Coach wants me (3.5) to switch to WTA forehand

stephan_58

Rookie
Thanks for the input guys, some very good points here. I think I wasn't fully aware of all the differences between the ATP and WTA forehand. I now think the coach wants to steer me more towards a Agassi/Kuerten type forehand rather than a full WTA one which I think I would be alright with. That change should be easier. I'll just discuss it with him next time.

Since some of you mentioned I could post a video of my current forehand I found one from last year. Shouldn't have changed much since then. However I should mention that this is from a session with a ball machine where I was very relaxed and this is also just an example where I timed the ball well, there are tons of examples where that wasn't the case. In a match the stroke is less fluid and more tense unfortunately.

w4Lq6JQ.gif
 
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5263

G.O.A.T.
I think the ATP style results in more mishits due to the racquet face changing ("flip") and will take longer to learn... Maybe some 3.5 players pick it up quickly, but I doubt it.
As his coach said, it takes a many more hours to perfect the ATP style.
that is just not true. with good coaching and a true desire to learn, the ATP is a snap to learn and he is most of the way there if he is already keeping the racket on the hitting side. The flip is not always a major feature of the ATP fh and is seem at many various degrees of function with different players.
 

5263

G.O.A.T.
Thanks for the input guys, some very good points here. I think I wasn't fully aware of all the differences between the ATP and WTA forehand. I now think the coach wants to steer me more towards a Agassi/Kuerten type forehand rather than a full WTA one which I think I would be alright with. That change should be easier. I'll just discuss it with him next time.

Since some of you mentioned I could post a video of my current forehand I found one from last year. Shouldn't have changed much since then. It's a bit small, sorry.

w4Lq6JQ.gif
why on earth would you want to change this Fh to a Wta??? Imo you should just work on getting it more to semi open and hit closer to the dampner for your pull "up and across" as you drive thru the ball. No good coach would change this to Wta.
 

Dartagnan64

G.O.A.T.
Thanks for the input guys, some very good points here. I think I wasn't fully aware of all the differences between the ATP and WTA forehand. I now think the coach wants to steer me more towards a Agassi/Kuerten type forehand rather than a full WTA one which I think I would be alright with. That change should be easier. I'll just discuss it with him next time.

Since some of you mentioned I could post a video of my current forehand I found one from last year. Shouldn't have changed much since then. However I should mention that this is from a session with a ball machine where I was very relaxed and this is also just an example where I timed the ball well, there are tons of examples where that wasn't the case. In a match the stroke is less fluid and more tense unfortunately.

w4Lq6JQ.gif

Your coach should be working on the things that are holding you back at 3.5. It's not that FH.

If it's breaking down in a match tis likely a foot work and spacing issue.
 

TnsGuru

Professional
Your old FH technique shown on previous post looks very modern but you say you have timing issues? The picture above shows you with a closed almost neutral stance, do you have a pic using a semi to open stance as well? Perfect what you have but get a coach that can help you to do this.
Did you self teach your FH technique or were you taught initally by someone who advocated this?

Faster ball speeds give you less time to get your feet sideways that is why pros use different stances at different times depending on depth and ball speed. Netural when you have time, like a short ball and on faster balls, use your unit turn and open up your stance can help. Record yourself and compare your FH to the youtube video I have enclosed.

I have found if my FH goes off is that my feet aren't moving to set up properly and I end up muscling the ball. Relax and try not to hit hard yet. Technique first and speed will come when you feel comfortable again. Thinking too much about technique can also throw off the FH stroke. Racket head speed comes from being relaxed not rigid and tight.

The WTA FH has less technical movements and thus makes things easier to hit but I say keep what you have but get a coach who teaches the ATP style.
 

fundrazer

G.O.A.T.
Your coach should be working on the things that are holding you back at 3.5. It's not that FH.

If it's breaking down in a match tis likely a foot work and spacing issue.
I agree 100% here. ATP vs WTA forehand is not something to worry about at your current level.

