If Nadal wins 14 slams, would he leapfrog over Sampras in terms of Greatness?

ChanceEncounter

Professional
When you reach double digit slams you are reaching very rarified air and if you get in the teens you are first tier legend. If Nadal gets to 14 having played in the Federer era, I say yes. But I knew the hateful responses that would follow another Nadal related thread. Especially in the Tennis Warehouse I love Federer/Sampras forum.
This is great. When you don't get your way, complain about the biases.

I'm pretty sure people are saying he won't surpass Sampras because he simply doesn't have the weeks at #1 to make the claim. Put together, he was #1 in the world for a little less than 2 years. That means, he's the best overall player on tour for about 2 years so far in his career. That's not enough for GOAT status, really.

If he spends more time as #1, and actually defends a few titles away from clay, then we can say he's a GOAT candidate. Until then, he has to settle for being the best of all time on clay and simply "very good" everywhere else.
 

veroniquem

Bionic Poster
Forget about # of weeks at #1. That is just because Sampras didn't have another player as consistent as him in his era. Agassi was brilliant but anything but consistent.
Winning all 4 slams instead of just 3 of them is much more important than # of weeks at #1.
 

Set Sampras

Banned
Maybe someone more consistent as Andre would make Pete even raise his game more to continue to be #1 and be more consistent. Its also what the competition provides as well. I think one could argue it was probably harder to be year round consistent because of the conditions before then it is now.
 

Clarky21

Banned
Forget about # of weeks at #1. That is just because Sampras didn't have another player as consistent as him in his era. Agassi was brilliant but anything but consistent.
Winning all 4 slams instead of just 3 of them is much more important than # of weeks at #1.



Not really. Especially since all the surfaces play the same nowadays when it used to actually take skill to be able to master all the surfaces. Not so anymore.
 

veroniquem

Bionic Poster
Still so. Only Agassi, Fed and Nadal have done the career slam. And those are clearly remarkable champions. Let's see how many others manage it. When an average player does it, then you may have a point. In the meantime, you don't.
 

Tennis_Monk

Hall of Fame
This is great. When you don't get your way, complain about the biases.

I'm pretty sure people are saying he won't surpass Sampras because he simply doesn't have the weeks at #1 to make the claim. Put together, he was #1 in the world for a little less than 2 years. That means, he's the best overall player on tour for about 2 years so far in his career. That's not enough for GOAT status, really.

If he spends more time as #1, and actually defends a few titles away from clay, then we can say he's a GOAT candidate. Until then, he has to settle for being the best of all time on clay and simply "very good" everywhere else.

I dont know about GOAT but there are things that Nadal already did that Sampras hasnt done for example Career slam. Sampras cannot be considered for GOAT either because his clay court resume isnt that great--frankly Sampras rarely needed second week stay at Roland Garros.

Simply put Nadal already surpassed Sampras on couple items. Assuming he gets to 14 slams, he definitely is better than Sampras in my book.

I still cant believe that people think Sampras is a GOAT when he is more or less a non factor on clay slams and isnt a great threat on clay which is about 40% of season at sampras's time.
 

Tennis_Monk

Hall of Fame
Not really. Especially since all the surfaces play the same nowadays when it used to actually take skill to be able to master all the surfaces. Not so anymore.

Surfaces doesnt matter. Results do. If sampras is that great, he should have dominated on the conditions present in his era. Rest is excuses.
 

BrooklynNY

Hall of Fame
Still so. Only Agassi, Fed and Nadal have done the career slam. And those are clearly remarkable champions. Let's see how many others manage it. When an average player does it, then you may have a point. In the meantime, you don't.

Every dominant champion will win a career slam, Novak will have a French within 2 years.

