How much of tennis is mental to you

[King No1e]

How much of tennis is mental in Atp top 100.
If you divide into 2 factors(mental and skills) Skills(everything you do with racket, touch shots running shots. + physical strength, speed stamina etc.)

I leave the definition of mental aspect to you. In the poll %80 means only %20 is about skills %80 is mental.

I think Djokovic being world #1 at 36 years old is pretty damn mental

 

[Dunlop300g]

"Tennis is 95% mental and the other 5% is in your head". That's what I read on a business card from a Sport's Psychologist at a future's tournament years ago. Gotta love that! At that level and above it's probably true. It's completely different at the amateur levels.

 

[jackson vile]

I have this dilemma, you can have a game/ability that everyone admires and desires, but if you don’t have mental capacity to see it fully through it’s virtually useless.

The mental aspect is the most difficult part, you either have it or you don’t.

I think Rafa is a great example of this in that he was supposed to be a clay court specialist that would never last, but he ended up dominating Federer and defeating him in the slam race.

At times it seemed that he almost willed it to be so, and then there it was

Thus mental is the most important part

 

[TheGoldenEra1990’s]

50-50 between talent and mental. Maybe 60-40
Mental ahead of talent. . If it was all based on talent Rios, McEnroe and Safin would be GOAT

 

[nolefam_2024]

Rios is not talented enough and same for Safin.

Safin got injured too often and affected his own game. Plus too many errors. Anyone can look talented for 1 match. Like Verdasco Fiasco.

Rios is 5 foot 9 player. He can't be GOAT in modern era.

 

[nolefam_2024]

Skills is not just hands skills. At the net.
Otherwise many doubles players would be the GOAT. Federer fans and OLD people in general give too much importance to net skills which is no longer so important.

 

[socallefty]

"Tennis is 95% mental and the other 5% is in your head". That's what I read on a business card from a Sport's Psychologist at a future's tournament years ago. Gotta love that! At that level and above it's probably true. It's completely different at the amateur levels.

There was probably a coach handing around a card saying “Tennis is 95% about skills and the other 5% is about fitness!” Don’t believe what you read on business cards or company mottos.

 

[big ted]

an example of the difference

The great servers who hit a lot of aces or unreturned serves are more likely to hit them on break point - see Sampras. The great returners are more likely to hit return winners on big points and win a lot of break points - see Djokovic. The great passing shot players are more likely to hit them on big points - see Nadal and Djokovic. Generally the best players do well in TBs— see Djokovic, Federer and Sampras who are all in the top 5 in TB win %. If your skills are better, you have the confidence plus skills to execute them on big points and then you develop a reputation for being mentally tough.

If your game has flaws, they will show up more in crunch time - see players like Zverev with double fault issues from inconsistent serve/toss technique.

my old coach said there was a saying that guy forget had the best practice forehand in the world lol.. i think similar to what you said above

 

[socallefty]

an example of the difference


my old coach said there was a saying that guy forget had the best practice forehand in the world lol.. i think similar to what you said above

He forgot about it in matches.

 

[Apun94]

How much of tennis is mental in Atp top 100.
If you divide into 2 factors(mental and skills) Skills(everything you do with racket, touch shots running shots. + physical strength, speed stamina etc.)

I leave the definition of mental aspect to you. In the poll %80 means only %20 is about skills %80 is mental.

Tennis skill and physical stamina are still by far the most important aspects of the game. People overestimate the mental side to be this all conquering weapon. Yes the big 3 were mental giants but really set them apart was that their B C D E game was a lot better than others', hence their consistency. Their bad day was still better than most players' best days. And that comes down most to skill, technique and physical toughness. Yes they also had the ability to mentally beat you and play better in the big moments but that was a few matches in the year. 80% of the matches they won by just having a better floor than anyone else

 

[nolefam_2024]

Tennis skill and physical stamina are still by far the most important aspects of the game. People overestimate the mental side to be this all conquering weapon. Yes the big 3 were mental giants but really set them apart was that their B C D E game was a lot better than others', hence their consistency. Their bad day was still better than most players' best days. And that comes down most to skill, technique and physical toughness. Yes they also had the ability to mentally beat you and play better in the big moments but that was a few matches in the year. 80% of the matches they won by just having a better floor than anyone else

Best example is Federer 2016 Wimbledon campaign. He was able to outlast Cilic even when he wasn't at his best.

