Is it ok to copy Federer forehand when I'm at 3.5 level?

[sureshs]

Hello,

I'm wondering is it ok to copy Federer forehand when I'm at 3.5 level. I'm also using eastern grip, when I review my recordings, I can see especially that my take back, back swing, wrist flip and racket lag are quite different from Federer, well, that's almost everything. Can I just try to copy everything from him blindly or are his movements too advanced for me still? Thank you.

Federer uses SW grip

 

[Chas Tennis]

I knew what he meant. Don’t believe it works like that.
The hips will move to a spot that allows the hitting shoulder to use as a base to pull towards. Mostly they are getting to a spot that allows an out-front contact point. Sometimes the hip movement looks like it happens before the shoulders, other times at the same time.
Trying to build a stretch (store energy) would take so much rotation and time waiting for it to happen that it would cause problems with the stroke. Definitely a loss of control of the ball depth and velocity.

"Trying to build a stretch (store energy) would take so much rotation and time waiting for it to happen that it would cause problems with the stroke." Do you have a reference for this? Any evidence? Hold your two arms straight out to your sides, gently turn back and forward, doing separation of the line between the 2 shoulders and the line between the two hips.

Now watch ATP & WTA players do separation on their ground stroke drives when they want to hit pace. Observe the speed.

Athletes are the ones that know how to use the Stretch Shorten Cycles effectively in their athletic movements.

Try and find the highest level of knowledge about tennis strokes (or any other subject). Biomechanics is my choice. If the biomechanics disagrees with your view always give it some consideration.

Consider the Evidence/Confidence Ratio

 

[FuzzyYellowBalls]

Federer uses SW grip

Too much pickleball shoooresssh

 

[ballmachineguy]

"Trying to build a stretch (store energy) would take so much rotation and time waiting for it to happen that it would cause problems with the stroke." Do you have a reference for this? Any evidence?

Yes. My experience.

If you focus on the hitting shoulder taking the racquet to contact with maximum speed, the hips will move the necessary amount without thought. This is what you see in your videos. What you don’t see in the videos is someone focusing on making the hips move to then pull the shoulder forward. While the difference may seem insignificant, and you might not be able to see a difference at slow speed the resulting stroke from the two methods is huge. Way different biomechanically also.

 

[Chas Tennis]

Yes. My experience.

If you focus on the hitting shoulder taking the racquet to contact with maximum speed, the hips will move the necessary amount without thought. This is what you see in your videos. What you don’t see in the videos is someone focusing on making the hips move to then pull the shoulder forward. While the difference may seem insignificant, and you might not be able to see a difference at slow speed the resulting stroke from the two methods is huge. Way different biomechanically also.

"What you don’t see in the videos is someone focusing on making the hips move to then pull the shoulder forward."

Who said anything about "someone focusing on making the hips move to then pull the shoulder forward" other than you?

A Strawman Argument involves creating a statement that was never said and then correcting it. I used to do some of that without knowing it. I realized it and stopped.

Straw man - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Passive muscle forces are produced by stretched muscles and they do not require the same nerve signals from the brain as active muscle forces do. Studying the Stretch Shorten Cycle should deal with that subject. I don't understand how passive muscles forces are initiated. It might be similar to releasing a sling shot.

 

[ballmachineguy]

"What you don’t see in the videos is someone focusing on making the hips move to then pull the shoulder forward."

Who said anything about "someone focusing on making the hips move to then pull the shoulder forward" other than you?

A Strawman Argument involves creating a statement that was never said and then correcting it. I used to do some of that without knowing it. I realized it and stopped.

Straw man - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Passive muscle forces are produced by stretched muscles and they do not require the same nerve signals from the brain as active muscle forces do. Studying the Stretch Shorten Cycle should deal with that subject. I don't understand how passive muscles forces are initiated. It might be similar to releasing a sling shot.

What separation angle are you on about when it is a natural occurrence of everyone who hits a forehand with a correct contact point. Quit making things that aren’t instruction instruction.
Huge problem on this forum is turning every body movement into something that needs to be focused on. Yes focused. I have read people talk about how they have to get their hips to bring the racquet forward.
Oh, and my apologies, in advance, if I used any terminology that is ambiguous or not clear enough for you.

 

[Chas Tennis]

For those readers that like to focus on subjects -

Bruce Elliott is the recognized and prominent tennis researcher that measured and published the work on Internal Shoulder Rotation during the tennis serve. The measurements used 3D motion capture systems.

