tennis_ocd
Hall of Fame
Key is "some form." How many actually use a full western? I'm thinking very few.
Instructor wants to change child's grip.
- Thread starter Mrnoital
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tennis_ocd
Hall of Fame
fwiw I like his thinking.... but I tire of the youth baseline drone play. If you stay full western she'll be challanged by low, flat hitters as she progresses. I like the idea of her coach talking a full court game; not some baseline topspin challange.
It's an article based on a scientific study so I assume all the variables you mention were taken into account when the study was done. It's hard to imagine otherwise. In fact the conclusion that it is the strength of the wrist or lack there of that is the culprit and not poor technique suggests just that. I'm not claiming the study is proof of anything, I'm just saying it's unlikely they did not include the variables you mention.
The comment was about the ease of switching from an eastern grip to a volley grip.
. Her coach is a doctor in making so he sometimes goes a little overboard about the possibility of injury imo. He was the first one to suggest to us that a full western grip is associated with wrist injury. I did a little research and found the article about the study. My daughter is on the lean/small side and it seems logical that the strength of the wrist would be a contributing factor. I'm not saying get rid of the western, that it's no good. I'm just saying the conclusions referenced in the study seem logical.. as opposed to simply saying the injuries are due to improper technique. BTW, They looked at wrist injury across the board. It's just that the Western grip players apparently had many more.
Thanks for that!
I find this thread very confusing, but then I'm not involved in girl's junior tennis.
How can a competitive junior playing high school matches not be ready for a moon ball attack? Isn't that the most predictable thing in the world? I could understand if someone came out playing a big time S&V game and she wasn't ready for it. But a pusher?
The grip issue is confusing as well. Both the W and E are not optimal for modern tennis. And no one should be trying to volley with a W, so I have no idea what the coach is getting at with that complaint. It is common to adjust the grip for very low or very high balls, so I don't get that either.
Personally, if the choice were between an E and a W, I would say eastern. But that is not the choice. As others have noted, she can go SW and get a bit of the best of both. Duhhh.
How can a competitive junior playing high school matches not be ready for a moon ball attack? Isn't that the most predictable thing in the world? I could understand if someone came out playing a big time S&V game and she wasn't ready for it. But a pusher?
The grip issue is confusing as well. Both the W and E are not optimal for modern tennis. And no one should be trying to volley with a W, so I have no idea what the coach is getting at with that complaint. It is common to adjust the grip for very low or very high balls, so I don't get that either.
Personally, if the choice were between an E and a W, I would say eastern. But that is not the choice. As others have noted, she can go SW and get a bit of the best of both. Duhhh.
About the injury issue. I'm not a fan of the W grip and could see how it might be a problem. A far more likely injury culprit however is the type of style being employed. We know a W grip player is almost invariably going to be a topspin baseline grinder. In other words, someone who is going to be playing long points with a lot of shots requiring a maximum effort swing. Is it a surprise that style leads to more injuries?
Most of the girls who moon ball in her league do so out of necessity. She can return enough of them until she sees an opportunity or until the opponent misses. In her district match her opponent was a much better player and used McDonald arch like moon balls as a tactic not out of necessity. She was being out played and had a hard time with my daughters shots. The other players coach could be heard coaching her student to moon ball higher. My daughter has only 9 months worth of lessons. I guess the answer to your question is that there is a lot to learn and you can accomplish only so much in 9 months.
She is not volleying with a western. He is referring to the ease of changing from an eastern to a volley grip compared to changing from a western to a volley grip.
Hence the reason why I started this thread and asked the question. It's a bit of a mystery but her coach clearly does not like a western grip.
I would say that my daughters biggest attribute when it comes to tennis is her athleticism. What she lacks in experience and technique, she makes up for with an amazing ability to get a racket on balls that most girls would give up on. Her coach hates baseline tennis and teaches that she should try and end the point as soon as possible. My daughter herself does not like baseline tennis.
T
TCF
Guest
Here is what I would do in your shoes. Pull out the dad card and make the decision.
Sit them both down and say "coach, I respect your reasons for wanting to get away from full western, daughter I understand you are comfortable with it....but I pay the bills and I think a compromise of SW is in order".