We don't know how many times these players were feeling 100%. Everyone feels less than 100% most of the times. But when your technical and physical edge is very large, the mental side automatically gets better.

Opposite to that is when you are facing someone who is your superior. In that case, you need to feel PERFECT to be confident in a win.

Case in point Nadal 2008 Wimbledon. In his book he has literally written down, he felt perfect physically and that gave him confidence.

 

[Phenomenal]

I think Djokovic being world #1 at 36 years old is pretty damn mental

Good to see you. You were one of my favourite posters before i joined the forum.

 

[FlyingSaucer]

Proper context needs to be applied to the 2019 Wimb F as it wasn't a match played in a vacuum. Agree.

It's very easy to say "oh, Roger is mentally weak, Novak mental GOAT". Yes it was all the rage for ages, Still trotted out a healthy amount.

But once you look at the nuances, it becomes a different debate. Mmmh.

Fed was almost 38. That means extra pressure as he knew that could be his last chance. And given his horrid play in tiebreaks, I do think it has some validity. Sure.

Then, he knew he hadn't beaten Novak in a major in 7 years which again, leads to different mental baggage. Much easier for Novak to be mentally stronger when he knew this. Let's see him pull off that miracle against a guy he's not beaten in a major in 7 years. Hmmm. I think there are some problems here: 1) Fed DID beat Rafa at the AO after ten years (but had trouble closing that one too, just like the SF with the missed overhead); 2) "a guy" - we're dealing with the Big 3, though? It's simply not possible for Djo to ever be in that position

Then there's also the age factor. Easier to be mentally strong against a 38 year old than the reverse. And if Fed had been, say, 5 years younger, Djokovic might not have clutched his way through tiebreaks. Dunno about the specifics of 5 years but I get the point. Agree but, context-wise, you know Djo fans will say the crowd and the whole of England were against him that day...

 

[FlyingSaucer]

Best example is Federer 2016 Wimbledon campaign. He was able to outlast Cilic even when he wasn't at his best.

We don't know how many times these players were feeling 100%. Everyone feels less than 100% most of the times. But when your technical and physical edge is very large, the mental side automatically gets better.

Opposite to that is when you are facing someone who is your superior. In that case, you need to feel PERFECT to be confident in a win.

Case in point Nadal 2008 Wimbledon. In his book he has literally written down, he felt perfect physically and that gave him confidence.

What's your assessment of Djo facing Wawrinka in slams where this is concerned?

 

[nolefam_2024]

What's your assessment of Djo facing Wawrinka in slams where this is concerned?

Wawrinka posed matchup issue for Djokovic. He was able to push Djokovic back with heavy strokes while still staying very consistent. It was 2 front assault, both on fh and bh.
Someone like Andy Murray can do it on 1 side but Murray was sorely lacking on the fh.

Wawrinka took out depth, which is one of the weapons that Djokovic employs, by hitting to the middle again and again and pushing Djokovic back. Once Djokovic was pushed back, he became a lesser player which Wawrinka could take out rather convincingly.

I think its more technical than mental. Why couldn't others do the same that Wawrinka could? I think we would be wrong if we say others could not do it. Nadal did use similar technique vs Djokovic time and again, with his very sneaky backhand slice followed by heavy FH. But I think Wawrinka went one with step further with ability to hit big FH, HUGE BH with lots of topspin and backhand slice as well.

Very few players are of the same physicality like Wawrinka and Nadal. Not even Andy Murray can employ similar tactic. Give Djokovic pace and he will turn it against you efficiently. Still Djokovic held his own very well in grand slams winning AO13,15 USO13 encounters during Wawrinka's ascendency.

 

[RS]

Wawrinka possessed matchup issue for Djokovic. He was able to push Djokovic back with heavy strokes while still staying very consistent. It was 2 front assault, both on fh and bh.
Someone like Andy Murray can do it on 1 side but he was sorely lacking on the fh.

Wawrinka took depth out of questions that Djokovic can ask by hitting to the middle again and again and pushing Djokovic back. Once Djokovic was back, he became a lesser player which Wawrinka could take out rather convincingly.

I think its more technical than mental. Why couldn't others do the same thing Wawrinka could? I think we are wrong if we say others could not do it. Nadal did the same vs Djokovic time and again, with his very sneaky backhand slice followed by heavy FH but I think Wawrinka went with step further with ability to hit big FH, HUGE bh with lots of topspin and slice as well.

