Hypothetical All time greats who would have owned another All time great in their mutual primes?

[redrover]

There are rare cases we have seen an All time great dominate another All time great when both were in their primes due to the match up. One possible example might be Navratilova over Evert, Navratilova winning 13 matches a row over Evert in Evert's prime. Another might be Nadal dominating Federer, atleast early in their history.

What are some hypothetical examples that never happened where you believe due to the match up someone would have dominated another All time great in their primes. Here are some that I believe:

Navratilova over Graf- Their most neutral meeting ground is the US Open with grass and indoors favoring Navratilova, and clay or rebound ace favoring Graf. Navratilova is 4-1 vs Graf at the US Open despite being 30 or older in 4 of the 5 meetings. Pretty easy to imagine what would happen prime to prime.

Sampras over Nadal- I believe Sampras would be a nightmare match up for Nadal, far worse than Federer, and even worse than Djokovic who is Nadal's toughest opponent in his time. They also wouldnt play on clay for Nadal to score wins since Sampras sucks too much to reach Nadal more than once or twice by fluke.

Both Williams sisters over Seles- Even past her prime the match up was emphatic enough to show me both Venus and Serena are absolute nightmare match ups for Seles and would probably win almost all meetings, except some on clay, in their mutual primes most likely.

McEnroe over Djokovic- Djokovic hates players who deprive him of rythym. Nobody would do this better than a prime Mcenroe most likely, particularly his peak years like 80, 81, and 84.

 

[70後]

Lendl over Djokovic. I always said that Lendl was the guy to stop Djokovic. The way that Djokovic is strong, Lendl is even stronger. Murray had his best wins on Djokovic when he had Lendl glaring down at him anyway. Now we have this Z guy. A Lendl vs Djokovic match would have Lendl finally battering him senseless in the 15th round.

BJK vs Navratilova. MN leads the h2h but BJK is 13 years older. According to MN, she hated playing BJK who "knew exactly how to pick her game apart."

Little Mo vs Billie Jean. Somehow, I suspect Little Mo would have been BJ's terror.

Connors vs Federer. Federer has played almost every style but one; Connors' rally volleyer style. There is a 'tube match of Sampras vs Connors, obviously Sampras was 20 years younger and physically way fresher, but the point was that in rallies, Sampras didn't necessarily have the edge. He couldn't dominate Connors off the ground. I think that Connors as a contemporary of either Sampras or Fed could hold his own no doubt.

Great player is great player regardless of era.

 

[70後]

Navratilova over Graf- Their most neutral meeting ground is the US Open with grass and indoors favoring Navratilova, and clay or rebound ace favoring Graf. Navratilova is 4-1 vs Graf at the US Open despite being 30 or older in 4 of the 5 meetings. Pretty easy to imagine what would happen prime to prime.

MN was also up 5-3 in the third and at 5-4 was swerving for the match at French 1987 but double faulted to lose serve. Although it was clay, I thought MN played a better match. The reverse was at Wimbledon, Graf played better, MN got away with it. Whenever they met, MN seemed a bit psyched by Graf.

Peak Martina may not be the non favourite vs Graf even on clay, if she believes she will win. I think her avoiding Graf after losing once or twice on clay was her lack of confidence. According to Shriver, she said that Martina was losing to players other than Graf in 1987 and that made her lose confidence. (MN lost to Mandlikova at AO). MN was going downhill in 1987, but playing just a bit better, more like 86, she could have won three slams or even four that year.

Peak Seles vs peak Martina on clay or RA is a different story. Seles would take nearly every match. Martina's game fits into Seles'.

 

[BrokenGears]

There are rare cases we have seen an All time great dominate another All time great when both were in their primes due to the match up. One possible example might be Navratilova over Evert, Navratilova winning 13 matches a row over Evert in Evert's prime. Another might be Nadal dominating Federer, atleast early in their history.

What are some hypothetical examples that never happened where you believe due to the match up someone would have dominated another All time great in their primes. Here are some that I believe:

Navratilova over Graf- Their most neutral meeting ground is the US Open with grass and indoors favoring Navratilova, and clay or rebound ace favoring Graf. Navratilova is 4-1 vs Graf at the US Open despite being 30 or older in 4 of the 5 meetings. Pretty easy to imagine what would happen prime to prime.