Rick Macci and other coaches also agree that for most girls full W can be limiting long term as the spin generated is not enough to be a weapon and instead it sits up there. So some solid coaches push female players away from full W. Of course there are exceptions, but playing the %s, its a solid move to go to SW.
Sit them both down and say "coach, I respect your reasons for wanting to get away from full western, daughter I understand you are comfortable with it....but I pay the bills and I think a compromise of SW is in order".
Rick Macci and other coaches also agree that for most girls full W can be limiting long term as the spin generated is not enough to be a weapon and instead it sits up there. So some solid coaches push female players away from full W. Of course there are exceptions, but playing the %s, its a solid move to go to SW.
TimeSpiral
Professional
OP -- I'm going straight to my response without reading this thread.
I'm doing this to remove any potential influence from the other posters, giving you an unfiltered response.
Disclaimer: I'm not a tennis coach, or tennis professional, but a natural teacher in other disciplines.
Style is important and should be cultivated by the teacher, not necessarily mandated or crafted. In my opinion, grip positions are largely stylistic. They definitely carry technical considerations, but as a general rule of thumb, you shouldn't change a good shot. Yes, playing with a Western grip is considered extreme, but changing to an Eastern would be equally as extreme when considered in context.
I think you've answered your own concerns in your post. If your daughter wants to pursue tennis, give her a strong and meaningful voice in how she moves forward. If she doesn't like the direction with the coach, and she's not feeling a chemistry there: listen to her. I'd imagine she wants to advance, play well, and explore the future of tennis--not the past. This guy's affinity to the old game (for lack of a better term) is probably not a good fit for your daughter, given what you've shared.
I know you're attributing--at least partially--her recent meteoric rise in skill to this new coach, but that could very well be incidental. Your daughter is young, talented, and practicing a lot. She would likely increase her skill quickly regardless of who was training her, however; getting the right coach is something that can have a long-lasting and positive effective for years to come. Do not make the choice lightly.
The teacher should recognize the natural raw talent/ability in the student and create an environment that facilitates the refining of that talent to into skill.
I hope this helps!
I'm doing this to remove any potential influence from the other posters, giving you an unfiltered response.
Disclaimer: I'm not a tennis coach, or tennis professional, but a natural teacher in other disciplines.
Style is important and should be cultivated by the teacher, not necessarily mandated or crafted. In my opinion, grip positions are largely stylistic. They definitely carry technical considerations, but as a general rule of thumb, you shouldn't change a good shot. Yes, playing with a Western grip is considered extreme, but changing to an Eastern would be equally as extreme when considered in context.
I think you've answered your own concerns in your post. If your daughter wants to pursue tennis, give her a strong and meaningful voice in how she moves forward. If she doesn't like the direction with the coach, and she's not feeling a chemistry there: listen to her. I'd imagine she wants to advance, play well, and explore the future of tennis--not the past. This guy's affinity to the old game (for lack of a better term) is probably not a good fit for your daughter, given what you've shared.
I know you're attributing--at least partially--her recent meteoric rise in skill to this new coach, but that could very well be incidental. Your daughter is young, talented, and practicing a lot. She would likely increase her skill quickly regardless of who was training her, however; getting the right coach is something that can have a long-lasting and positive effective for years to come. Do not make the choice lightly.
The teacher should recognize the natural raw talent/ability in the student and create an environment that facilitates the refining of that talent to into skill.
I hope this helps!
Thanks for your opinion Time Spiral and thanks again to everyone who chimed in. I think the issue has been hashed out and all bases covered so I'll let the thread die out. I'll try and update this in a few weeks and let you know where we stand.
Fair enough. She is still learning, and that match was a learning experience for her.
I understand that her coach doesn't like W, but what about SW? Has that not been discussed? I think most of us, not all but most, would support a change from full W. It's just that going directly to full E seems radical. A point to consider is she is not going to be able to handle high balls, ie from the moonballer, with an E grip, not unless she plans to slice them.
I will add she is very lucky to have such a thoughtful father who is so supportive of her tennis. Good luck.
I don't think you have to have been coaching for a bazillion years to realize that asking a kid to change from a full western to an eastern is a stupid idea. I'm a weekend warrior who uses a semi-western and when I joke around trying to hit forehands with an eastern I'm lucky if the ball doesn't fly into the next county.