I play with a few guys who are ~3.5 and the footwork is the biggest thing for them. They simply don't understand how to move vertically on the baseline, so they end up getting jammed to deep balls and/or can't play defense as effectively. One of the things I've kinda told them before is to watch how I move around the baseline. Always moving up/back/diagonally to try and put myself in the best position. Sure I make mistakes and my movement is far from perfect, but I do move decently enough.

The main thing you're going to find with stronger opponents/hitting partners as well is that you will probably have to back up fairly regularly if you're not used to how their ball comes through the court. This is one of the main issues for me, because my timing isn't there.
 

Dragy

Legend
I support keeping this. I’d try to look into your misses and figure out when they happen. You could go with higher loopier takeback which could enhance timing on some shots. Also support the footwork advice.
 

sureshs

Bionic Poster
He has one of the best looking FHs of all time. Id gladly compromise for that. Haha. I saw it in person. It was one of the greatest tennis moments of my life.

Agassi's forehand would not have been competitive against a heavy topspinner like Nadal. He lost to him twice.
 

Raul_SJ

G.O.A.T.
How old are you? I currently have 2 older students. One is just shy of 50 and the other is in the mid 60s. Both have shown significant improvement in their fhs since I started working with them. The 2 students had the same problem you have in the videos and gifs you’ve posted. Like you and most rec players, they arm the ball. It’s very hard to hit forehands with penetration and spin with good consistency if you are arming the ball.

Both guys wanted to and were willing to relearn the fh from scratch.

Agree that footwork and fitness is important. And arming is bad with any style, WTA or ATP.
My question is whether you are able to teach the ATP swing path to a 50 year old 3.5 if he requests trying it out?
As I mentioned, the ex-Bollitieri coach I talked to had no idea what an ATP swing path was.
 

Raul_SJ

G.O.A.T.
that is just not true. with good coaching and a true desire to learn, the ATP is a snap to learn and he is most of the way there if he is already keeping the racket on the hitting side. The flip is not always a major feature of the ATP fh and is seem at many various degrees of function with different players.

That is good to know. Lot of discussion on here that ATP swing path is too difficult to learn and 3.5 has no business learning it. I think it should be doable with the right coach and a student that finds the compact ATP swing easy to pick up (some may prefer the bigger WTA swing which is fine). Yes, fitness and footwork are important, but I don't see why that 3.5 footwork and fitness instruction cannot be incorporated with the ATP swing path.

But unfortunately many (most?) coaches are not experienced in teaching this ATP swing path.

The big difference between the ATP style and WTA style is the swing path, meaning that a lot of ladies tend break the the plane whereas you see on the ATP a lot of guys keep the racket on this side of the plane...​
I feel like the ATP style is more more about stretching and loading, kind of timing the body and the arm in the hand. WTA is bit more aggressive swing path in terms of the size of the swing and so there's a little more volatility with the WTA style, although you could argue there's a lot of volatility with the ATP style as well because there's such a such a timing element to it that the the lag and release has to be executed just right.
 

S&V-not_dead_yet

Talk Tennis Guru
Agassi's forehand would not have been competitive against a heavy topspinner like Nadal. He lost to him twice.

But by that time Agassi was on the decline and Nadal was on the rise. In fact, an on-the-rise style is precisely one antidote for a heavy TSer like Nadal.
 

Kobble

Hall of Fame
Agree that footwork and fitness is important. And arming is bad with any style, WTA or ATP.
My question is whether you are able to teach the ATP swing path to a 50 year old 3.5 if he requests trying it out?
As I mentioned, the ex-Bollitieri coach I talked to had no idea what an ATP swing path was.
That is kind of funny, because Philippoussis was using it like the current description for years, and he trained at Bolletieri. I think people, including myself, learned these concepts before it got the "ATP" label. I learned what the straight arm forehand was circa 2006. People were using racquet face down (a.k.a closed) for ages.

As for a 50 yo...
1) Well, I am 40 and I use elements of it.
2) It helps if their wrist still has good ROM. No limiting injuries.
3) No elbow injuries that prevent straightening.
4) Can keep their arm loose.