Even on the BH Murray not as effective DTL

 

[nolefam_2024]

Even on the BH Murray not as effective DTL

Depends on what surface type you are saying. Murray I think lacked the power on clay to absolutely dominate on that wing but on fast courts he had the ability to take the balls extremely early and with enough pace and could redirect the ball down the line very well.

Djokovic Murray AO matches to me looked like ping pong battles where both guys kept changing the direction on instant.

 

[FlyingSaucer]

Wawrinka posed matchup issue for Djokovic. He was able to push Djokovic back with heavy strokes while still staying very consistent. It was 2 front assault, both on fh and bh.
Someone like Andy Murray can do it on 1 side but Murray was sorely lacking on the fh.

Wawrinka took out depth, which is one of the weapons that Djokovic employs, by hitting to the middle again and again and pushing Djokovic back. Once Djokovic was pushed back, he became a lesser player which Wawrinka could take out rather convincingly.

I think its more technical than mental. Why couldn't others do the same that Wawrinka could? I think we would be wrong if we say others could not do it. Nadal did use similar technique vs Djokovic time and again, with his very sneaky backhand slice followed by heavy FH. But I think Wawrinka went one with step further with ability to hit big FH, HUGE BH with lots of topspin and backhand slice as well.

Very few players are of the same physicality like Wawrinka and Nadal. Not even Andy Murray can employ similar tactic. Give Djokovic pace and he will turn it against you efficiently. Still Djokovic held his own very well in grand slams winning AO13,15 USO13 encounters during Wawrinka's ascendency.

So, based on your previous post, Wawrinka has the technical edge in this match-up and is therefore more secure upstairs than Djo?

 

[nolefam_2024]

So, based on your previous post, Wawrinka has the technical edge in this match-up and is therefore more secure upstairs than Djo?

Definitely had technical edge. Is he more secure upstairs? Djokovic has washed him H2H. But for a few years, he was mentally stronger than Djokovic due to obvious edge.
H2H he was stronger vs Djokovic. But against Federer his game did not work and he became a like small cat, even losing matches from winnable positions.

 

[FlyingSaucer]

Definitely had technical edge. Is he more secure upstairs? Djokovic has washed him H2H. But for a few years, he was mentally stronger than Djokovic due to obvious edge.
H2H he was stronger vs Djokovic. But against Federer his game did not work and he became a like small cat, even losing matches from winnable positions.

Ok, good. That's all I wanted to know (your view).

 

[Hawks9451]

If you're more skilled and athletic, there's a huge comfort cushion. It's just like grappling, boxing, or any other individual sport. Mental strain only figures when the skill level is close, and then it's more a matter of enduring the discomfort of failure anxiety. It's hard to keep trying and stay clear-minded in that kind of discomfort, but it's not like you have to solve a puzzle or start doing trigonometry.

 

[nintendoplayer]

Just watching Rune vs Dimitrov right now and Rune's acting like a kid again. Permanently irritated by the crowd, kicking objects, screaming around, arguing with the ref....while Dimitrov stays ice cold.
Roaring like a maniac after winning the first set in a tie break
Let's see who wins

 

[Apun94]

Best example is Federer 2016 Wimbledon campaign. He was able to outlast Cilic even when he wasn't at his best.

We don't know how many times these players were feeling 100%. Everyone feels less than 100% most of the times. But when your technical and physical edge is very large, the mental side automatically gets better.

Opposite to that is when you are facing someone who is your superior. In that case, you need to feel PERFECT to be confident in a win.

Case in point Nadal 2008 Wimbledon. In his book he has literally written down, he felt perfect physically and that gave him confidence.

When your floor is higher than others', you win more matches than them, which in turn gives you more confidence and mental resilience. It can make you a lot calmer in the biggest moments. I think one of the reasons Fedalovic were the best in tight moments came down to having won so much with their B, C games just by having better skill than others

 

[tennis24x7]

I think mental is vastly exaggerated.

Things that matter in tennis are weapons and stamina.

If you don't have these then even if you have mental strength of a spartan, it wouldn't matter. Yet every single time people talk about mental strength.

It is important but just when you have everything else also lined up. And the people with high mental strength are most likely the people who have very reliable game with less weakness and high stamina.

