Increasing Serve Speed

[Hulger]

Could somebody with fast serve here provide any useful tips for increasing serve speed?
I’m 181 cm so just under 6 ft and I can generate 160-170 km/h flat serve without too much effort and about 180 km/h (112 mph) max.
Lately my fitness level and overall game have improved a lot but it’s not the case with the serve. I think I already have pretty clean racquet movement and some back bending and lower body and core involvement.
I’m not yet ready to give up by saying that I have reached my full potential.
There must be something in the technique to increase the speed.

My main questions are:
- Do you think you should keep the body facing sideways as long as possible to get more momentum from the late body twist release?
- Or do you get more speed just by concentrating on jumping up more explosively when starting the swing?
- How much the pronation contributes? I have the feeling that some power is lost because my pronation doesn’t get enough momentum. Do you get sore forearm from serving hard?

 

[Dragy]

Do you have video of your serve? We can hardly help you with anything but general ideas based on text you wrote

 

[eah123]

The things I do to increase serve speed:
1) keep a very relaxed arm and wrist. A fast serve motion should feel effortless
2) delay the takeback behind the toss. This forces your brain to say “catch up!” And then your body does a speed up naturally
3) tell your body to finish with a high elbow position. This forces you to do pronation/internal shoulder rotation even with a relaxed arm
4) Always toss the ball into the court in front of the baseline. That forces you to transfer your body momentum into the ball (kinetic chain etc)

 

[Hulger]

The things I do to increase serve speed:
1) keep a very relaxed arm and wrist. A fast serve motion should feel effortless
2) delay the takeback behind the toss. This forces your brain to say “catch up!” And then your body does a speed up naturally
3) tell your body to finish with a high elbow position. This forces you to do pronation/internal shoulder rotation even with a relaxed arm
4) Always toss the ball into the court in front of the baseline. That forces you to transfer your body momentum into the ball (kinetic chain etc)

Excellent tips, i can tell that you feel the kinetic chain well. Thank you!

 

[Hulger]

Do you have video of your serve? We can hardly help you with anything but general ideas based on text you wrote

General ideas and subjective visualizations are fine!

 

[Digital Atheist]

General ideas and subjective visualizations are fine!

If you are capable of cracking 180 - which is way way higher than average for an amateur under 6' - assuming you can get it in at that speed, then it is going to require some knowledge of your technique to be able to offer any practical or meaningful advice. And honestly, if your serve is that quick, then it's not like you have anything to be ashamed of, since, relatively speaking you have a bomb. Just a quick video taken from the rear with a phone is all that's required, and that would greatly help us out while giving you the best chance of receiving any actual relevant feedback. Everything else is guesswork, and on a 180km serve, that's not gonna cut it. If we are able to see it, then you will likely get some valuable insights. Do yourself a favour and help us out so we can help you. Also, it's not like we get to see that many great serves around here so you'd be doing us an honour.

Also, if you haven't ever videod yourself, then you need to. That's an absolute priority so you can analyse your own serve and know what's really going on. Have you at least done that?

 

[WildVolley]

My suggestion is to take quality slow motion video of some serve practice sessions. In the past, I've hit some big serves (over 120mph) but I could not achieve any consistency in terms of pace.

Because the racquet is moving so dynamically in a hard hit serve, small changes in the timing of the motion and ball position can make a large difference. As rec players, some of us can occasionally adopt form that is close to what the pros do on most serves. But usually, we don't have any good idea of what happened during those great serves. Using slow motion video can help us identify what we do on our better serves as compared to the standard sub-optimal serves.

 

[Morch Us]

Those are impressive speeds. I would suggest going to a court without any nets (or to any concrete surface with fence on one side to stop the ball, but mark an approximate court geometry, like baseline and serviceline), and try serving maximum speed. The idea is to figure out whether the "net" acts as a hinderance to your technique to provide maxium flatness on the ball (the hindrance does come from mental blockade as well as auto spin). If there is a big difference between your max speed with net, then you can work on improving the "flatness" of the serve without making any dramatic changes in technique to provide for the difference.