Sampras over Nadal- I believe Sampras would be a nightmare match up for Nadal, far worse than Federer, and even worse than Djokovic who is Nadal's toughest opponent in his time. They also wouldnt play on clay for Nadal to score wins since Sampras sucks too much to reach Nadal more than once or twice by fluke.

Both Williams sisters over Seles- Even past her prime the match up was emphatic enough to show me both Venus and Serena are absolute nightmare match ups for Seles and would probably win almost all meetings, except some on clay, in their mutual primes most likely.

McEnroe over Djokovic- Djokovic hates players who deprive him of rythym. Nobody would do this better than a prime Mcenroe most likely, particularly his peak years like 80, 81, and 84.

How would Sampras be a terrible matchup for Nadal? I'm pretty sure Pete's BH is even worse than Federer's. On fast courts and grass, it's no contest, but anywhere else Pete wouldn't own Nadal.

 

[BrokenGears]

Lendl over Djokovic. I always said that Lendl was the guy to stop Djokovic. The way that Djokovic is strong, Lendl is even stronger. Murray had his best wins on Djokovic when he had Lendl glaring down at him anyway. Now we have this Z guy. A Lendl vs Djokovic match would have Lendl finally battering him senseless in the 15th round.

BJK vs Navratilova. MN leads the h2h but BJK is 13 years older. According to MN, she hated playing BJK who "knew exactly how to pick her game apart."

Little Mo vs Billie Jean. Somehow, I suspect Little Mo would have been BJ's terror.

Connors vs Federer. Federer has played almost every style but one; Connors' rally volleyer style. There is a 'tube match of Sampras vs Connors, obviously Sampras was 20 years younger and physically way fresher, but the point was that in rallies, Sampras didn't necessarily have the edge. He couldn't dominate Connors off the ground. I think that Connors as a contemporary of either Sampras or Fed could hold his own no doubt.

Great player is great player regardless of era.

You think Lendl would beat Djokovic 2011 or 2015?

 

[The Green Mile]

I'm thinking Rosewall vs Nadal on clay would be hilarious.

 

[70後]

You think Lendl would beat Djokovic 2011 or 2015?

Lendl was pretty good in 85-87.

 

[Pheasant]

Lendl was pretty good in 85-87.

I agree. Lendl’s 1985-87 run was historic. He was 34-7 vs the top 5, which includes 21 wins in straight gets. Given the fact that Lendl played on fast courts with a tiny racket where 80 % of those top 5 won several slams, I would say a peak Lendl would be nightmare matchup for anybody.

Lendl discovered that he had a sky-high cholesterol level in 1984. He was extremely upset that he was gassed after his 1984 USO match vs McEnroe. After that match, he went to the doctor because he vowed to never run out of energy again. Lendl fixed his cholesterol problem and the rest is history.

It is great to see Lendl get some credit here.

 

[rueandre]

MN was also up 5-3 in the third and at 5-4 was swerving for the match at French 1987 but double faulted to lose serve. Although it was clay, I thought MN played a better match. The reverse was at Wimbledon, Graf played better, MN got away with it. Whenever they met, MN seemed a bit psyched by Graf.

Peak Martina may not be the non favourite vs Graf even on clay, if she believes she will win. I think her avoiding Graf after losing once or twice on clay was her lack of confidence. According to Shriver, she said that Martina was losing to players other than Graf in 1987 and that made her lose confidence. (MN lost to Mandlikova at AO). MN was going downhill in 1987, but playing just a bit better, more like 86, she could have won three slams or even four that year.

Peak Seles vs peak Martina on clay or RA is a different story. Seles would take nearly every match. Martina's game fits into Seles'.

I think peak to peak Martina would be heavy favorite over grass on grass, indoors or carpet, medium to fast hard courts. Clay I think would be a 50/50 split, maybe slight edge to Martina. Rebound ace would be Steffi's edge. Overall Martina would definitely get the better in that match up, particularly as before 88 there wasnt even rebound ace.