In the end I think it's all about skills. When you are very skilled then you can feel very confident.

Wrong. There are people with weapons when they are coming up but fall by the wayside as during clutch moments their weapons don't fire. This the core of any sport not just tennis.

 

[nolefam_2024]

Wrong. There are people with weapons when they are coming up but fall by the wayside as during clutch moments their weapons don't fire. This the core of any sport not just tennis.

I don't know what you see but its not sports. If you think what I wrote is wrong.

 

[mtommer]

Djokovic was asked in SI interview by John Wertheim how big a target he is planning to hit, he said it's like size of a grape.

This is technique. If you know you have the ability to consistently hit such target, it is very easy. But a guy like Verdasco Fiasco when stretched to the corners just can't hit it, and will be forced to make many errors.

It's not technique, only. However, it's also not as mental as many like to say. It's also about having the innate physical attributes that let you anticipate, react to changing variables on the fly (for example seeing something just as the opponent starts to swing or midswing), get into proper position, etc. in order to get that technique into play.

I'll give you a good example. Try returning a 125+ serve. I've done it. Overall, not consistently and hardly consistently well when I do. Now, face the same serve and just try to stop the ball as in just collecting the balls on your side...like in a warmup, drill or something. You can almost always just stop the ball. In fact, most I've seen can do so nice, relaxed and rather easily. For the best of the best like Federer, Nadal, etc., that is what it's like with actual match play balls.... it's just....easy. When they play each other, well, not so much, as we have seen play out in real life. When it comes to all pros, they're all capable of playing at top of the top level but they can't do it consistently like the top of the top. That's why there's upsets and bad days.

 

[nolefam_2024]

It's not technique, only. However, it's also not as mental as many like to say. It's also about having the innate physical attributes that let you anticipate, react to changing variables on the fly (for example seeing something just as the opponent starts to swing or midswing), get into proper position, etc. in order to get that technique into play.

I'll give you a good example. Try returning a 125+ serve. I've done it. Overall, not consistently and hardly consistently well when I do. Now, face the same serve and just try to stop the ball as in just collecting the balls on your side...like in a warmup, drill or something. You can almost always just stop the ball. In fact, most I've seen can do so nice, relaxed and rather easily. For the best of the best like Federer, Nadal, etc., that is what it's like with actual match play balls.... it's just....easy. When they play each other, well, not so much, as we have seen play out in real life. When it comes to all pros, they're all capable of playing at top of the top level but they can't do it consistently like the top of the top. That's why there's upsets and bad days.

I agree that staying relaxed is important but not fully agreeing that it's all mental strength is about.

Let's take example of rune and coaching. His coaches keep telling him to calm down and play his game etc. it's all part of coach's job. But other part on both the coach and players part is finding solutions when something is not working. So if a coach is asking you to stay on baseline and you don't see immidiete results, do you get irritated or have confidence in yourself to get results eventually? That's part of mental strength as well. And you can avoid coach in this case as well, I am talking about how a player feels about the chances on winning the match no matter what the score is.

Medvedev in Miami semis tried to play very aggressive tennis, but sinner started clobbering him and meddy immidietly stepped back. He was very confused on how to play. Is that not mental weakness as well? I agree part of this is his technical weaknesses as well but someone like a Rafa will stick to what they know is best for a long time before abandoning the play.

I liked one more match in this context. USOpen 2011 semis between fed and Nole. Fed had perfect gameplan. He knew serving very fast and breaking Djokovic rhythm is the way to win. And he got 2 sets lead by playing very aggressive tennis. But then what happened after set 2? He completely collapsed letting Djokovic back in the match. It's same thing that happens with many players when they get a brain fog let's say for some time.

Now what mental strength may not help us is when there is huge weakness that will be exploited by opponent. You can try to stay positive but knowing you have a weaker side is very demoralizing. It's probably what players like Tsitsipas feel when playing a strong serve or top player. I don't think Tsitsipas lacks mental strength unlike Zverev from the same era. But he must be feeling pretty low confident when his serve is under constant pressure knowing his own return sucks. And same thing on backhand. You can't fake confidence for a long run.

 

[nolefam_2024]

I agree that staying relaxed is important but not fully agreeing that it's all mental strength is about.