By the way this is only for very high level tennis athlets, who already have a developed mechanics. From your serve speeds I assume you are one.

I’m 181 cm so just under 6 ft and I can generate 160-170 km/h flat serve without too much effort and about 180 km/h (112 mph) max.

 

[Pumpkin]

My recommendation is to try to hit the ball harder.

 

[pencilcheck]

Could somebody with fast serve here provide any useful tips for increasing serve speed?
I’m 181 cm so just under 6 ft and I can generate 160-170 km/h flat serve without too much effort and about 180 km/h (112 mph) max.
Lately my fitness level and overall game have improved a lot but it’s not the case with the serve. I think I already have pretty clean racquet movement and some back bending and lower body and core involvement.
I’m not yet ready to give up by saying that I have reached my full potential.
There must be something in the technique to increase the speed.

My main questions are:
- Do you think you should keep the body facing sideways as long as possible to get more momentum from the late body twist release?
- Or do you get more speed just by concentrating on jumping up more explosively when starting the swing?
- How much the pronation contributes? I have the feeling that some power is lost because my pronation doesn’t get enough momentum. Do you get sore forearm from serving hard?

Just like the poster above said, just hit harder.

I wouldn't worry about fast serve, because if you have the fundamentals serving fast is easy. The real problem is consistency and quality. If you can't hit slow but with quality you can't hit fast with quality.

 

[snoflewis]

people are saying hit harder, but i think that's unreasonable. just get taller.

 

[Dragy]

I think we forget our roots.
True path is to get more powerful racquet

 

[J011yroger]

Do you have video of your serve? We can hardly help you with anything but general ideas based on text you wrote

Would I be out of line to say we can hardly help even if he posts video?

J

 

[Dragy]

Would I be out of line to say we can hardly help even if he posts video?

J

No new pink pony for you then

 

[Pumpkin]

A lot of the power comes from the snap or pronation at contact.

What I did was go to the park with a bag of balls and stand there with my arm straight up and the racquet on edge and toss balls and just practice that snapping action. You can start to use your body a bit to lean in and add to the power. You will see the balls going further and further as you get better at it. This exercise greatly increased my service power.

I recommend the park over a tennis court because on court you may be concerned about getting the ball in. You only want to focus on power and getting a really violent snap going.

 

[Funbun]

A lot of the power comes from the snap or pronation at contact.

What I did was go to the park with a bag of balls and stand there with my arm straight up and the racquet on edge and toss balls and just practice that snapping action. You can start to use your body a bit to lean in and add to the power. You will see the balls going further and further as you get better at it. This exercise greatly increased my service power.

I recommend the park over a tennis court because on court you may be concerned about getting the ball in. You only want to focus on power and getting a really violent snap going.

This is a great drill and you can definitely do this on the tennis court; stand inside the service box and try to aim as short as possible inside the opposite service box, perhaps at a cone set up halfway up the service box line next to the doubles lane.
Basically self-feeding, powerful overheads.

This really helps with getting the hand/shoulder leading the internal shoulder rotation (what a lot of ppl call the snap), and ensuring the chest doesn't open up and lead prematurely.

 

[eah123]

Really, it's very simple.

 

[Hulger]

Really, it's very simple.

Great reminder to focus on sideway whipping motion of racquet (THIS!!) and on loosing wrist and using the full arch of the swing.

 

[puppybutts]

I find at the non-pro level that most people neglect flexibility as part of their fitness routine. This means on the windup ("back scratch"), amateurs are not dipping their racquet as low as it can go for a bigger motion. A lot of people actually have more of a short range windshield wiper swipe that is all happening above their shoulder blades. With pros though you will see they have the ability to really relax (not force) their racquet to dropping by their hip and starting their range of motion from there.

 

[Chas Tennis]

..................................................................
My main questions are:
- Do you think you should keep the body facing sideways as long as possible to get more momentum from the late body twist release?

