takes to win. He could have played better in the 2015 final but he did just enough to keep Federer at bay. I have to go with 2015 Djokovic all the way.

And Federer wasn't much better in 2007 compared to 2015? As far as Djokovic being able to play better in the final that's nonsense. It was a slam final he was doing all he could to win and he was still fending off break points every game.

 

[NoleFam]

Federer was only 'sub-par' compared to his peak level. His level was still better than djokovic's in USO 15 overall - who wasn't at his best either. (Hence federer being +8 in W/UE and djokovic being -2 ). Both were clutch in those respective matches.

15 djokovic definitely converts one of the SPs in the 1st set ; but 2nd set, he'd still lose those set points - one was an ace from federer and another was a FH in a rally that djokovic barely hit out ( was not a bad shot by any means ).

Debatable but fair enough and it's your opinion.

 

[vanioMan]

Imo 1 - US Open.

 

[abmk]

As far as Djokovic being able to play better in the final that's nonsense. It was a slam final he was doing all he could to win and he was still fending off break points every game.

agreed. he wasn't doing just what was required to give cilic just 3 games in the semi, was he ?

 

[NoleFam]

And Federer wasn't much better in 2007 compared to 2015? As far as Djokovic being able to play better in the final that's nonsense. It was a slam final he was doing all he could to win and he was still fending off break points every game.

No I mean in that particular match. We are not going to say who was better overall in those respective years because we will be debating all day. We are only going by the level in the finals of those two years. I just wasn't impressed by Federer at all in that '07 Final. True but he also didn't serve all that great tbh after that nasty fall. In that 2015 match, what impressed me was how good he was in those pressure moments. So because of Federer not being completely on his game, and Djokovic being clutch when he needed to be, I have to go with Djokovic on that one.

 

[abmk]

Debatable but fair enough and it's your opinion.

The stats reflect what I said. If you want to say federer was sub-par in 07 , but in the same tone say djokovic was so much better in USO 15 final in the same breath with federer having +8 and djokovic having -2, I'm going call BS on that.

Maybe you could say djokovic's level was a bit better in 15 final than federer's in 07 USO final, maybe -- that wouldn't sound as wrong. ( though I don't think that was the case )

 

[NatF]

No I mean in that particular match. We are not going to say who was better overall in those respective years because we will be debating all day. We are only going by the level in the finals of those two years. I just wasn't impressed by Federer at all in that '07 Final. True but he also didn't serve all that great tbh after that nasty fall. In that 2015 match, what impressed me was how good he was in those pressure moments. So because of Federer not being completely on his game, and Djokovic being clutch when he needed to be, I have to go with Djokovic on that one.

Djokovic was a mental rock in 2015. I do think the USO is the slam Djokovic most likely wins in this hypothetical. My issue is more with the logic behind the choice. Though I do think Federer would win the USO.

 

[abmk]

No I mean in that particular match. We are not going to say who was better overall in those respective years because we will be debating all day. We are only going by the level in the finals of those two years. I just wasn't impressed by Federer at all in that '07 Final. True but he also didn't serve all that great tbh after that nasty fall. In that 2015 match, what impressed me was how good he was in those pressure moments. So because of Federer not being completely on his game, and Djokovic being clutch when he needed to be, I have to go with Djokovic on that one.

yeah, that's because you are blinded by djokovic/recency bias. Wasn't federer clutch enough in USO 07 final ? Out of those 7 SPs, IIRC atleast 4 or 5 were saved by federer. djokovic only blew 2 or 3 of those -- > a reversal with the BPs case in 15 USO final ...

Maybe you weren't that impressed by federer in USO 07 final because of the high standards he had set previously, but that's your problem ...

 

[Deleted member 716271]

As NN pointed out, neither was the best year for Nadal or Federer, whereas it's Djokovic's best year to date.

I see 2 slams for Novak, 1 for Fed, and 1 for Nadal. (RG of course)

Suggesting 0 slams for ND is a little bit absurd imo.

 

[StannisTheMannis]

Probably 4 since Fed had Mono, Cancer, ALS, smallpox, and dengue that year

 

[Krish872007]

As NN pointed out, neither was the best year for Nadal or Federer, whereas it's Djokovic's best year to date.

I see 2 slams for Novak, 1 for Fed, and 1 for Nadal. (RG of course)

Suggesting 0 slams for ND is a little bit absurd imo.

Pretty reasonable. If I had to choose I would say Fed/Djoko split 3 (as a 2-1 split to either), and Nadal gets 1
Nadal at RG is unambiguous
Federer takes Wimby I think
Djoko edges out US
AO a bit of a toss up because of other factors coming into play

 

[NoleFam]

The stats reflect what I said. If you want to say federer was sub-par in 07 , but in the same tone say djokovic was so much better in USO 15 final in the same breath with federer having +8 and djokovic having -2, I'm going call BS on that.