Ultimately, I feel like if you can swing a golf club right, you can do it.
 

Kobble

Hall of Fame
Thanks for the input guys, some very good points here. I think I wasn't fully aware of all the differences between the ATP and WTA forehand. I now think the coach wants to steer me more towards a Agassi/Kuerten type forehand rather than a full WTA one which I think I would be alright with. That change should be easier. I'll just discuss it with him next time.

Since some of you mentioned I could post a video of my current forehand I found one from last year. Shouldn't have changed much since then. However I should mention that this is from a session with a ball machine where I was very relaxed and this is also just an example where I timed the ball well, there are tons of examples where that wasn't the case. In a match the stroke is less fluid and more tense unfortunately.

w4Lq6JQ.gif
I wouldn't switch to a big loop for my primary forehand. I would refine what you have. Set up looks good. First move towards the ball is good. Contact is typical for a double bend.
 

Kobble

Hall of Fame
Very good for being self taught! :cool:
I never had any real lessons. I had a friend who was a low open level player, and we hit alot for years. He was trying to get me to switch to a closed face low to high as far back as 2001, but I never got the concept. Finally, got a camcorder in 2003, realized I barely went low to high and started learning how to do it easier. Probably the best decision I made with my game.
 

rushhr

Rookie
your fh looks pretty good already in my opinion. arm and wrist seems appropriately loose.

you could probably extend out towards your target a little more; currently you sweep across your body a little prematurely imo.

but i think you have a great foundation to your fh. i wouldn't make any big changes.
 

Raul_SJ

G.O.A.T.
Be a man.

It is a non-binary choice. Soureshs is gender fluid.

I myself identify as gender blender.
:rolleyes:

The complete list of 31 genders:
  1. Bi-gendered
  2. Cross-dresser
  3. Drag King
  4. Drag Queen
  5. Femme Queen
  6. Female-to-Male
  7. FTM
  8. Gender Bender
  9. Genderqueer
  10. Male-to-Female
  11. MTF
  12. Non-Op
  13. HIJRA
  14. Pangender
  15. Transexual/Transsexual
  16. Trans Person
  17. Woman
  18. Man
  19. Butch
  20. Two-Spirit
  21. Trans
  22. Agender
  23. Third Sex
  24. Gender Fluid
  25. Non-Binary Transgender
  26. Androgyne
  27. Gender Gifted
  28. Gender Blender
  29. Femme
  30. Person of Transgender Experience
  31. Androgynous
 
Until 5.5 WTA or ATP forehand doesn't matter. Sure at the pro level ATP has advantages but even at 5.0 both can work. I mean sharapova or Venus have WTA forehands but would easily beat male 5.0s.

So if you are an adult 3.5 your ceiling is probably 4.5 so the forehand type won't limit you.

However if you like to keep an ATP style you can do it, it just takes practice and correct execution.maybe you need another coach who has experience teaching that kind of shot.
 

golden chicken

Hall of Fame

I watch these videos and the thing that stands out to me most is how each style accelerates the racket from the slot to the contact point. The WTA style lends itself to more gradual acceleration and fixing the arm, wrist, and racket angles throughout the swing path decreases any variabilities that might lead to contact inconsistency. The ATP style looks to have more violent acceleration with all joints in motion during the swing to contact. I think you can certainly learn to hit consistently either way, but one lends itself towards consistency by reducing variables.

That being said, I'm a firm believer that most of what you do doesn't matter as long as the racket does what you want it to at contact. So, you can steal elements from both styles until you find what works for you.
 

dgold44

G.O.A.T.
I just had my first lesson after many years. I'm about 3.5 and my forehand has gone to **** in the last 1 or 2 years. When I hit the ball cleanly I get some decent topspin and power but it's very inconsistent. It's gone from a strength to a weakness. I have more of an ATP forehand in that while tacking the racket back it always stays on the right side. The coach described it as quite whippy. He says I could make it work but I'd have to invest a lot of time in practicing to get the timing right consistently. It works for the male pros because they's been hitting with it for thousands of hours. He now wants me to move towards a loopier takeback with a laid back wrist during the whole motion. I understand his reasoning, however I'm not quite sure if it wouldn't be better to invest more time in the current motion and try to work with what I have since it's probably very time consuming to change the whole motion. Maybe I'm just a bit too skeptical because I don't quite know the coach yet...

