If/when Federer is overtaken in slams, will he still be the GOAT?
- Thread starter mxmx
- Start date
Make a poll.
AnOctorokForDinner
Talk Tennis Guru
YEC titles should be considered as well. Assuming the basics like 4 slems per season in BO5 stay in place, if someone overtakes the total Slam+YEC count, sure they likely get the mantle regardless of other comparisons.
Sport
G.O.A.T.
The Grand Slam count is the most relevant all-time great criterion. Other criteria are just tie-breakers in case two players are tied in Grand Slams.
Grand Slams are more relevant than ATP finals. No amount of ATP finals equal a Grand Slam. Also, the Olympic Gold in singles is equally relevant as the ATP finals and you are failling to mention it.
In sum, if a player overtakes Federer's GS count he has surpassed him. Grand Slams are the most relevant trophies. The GOAT is supposed the best, so he can't not be the best in the most important tournament.
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mxmx
Hall of Fame
Done
mxmx
Hall of Fame
Even if it's Djoko or Nadal? I guess McEnroe and Willander and the whole friggin globe aside from Sampras fans may swallow their words sooner than expected.
Premature to have called him the greatest that will ever be?
AnOctorokForDinner
Talk Tennis Guru
You can't predict the future. Federer is obviously not perfect, so improvements may be achieved.
Nadal isn't realistically overtaking on account of 6 YEC to 0, though. Djovak is the one with a chance if he keeps himself upright and the present mugfest continues.
Im(moral) Winner
G.O.A.T.
Can you repeat the question?
Sport
G.O.A.T.
Lol at people voting "It depends".
Every time a Nadal or Djokovic fan claims their favorite player to be the GOAT, Federer fans run to remember the number 20, the Grand Slam count.
But if Federer is surpassed, then the Grand Slam count is no longer relevant. What a double standard. They change the GOAT criteria just to suit Federer.
Also, no one is gonna consider Federer as the GOAT if Nadal and/or Djokovic surpass him. How can Federer be the GOAT with less Grand Slams than Nadal/Djokovic and a losing H2H against them? The age excuse is ridiculous, when prime Federer has lost at age 26 at Wimbledon 2008 or age 27 at the Australian Open 2009. Djokovic also leads Federer 4-2 in Grand Slams between 2010 and 2012, and Federer was in good form those years.
Every time a Nadal or Djokovic fan claims their favorite player to be the GOAT, Federer fans run to remember the number 20, the Grand Slam count.
But if Federer is surpassed, then the Grand Slam count is no longer relevant. What a double standard. They change the GOAT criteria just to suit Federer.
Also, no one is gonna consider Federer as the GOAT if Nadal and/or Djokovic surpass him. How can Federer be the GOAT with less Grand Slams than Nadal/Djokovic and a losing H2H against them? The age excuse is ridiculous, when prime Federer has lost at age 26 at Wimbledon 2008 or age 27 at the Australian Open 2009. Djokovic also leads Federer 4-2 in Grand Slams between 2010 and 2012, and Federer was in good form those years.
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MajesticTennisManiac
Rookie
If its by Djokovic,yes
If by Nadal, No
If by Nadal, No
RaulRamirez
Legend
I didn't vote here, as it seems as if I just replied elsewhere that we, essentially, have 3 GOATs, and they are still, by far, the biggest names in tennis.
Let's see where they all are when all have retired. I expect their overall numbers to all approximate one another's in most categories. My quick answer, though, if deciding the cream of the cream would be "no"- certainly not a singular GOAT.
Let's see where they all are when all have retired. I expect their overall numbers to all approximate one another's in most categories. My quick answer, though, if deciding the cream of the cream would be "no"- certainly not a singular GOAT.
RaulRamirez
Legend
What is your rationale for that distinction?
MajesticTennisManiac
Rookie
Djokovic has less gaps in his resume
RaulRamirez
Legend
The way the OP was phrased, I read your answer the other way around. Just clarifying, not debating.
RaulRamirez
Legend
Okay. The way the OP was phrased, I read it the opposite way. Just clarifying, not debating.
NatF
Bionic Poster
Yeah kinda how I see it, no disrespect to Nadal but I'm not sure I'll ever view him as a better all round player than Federer. Djokovic with the balance in his resume if he goes past 20 then considering everything else he'll have probably won he'll be the greatest of the era probably.