Federer was just the first to be able to take advantage, than Nadal, now Nole...it's my opinion that every player who is the best of their respective generation will win the career slam, simply because tennis is the same everywhere, which is also why Andy Murray has made all 4 semis in 1 year playing virtually the same exact style of tennis he always plays....which we all know... is reacting, counterpunching, and retrieving like a dog.
 

veroniquem

Bionic Poster
We'll see. Right now there is no basis for claiming every future slam winner will win the career slam. I would actually bet money on Delpo not doing it. + Agassi was a contemporary of Sampras, so I really don't see using that as an excuse for Sampras not doing it.
 
N

NadalAgassi

Guest
Still so. Only Agassi, Fed and Nadal have done the career slam. And those are clearly remarkable champions. Let's see how many others manage it. When an average player does it, then you may have a point. In the meantime, you don't.

Well what if Djokovic wins the French Open next year then never wins another slam (unlikely hypothetical but still). He would have only 5 slams but the Career Slam. Would that diminish its meaning in that case.
 

BrooklynNY

Hall of Fame
Not saying future slam winner, I said dominant player. I agree and want to also add my bet on Delpo not winning a career slam, and some of it on Delpo not winning another slam.

And as NadalAgassi said, dominance can be as short as 1 year, in the hypothetical situation Novak wins a career slam within a 1-2 year span, and then somehow happens to not be able to win slams. I think simply put, the guy who happens to be better than everyone else at the moment will win all the slams. I think Novak is the proof of that.

We have to pull this thread up in 20 years to see if every next generation's dominant players won career slams
 
Last edited:

timnz

Legend
Career Slam

The fact is, the Career Slam today is less impressive (Still amazing though) than it was to achieve pre-2002 (2002 was the beginning of the progressive slowdowns of Wimbledon). That is why I have the utmost respect for Agassi's achievement in 1999. He won Wimbledon from the back of the court in 1992 on the fast Wimbledon grass beating Becker, McEnroe and Ivanisovic in a row. Really impressive.

It also under-scores to me how impressive Borg's achievement of winning the channel slam 3 years in a row (nearly 4 if he had managed to win that 1981 wimbledon final). In those days clay and grass really were polls apart (unlike now).

Hence, thinking that Nadal's Career Slam, as impressive as it is, makes up for his being behind Sampras' 5 Masters Cups and his Sampras' much longer time as number 1 - well it just doesn't square since the Career Slam is an easier achievement these days.
 

Tennis_Monk

Hall of Fame
So is Agassi better than Sampras too?

Sure. Agassi is a better clay couter than Sampras and Agassi has a FO to show for it. Simply put Agassi was able to play great tennis on all the surfaces and hence he has a career slam. Sampras is great player but also ran on Clay.

I am sure you knew this already.
 

Tennis_Monk

Hall of Fame
Well what if Djokovic wins the French Open next year then never wins another slam (unlikely hypothetical but still). He would have only 5 slams but the Career Slam. Would that diminish its meaning in that case.

Djoker can end his career with 5 slams with a Career slam. It doesnt diminish the meaning of Career slam one bit. Fact is Career slam is not easy to achieve and just because Fed, nad, Djo did it doesnt mean it is any easier. It means that these are great Atheletes.
 

Set Sampras

Banned
Hell I wouldnt be surprised if Murray is the next to do it within the next few years when Nadal and Fed are gone, and Djoker slows down.
 
N

NadalAgassi

Guest
Hell I wouldnt be surprised if Murray is the next to do it within the next few years when Nadal and Fed are gone, and Djoker slows down.

Yeah watch in 10 years another 6 players will have done the Career Slam, LOL! It will become almost a joke achievement under the current playing conditions. Also so much for those diminishing Laver's Grand Slam. Todays guys cant even manage the Grand Slam in an era it was easier to ever to dominate with all the surfaces playing like one. Atleast Laver played on different types of grass and clay, today every court plays like a medium to slow hard court.

Agassi has the most impressive Career Slam in history still IMO.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

spiderman123

Professional
In the minds of Nadal Fans : He already has.
In the minds of Sampras Fans: He never will.
In the minds of Federer Fans : He never will. It is Federer, Sampras, <rest of the candidates>, Nadal
In the minds of neutral Fans : They don't care and that is why they are neutral.
 