No. You should perform a high level serving technique for a high performance serve. High speed videos show you exactly the timing that the ATP players use. Be aware of the safety advice by Todd Ellenbecker on limiting the upper arm angle to reduce the risk of shoulder impingement.

There is little information available on other serving techniques other than the high level serving technique.

- Or do you get more speed just by concentrating on jumping up more explosively when starting the swing?

High speed videos show the exact timing and the effect of leg thrust on Thoracic Extension and the racket drop - all before "starting the swing."

Google: Thoracic Extension of the Spine and the Tennis Serve

See leg thrust and its timing to TE.

- How much the pronation contributes? I have the feeling that some power is lost because my pronation doesn’t get enough momentum. Do you get sore forearm from serving hard?

Tennis researcher B. Elliott has measured how much forearm pronation contributes on the serve. about 5% of racket head speed at impact. Elliott's use of "pronation" would be the defined joint motion as you can Google. It is not tennis incorrect usage of the word pronation. The defined joint motion, Internal Shoulder Rotation (ISR) used for the high level serve provides about 50% of racket head speed at impact. See original publications if you want to understand. If you try to communicate using undefined terms how can that work?

Usually you do not get forearm injuries. Shoulder injuries occur. Search shoulder safety include Todd Ellenbecker. There are many posts and threads and I posted on many of those.

See references in this publication for basic research on the serve. Marshall and Elliott 2000 is the most informative to locate.

Biomechanics and tennis

Success in tennis requires a mix of player talent, good coaching, appropriate equipment, and an understanding of those aspects of sport science pertinent to the game. This paper outlines the role that biomechanics plays in player development from sport ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Pictures of Opelka's serve show his arm looks higher than Ellenbecker's recommendation in the video "Rotator Cuff Injury". Or in pictures of most ATP servers. Opelka should review his technique regarding Ellenbecker's warning on the upper arm angle.

 

[J011yroger]

No. You should perform a high level serving technique for a high performance serve. High speed videos show you exactly the timing that the ATP players use. Be aware of the safety advice by Todd Ellenbecker on limiting the upper arm angle to reduce the risk of shoulder impingement.

There is no information available on other serving techniques other than the high level serving technique.



High speed videos show the exact timing and the effect of leg thrust on Thoracic Extension and the racket drop all before "starting the swing."

Google: Thoracic Extension of the Spine and the Tennis Serve
See leg thrust and its timing to TE.



Tennis researcher B. Elliott has measured how much forearm pronation contributes on the serve. about 5% of racket head speed at impact. Elliott's use of "pronation" would be the defined joint motion as you can Google. It is not tennis incorrect usage of the word pronation. The defined joint motion, Internal Shoulder Rotation (ISR) used for the high level serve provides about 50% of racket head speed at impact. See original publications if you want to understand. If you try to communicate using undefined terms how can that work?

Usually you do not get forearm injuries. Shoulder injuries occur. Search shoulder safety include Todd Ellenbecker. There are many posts and threads and I posted on many of those.

See references in this publication for basic research on the serve. Marshall and Elliott 2000 is the most informative to locate.

Biomechanics and tennis

Success in tennis requires a mix of player talent, good coaching, appropriate equipment, and an understanding of those aspects of sport science pertinent to the game. This paper outlines the role that biomechanics plays in player development from sport ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Pictures of Opelka's serve show his arm might be higher(?) than Ellenbecker's recommendation in the video "Rotator Cuff Injury". Or in pictures of most ATP servers. Opelka should review his technique regarding Ellenbecker's warning on the upper arm angle.

Pretty sure he knows how to watch other people serve on the internet. He is asking how to do it himself.

J

 

[Chas Tennis]

Pretty sure he knows how to watch other people serve on the internet. He is asking how to do it himself.

J

The OP's question was
- Do you think you should keep the body facing sideways as long as possible to get more momentum from the late body twist release?