Steve0904
Talk Tennis Guru
What it will mean is that there will be a legitimate argument from a stats perspective to have someone else as greater than Federer in this era. Right now there isn't a serious numbers debate because Federer still leads in almost all of the most important categories, and please note that none of these most important categories include the H2H's or other bogus arguments.
That will be the biggest change. Whether each individual person, if they were asked, still wants to consider Federer the greatest is up to them and them only.
That will be the biggest change. Whether each individual person, if they were asked, still wants to consider Federer the greatest is up to them and them only.
tennis_pro
Bionic Poster
If Nadal does it by winning 4 more French Opens and nothing else then yes, otherwise debatable.
Shaolin
G.O.A.T.
Wrong.
Nadal could pile on several more RG titles to pass 20 which would just make his resume more lopsided and he would still have that glaring zero WTF titles.
No matter what Nadal fans think you cant be the overall goat if you cant win even an occasional title indoors.
ChaelAZ
G.O.A.T.
Straight forward GOAT has always been about GS titles, so there is no moral vistory, equation to level things with H2H or weighted titles, surface talk, or such. So if someone gets more GS titles, they are the GOAT. But then, TTW is all about trying to equalize, level and weight things, so for the fandom of Fed, there will never be another.
I roughly agree with it, except that the Olympic Gold equals the Atp finals. Why would it?
Shaolin
G.O.A.T.
You talk like this is some kind of sacred, disprovable fact lol. The actuality is no one really cared about who had the most slams until Sampras set out to break the record. Before then top players routinely skipped the AO and amassing the most slams wasn't the big priority.
Being overall goat means being the overall best player. Do you honestly think if Nadal piled on 4 or 5 more RGs without ever winning a single WTF he should be considered overall goat? Asking honestly.
I agree with your point that Federer is not the GOAT.
Shaolin
G.O.A.T.
No it just wouldn't do much to make him the overall goat which is about (shockingly) being the OVERALL best player, not just best clay player of the universe.
Shaolin
G.O.A.T.
I haven't mentioned Fed in any way in this debate.
Steve0904
Talk Tennis Guru
I think some would consider Nadal the greatest in that scenario yes, but how many converts would there be? I suspect not as many as most Nadal fans would like. Or in other words, I'll say it like this. The people that would consider Nadal the greatest in this scenario are many of the same people that consider Nadal the greatest as of today. Let me be clear, I have no problem with any viewpoint on these GOAT debates anymore. I've honestly come to the conclusion over time that all 3 guys are amazing and arguing over something so silly is pointless, especially when there's huge bias involved.
All that said, I think you make a good point, especially in Nadal's case. I don't think Nadal has been good enough when compared to Federer or Djokovic on the balance of surfaces to be considered the greatest even if he wins more slams (especially if they are RG). His inability to win at the WTF's compared to those two deserves to be pointed out in particular because 0 vs 5 and 6 looks really bad. And he trails both players at all the other slams with the exception of Djokovic at the USO where they are tied.
This is why it actually does depend on who passes Federer if it happens and why it isn't a "sacred disprovable fact." Because there are still relative holes in Nadal's resume comparatively even if he ends up with the most slams. Djokovic OTOH has a much more solid case.
frodobaggins
Rookie
I think Djokovic would likely be considered superior with the same number of slams, let alone more. Most of his other stats would be superior by that point. He would clearly be ahead in all #1 ranking related stats, well ahead in Masters, probably atleast tied in WTF titles. Djokovic would need only the same number, maybe even 1 less in some scenarios.
Nadal is a tougher call. It depends how much people start focusing on the head to head, and how much people care about the clay imbalance.
Nadal is a tougher call. It depends how much people start focusing on the head to head, and how much people care about the clay imbalance.
Bukmeikara
Legend
Federer is the goat not because of titles, match wins and numbers. The way he behave himself, both in and outside the court. The way he wins his matches. The never ending joy of his to play the game and compete. Federer just has the charisma to be the greatest player.
Djokovic and Nadal as good as they are, are beyond the point at which they could be considered better than Roger. No amount of titles could change that.
Perfect example is the kid at Us Open 17 who asked Roger " why are you the goat " . Thr way he handled that is just pure class
Djokovic and Nadal as good as they are, are beyond the point at which they could be considered better than Roger. No amount of titles could change that.
Perfect example is the kid at Us Open 17 who asked Roger " why are you the goat " . Thr way he handled that is just pure class
astronautzor
Rookie
Djokovic is the most charismatic guy, most complete player.