I can understand maybe pushing her to try a semi-western..but an eastern?
I can understand maybe pushing her to try a semi-western..but an eastern?
johnchung907
Rookie
And still great now... like Del Potro for example... a slightly better forehand then Djokovic or Murray for sure.
johnchung907
Rookie
My advice is give it a chance. Let her play around with it for 2 weeks. If she doesn't like it, just tell the coach and switch back. Personally, I turned from a Western to a Eastern, to a Modified Eastern (Won't go any further). Each grip has it's respective advantages and disadvantages.
..and when the kid is 6'7 maybe she should consider an eastern grip.
It's like saying kids should hit flat serves like Karlovic..it works for him, doesn't it?
tennis_ocd
Hall of Fame
in my limited experience, kids (all new players?) tend to gradually shift in a western direction. Perhaps the coach just wants to make the big change with the expectation she'll slowly transition to a semi???
johnchung907
Rookie
I think your using the misconception that height determines how great a forehand is. It's about technique... if anyone had delpo's technique per say, no matter what height, it would be very dangerous. Obviously you don't know anything about tennis if you say height is a major factor on a forehand.
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Before you start saying people don't know anything about tennis, you should work on your reading comprehension.
My point was that guys with Delpo's height can get away with using an Eastern grip because high bouncing balls don't present the problem that they would to say, someone who is 5'5. It has nothing to do with height=great forehand, it has to do with height=usefullness of certain grips.
Nasty little kids on this forum. :-?
johnchung907
Rookie
If height = usefullness of certain grips really applies, why does John Isner (who has a great forehand) use a western grip if he's that tall? Height does not determine what grip you should use... it's about TECHNIQUE.
Nasty babies on this forum
arche3
Banned
If height = usefullness of certain grips really applies, why does John Isner (who has a great forehand) use a western grip if he's that tall? Height does not determine what grip you should use... it's about TECHNIQUE.
Nasty babies on this forum
Height actually does sway kids to certain grips, the contact point is easier for certain height and bounces vs grips.
Smaller girls and kids always gravitate to a full western at first. Its easier to hit balls bouncing high.
johnchung907
Rookie
But say if they had an eastern grip, with great technique. It would be just as effective correct? He's talking about usefulness of certain grips with height. I'm saying technique determines it. If you had good technique hypothetically, high balls wouldn't trouble you.
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If height = usefullness of certain grips really applies, why does John Isner (who has a great forehand) use a western grip if he's that tall? Height does not determine what grip you should use... it's about TECHNIQUE.
Nasty babies on this forum
I also never said it's 100% causality that a tall person uses a western grip and taller use eastern.
This entire (sad) discussion is in the context of a young player who is already hitting in a Western grip being told to switch to an Eastern..and as usual, it will degenerate into a pathetic ******* match that goes completely off topic.
Again, I quote you "I think your(sic) using the misconception that height determines how great a forehand is." Nowhere did I ...or anyone else for that matter, ever put forth a single word that implies anything remotely to what you started bloviating about in that sentence.
Some really passive aggressive little men on this forum. :-|
If you're 5 feet tall and hit with an Eastern grip and return flat shots fine, yes hitting deep topspin that bounces 6 feet in the air will trouble you much more with that grip than with a full Western. Without question.
arche3
Banned
Height does play a factor in grips. Little girls are hitting a lot of top spin. Ball bounces almost over their head. A western allows contact in front and a top spin reply easier than a eastern. Which will tend to be more error prone against a high top spin ball because you need to hit it earlier. But yeah perfect technique in any grip works. But tennis for the most part is a percentage game so thats why the smaller kids tend towards western.
...nope, tiny little smart man on internet say little girl must have bad technique if 5 foot tall 11 year old can't return 10 foot moonball with eastern grip.
Get a new coach. A good coach can coach techniques that they don't use themselves.
johnchung907
Rookie
But if you have great technique and footwork, then it doesn't matter. It'll be just as effective.
We really have some dumb drunk people on this forum
johnchung907
Rookie
Enough with this petty argument anyways though. This has nothing to relate with what the OP said. Are you saying that she should keep a western just because she's short? I mean an eastern works just as well and I SUGGESTED that she should give it a chance AND if it doesn't work out SHE COULD ALWAYS SWITCH BACK. Wow sounds like you have an extreme grip yourself. Who you calling tiny? Oh wait I think that's a reference to you because "height" makes such a big difference and u most be so short, u hit with an extreme western. And guess what tiny man, I'm using a modified eastern... and not that tall. And I'm pretty sure my forehand could beat your stupid moonballing tactics.