Seles vs Martina, I agree Seles takes practically every match peak to peak on clay or rebound ace. Just an awful match up for Martina on those surfaces, far worse than either Evert or Graf. Martina would win the majority of matches on grass, indoor/carpet, or perhaps even faster hard courts though. Even in old age she was pushing peak Monica hard, and sometimes beating her on those courts, so in her prime you would have to give her atleast even odds, or the slight advantage.

 

[rueandre]

Lendl over Djokovic. I always said that Lendl was the guy to stop Djokovic. The way that Djokovic is strong, Lendl is even stronger. Murray had his best wins on Djokovic when he had Lendl glaring down at him anyway. Now we have this Z guy. A Lendl vs Djokovic match would have Lendl finally battering him senseless in the 15th round.

BJK vs Navratilova. MN leads the h2h but BJK is 13 years older. According to MN, she hated playing BJK who "knew exactly how to pick her game apart."

Little Mo vs Billie Jean. Somehow, I suspect Little Mo would have been BJ's terror.

Connors vs Federer. Federer has played almost every style but one; Connors' rally volleyer style. There is a 'tube match of Sampras vs Connors, obviously Sampras was 20 years younger and physically way fresher, but the point was that in rallies, Sampras didn't necessarily have the edge. He couldn't dominate Connors off the ground. I think that Connors as a contemporary of either Sampras or Fed could hold his own no doubt.

Great player is great player regardless of era.

I agree Lendl would have owned Djokovic. He would have been Djokovic's ultimate nightmare match up, far worse than even peak Federer or peak Nadal would have ever been. Although at the Australian Open Djokovic would probably win 7 out of 10, but everywhere else Lendl would be the favorite, maybe even grass, despite Djokovic being a better grass court player.

I agree King would be a really bad match up for Navratilova prime to prime. 37 year old King scored a couple beatdowns over Martina even. Martina talked in her book how she hated how sneaky and schrewdly King played.

I dont know if I agree on Connors vs Federer.

 

[davidjaan1982]

Chris evert over Margaret Court.

 

[Phoenix1983]

Sampras would best Nadal for sure.

 

[rueandre]

The Williams sisters are two others who would have owned Graf in their mutual primes. Despite that Venus achieved far less than Graf (in part due to the far stronger competition she had) she would be a nightmare match up for prime Graf.

 

[pat200]

rueandre every single wta tour player would own graf peak to peak play. she won 22 grand slams because whenever anyone played her, they would play their worst possible tennis. it is a wonder how someone like her even won a single grand slam. happy now?

 

[mxmx]

I do not think peak Seles would be owned by anybody, but it's close between her and Serena.

Peak Sampras to me would own everyone including Federer. His only competitive match against Federer is not a true indication of prime Sampras, who was not close to his best that day and was caught off guard. Proper preperation would be a different outcome. Federer was just more hungry and better prepared.

Only Agassi and Djokovic would deal with half of Sampras' serves...

The Big 4 are the only ones I feel who would have been top 10 in the previous eras. I have my doubts about the rest of the field.

I did not see that much of Lendl. I do though agree that Lendl is underrated after seeing some of his footage online. He also seemed hungry and focused, something modern players lack.

Would people say that Becker too is underrated?

 

[lewisgibson]

The Williams sisters are and would be nightmare match ups for Seles peak to peak. Even Venus despite that she ranks lower in tennis history all time rankings than Seles. The thing to remember is Venus would not even be playing Seles much on slower courts as she would usually be losing before she reached her, and that is where hypothetically Seles would probably get most of her wins but they wouldn't be coming as Venus would rarely even be playing her. Seles would be reaching semis and finals a lot to lose to Venus on faster courts though, apart from maybe grass. This would probably lead to a fairly one sided head to head in Venus's favor, probably not the 9-1 it currently is though.

I do not know about owning but I agree Federer would have a tough time against Sampras. He would struggle to return Sampras's serve for one thing, Agassi is a better returner than Federer and even he can hardly ever get Sampras's serve back in play when Sampras is serving well. They would barely play any matches on clay either.

Navratilova would be a very bad opponent for Graf. Probably a worse match up for her than even Seles was.

I think Graf and Evert would both be bad match ups for Court. Moreso than Navratilova who I think Court would hold her own against.