Maybe you could say djokovic's level was a bit better in 15 final than federer's in 07 USO final, maybe -- that wouldn't sound as wrong. ( though I don't think that was the case )

It's just that Djokovic is strategically a different player than then. He has better defense to offense, returns, serve, point construction, etc. Their stats in either of those matches is not a good measurement to go by. Federer in '07 camped out on the baseline which is where Djokovic is his strongest versus the one in '15 who net rushed him hard and robbed him of time. Federer's serve or volley was not as good as it was in '15. Federer is a better athlete in '07 and better defense to offense though, and would push Djokovic in rallies but for me, it's just so many variables that would favor '15 Djokovic versus '07 Federer.

 

[abmk]

As NN pointed out, neither was the best year for Nadal or Federer, whereas it's Djokovic's best year to date.

I see 2 slams for Novak, 1 for Fed, and 1 for Nadal. (RG of course)

I don't think level wise at slams, it was the best slam for Novak

2011 AO > 2015 AO
2011 RG >~ 2015 RG
2015 wim > 2011 wim
2011 USO > 2015 USO

Suggesting 0 slams for ND is a little bit absurd imo.

it does seem absurd considering Novak was great in 15, but that could possibly happen because of the circumstances ; because 2015 wasn't his best year at his best slam ( AO ) , whereas 2007 was for federer at the AO ....Taking Nadal of RG 07 and federer at wimby 07/USO 07 is also logical.

Now instead if you were to put him in 06, he'd win the AO over federer ( if in the form in the final )

Or if you put 2011 Novak in 2007 instead, you could put stronger arguments for him at AO (&USO)

 

[FreeBird]

2015 Djokovic lost 3 times to 34 year old Fed and 4 times the year before.

Honestly I am not sure where is Djokovic going to get his wins over peak Fedal.

At least he didn't lose to players like Canas (was playing challengers at that time) and had no negative H2H against baby version of a certain player (2006).

 

[NoleFam]

Djokovic was a mental rock in 2015. I do think the USO is the slam Djokovic most likely wins in this hypothetical. My issue is more with the logic behind the choice. Though I do think Federer would win the USO.

Fair enough. I have to go with Djokovic though.

 

[metsman]

The stats reflect what I said. If you want to say federer was sub-par in 07 , but in the same tone say djokovic was so much better in USO 15 final in the same breath with federer having +8 and djokovic having -2, I'm going call BS on that.

Maybe you could say djokovic's level was a bit better in 15 final than federer's in 07 USO final, maybe -- that wouldn't sound as wrong. ( though I don't think that was the case )

Djokovic in 15 let Fed keep hanging around..He had chances to tie it in the 4th for godsakes and was an easy forehand winner away from serving for the third. Fed in 07 once he woke up, played brilliantly to win the second set and usual service restored in the third. 07erer in 4 against 15ovic.

What people forget is that while the first set was a really bad choke for Djokovic, and one that doesn't happen with a more experienced version, in the second set Federer didn't miss a first serve the rest of the set after teh SP. Nothing to do with Djokovic choking. Fed just raised his level.

 

[Deleted member 716271]

I don't think level wise at slams, it was the best slam for Novak

2011 AO > 2015 AO
2011 RG >~ 2015 RG
2015 wim > 2011 wim
2011 USO > 2015 USO



it does seem absurd considering Novak was great in 15, but that could possibly happen because of the circumstances ; because 2015 wasn't his best year at his best slam ( AO ) , whereas 2007 was for federer at the AO ....Taking Nadal of RG 07 and federer at wimby 07/USO 07 is also logical.

Now instead if you were to put him in 06, he'd win the AO over federer ( if in the form in the final )

Or if you put 2011 Novak in 2007 instead, you could put stronger arguments for him at AO (&USO)

I'm ceding RG to Nadal. If '11 Djoko was better at some slams than '15, it wasn't by much imo. Fed did win 3 slams in '07, so it would be a mistake to question his level too much, but most people think he showed higher level in at least 2 other years, and some cracks were beginning to show that year. Now, perhaps you think Federer would still win (i.e. his very good level is better than Novak's great). I disagree, but that's a somewhat fair position to have. However, I think even if you think Fed would be superior at AO/Wimb/US in this hypothetical matchup, you have to recognize Djokovic had a career year (or his 2nd career year) in '15 and was clicking on all cylinders. It would be hard for me to imagine him losing in 3 slam finals to Federer, with his mentality. I think if he lost at AO and W, he would find a way to win at the US.

 

[abmk]

It's just that Djokovic is strategically a different player than then. He has better defense, point construction, etc. Their stats in either of those matches is not a good measurement to go by. Federer in '07 camped out on the baseline which is where Djokovic is his strongest versus the one in '15 who net rushed him hard and robbed him of time. Federer's serve or volley was not as good as it was in '15. Federer is a better athlete in '07 and better defense to offense though, and would push Djokovic in rallies but for me, it's just so many variables that would favor '15 Djokovic versus '07 Federer.