Here is Bruce focusing on the forehand biomechanics of separation, the OP topic.

This video clip starts at 19:47, the section on forehand separation.

Thanks Bruce, for focusing on this interesting topic and showing the biomechanical evidence behind separation. This really brings things into focus for me.

 

[ballmachineguy]

For those readers that like to focus on subjects -

Bruce Elliott is the recognized and prominent tennis researcher that measured and published the work on Internal Shoulder Rotation during the tennis serve. The measurements used 3D motion capture systems.

Here is Bruce focusing on the forehand biomechanics of separation, the OP topic.

This video clip starts at 19:47, the section on forehand separation.

Thanks Bruce, for focusing on this interesting topic and showing the biomechanical evidence behind separation. This really brings things into focus for me.

Yeah, thanks Bruce!

 

[JohnYandell]

Suresh,
No. Eastern sliding slightly to sw but not sw.

 

[Sea70]

When Federer was young, they taught him the fundamentals. After years of practice, this is what his forehand looks like. I’m sure neither his coaches or him could have predicted his forehand would look the way it does when he was a junior. I’ve never heard of one high level junior coach try to coach a kid to have his stroke look like a pros. I do see them coach the fundamentals of a pro.



Most adults I see that tries to hit so it looks like a pro never gets the legs portion correct. Pros or higher level players hits the way they do because they load correctly which in turns accelerates the upper body. (Coiling, uncoiling, kinetic chain…..)

When trying to copy a high level player, you won’t be able to get that type of rhs from the upper body only. You will need to get it from the ground up. That’s why it always looks like they’re arming the ball or over rotating when they try.

 

[ariwibowo]

I tried to copy RF forehand since I am more of eastern too, a bit semi western now. Need to remind you that his forehand changed after using RF97, more wristy with short take back. Better copy his old style when still using Pro Staff 90, a pure eastern with fast and long swing.

 

[Chas Tennis]

When Federer was young, they taught him the fundamentals. After years of practice, this is what his forehand looks like. I’m sure neither his coaches or him could have predicted his forehand would look the way it does when he was a junior. I’ve never heard of one high level junior coach try to coach a kid to have his stroke look like a pros. I do see them coach the fundamentals of a pro.



Most adults I see that tries to hit so it looks like a pro never gets the legs portion correct. Pros or higher level players hits the way they do because they load correctly which in turns accelerates the upper body. (Coiling, uncoiling, kinetic chain…..)

When trying to copy a high level player, you won’t be able to get that type of rhs from the upper body only. You will need to get it from the ground up. That’s why it always looks like they’re arming the ball or over rotating when they try.

If not the pros, what models are there being used?

For younger players, there are developmental stages where certain motions are expected at certain ages. Elliott has some developmental information in his reference book on strokes. Technique Development for Tennis Stroke Production (2009)

 

[user92626]

If not the pros, what models are there being used?

He said: I do see them coach the fundamentals of a pro. Chas.

Probably, just pick a good pro that shows the fundamentals most obviously and follow?


Anyhoo, @Sea70 made a good post. I also observe that it's pretty darn tough to generate pro level power in our swing even if we just stay in our back yard and don't move in a real game. Pros need to work out heavily away from the court to have that kind of power.

Most of us able bodied could hit the gym for that, too, but it's as fun as going to the dentist.

 

[Chas Tennis]

He said: I do see them coach the fundamentals of a pro. Chas.

Probably, just pick a good pro that shows the fundamentals most obviously and follow?


Anyhoo, @Sea70 made a good post. I also observe that it's pretty darn tough to generate pro level power in our swing even if we just stay in our back yard and don't move in a real game. Pros need to work out heavily away from the court to have that kind of power.

Most of us able bodied could hit the gym for that, too, but it's as fun as going to the dentist.

There are specific sub-motions of the pro strokes that the most successful pro players in the world are using. There is a lot said against those techniques by forum posters, but where is the evidence - hopefully there is some to refer to- for what those posters believe. The performance level in speed, consistency and safety by the pros is obviously outstanding and very rare. But the basic sub-motion techniques that are being used by pros can be clearly seen in videos. When rec players post videos of their strokes, it is not difficult to develop a list of other DIY sub-motions that posters have somehow found or created. I believe that a reasonable approach is to use toned-down sub-motions - similar to the techniques of the pros, but limited. These appear to be the techniques that are widely being taught whenever the techniques are clear in biomechanically sound instruction. In most other instruction, the techniques being taught are not clear and are not clearly shown in high speed videos.