 

[jrepac]

I agree. Lendl’s 1985-87 run was historic. He was 34-7 vs the top 5, which includes 21 wins in straight gets. Given the fact that Lendl played on fast courts with a tiny racket where 80 % of those top 5 won several slams, I would say a peak Lendl would be nightmare matchup for anybody.

Lendl discovered that he had a sky-high cholesterol level in 1984. He was extremely upset that he was gassed after his 1984 USO match vs McEnroe. After that match, he went to the doctor because he vowed to never run out of energy again. Lendl fixed his cholesterol problem and the rest is history.

It is great to see Lendl get some credit here.

I did not know that; interesting, since he was a skinny bean pole guy. But, would high lipids sap his energy? In his '83 and '84 GS losses to Connors, USO and W, respectively, he really did seem to run out of gas, to a guy who was considerably older than him. In '84 USO, I thought he had a good shot at beating Mac, given Mac was up to midnight in a 5 set semi, but Ivan did not seem to have much in the tank. Tho, he too had a 5 setter the day before. Whatever he did, fitness wise, it obviously worked.

 

[lewisgibson]

I did not know that; interesting, since he was a skinny bean pole guy. But, would high lipids sap his energy? In his '83 and '84 GS losses to Connors, USO and W, respectively, he really did seem to run out of gas, to a guy who was considerably older than him. In '84 USO, I thought he had a good shot at beating Mac, given Mac was up to midnight in a 5 set semi, but Ivan did not seem to have much in the tank. Tho, he too had a 5 setter the day before. Whatever he did, fitness wise, it obviously worked.

I don't think the 84 US Open blowout was fitness related at all; eg- I don't think he was tired from the Cash match, or even more tired than McEnroe who had the even tougher match. I think it was a combination of a)he just mentally still wasn't quite there on the big stage, despite finally breaking his slam goose egg in a spectacular RG final where he still had some help from McEnroe, and this was shown again in another pretty lackluster performance in that final b)outside of clay, McEnroe and Connors were still the 2 best players in the world at that point as was shown at Wimbledon that year too where Lendl lost to Connors in the semis. I guess a 3rd would be I think McEnroe was so dominant he was generally surprised to be pushed so hard by Connors in the semis, thinking outside of clay nobody could press him like that at that point, and it made him extra sharp and focused for the final vs Lendl with no possible over confidence.

He might have improved his fitness for 85, probably did, but I think it was more he finally fully matured into a champion mentally, and he also improved his game a lot, improved his backhand, improved his return of serve, his serve got even bigger, and he got better tactically. That plus Connors and McEnroe declining, and Wilander even starting to slump in late 85/86 helped bigtime.

 

[jrepac]

I agree Lendl would have owned Djokovic. He would have been Djokovic's ultimate nightmare match up, far worse than even peak Federer or peak Nadal would have ever been. Although at the Australian Open Djokovic would probably win 7 out of 10, but everywhere else Lendl would be the favorite, maybe even grass, despite Djokovic being a better grass court player.

I agree King would be a really bad match up for Navratilova prime to prime. 37 year old King scored a couple beatdowns over Martina even. Martina talked in her book how she hated how sneaky and schrewdly King played.

I dont know if I agree on Connors vs Federer.

I think Mac is more of a problem for Djoker; as others have said, he likes rythm and Mac is the robber of pace off the ground. Not to mention the S&V. I think Novak would have his hands full w/prime Mac, as the best baseliners of the day clearly did. Lendl v. Novak would be very interesting and I don't think Lendl would have "owned" him. Ivan would have an advantage off the serve, but other than that, Novak is incredibly sound off the ground and could pressure Ivan....the way Connors could, for instance.

Peak Navratilova could take out anyone/everyone on nearly every surface. Sure, slow red clay would be her nemesis against, let's say Seles. But, I think she is 50/50 vs. Graf on that surface. A shade better than Steffi on hard court, and moreso on grass, IMHO.

Connors - Fed would be another interesting one. Fed has more weapons, but JC could cause him a lot of problems....particularly on faster surfaces where he would be on the attack. It might depend on how well JC returned his serve, frankly. And if he could rush Fed off the ground, which is possible. Peak Mac v. Fed would be a great fantasy match...