The stats in those matches is a good measurement to go by to show their levels in those matches.

The discussion of how the match would go is a different one.

 

[robok9]

AO- Pretty slim chance given how Fed was playing in that tournament and the surface hadn't been slowed down. If the draw was different and Djokovic was on the opposite side of the draw from Fed, I'd put his chances at 1/3 in the final or 1/5 from the start of the tournament.
FO- Hard to argue he would beat Fed or Nadal that year on clay. I put his chances at 1/6
Wimbledon- If he was on Fed's half of the draw, I'd put him at 1/7 or 1/5 on Rafa's half. It's hard to tell how the match up would go against either player, but I'd have him the favorite in a SF against Nadal (but not the final) and a pretty even match slightly favoring Fed in either scenario.
USO- Given how good of a position he was in the sets 1 and 2 of the final, I would have him as a lock to win it. He is much more mentally tough now than then and probably wouldn't double fault at 6-5 to go to a tiebreak (and twice in the tiebreak).

 

[Deleted member 716271]

Pretty reasonable. If I had to choose I would say Fed/Djoko split 3 (as a 2-1 split to either), and Nadal gets 1
Nadal at RG is unambiguous
Federer takes Wimby I think
Djoko edges out US
AO a bit of a toss up because of other factors coming into play

Yeah, I think that's fair. You could say 1 slam to Nadal. and 1.5 slams each as an expected value to Fedovic. I think the odds of the field winning a slam with those 3 hypothetical players are very slim.

 

[tennisaddict]

At least he didn't lose to players like Canas (was playing challengers at that time) and had no negative H2H against baby version of a certain player (2006).

2006 baby had 2 majors in the previous 2 years. It is 4 years since Fed won a major. Nice try.

 

[abmk]

Djokovic in 15 let Fed keep hanging around..He had chances to tie it in the 4th for godsakes and was an easy forehand winner away from serving for the third. Fed in 07 once he woke up, played brilliantly to win the second set and usual service restored in the third. 07erer in 4 against 15ovic.

agree ...

What people forget is that while the first set was a really bad choke for Djokovic, and one that doesn't happen with a more experienced version, in the second set Federer didn't miss a first serve the rest of the set after teh SP. Nothing to do with Djokovic choking. Fed just raised his level.

Exactly . That's what I said before ..

15 djokovic definitely converts one of the SPs in the 1st set ; but 2nd set, he'd still lose those set points - one was an ace from federer and another was a FH in a rally that djokovic barely hit out ( was not a bad shot by any means ).

 

[uliks]

Djokovic wins AO, W, USO and WTF. Rafa probably gets FO... 2007 AO Federer level is badly overrated. He was playing against Robredo, Roddick and Gonzales for the title FGS...

 

[Emperor of Belgrade]

Another hypothetical thread.

 

[abmk]

I'm ceding RG to Nadal. If '11 Djoko was better at some slams than '15, it wasn't by much imo. Fed did win 3 slams in '07, so it would be a mistake to question his level too much, but most people think he showed higher level in at least 2 other years, and some cracks were beginning to show that year. Now, perhaps you think Federer would still win (i.e. his very good level is better than Novak's great). I disagree, but that's a somewhat fair position to have. However, I think even if you think Fed would be superior at AO/Wimb/US in this hypothetical matchup, you have to recognize Djokovic had a career year (or his 2nd career year) in '15 and was clicking on all cylinders. It would be hard for me to imagine him losing in 3 slam finals to Federer, with his mentality. I think if he lost at AO and W, he would find a way to win at the US.

Yeah, I do think djokovic could win one of those 3. But there's no way I see him winning 2 . But if unlucky, he could still end up with zero. It does seem 'shocking'/ 'absurd' , but that's how it is.

The cracks were more so at the smaller events than at the slams, though there was some dip at the slams as well .

I don't think federer's very good level is better than Novak's great level at RG or AO obviously. But at the USO and wimbledon ? Yeah.Besides, Novak's level wasn't great in the USO 15 final . It was very good and he was clutch, but so was federer in USO 07 final. Both basically a step down from their respective best levels and I'd have to favour federer there.

I think nadal's level in 07 wimby final and Novak's level in 15 wimby final were similar ( maybe nadal's a tad higher ). If federer could fend off nadal, who is a worse matchup for him,he takes down djokovic as well.

As far as 11 vs 15 djokovic goes, the difference in levels in the slams is more than significant IMO ( AO and USO in 11 and wimbledon in 15 )

 

[donquijote]

5 or 6

 

[Rusty Shackleford]

Another hypothetical thread.