This question indicates that he is not looking at ATP or other model server videos for timing information.

There is a persistent myth that you should keep the body 'sideways' for some strokes. I've never seen that for the serve. Viewed from above, you do keep the chest more sideways for the kick serve than for the slice and flat serves. If you put a protractor on the chest, my first estimate would be the chest is 45 d to the court sideline for a kick serve at impact. I have not studied ATP chest angles for the kick serve. If you find any ATP players keeping their chests 'sideways' please post the videos. The are some players that have their upper bodies more horizontal and chests with side more down for the kick serve. See Stosur. Anyway, you can't describe such 3D body orientations with one word like "sideways".

Kick serve. Spine more horizontal and chest more to the side. Head nearly horizontal.

 

[Yamin]

I'm self taught, have fewer tennis hours, but serve at that target speed and I'm a few inches shorter. With the level of technical analysis people do in this forum I thought everyone is 4.0+ with beastly serves.

Anyway, the way I taught myself is to adapt your toss to the serve rather than focus on all the service motions. For your motions, just think what is the hardest / fastest I can swing. Hit a ball. If it goes long, toss further into the court. If it's short, toss less into the court. Play around with the toss location (directly above your head, slightly more to the right, etc) until you can hit the serve consistently without thought. I have a short toss and hit the ball around its apex with a slightly open stance, and rarely use full shoulder extension as I'm injured.

 

[Dragy]

The OP's question was
- Do you think you should keep the body facing sideways as long as possible to get more momentum from the late body twist release?

This question indicates that he is not looking at ATP or other model server videos for timing information.

There is a persistent myth that you should keep the body 'sideways' for some strokes. I've never seen that for the serve. You do keep the chest more sideways for the kick serve that for the slice and flat serves. If you put a protractor on the chest my first estimate would be the chest is 45 d to the side line for a kick serve at impact. I have not studied ATP chest angles for the kick serve. If you find any ATP players keeping their chests sideways please post the videos. The are some that have their upper bodies more horizontal and chests with side more down. See Stosur. Anyway you can't describe such 3D body orientations with one word like "sideways".

Or maybe he does, as there could be a power leak from uncoiling/rotating too early - actually, for a server with set basic mechanics and sequencing it may be a good focus to delay uncoiling "as long as possible", provided the server still goes through the range of motion to deliver the blow on the ball.

For consideration, it takes <250ms for Kyrgios to get from start of shoulders rotation to impact, while this below serve of mine takes >350ms for same:

Velocity equals distance divided by time - a too simple formula, but as a way to check the outcome for given distance and known mechanics, not the worst. Mechanics is well known:
- get ball tossed to proper spot with suitable timing
- get loaded into trophy pose
- uncoil with flowing sequential motion: leg drive to rotate torso while arm drops into ESR, than swing arm up onto the ball and rotate internally to bring the stringbed to the ball

Now if you manage to to the above in shorter time, your RHS is most likely higher, unless you compromise it right around contact (tighten, or mistime the ball)

 

[fuzz nation]

My main questions are:
- Do you think you should keep the body facing sideways as long as possible to get more momentum from the late body twist release?
- Or do you get more speed just by concentrating on jumping up more explosively when starting the swing?
- How much the pronation contributes? I have the feeling that some power is lost because my pronation doesn’t get enough momentum. Do you get sore forearm from serving hard?

The topic of pronation has come into fashion through recent years, but I'd say it's been over-hyped. Folks were hitting enormous serves using wood racquets when I was a kid and nobody was talking about pronation as any sort of make-or-break factor for reaching the next level with that shot.

Look at it this way: If you're elbowing yourself in the stomach when you swing over the top to hit a serve, you need to add some pronation so that your arm can "turn over" or do what I like to think of as releasing so that the racquet can pass ahead of the swinging arm. If the racquet is releasing over the top and you're not elbowing yourself, you're fine there. Pronation is a result of other things happening correctly when you serve and not an action that you need to deliberately focus on or "do more of" to power up your serve.