Is this coach pretty highly regarded ?
I would try it for 3 months as your current FH needs to be gutted and started over
 

Curiosity

Professional
I have more of an ATP forehand in that while tacking the racket back it always stays on the right side. The coach described it as quite whippy.

He now wants me to move towards a loopier takeback with a laid back wrist during the whole motion.

From your description, it is entirely possible that you don't have an accurate idea of what the essentials of a so-called ATP-style forehand are. It seems to me likely that you, like many players, don't examine a variety of ATP forehands to see what they have in common. The videos, and in super slo-mo, are widely (and often freely) available.

Two commenters suggested going to an Agassi-style forehand. His was in no way significantly different than a contemporary male pro forehand: I have a few of them open on my screen at the moment. What makes his swing look shorter or more compact is just this -he keeps a bent hitting elbow all the way through the stroke. If Agassi straightened his hitting arm during the swing down just before first forward motion of his hitting hand, his arm would be arranged (in terms of angle back and racquet face closure) much the same as Fed's or others (Nadal).

Agassi did include the keys to a contemporary forehand, as far as I'm concerned: he did a full unit turn 90º+; he took the racquet back with his wrist extended ca. 45º back, somewhat less than Fed et al, but not much; his last upper arm motion before lowering was to pull it back into tension; he used his off-side arm much as Fed et al do, extending it to the side high, then swinging it downward and left to give it momentum that he'll use at launch by pulling the elbow in, shorting the lever arm, which sends rotational momentum to the torso just when needed (he'll flip his off-side forearm up just going to contact, slowing torso rotation extremely briefly to send mo to the forearm).; Most importantly, perhaps, he launches the forward motion via upper torso rotation, which is critical to quickly accelerating the heavy upper hitting arm; just as he starts rotation he rolls the upper arm clockwise in the sholder socket, aka ESR (and yes, until it becomes second nature you do that intentionally).; exactly into contact he rolls his arm counterclockwise into contact, ISR.

If those are the things you do, then you're doing an ATP-style forehand, averaged across top players, just slower and worse. If you're not doing those things, you're not. That long string of "things to include" becomes one smooth natural feeling motion if you're doing it right, and you don't have to remember the bits once you get the feeling for a month or two. The off-arm is synchronized to the timing of first forward hitting hand motion, "announces it" and aids it.

I should announce my biases for you: I consider the "pat the dog" clue counter-productive, actually wrong. It's not what the pros are keying to, that's for sure. As you lower the racquet preparing for foreward launch, the point is two-fold: First, to get the hitting hand as low as needed for angle up to the ball that you intend, taking into account where the ESR will leave the racquet head. Second, to maintain a slower pace as you judge the incoming ball because, trust me, the instant you begin upper torso rotation, launching the arm while pushing a bit out with the hand as part of the ESR roll....everything happens very fast. That is perhaps the key beauty of the ATP forehand, that from the moment your brain says "go," and leads you to combine off-arm elbow pull-in with upper torso rotation, and instantly leading to ESR upper-hitting-arm roll, you'll be at contact in a flash. The initial torso rotation (the first 45º or so) can be made very fast, and transmits huge mo to the hitting arm/racquet.

Feel free to tell me which actions I listed in my third paragraph you think are not ATP, are left out by Federer or Nadal, or do not contribute something essential. Don't watch online tennis lessons. Watch the actual ATP players in action, slow-mo version. Do what they do (pick one player) as they do it in slow-mo until you've got the actions and the synchronization of off-arm and hitting arm actions. Really. Repeatedly, until the whole thing seems like natural smooth sequence. It's like watching a dance instructor. .......Otherwise, just listen to your new coach. There. The words are many but the actions they describe take less than a second once learned. My fingers are tired. Laugh. Best of luck.
 