BULLZ1LLA

Banned
(Nadal is nowhere near Sampras. Sampras has won 4 more slams. So Nadal will not pass Sampras until Nadal has 14 slams, as Nadal's Career Grand Slam [which cancels out Sampras' record of weeks ranked number one, plus Nadal has 102 weeks ranked number one] and Masters Shields record pushes him ahead)
 

TMF

Talk Tennis Guru
In the minds of Nadal Fans : He already has.
True

In the minds of Sampras Fans: He never will.
true

In the minds of Federer Fans : He never will. It is Federer, Sampras, <rest of the candidates>, Nadal
Not exactly. Some Fed fans don't take any side between Nadal and Sampras.

In the minds of neutral Fans : They don't care and that is why they are neutral.
True
 

jones101

Hall of Fame
Agassi has the most impressive Career Slam in history still IMO.

I tend to agree

He won on slick grass, slower clay, rebound ace and quick decoturf,

Never actually considered this.

While the grass of 03 was quicker than 2011 grass, its still miles slower than the grass from the 90's. And FO has been playing quicker the last 2 years (last year even quicker b/c of new balls)

Federer has won slams on Decoturf (USO), Rebound Ace (AO) & Plexicushion (AO2010), which none else has ever done, but Agassi's was a greater feat.
 

BULLZ1LLA

Banned
I tend to agree

He won on slick grass, slower clay, rebound ace and quick decoturf,

Never actually considered this.

While the grass of 03 was quicker than 2011 grass, its still miles slower than the grass from the 90's. And FO has been playing quicker the last 2 years (last year even quicker b/c of new balls)

Federer has won slams on Decoturf (USO), Rebound Ace (AO) & Plexicushion (AO2010), which none else has ever done, but Agassi's was a greater feat.

(And Nadal's 2010 was the most impressive all-surface performance in a calendar year. Roland Garros on clay, Wimbledon on grass, US Open on hardcourt. More impressive than anything Laver, Federer, Agassi ever did)
 

Cup8489

G.O.A.T.
(And Nadal's 2010 was the most impressive all-surface performance in a calendar year. Roland Garros on clay, Wimbledon on grass, US Open on hardcourt. More impressive than anything Laver, Federer, Agassi ever did)

Not sure I'd say that. He didnt really face anyone in the late rounds of wimbledon 2010 to make it a truly impressive tournament. His 2008 Wimbledon win was much more impressive.. I mean cmon, Berdych? The guy was a mug in that final. And Soderling? I mean, that's impressive that he was able to come back after the previous year and win it.. but Soderling is not exactly a world beater, and looked scared like Murray does when in a major final.

No, laver had to defeat Roche several times on the way to his CYGS, not to mention other world class players. Nadal got a very lucky draw for Wimbledon 2010. I wouldn't say it was a more impressive performance.
 