Unfortunately I also agree with our pals above. It's impossible to know what sort of elements you're using to drive your serve now without seeing you hit some balls. Even with some video, I know that I'd be at a disadvantage compared with standing on the court and trading ideas and feedback while you hit some serves. There's no universal short list of fixes that work for everybody. That being said, there are a couple things that you can check.

I'm not wild about the idea of trying to jump up when hitting a serve. Instead of thinking about jumping, I'd say think about the action of pushing off against the court underneath you. Drive upward as you would if you wanted to throw your racquet in a high arc over the fence behind the far end of the court. You might already be doing this, but I'm always a little leery of the idea of folks trying to serve like a volleyball player who jumps and then serves after pushing away from the ground (two separate actions). You want to swing over the top as you're finishing the action of pushing off with your legs.

Use some practice motions without hitting a ball ("ghost strokes") to check your service motion and to dial in your best serving tempo. Your best tempo will feel loose and un-rushed to generate that best "whoosh" over the top. If you're gritting your teeth and gorilla gripping your racquet when you try to swing fast, that tension through the arm and gripping hand can kill your speed. If you can loosen up, you should be faster through the ball. You can also use those ghost motions while you experiment with using a more neutral/open stance vs. a more closed stance. Listen to the whoosh.

 

[Pumpkin]

Don't underestimate the role of the left arm in the serve. As you drive up with the legs, the left hand should drop and tuck in. This creates maximum stretch in the chest which creates an elastic band effect , where the chest can contract resulting in explosive power.

 

[Chas Tennis]

Or maybe he does, as there could be a power leak from uncoiling/rotating too early - actually, for a server with set basic mechanics and sequencing it may be a good focus to delay uncoiling "as long as possible", provided the server still goes through the range of motion to deliver the blow on the ball.

For consideration, it takes <250ms for Kyrgios to get from start of shoulders rotation to impact, while this below serve of mine takes >350ms for same:

Velocity equals distance divided by time - a too simple formula, but as a way to check the outcome for given distance and known mechanics, not the worst. Mechanics is well known:
- get ball tossed to proper spot with suitable timing
- get loaded into trophy pose
- uncoil with flowing sequential motion: leg drive to rotate torso while arm drops into ESR, than swing arm up onto the ball and rotate internally to bring the stringbed to the ball

Now if you manage to to the above in shorter time, your RHS is most likely higher, unless you compromise it right around contact (tighten, or mistime the ball)

@Hulger also, please explain your question using the time scale on the video.

- Do you think you should keep the body facing sideways as long as possible to get more momentum from the late body twist release?

I can't follow the OP's question very well, what part of the last sub-motion is he proposing to hold "as long as possible"? The time scale reaches 0 milliseconds on the frame closest to impact. Frames are 4.3 ms apart.

@Dragy. Can you describe your point using the time scale? The video pauses on certain frames and that frame has a label as to what is happening. Play through those pauses, too long to single frame.

To single frame on Youtube stop video and use the period & comma keys.

At what time is this high level server 'sideways'? His chest also faces up for a considerable time when Thoracic Extension occurs. At impact his body and spine tilt forward. I would always use high speed video while thinking about the service motions because otherwise there are things you miss. Should directions like 'to the side' be referenced to court lines, the ball's trajectory or body orientation for what "side" is? Or just forget word descriptions?

My estimate for the ISR - from start to impact - is about 25-30 milliseconds. As a general rule for me, the closer the time is to impact the more all the high level serves will look similar, because the biomechanics in use tend to require it.

 

[Hulger]

@Hulger also, please explain your question using the time scale on the video.

- Do you think you should keep the body facing sideways as long as possible to get more momentum from the late body twist release?

I can't follow the OP's question very well, what part of the last sub-motion is he proposing to hold "as long as possible"? The time scale reaches 0 milliseconds on the frame closest to impact. Frames are 4.3 ms apart.