ByeByePoly

G.O.A.T.
That is perhaps the key beauty of the ATP forehand, that from the moment your brain says "go," and leads you to combine off-arm elbow pull-in with upper torso rotation, and instantly leading to ESR upper-hitting-arm roll, you'll be at contact in a flash. The initial torso rotation (the first 45º or so) can be made very fast, and transmits huge mo to the hitting arm/racquet.

I have a question about the ATP FH moment of "GO".

Context: I have found with my 2hbh and FH ... if I use the guideline of "unit turned and rh up by the bounce" I am never (cough) late. I was looking at Fed FH video ... and on most rally balls his off hand had just released off the racquet with racquet up at the bounce. BUT ... this wasn't always the case ... on some balls very deep he would be at mid-drop at the bounce.

Obviously any timing tied to the bounce is not a "always" thing .. we get very slow balls, and whack bounces for those of you that play on that dirt :eek:. But as a rec player that has always had to work harder to not be late on FH side ... the unit turn and up at the bounce simply works for me. I figure you have watched enough pro ATP fh video to tell me what (if any) that moment of go is timed with. Bounce? A pro might not need these timing aids ... rec players often do.
 

sredna42

Hall of Fame
We would need to see the OP hit but most likely it's an internet tennis situation where the guy thinks he is hitting this beautiful, flowing ATP stroke laced with spin that he learned from Youtube and instead his feet are cement and his upper body looks like a T-Rex.

Have you been spying on me?
 

Curiosity

Professional
I have a question about the ATP FH moment of "GO".

Context: I have found with my 2hbh and FH ... if I use the guideline of "unit turned and rh up by the bounce" I am never (cough) late. I was looking at Fed FH video ... and on most rally balls his off hand had just released off the racquet with racquet up at the bounce. BUT ... this wasn't always the case ... on some balls very deep he would be at mid-drop at the bounce.

Obviously any timing tied to the bounce is not a "always" thing .. we get very slow balls, and whack bounces for those of you that play on that dirt :eek:. But as a rec player that has always had to work harder to not be late on FH side ... the unit turn and up at the bounce simply works for me. I figure you have watched enough pro ATP fh video to tell me what (if any) that moment of go is timed with. Bounce? A pro might not need these timing aids ... rec players often do.

That's an interesting point. It goes without saying that top pros have both great ability and the required experience to judge the speed and trajectory of an incoming ball. That's why I said "from the moment the brain says 'go'," not necessarily from the bounce. It is a big advantage, though, to be able to hold off on UB rotation until the bounce: That allows a better read on the speed and spin, the trajectory of the ball's rise. The best pros seem regularly to start the lowering (or drop) and the off-arm leftward swing from "pointed toward the sideline" before the bounce if the incoming ball appears very fast. They have a skill which rec players often don't, and that is to estimate the trajectory of the ball as it comes up from the bounce. After all, they're going to swing very fast, and they're going to contact the ball where it will be a few milliseconds later. In point of fact they have to commit to an estimated contact point (approximately) by the time they launch forward rotation. They can adjust a small amount if the ball is actually higher than expected, using very heavy ISR, simple lift, or steepening of the pull-out angle. If the ball ends up lower, the pro's in trouble, so they seem to err on the "guess it'll rise low" side.

Obviously getting the racquet lowered has to come early if a player intends to hit a half-volley, or take the ball very early in its rise, or if he's caught inside the baseline on a very deep ball.

What's a rec player to do? There are options, aren't there? He can stay a bit deep, but be fit enough and skilled enough with footwork to move in fast on a surprisingly short ball. He can take the racquet back the same ATP way, but lower as to the racquet and not quite as far back as to UB rotation back, the "emergency" swing compacting. The key with the shortening bit is this: The hitting upper arm still must be raised and pulled back against the shoulder joint if possible, so that the hitting arm still gets launched forward by upper body rotation. Without that the value of the swing form is lost. (There's always chipping or slicing.)