Forehand 10/10
Backhand 11/10
Movement 10/10
Speed 9/10
Flexibility 11/10
Defense 11/10
Offense 10/10
Mentality 11/10
Fitness 10/10
Serve 9/10
Return 11/10
And that little extra that he basically invented sliding whilst hitting winners on any court out there..
What did Federer invent? a good looking forehand (Subjective)
Get a grip guys.
Besides one can argue that the best tennis ever played is Nadal in RG.
Forehand 10/10
Backhand 11/10
Movement 10/10
Speed 9/10
Flexibility 11/10
Defense 11/10
Offense 10/10
Mentality 11/10
Fitness 10/10
Serve 9/10
Return 11/10
And that little extra that he basically invented sliding whilst hitting winners on any court out there..
What did Federer invent? a good looking forehand (Subjective)
Get a grip guys.
Besides one can argue that the best tennis ever played is Nadal in RG.
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I voted that it depends. if nole gets 20 then he will be GOAT without a doubt. because he needs 5+ slams. so if he gets them he will surely have more YE#1 and weeks on top than federer. and, he will probably have 5-6 or more WTF and quite a few more masters. then he has 4 slams in a row, points record (16,950), the best season (2015) and completed all big (1000+) tournaments as well as positive h2h with all big4. so in case he gets 20 he will own all the big records that matter. nadal, I'm not so sure that he will.
Bukmeikara
Legend
Cherry picking, no? And in this particular case, what is the problem? That he was more forward, direct and honest with his answer?
Shaolin
G.O.A.T.
I agree Nole would certainly be goat if he equaled or broke 20.
Problem is that he was not in position to judge whether retiring was justified or not as he lacked information about player's condition and he is not a physician. Problem is in kicking someone while he is down. Problem is that, due to his status in the game at that time, his comments were invitation to open season on Djokovic. Problem is that he did not think that this player who is defeated and humiliated would win XX slams and become a major tennis/sport personality on and of the court.
frodobaggins
Rookie
By that logic Borg would be the ultimate GOAT. The most popular player ever in his prime, even more than Federer, he used to wear disguises wherever he went in any country so he wouldnt be mobbed. Definitely the most charismatic and sexy top player ever. And the ultimate in style, perfection, and detail; and an intriguing engima given his retirement and sketchy post tennis career.
Bukmeikara
Legend
They are asking him a question and he is answering it straight forward. People these days are really sensitive and feel judged by everything. He didnt kicked him when he is down, YOUR comprehension makes it like that. At that time Djokovic had like 10 retirements for 4 seasons - since then he had 5 for the next 10 years. I think that Federer was on something, dont you?
People really like to victimise themselfs for whatever reason. Djokovic made some mistakes due being younger and more open with his emotions, after that incident he became a better proffesional.
Bukmeikara
Legend
Agree to dissagree. At the time when Federer came into the picture tennis has evolved 20 years since Borg and that was before the social media era. Federer and Nadal pretty much on themselfs put tennis on the bigger map. For example: 1st round exit at Wimbledon 2003 - 14 400 euro/ 1st round exit at Wimbledon 2018 - 39 000
There is hardly an argument for Borg being more popular than Federer and that is not a punch against Bjorn. Life just works that way
Djokovic had serious yet to be diagnosed condition and Federer was not competent to discuss any health issues. Normal answer to that question would be "I am sorry that Djokovic had to retire, I hope that it is nothing serious and I wish him speedy recovery". Worst possible but still relatively decent answer is to say "I would not like to comment that". His answer was out of order and unusual.
Bukmeikara
Legend
What makes "normal" normal exactly?! Because the way you put it, instead of Federer being honest and open with his opinion .. he had to be false and hypocrite!! To me this seems crazy and wild!!! Sadly modern press and interviews ended up just for your liking, safe and neutral.
frodobaggins
Rookie
I just dont think most popular and stylish player ever is the way to determine GOAT. An even better example would be on the womens side that player is clearly Chris Evert, the most popular female player (atleast of the GOATs, maybe someone like Goolagong or Kournikova is more popular), and definitely the most stylish and elegant both in playing style and manner of the top 5 or 6 all time. Yet despite that AND having the credentials to be potentially argued as GOAT ignoring all that, few consider her as the female GOAT.
I see your point but I think social media is actually the exact reason Borg might be more popular than Federer. Since social media has created a world there are so many things to focus on, including trivial and stupid things that it is harder to narrow focus to a few primary things you access such as tennis (one of the few sports that was getting big TV coverage in the late 70s).
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