Let's take example of rune and coaching. His coaches keep telling him to calm down and play his game etc. it's all part of coach's job. But other part on both the coach and players part is finding solutions when something is not working. So if a coach is asking you to stay on baseline and you don't see immidiete results, do you get irritated or have confidence in yourself to get results eventually? That's part of mental strength as well. And you can avoid coach in this case as well, I am talking about how a player feels about the chances on winning the match no matter what the score is.

Medvedev in Miami semis tried to play very aggressive tennis, but sinner started clobbering him and meddy immidietly stepped back. He was very confused on how to play. Is that not mental weakness as well? I agree part of this is his technical weaknesses as well but someone like a Rafa will stick to what they know is best for a long time before abandoning the play.

I liked one more match in this context. USOpen 2011 semis between fed and Nole. Fed had perfect gameplan. He knew serving very fast and breaking Djokovic rhythm is the way to win. And he got 2 sets lead by playing very aggressive tennis. But then what happened after set 2? He completely collapsed letting Djokovic back in the match. It's same thing that happens with many players when they get a brain fog let's say for some time.

Now what mental strength may not help us is when there is huge weakness that will be exploited by opponent. You can try to stay positive but knowing you have a weaker side is very demoralizing. It's probably what players like Tsitsipas feel when playing a strong serve or top player. I don't think Tsitsipas lacks mental strength unlike Zverev from the same era. But he must be feeling pretty low confident when his serve is under constant pressure knowing his own return sucks. And same thing on backhand. You can't fake confidence for a long run.

That's why to me having less weaknesses and huge stamina is very much related to mental strength. If you have the stamina, you don't need to worry about long matches and close scores. Just keep playing and most of the times you should win and if sometimes the opponent gets the win, you just say the opponent was too good for the day and move on.

 

[nolefam_2024]

It's the same thing mardy fish found out in his documentary. Got lean, got very fit and was able to stay in rallies longer and suddenly he is inside top 10.

But sadly he had panick attacks as a consequence. He tried to fake it until he makes it and was driven out of the sport as a result.

So to some extent I do agree mental stuff matters. It just gets vastly exaggerated in discussions.

 

[nolefam_2024]

This is 100% what mental is about to me. @Phenomenal see Rafa has put it in words for us.

 

[nolefam_2024]

 

[socallefty]

Improve your serve, return, FH, BH, volley, OH, endurance and movement - suddenly you will get twice as mentally strong. Happened to Djokovic. Happened to Sinner.

 

[tennis24x7]

I don't know what you see but its not sports. If you think what I wrote is wrong.

If you can explain why Federer who was throwing tantrums and losing matches when he was coming up. He had the technique, he had the shots. Why did he not win until he calmed down?

 

[nolefam_2024]

If you can explain why Federer who was throwing tantrums and losing matches when he was coming up. He had the technique, he had the shots. Why did he not win until he calmed down?

Did he have stamina , power? I have not watched Federer growing up at all. So I am very incapable to answer this.

 

[tennis24x7]

Did he have stamina , power? I have not watched Federer growing up at all. So I am very incapable to answer this.

His power was there, maybe lacking a bit in stamina, he himself has said that once he realized that losing his cool was hurting him, that is when he calmed down.

 

[nolefam_2024]

His power was there, maybe lacking a bit in stamina, he himself has said that once he realized that losing his cool was hurting him, that is when he calmed down.

So lets say both his stamina and mental game were lacking. With his skills, there is very little chance he was going to be held back but without stamina very likely.

I didn't say mental part is unimportant. Just that its much lesser part. 10/20 %. Take example of Fish. Despite suffering mental hurdles, he reached top 10 status when he got his stamina in control.

 

[socallefty]

Not losing your cool often during matches is a bare minimum to give yourself a chance to win. I would not equate that with being mentally strong. For me, that equates to playing well on big points (game points, break points, TBs) and late in sets.

 

[tennis24x7]

So lets say both his stamina and mental game were lacking. With his skills, there is very little chance he was going to be held back but without stamina very likely.

I didn't say mental part is unimportant. Just that its much lesser part. 10/20 %. Take example of Fish. Despite suffering mental hurdles, he reached top 10 status when he got his stamina in control.

I agree with you 80%, I don't value top 10 status, for me winning a GS is the ultimate proof of a player reaching the highest echelon of tennis. The problem with Fish was the burgers and classic American arrogance. He himself has talked about it in a documentary. Fish was never that good, the same can be argued of Berdych, Ferrer, Nalbandian and others who came close.