If the pro technique is not being taught and should not be taught, then what is the model that is being taught?

If not the pros, then what is the model stroke being taught? Nobody ever attempts to describe the alternative to the pro model. The 80% performance model........... Of course, that other model would have to have sub-motions that differ from the pro model in order to sustain the argument - don't use the techniques of the pros.

What's true?

Tennis Stroke Nuthouse 2023.

 

[user92626]

Whenever I ask, if the pro technique is not being taught or should not be taught, what is the model that is taught?

If not the pros, then what is the model stroke being taught?

What's true?

Tennis Stroke Nuthouse 2023.

Can you specify what "the pro technique" is? It seems to vary person to person.

 

[Chas Tennis]

@user92626 "the pro technique"

I have been specifying the pro sub-motions, as soon as I understood things about those sub-motions, for the last 12 years. A set of sub-motions is a pro's stroke technique. A sub-motion has it's own technique.

Sub-Motions are identifiable parts of strokes that lend themselves to discussion. ISR & ESR, Wrist Motion, Thoracic Extension & Flexion

All high level techniques used by the pros are included.

Forehand Drive Techniques
1) Federer has a straight elbow forehand.
2) Djokovic has a bent elbow forehand.
3) others?

One Hand Backhand Techniques
1) Federer and F. Lopez used one hand backhands without effective 'chest press'.
2) Most other one hand backhand pros use chest press, Wawrinka, Gasquet, Justine Henin, several more, etc.

There are many sub-motions identified in this long thread for the one hand backhand. First sub-motion was 'chest press' in post #51. Other sub-motions were posted when identified. High speed videos for each.

One Hand Backhand - Waht Force to Start Forward Swing?

One Hand Backhand - What Force to Start Forward Swing? I have just been watching great one-hand backhands at the Madrid Open. Including excellent slow motion that can be replayed in even slower motion or single frame with my DVR. Often when I try to swing forward for a one hand backhand...

tt.tennis-warehouse.com

My descriptions of pro techniques consists of certain sub-motions that I observed and studied in the ATP and WTA. I did not study all sub-motions in a stoke. Search for my posts. The one hand backhand thread has all sub-motions found (and counting) in one place. One source of information is viewing clear high speed videos.

Forum Search:
forehand separation
Thoracic Extensioin
Internal Shoulder Rotation
Scapulothoracic Protraction
one hand backhand

Member: Chas Tennis

I missed Internal Shoulder Rotation for the serve for 35 years, so I emphasize the part of the strokes leading to ball impact as a first priority. I have not posted much on footwork.

 

[slipgrip93]

Meike covers fundamentals of the forehand, and certain "box checkpoints" of it, or similar to fundamental 'sub-motions' perhaps.

"With this video, I'm going back to the basics of the tennis forehand. Before you can add MONSTER pace and heavy topspin you need to make sure that you have sound technique. In this video, I'll break down exactly what the KEY POINTS are you need to have to develop a great forehand."

Then at the 6:30 mark, she goes into a little bit on the question of emulating forehands of pros like Federer and Nadal.

 

[ballmachineguy]

Meike covers fundamentals of the forehand, and certain "box checkpoints" of it, or similar to fundamental 'sub-motions' perhaps.

Then at the 6:30 mark, she goes into a little bit on the question of emulating forehands of pros like Federer and Nadal.

Video is ok, but, once again, a video that might lead people to believe that acceleration starts from what she calls the “lock-in” position. She says the drop is from gravity. Maybe she never took Physics, but gravity causes acceleration when dropping something.
Also, what she says to not call the “snap” is a reaction to getting in the “lock-in” position. The racquet drops and the arm supinates into the lock-in and what she describes as “rolling over the ball” is the pronation that is an opposite reaction to the supination. It should feel like the pronation through contact is initiated by the supination at what I refer to as the “flip” (she the lock-in) Racquet head hits bottom from the drop and bounces up because your hand is bringing it toward contact. The forehand is ONE continuous motion from the start of the drop through contact, accelerating all of the way. (Initial accel is just started by gravity and ramps up quickly to cause the “lock-in” and “roll-over,” as she calls it.