@Dragy. Can you describe your point using the time scale? The video pauses on certain frames and that frame has a label as to what is happening. Play through those pauses, too long to single frame.

To single frame on Youtube stop video and use the period & comma keys.

My estimate for the ISR - from start to impact - is about 25-30 milliseconds. As a general rule for me, the closer the time is to impact the more all the high level serves will look similar, because the biomechanics in use tend to require it.

Hehe take it easy mate and thanks for your contribution.
Imo if you want to improve any fine motor skills it’s important to implement different visualizations and they might feel pretty drastic to onesef even if different outcomes are barely noticable for anyone else observing.

I mean by my first question that if you stretch the movement away from the hitting position and try to delay it before uncoiling, you might get this sling shot feeling from your back/flank. On the other hand, referring to 2nd question, just by jumping up and at the same lettiing the racquet drop down by the force of the upwards motion, you can also get nice ripping feeling.
3rd question: I think the most natural pronation occurs when you let the racquet face make a loop sideways parallel to baseline before starting internal rotatiin. This is an important point I have forgotten. Look at e.g. Thiem’s serve, the motion of the racquet is ridiculously loopy and cool.

Of course a good serve is about the whole kinetic chain and even pros have pretty different serving styles because of their different bodies.
I’m after a discussion about improving the 1st serve speed; something like visualisations, drills or routines that have helped you. Already many has been mentioned here, ty

 

[Chas Tennis]

There are word and video descriptions of tennis strokes. There are also feelings of movement that may be best for the individual but don't communicate on a forum.

For me, the word descriptions without video are all ambiguous.

 

[Chas Tennis]

.................................................................
3rd question: I think the most natural pronation occurs when you let the racquet face make a loop sideways parallel to baseline before starting internal rotatiin. This is an important point I have forgotten. Look at e.g. Thiem’s serve, the motion of the racquet is ridiculously loopy and cool.
.................................................

There is forearm supination where the racket head goes about parallel to the baseline before starting ISR. You can see that in the picture of the server with the red arrows before the lower red arrow. You can see that in high speed videos.

The racket is in a position with forearm supination and doing the motion of pronation to return before starting ISR.

Toly composite video. You can see the forearm supination take the racket head to the right stop and come back to the left below the lower red arrow.

 

[Dragy]

@Dragy. Can you describe your point using the time scale? The video pauses on certain frames and that frame has a label as to what is happening. Play through those pauses, too long to single frame.

Around 250ms is where torso rotation starts. Guy had a bit elongated leg drive phase, could be more explosive I suppose, but actually for platform servers it's common - weight shift and leg drive start overlap.

 

[Chas Tennis]

Around 250ms is where torso rotation starts. Guy had a bit elongated leg drive phase, could be more explosive I suppose, but actually for platform servers it's common - weight shift and leg drive start overlap.

I see that he seems to hold that position at 250 ms for some time. He is close to or in Trophy Position at 250 ms.

Players often wait or pause in Trophy Position to time their tossed ball and racket head to arrive at the impact location at the same time. That timing is very dependent on toss height. I've posted on that subject.

The OP should study his toss height and how it relates to his serve timing before adding some kind of delay by 'staying sideways as long as possible'. If he tosses high he might be pausing already................

Several high pace servers have had minimal ball toss heights. Roscoe Tanner, Sam Groth, Ivanisevic, etc. Roddick seems to have added a little stretch shorten cycle early before bringing the racket back up and back and he goes through Trophy Position fast. I don't know his toss height. For pace questions study the heights of high pace servers. Low tosses also really rush the receivers as Tanner has said.

OP should compare his serve to ATP servers single frame and side-by-side. Upload video to Youtube and compare on the forum using instructions that I can supply. If you don't want to post on the public forum have a friend sign up on the forum and have a Conversation with that party. Then you can do the comparisons privately and not on the forum.

 

[ballmachineguy]

I’m after a discussion about improving the 1st serve speed;

Then you’ll want to be wary of any advice that uses the terms “coiling,” “uncoiling,”
“staying sideways,” and “shoulder rotation.”