 

[lewisgibson]

Graf probably does better than 50/50 vs Navratilova on clay. She lost the majority of times she met Evert on clay, even in her prime, and while Evert might be a marginaly better clay courter than Graf, Graf is still a tougher opponent in general for Martina than Chris is I think, despite that Martina is a bad opponent matchup wise for both Evert and Graf, she has admitted when she really matured and got fit she finds the power of people like Graf, Seles, and even Mandlikova and Sukova (when they play well, both are erratic of course) than Evert. I see Graf DEFINITELY winning the majority of their clay meetings prime to prime, like 7 or 8 out of 10. Also rebound ace, if they happened to play when it was inexistence, Graf would definitely have the edge. I give Martina the edge on all of fast hard court, carpet, or probably grass though. Medium-ish hard courts close to 50/50, maybe prime Martina slightly favored.

 

[lewisgibson]

Based on Federer's history vs Nadal and Djokovic, both who trouble him greatly even in his prime, I agree Connors would be a tough opponent. Federer has trouble with players who can a) potentially outplay him off the ground which very few can, but obviously Nadal and Djokovic can, and Connors also could, b)who are real grinders, get lots of balls back, and hang in mentally, never giving up on the match even when behind, which also fits Connors to a T. Connors is also different from Nadal and Djokovic in that he finishes more points at the net despite playing a mainly baseline oriented game. I could see him giving Federer fits for sure, probably wouldn't have a winning record in Federer's absolute peak years, but would give him fits.

 

[lewisgibson]

Sampras would best Nadal for sure.

Maybe, but I highly doubt Sampras would post a single win over clay, even if they happened to meet 5 or 6 times on it. Well maybe if he faced a 16 or 17 year old Nadal in say 94 or 96, and even then I would guess a Nadal win.

 

[jrepac]

I don't think the 84 US Open blowout was fitness related at all; eg- I don't think he was tired from the Cash match, or even more tired than McEnroe who had the even tougher match. I think it was a combination of a)he just mentally still wasn't quite there on the big stage, despite finally breaking his slam goose egg in a spectacular RG final where he still had some help from McEnroe, and this was shown again in another pretty lackluster performance in that final b)outside of clay, McEnroe and Connors were still the 2 best players in the world at that point as was shown at Wimbledon that year too where Lendl lost to Connors in the semis. I guess a 3rd would be I think McEnroe was so dominant he was generally surprised to be pushed so hard by Connors in the semis, thinking outside of clay nobody could press him like that at that point, and it made him extra sharp and focused for the final vs Lendl with no possible over confidence.

He might have improved his fitness for 85, probably did, but I think it was more he finally fully matured into a champion mentally, and he also improved his game a lot, improved his backhand, improved his return of serve, his serve got even bigger, and he got better tactically. That plus Connors and McEnroe declining, and Wilander even starting to slump in late 85/86 helped bigtime.

in the early 80's I could not tell if Ivan's problem was fitness or mental, or both? He had the game, and at times, could blow right through Mac and Connors. But he did seem to succumb to pressure on the big stages...which maybe was stress translating into physical exhaustion. Interesting point re: Mac...having barely survived that semi, he was likely supremely confident

 

[lewisgibson]

in the early 80's I could not tell if Ivan's problem was fitness or mental, or both? He had the game, and at times, could blow right through Mac and Connors. But he did seem to succumb to pressure on the big stages...which maybe was stress translating into physical exhaustion. Interesting point re: Mac...having barely survived that semi, he was likely supremely confident

He especialy seemed to have a thing mentally when it came to Connors. McEnroe he atleast beat quite a few times before 85, including in numerous big matches, even taking him out at the U.S Open. Connors seemed to have a real dislike of Lendl and extra determation when playing him, and Lendl seemed almost scared when playing Connors before he started his long win streak over an aging post prime Connors. I think the Lendl-Connors rivalry was largely psychological. Connors' shade at Lendl in press conferences at the 92 U.S Open, both before and after their match, were hilarious, and really gave some insight into their story.

