Inaccurate Doubles UTR for adult league players
- Thread starter MaxTennis
- Start date
travlerajm
Talk Tennis Guru
You mean you just realized UTR has flawed algorithms?
travlerajm
Talk Tennis Guru
You mean you just realized UTR has flawed algorithms?
It probably just means the average age of your doubles opponents is older. Welcome to UTR drift.
Moveforwardalways
Hall of Fame
UTR is a pretty poor rating system. Almost no one is registered, so UTR is underpowered to draw any meaningful statistical data. It was good in theory, but it just doesn’t work practically. I would predict the whole UTR thing will be dead in a couple more years.
S&V-not_dead_yet
Talk Tennis Guru
That's a ridiculous spread. I thought mine was bad [went from roughly equal to 100 points difference in 6 months with no logic as to why singles went up and doubles went down].
Quick: enter a UTR doubles tournament before the spread vanishes!
5sets
Hall of Fame
Hahaha, a 4.06 is enough to be another player, a little midget sidekick player on your side of the court in “singles”.
Yes, definitely. My dubys rating is 2.5 lower than my singles and I’m a better dubs player anyways. I guess it’s how UTR skews all the 4 players on the courts rating together along with the score and spits out horsecrap.
S&V-not_dead_yet
Talk Tennis Guru
One doesn't have to register, though; they collect the same data that USTA does. All of my matches are in there. Also, tournaments are there.
What I like is that it's possible to theoretically compare 2 people from different groups where previous comparison was impossible [ie adults and juniors; Men and Women; etc]. Are there imperfections? Of course. But it's a start in the right direction, IMO.
It also gets updated in near-real time, unlike NTRP [not counting the 3rd party sites like TR or TLS]. Maybe this makes UTR like the Laver Cup vs the traditional Davis Cup: which one are players and fans more jazzed about?
OnTheLine
Hall of Fame
Played a club fundraising tournament a month ago, both adults and juniors aged 16+. According to UTR I am a 3. Played a 17 year old with a verified UTR of 7. (this was not a UTR tournament, I looked it up afterwards) I won 6-2; 6-3. Yeah, she hit hard, but had no smarts whatsoever and could only do one thing: bash from the baseline. I can guess from the crying afterwards to her parents that she was trying ... nothing in her manner of play indicated that she wasn't trying. Her record is pretty okay at at junior level 4s and 5s and with her HS team.
I went on to get beaten by a 4.0 40 year old woman with a UTR of 4 but not humiliating. I think the 4.0 would have beaten the youngster 0s and 1s unless she stayed on the baseline.
So ... yes, I think UTR greatly over-values the youngsters and greatly under-values the adults.
I went on to get beaten by a 4.0 40 year old woman with a UTR of 4 but not humiliating. I think the 4.0 would have beaten the youngster 0s and 1s unless she stayed on the baseline.
So ... yes, I think UTR greatly over-values the youngsters and greatly under-values the adults.
S&V-not_dead_yet
Talk Tennis Guru
It could have been that you were a very bad matchup for her also; looking at her record, how has she done against peers with similar UTRs?
The few times I've played Juniors, their UTRs were fairly accurate in predicting the outcome [ie I beat those 1 below me, have close matches with those equal to me, and lose to those 1 above me]. If I as a UTR 8 played a UTR 12, I guarantee you I'm not going to be winning 2&3 or even losing 2&3; I'd be lucky to get a game.
OnTheLine
Hall of Fame
I was likely a very bad match up for her LOL
I am 50 years old, in menopause and have nothing to lose and don't care if I "look good" out there ... only care if I can find a way to win.
Decided before the match that I was going to be aggressive, S&V whenever possible and throw her a ton of slice .... worked much more easily than I could ever have imagined.
S&V-not_dead_yet
Talk Tennis Guru
Well there you have it: she probably has never played someone in menopause. Bad matchup. That and the S&V and slice did it.
Eh, a matchup should not be accounting a UTR difference of 4, though.
As you said, if you're playing someone with a UTR 1 below, you usually win. A UTR one above, you usually lose. A UTR of 4 above yours you'd get crushed - and there's no amount of "matchup" that should be able to make up a difference of 4 UTR points. That just means the rating system is flat out wrong for someone, if a UTR 3 beats a UTR 7.
As you said, if you're playing someone with a UTR 1 below, you usually win. A UTR one above, you usually lose. A UTR of 4 above yours you'd get crushed - and there's no amount of "matchup" that should be able to make up a difference of 4 UTR points. That just means the rating system is flat out wrong for someone, if a UTR 3 beats a UTR 7.
travlerajm
Talk Tennis Guru
Here’s another data point for you.
I played two usta doubles matches this year, about 7 months ago. Soon after playing the matches, TR and TLS spit out dynamic match ratings for me at the border between 4.5 and 5.0. And UTR spit out a doubles rating of 9. Everything still in agreement...