 

[socallefty]

Can someone post a still image of a player with no ISR on the serve and another player with ISR? Want to make sure my understanding of it is correct.

Instead of having my racquet be vertical above my shoulder, I have my racquet tip inward (maybe 30 degrees from vertical?) when I take the racquet up and that is my understanding of ISR. I then pronate my arm outward (right to left for lefty) to contact the ball while also hitting forward by moving my body forward.

 

[Dragy]

Can someone post a still image of a player with no ISR on the serve and another player with ISR? Want to make sure my understanding of it is correct.

Instead of having my racquet be vertical above my shoulder, I have my racquet tip inward (maybe 30 degrees from vertical?) when I take the racquet up and that is my understanding of ISR. I then pronate my arm outward (right to left for lefty) to contact the ball while also hitting forward by moving my body forward.

This "elbow up" finish is result of ISR:

Arm may be straight, but elbow still ends up pointing up:

Pronation is twisting the forearm, below elbow

 

[Dragy]

Kerber is an example of player under-utilizing ISR, as it seems: elbow stays pointing sideways, racquet pivots over the top:

 

[socallefty]

I meant photos showing the time of maximum ISR for one serve and no ISR for another serve. I think you have to show the still images when the racquet is up above the head with the shoulder internally rotated before you start arm pronation.

 

[socallefty]

Kerber is an example of player under-utilizing ISR, as it seems: elbow stays pointing sideways, racquet pivots over the top:

Agree there is not much ISR shown here. Wonder if the still images a bit before show the shoulder rotated inwards more or if this is all she does.

 

[Chas Tennis]

Can someone post a still image of a player with no ISR on the serve and another player with ISR? Want to make sure my understanding of it is correct.

Instead of having my racquet be vertical above my shoulder, I have my racquet tip inward (maybe 30 degrees from vertical?) when I take the racquet up and that is my understanding of ISR. I then pronate my arm outward (right to left for lefty) to contact the ball while also hitting forward by moving my body forward.

Most of your details are incomplete.

Step through clear high speed videos each time you think about internal shoulder rotation (ISR). Pronation on the serve with small forehand muscles is not what adds power to the serve, it's ISR with the large back muscle, the lat and the pec & others. Look up muscles that perform internal shoulder rotation. Look up Youtubes on how to measure internal and external shoulder rotation. These same joint terms are used for BOTH motion and position. You can be in a position of internal shoulder rotation and be doing the motion of external shoulder rotation.

Forum search: internal shoulder rotation Chas

Where does the upper arm go when you do ISR? (Trick question.)

Here are some amateur servers, most with Waiter's Tray and some not.

WT will have the racket face face the sky and not use much ISR so the racket face moves forward closing as it goes.

For high level serve you will see the racket edge briefly toward the ball where the WT faces the sky. See post #30. ISR rotates the upper arm from start to impact where the red arrows are shown on the picture.

Google: hi tech tennis waiter's tray error

My estimates--
High level technique - <20%? serves
Waiter's Tray serve - >60%? active tennis players
Miscellaneous technique - 30%?

 

[socallefty]

Most of your details are incomplete.

Can you help and post some pics so that I understand in that case? I have googled and never found the best examples of maximum ISR on the serve.

 

[Dragy]

I meant photos showing the time of maximum ISR for one serve and no ISR for another serve. I think you have to show the still images when the racquet is up above the head with the shoulder internally rotated before you start arm pronation.

I think you hardly find completely no-ISR but in frying-pan rec serve. In decent serve it’s full ESR coming out of drop through to near “big L”, then it’s rapid ISR time going through contact towards Fed extended position on the still I posted above

 

[Chas Tennis]

Can someone post a still image of a player with no ISR on the serve and another player with ISR? Want to make sure my understanding of it is correct.