 

[Pheasant]

I did not know that; interesting, since he was a skinny bean pole guy. But, would high lipids sap his energy? In his '83 and '84 GS losses to Connors, USO and W, respectively, he really did seem to run out of gas, to a guy who was considerably older than him. In '84 USO, I thought he had a good shot at beating Mac, given Mac was up to midnight in a 5 set semi, but Ivan did not seem to have much in the tank. Tho, he too had a 5 setter the day before. Whatever he did, fitness wise, it obviously worked.

Lendl’s endurance became legendary after he fixed his 300+ cholesterol problem. He once celebrated a tennis victory by going on a 37 Mille bike ride. 1985-1987 Lendl was machine and had a top-5 ever run during that time span, IMHO. It is too bad that injuries destroyed his 1988 season: fractured foot, strained abdomin muscle, strained quad, and then at the USO, he had torn cartilage in his shoulder. He had surgery immediately afterwards. Acute back pain starter creeping in and eventually ended his career in 1994.

 

[jrepac]

Lendl’s endurance became legendary after he fixed his 300+ cholesterol problem. He once celebrated a tennis victory by going on a 37 Mille bike ride. 1985-1987 Lendl was machine and had a top-5 ever run during that time span, IMHO. It is too bad that injuries destroyed his 1988 season: fractured foot, strained abdomin muscle, strained quad, and then at the USO, he had torn cartilage in his shoulder. He had surgery immediately afterwards. Acute back pain starter creeping in and eventually ended his career in 1994.

Yeah, for 3 years, 85-87, he was pretty much untouchable. Mac was a head case, Connors got old. Wilander, Becker, Cash got in some important wins, however.

 

[BGod]

Really depends on surface and equipment equalisation.

I mean say Nadal is using Agassi's racquet but without poly strings I think Andre beats him on grass and hard. Sampras slaughters Nadal except on clay given Nadal's losses to guys like Brown.

Novak is interesting. I think he beats Sampras on hard 60%.

Federer wouldn't get owned by anyone but prime Lendl I can see troubling him as would Novak of course.

Then the ultimate what if with Nadal on clay. It's hard with equipment but again give Nadal a Donnay in 1982 and see how he does with Wilander/Lendl/Borg in a FO. Maybe wins 40%.

 

[Midaso240]

Lendl over Djokovic. I always said that Lendl was the guy to stop Djokovic. The way that Djokovic is strong, Lendl is even stronger. Murray had his best wins on Djokovic when he had Lendl glaring down at him anyway. Now we have this Z guy. A Lendl vs Djokovic match would have Lendl finally battering him senseless in the 15th round.

BJK vs Navratilova. MN leads the h2h but BJK is 13 years older. According to MN, she hated playing BJK who "knew exactly how to pick her game apart."

Little Mo vs Billie Jean. Somehow, I suspect Little Mo would have been BJ's terror.

Connors vs Federer. Federer has played almost every style but one; Connors' rally volleyer style. There is a 'tube match of Sampras vs Connors, obviously Sampras was 20 years younger and physically way fresher, but the point was that in rallies, Sampras didn't necessarily have the edge. He couldn't dominate Connors off the ground. I think that Connors as a contemporary of either Sampras or Fed could hold his own no doubt.

Great player is great player regardless of era.

 

[davidjaan1982]

The Williams sisters are and would be nightmare match ups for Seles peak to peak. Even Venus despite that she ranks lower in tennis history all time rankings than Seles. The thing to remember is Venus would not even be playing Seles much on slower courts as she would usually be losing before she reached her, and that is where hypothetically Seles would probably get most of her wins but they wouldn't be coming as Venus would rarely even be playing her. Seles would be reaching semis and finals a lot to lose to Venus on faster courts though, apart from maybe grass. This would probably lead to a fairly one sided head to head in Venus's favor, probably not the 9-1 it currently is though.

I do not know about owning but I agree Federer would have a tough time against Sampras. He would struggle to return Sampras's serve for one thing, Agassi is a better returner than Federer and even he can hardly ever get Sampras's serve back in play when Sampras is serving well. They would barely play any matches on clay either.

Navratilova would be a very bad opponent for Graf. Probably a worse match up for her than even Seles was.

I think Graf and Evert would both be bad match ups for Court. Moreso than Navratilova who I think Court would hold her own against.

Yes, Evert would have been a nightmare match up for Court.