About 2 months later I checked UTR and my rating had been lowered to 8. Then I checked about a month ago, and my rating had been lowered again, but for the first time it had decimal point accuracy! It had determined that I was 7.15.
Then I checked again today, and I am now 5.42. Hmm. Penalized from a 9 to a 5 in a few months due to inactivity. Shame on me!
TR and TLS still both have me as a low 5.0 or high 4.5 for the doubles (both average of 4.48). Stable.
Clearly this flaw in the UTR algorithm that causes ratings to implode is much more serious than some care to admit. At the least, it’s a major bug in the code. This is supposed to be the core of their business model, so it is not a good look.
Seems like Max’s doubles rating suffered the same time of errant implosion. It happened to my singles rating too before it finally went to ‘UR.’
I played two usta doubles matches this year, about 7 months ago. Soon after playing the matches, TR and TLS spit out dynamic match ratings for me at the border between 4.5 and 5.0. And UTR spit out a doubles rating of 9. Everything still in agreement...
About 2 months later I checked UTR and my rating had been lowered to 8. Then I checked about a month ago, and my rating had been lowered again, but for the first time it had decimal point accuracy! It had determined that I was 7.15.
Then I checked again today, and I am now 5.42. Hmm. Penalized from a 9 to a 5 in a few months due to inactivity. Shame on me!
TR and TLS still both have me as a low 5.0 or high 4.5 for the doubles (both average of 4.48). Stable.
Clearly this flaw in the UTR algorithm that causes ratings to implode is much more serious than some care to admit. At the least, it’s a major bug in the code. This is supposed to be the core of their business model, so it is not a good look.
Seems like Max’s doubles rating suffered the same time of errant implosion. It happened to my singles rating too before it finally went to ‘UR.’
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5sets
Hall of Fame
I actually like the fact that UTR levels drop due to inactivity. It’s kind of funny that USTA ratings are valid for 3 years. It’s made for some interesting internet meetups. Some fat, out of shape middle aged man who used to be halfway decent holding onto a 4.5 USTA rating showing up to play me. Definitely a mid 4.0 by now, and that’s being nice. Good form and technique but hit the ball three or four feet away from him and forget it.
S&V-not_dead_yet
Talk Tennis Guru
On the opposite side of the argument, people could then sandbag by not playing any official matches, get their UTR down by a few points, and then enter a tournament.
That's the way things used to be in the US Chess Federation rating system. At some point, they changed it so your rating never goes down due to inactivity. A lot of times there is $ involved, even in small tournaments so there was a stronger motivation to sandbag.
Unfortunately, this means when I play a tournament, I'm going to get my *** kicked nine ways to Sunday because my current strength is way below where it was when I stopped.
MaxTennis
Professional
It seems like UTR doubles caps off league players around 8 at the max.
My singles UTR is higher because I play 5.0+ leagues and Open tourneys, whereas I primarily play only league doubles and when I do play Open doubles tourneys, I tend to get crushed in the 1st round.
My singles UTR is now 10.49 and doubles UTR is 6.37, so 4.12 point difference...
My singles UTR is higher because I play 5.0+ leagues and Open tourneys, whereas I primarily play only league doubles and when I do play Open doubles tourneys, I tend to get crushed in the 1st round.
My singles UTR is now 10.49 and doubles UTR is 6.37, so 4.12 point difference...
A player I played 9.5 with last week who is according to UTR a 7.something is a strong 5.0 player and is currently playing in the finals for 10.0 Nationals on the Norcal team. I'd say that is a pretty inaccurate assessment of his doubles level.
MaxTennis
Professional
Yes, I know Jeff and have lost to him. He is a good player and definitely should not be a 7 in doubles.
The highest doubles players in NorCal I’ve seen are probably Cohen, Roberson, and Sablan, but they do well at all the money Opens so maybe that’s why.
Cohen and Sablan just won 35 and Over Clay court nationals I gather
the_faceless_player
Professional
Yeah I gave up on paying any attention to my UTR since I pretty much play only doubles. Made at least semis of every 4.5 tournament this year, multiple wins over sectionals and nationals qualifying players, multiple wins at 5.0 and my UTR has done nothing but implode every month. I don't know what it's like in other areas, but in my town people's obsession with UTR and TennisRecord instead of going out, competing and working to improve has become laughable.
S&V-not_dead_yet
Talk Tennis Guru
I believe there is a "LeeD Exception Clause" that was written just for this scenario.
How it going 1hbh.
A month ago, using a college sized football that seemed overinflated, I threw, without moving my backfoot, from baseline to around head high on the back wall, same court I couldn't reach the painted line 2 years ago.
But now, I can almost jog.
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