Instead of having my racquet be vertical above my shoulder, I have my racquet tip inward (maybe 30 degrees from vertical?) when I take the racquet up and that is my understanding of ISR. I then pronate my arm outward (right to left for lefty) to contact the ball while also hitting forward by moving my body forward.

Here are some amateur players, mostly with Waiter's Tray and some not. Look at them, make a list of the impact times of servers where the racket face faces the sky.

Can you help and post some pics so that I understand in that case? I have googled and never found the best examples of maximum ISR on the serve.

I have Googled for the last 10 years and am cutting back some because my time has become more valuable now. Looking for some help.

I don't know the angular range of ISR, start to impact. 60-90 degrees? Maximum? Which type of serve? The best camera view for ISR angles is the overhead camera view. But those videos are hard to find for ATP servers.

 

[ballmachineguy]

Who is going to learn anything from a technical discussion of ISR? This forum is for tips and instruction. This stuff is just going to confuse people and crush a beginner’s confidence. Just more over complicating things.

 

[Chas Tennis]

Who is going to learn anything from a technical discussion of ISR? This forum is for tips and instruction. This stuff is just going to confuse people and crush a beginner’s confidence. Just more over complicating things.

In this new Information Age, those that are interested, motivated and can Google will learn a lot in a very short time.

 

[yossarian]

Can chas just post his own serve already for ****s sake

 

[ballmachineguy]

In this new Information Age, those that are interested, motivated and can Google will learn a lot in a very short time.

Learning about ISR won’t help any one hit a tennis ball.

 

[Fxanimator1]

Kerber is an example of player under-utilizing ISR, as it seems: elbow stays pointing sideways, racquet pivots over the top:

That’s because her whole arm is all going forward, instead of stopping and letting her hand and racquet outrun the upward arm position. Essentially, she’s losing racquet head speed and putting unnecessary stress on her shoulder.

 

[Fxanimator1]

Learning about ISR won’t help any one hit a tennis ball.

You are wrong, but I’m sure you’re used to that, based on what I’ve read in the past. It is good to know what is supposed to happen on the serve in regards to joint angles, body positions and timing. The hard part though, is knowing how that rotation is supposed to occur. It’s a very hard concept to explain. For me, it’s having my whole arm, hand and shoulder relaxed, from there, joint position and my body is what delivers the power that creates ISR. ISR is not something that your shoulder muscles do by conscious choice, for me, almost no shoulder muscle is involved, at least that’s how it feels to me.
You will know you have solved the riddle when the ball and racquet collision sounds like a gunshot. It sounds like an explosion kind of.

 

[ballmachineguy]

You are wrong, but I’m sure you’re used to that, based on what I’ve read in the past. It is good to know what is supposed to happen on the serve in regards to joint angles, body positions and timing. The hard part though, is knowing how that rotation is supposed to occur. It’s a very hard concept to explain, for me, it’s having my whole arm, hand and shoulder relaxed, from there, joint position and my body is what delivers the power that creates ISR. ISR is not something that your shoulder muscles do by conscious choice.

I’m not wrong. I bet had you asked any world number 1 before the year 2000 about ISR, they probably wouldn’t know what you were talking about. Yet they still hit great serves.
ISR happens from what you are doing to the racquet with the hand. Thinking about how the shoulder is rotating in the socket due to that won’t get you anywhere. Knowing what joint movements are called doesn’t teach tennis.

I am told I am wrong on here plenty. That’s because it is different than the current knowledge of most of the other posters. They probably average 3.25 level strokes and when something doesn’t fit into their knowledge base they reject it. Kind of like when someone first reported the world is round. I guess they can continue on playing bad tennis.

 

[WildVolley]

Reading about internal shoulder rotation won't ruin your serve. It's an interesting factoid.

However, today we have high-speed video which allows us to examine what the best in the world are doing and compare it to what we're doing. That can be very useful.

It's just the first step. Then you need to attempt to make changes and have some sort of feedback mechanism. Most of the top pros have coaches who provide them with feedback. Without a good coach, you need to use video or tell a friend what to look for.