Romismak

Rookie
Hard to tell, first of all this is all only IF. Right now it is all hypothetically. Right now it seems like Pete has clearly the edge - 14 slams over 10, more weeks at No.1, years ending No.1, most Wimbledons as most valuable slam, but maybe in 2-3 years it could be closer between them. Actually right now only thing Rafa has the edge is clearly career slam and also RAfa´s best season is better than Pete´s best season. Someone can argue that Rafa´s career slam is not worthy so much, because of homogenization of surfaces, but one thing must be said - Rafa won all 4 and Pete didn´t even came close to it, and i am sure he wouldn´t win RG in any era, simply his tennis wasn´t suited to clay courts and his movement was horrible on clay, despite the fact that he was great athlete and had great footwork. Maybe problem was also his motivation, he maybe didn´ thought he can win there, RG didn´t mean much for him, maybe if he was trying harder he could at least make F there- but still don´t think could won- most likely would los in F to some hot clay-courter, but career slam didn´t mean that much in 90s because since Laver nobody did it so Sampras maybe didn´t even thought about winning RG as really important thing, something like Roger- badly want to do, because it was last slam he was lacking, Pete never felt that way for sure. About Rafa - he did won all slams and we can admit that he show he can win on today´s grasss- great footwork for grass, and is arguably 2nd best grass player in last decade, won both HC slams only once but show that his A game on HC is pretty good for slam title for sure, so his career slam i think is worthed to mention that he did it on 3 surfaces, while Pete always was good only on 2 that is huge difference in term of overall achievements i think, but Pete is clearly ahead of Rafa in every other statistics, but the truth is Rafa was ,,forever,, 2nd, while Pete didn´t have nobody as good and consistent than Roger - i mean Pete never was good on clay and still was 1st all the time, imagine somebody really good on all surfaces or healthy Agassi -motivated all the time, how badly PEte´s No.1 position could be. So i think Pete is at this moment better in history and even if both will be 14-14 most likely Pete will be ahead, because i don´t believe Rafa can surpass No.1years and No.1 weeks, but we will see in future. But generally they played in different eras, different conditions, hard to compare really - just for imaginations give Nadal in 90s and Pete in today´s ATP tour, how many slams will they achieve? nobody know, because Pete won´t be playing SV so often and Rafa won´t be so succesfull with topspin, because he woulnd´be able to generate so much topspin on his shots, so basically both are products of their eras, we can say Rafa would achieve much less in 90s and Pete much less in today´s tour, because everything is slower, baseline tennis rules, but still it is only guessing.
 
Hard to tell, first of all this is all only IF.
Right now it is all hypothetically.
Right now it seems like Pete has clearly the edge - 14 slams over 10, more weeks at No.1, years ending No.1, most Wimbledons as most valuable slam, but maybe in 2-3 years it could be closer between them.
Actually right now only thing Rafa has the edge is clearly career slam and also RAfa´s best season is better than Pete´s best season.
Someone can argue that Rafa´s career slam is not worthy so much, because of homogenization of surfaces, but one thing must be said - Rafa won all 4 and Pete didn´t even came
close to it, and i am sure he wouldn´t win RG in any era, simply his tennis wasn´t suited to clay courts and his movement was horrible on clay, despite the fact that he was great
athlete and had great footwork.
Maybe problem was also his motivation, he maybe didn´ thought he can win there, RG didn´t mean much for him, maybe if he was trying harder he could at least make F there-
but still don´t think could won- most likely would los in F to some hot clay-courter, but career slam didn´t mean that much in 90s because since Laver nobody did it so Sampras
maybe didn´t even thought about winning RG as really important thing, something like Roger-
badly want to do, because it was last slam he was lacking, Pete never felt that way for sure.
About Rafa - he did won all slams and we can admit that he show he can win on today´s grasss- great footwork for grass, and is arguably 2nd best grass player in last decade,
won both HC slams only once but show that his A game on HC is pretty good for slam title for sure, so his career slam i think is worthed to mention that he did it on 3 surfaces,
while Pete always was good only on 2 that is huge difference in term of overall achievements i think,
but Pete is clearly ahead of Rafa in every other statistics, but the truth is Rafa was ,,forever,, 2nd, while Pete didn´t have nobody as good and consistent than Roger -
i mean Pete never was good on clay and still was 1st all the time, imagine somebody really good on all surfaces or healthy Agassi -motivated all the time, how badly PEte´s No.
1 position could be.
So i think Pete is at this moment better in history and even if both will be 14-14 most likely Pete will be ahead, because i don´t believe Rafa can surpass No.
1years and No.
1 weeks, but we will see in future.
But generally they played in different eras, different conditions, hard to compare really - just for imaginations give Nadal in 90s and Pete in today´s ATP tour,
how many slams will they achieve? nobody know, because Pete won´t be playing SV so often and Rafa won´t be so succesfull with topspin,
because he woulnd´be able to generate so much topspin on his shots, so basically both are products of their eras, we can say Rafa would achieve much less in 90s and
Pete much less in today´s tour, because everything is slower, baseline tennis rules, but still it is only guessing.