ElMagoElGato
Semi-Pro
OP should be careful about this coach. Kids can grow very fast in good environment even with a bad coach. On the other hand, if you try something else like for just 2 weeks, it might break your technique and costs you more than a few months or a year to get back, which is deadly for a comptetive young player. Also, this coach might stick with Eastern even after switched back to Western. It'll bring down your motivation greatly if you always have someone that tells you you're wrong.
OP is mostly buying the environment the coach provides. Maybe it's the time for a change.
OP is mostly buying the environment the coach provides. Maybe it's the time for a change.
Spin Doctor
Professional
I agree with arche and dman about western grips suiting shorter players but not even for the reasons they cited. Sure contact point matters. But what matters more is the style of play that a shorter player is more likely to adopt. Sure, if you can hit powerful flat shots and drive through the court, then Eastern is great. But how many short players can generate that kind of power? If you look at players that successfully used Eastern (del Potro, Davenport etc) they tend to be tall and very powerful. OP has indicated his daughter is short and not that strong. If you can't generate power then you need spin to create the depth and offense to make up for lack of power. Eastern is also good if you're all-court or S&V but these styles seem dead at the junior level. And again, shorter players do not suit S&V or net play. Generally, shorter players suit counterpunching, retrieving and sometimes aggressive baselining.
Obviously I am grossly generalizing here and intellectually I hate pigeon holing people based on size but it is something to consider. A person's size and relative strengths/weaknesses needs to be considered when adopting a playing style. And consequently playing style needs to be considered when adopting a grip.
Obviously I am grossly generalizing here and intellectually I hate pigeon holing people based on size but it is something to consider. A person's size and relative strengths/weaknesses needs to be considered when adopting a playing style. And consequently playing style needs to be considered when adopting a grip.
Your daughter might enjoy reading the book Maximum Tennis by Nick Saviano. It's been around for awhile, but it is very good for junior players. One of the reasons Nick is a successful coach is that he is good at helping players find their style.
Thanks for the comment. Did I say she was not that strong? What I should have said is that while my daughter is on the smaller side she generates plenty of power. In fact she recently played a girl who beat her 6-0 6-0 last year by completely over powering her. This year they played again and my daughter was clearly the harder hitter beating the same girl 6-2 7-5.
The issue of this thread has been resolved because I just fired her coach a few hours ago.
She will begin taking lessons from the coach we always wanted for her in the first place and I am very confident that he will sort out any grip issues. In fact I'm fairly certain he will tell her to use whatever grip she feels most comfortable with. Both my daughter and I feel as if a weight has been lifted off of our shoulders!You are correct.
A change has been made!:mrgreen: I fired her coach and hired a new one.
TimeSpiral
Professional
[...] I fired her coach and hired a new one.
Happy to hear it! I believe you made the right move.
You are correct.
A change has been made!:mrgreen: I fired her coach and hired a new one.
Best of luck, sounds like you did the right thing.
tennis_ocd
Hall of Fame
best of luck. It was certainly the easiest short term solution.... I was looking forward to hearing how the change worked out in a few weeks.
It is very tough to take a step backward for long term improvement. Admittedly not a big fan of full western for high level girls; great for younger moonballers.
It is very tough to take a step backward for long term improvement. Admittedly not a big fan of full western for high level girls; great for younger moonballers.
She is well past the moon-ball stage. She'll sort it out with her new coach. We are not against any changes if there is a good reason to change. This particular coach has worked with my daughter perhaps a dozen times in the past and they have a great rapport. This change in coaches will also free her up to do other tennis related activities which her old coach did not want her to participate in.
T
TCF
Guest
Sounds like the right move. From your very first post it was obvious he just was not the right coach for you guys.
As someone who switched coaches for my kids (it's been exactly one year), I say, "Good for you!" My only regret was not doing it earlier. My kids now train with someone that they trust wholeheartedly. They believe what he says will help them. They did not have this belief with their previous coach.