Macros. my good deed for the day :). Unfortunately, now it will hurt your mind. :)
 

zagor

Bionic Poster
Hard to tell, first of all this is all only IF. Right now it is all hypothetically. Right now it seems like Pete has clearly the edge - 14 slams over 10, more weeks at No.1, years ending No.1, most Wimbledons as most valuable slam, but maybe in 2-3 years it could be closer between them.


Actually right now only thing Rafa has the edge is clearly career slam and also RAfa´s best season is better than Pete´s best season. Someone can argue that Rafa´s career slam is not worthy so much, because of homogenization of surfaces, but one thing must be said - Rafa won all 4 and Pete didn´t even came close to it, and i am sure he wouldn´t win RG in any era, simply his tennis wasn´t suited to clay courts and his movement was horrible on clay, despite the fact that he was great athlete and had great footwork.


Maybe problem was also his motivation, he maybe didn´ thought he can win there, RG didn´t mean much for him, maybe if he was trying harder he could at least make F there- but still don´t think could won- most likely would los in F to some hot clay-courter, but career slam didn´t mean that much in 90s because since Laver nobody did it so Sampras maybe didn´t even thought about winning RG as really important thing, something like Roger- badly want to do, because it was last slam he was lacking, Pete never felt that way for sure.


About Rafa - he did won all slams and we can admit that he show he can win on today´s grasss- great footwork for grass, and is arguably 2nd best grass player in last decade, won both HC slams only once but show that his A game on HC is pretty good for slam title for sure, so his career slam i think is worthed to mention that he did it on 3 surfaces, while Pete always was good only on 2 that is huge difference in term of overall achievements i think, but Pete is clearly ahead of Rafa in every other statistics, but the truth is Rafa was ,,forever,, 2nd, while Pete didn´t have nobody as good and consistent than Roger - i mean Pete never was good on clay and still was 1st all the time, imagine somebody really good on all surfaces or healthy Agassi -motivated all the time, how badly PEte´s No.1 position could be.


So i think Pete is at this moment better in history and even if both will be 14-14 most likely Pete will be ahead, because i don´t believe Rafa can surpass No.1years and No.1 weeks, but we will see in future. But generally they played in different eras, different conditions, hard to compare really - just for imaginations give Nadal in 90s and Pete in today´s ATP tour, how many slams will they achieve? nobody know, because Pete won´t be playing SV so often and Rafa won´t be so succesfull with topspin, because he woulnd´be able to generate so much topspin on his shots, so basically both are products of their eras, we can say Rafa would achieve much less in 90s and Pete much less in today´s tour, because everything is slower, baseline tennis rules, but still it is only guessing.

There, less painful on the eyes.

And yes Sampras wanted to win FO dearly, his idol was Laver so I'm sure he wanted to prove he can be the best on all surfaces. This "Pete didn't care" is a cop out excuse from his fans, he just wasn't good enough on that surface, he more than made up for it on other surfaces so it's still one heck of a career.
 

Romismak

Rookie
There, less painful on the eyes.

And yes Sampras wanted to win FO dearly, his idol was Laver so I'm sure he wanted to prove he can be the best on all surfaces. This "Pete didn't care" is a cop out excuse from his fans, he just wasn't good enough on that surface, he more than made up for it on other surfaces so it's still one heck of a career.

For sure he wanted to win it, but i think it is normal thing for people that if something is wrong-you are not succesfull in something your believing is not so big - i think he maybe thouhght he is not good enought to be RG champion, am not making excuses i just thought so, i wrote there he would loose to any hot clay-courter in F - if he make it.
It is just generally that his results at RG were horrible, besides that SF a think 2x QF he was loosing pretty early and always was seeded high and even at slow surface he still had his super serve, great touch, net game, FH, and still wasn´t able to beat average players there - so i do believe his mental confidence at RG wasn´t high enough- if it was i do believe he could have been more succesfull there- but doubt he would win, maybe make 1F with lucky draw and quicker conditions like 96 year.
 
Top