The "lowering" or "drop" is not the launch. A rec player can learn to start lowering the racquet before the bounce, as long as his leg-hips-and-torso launch awaits the bounce. Getting too low can be a problem if the ball rises surprisingly high, but from a low racquet head those can be hit...if the player is skilled. I'd avoid overdoing the early lowering, though, until the overall form is grooved.

If a rec player is playing similarly skilled opponents, and has reasonably fast feet, waiting for the bounce with an approximation of a full ATP forehand shouldn't be a problem. That assumes he's grooved the thing sufficiently. (I'd rather just call it a "modern" forehand.) For that matter, it is clearly better to learn the full motion, at least to the level described in #79 above, at an early stage. This provides the chance to groove it against opponents and practice partners who hit slower lower-spin balls. I agree with all those who say "you have to get the motion to a point where you have a visual image of it, a point where the entire motion has become a matter of feeling, not thinking." That's another argument for learning the motion and its details early (or, laugh, "soon"). It takes time to "forget the words and remember the feeling." (Opinions may vary. I'm just one voice in the matter.)
 
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Curiosity

Professional
Thanks for the input guys, some very good points here. I think I wasn't fully aware of all the differences between the ATP and WTA forehand. I now think the coach wants to steer me more towards a Agassi/Kuerten type forehand rather than a full WTA one which I think I would be alright with. That change should be easier. I'll just discuss it with him next time.

Since some of you mentioned I could post a video of my current forehand I found one from last year. Shouldn't have changed much since then. However I should mention that this is from a session with a ball machine where I was very relaxed and this is also just an example where I timed the ball well, there are tons of examples where that wasn't the case. In a match the stroke is less fluid and more tense unfortunately.

w4Lq6JQ.gif

"Everybody has an opinion...." so here's mine, upon seeing your swing: Small changes could help a lot. Perhaps you could try them without abandoning the basic motion? In my opinion, you are swinging the off-side arm leftward much too late and too gently. Watch the synchronization of a good pro in slo-mo. The point of that arm swing is to give it momentum as you lower the racquet. That arm should be at least passing "pointing at the net" by UB rotation time. Pull that off-side elbow in smoothly but vigorously just at the point when you will launch UB rotation. The pull-in will boost your torso rotation speed, and will provide a timing aid: Pull in the off-side elbow and extend your hitting side leg to power the UB rotation. The off-side arm has a serious bit to play, which is why virtually every good pro uses it the same way, though smooth vs. abrupt pull in depends on need, speed of play.

Good things? You've got ESR into launch, and ISR up to contact. Your hitting hand motion at launch is good, pushing out a bit as you go for ESR and the pull-out.

Needs work? Your hitting arm gets ahead of your torso rotation too soon. Let the UB/shoulder power the arm a bit longer. Feel it. Also: Lift your hitting upper arm away from your side, up to the side, as you do the unit turn. Do not save that as something to do later. I recommend watching Fed's unit turn in detail, simply because it's very clean, and very available in slo-mo. Having the upper hitting arm well away from your side (watch the pro of your choice) is key to locking the shoulder joint a bit, which makes driving the hitting arm by torso rotation...much more effective. If this is new to you, experiment off the court. Try (gently!) to swing your hitting arm backward when it is close to your body. Easy. Now raise your hitting upper arm well up from the side, perhaps 80º up. Now gently try to swing it backward. You're not going to get far. That locking is a key part of efficiently transferring upper body rotational momentum to the hitting arm. You only need that locking for the first instants of forward rotation: The ESR of the hitting arm will take over the locking job for the next instants.

Well, there. That's enough. Don't abandon what you have! Just take the two suggestions seriously, and at least give them a try, starting with moderate-pace shadow swings at first, then with a very cooperative hitting partner or ball machine next.

EDIT Addition:
First: About getting the hitting upper arm away from the side and keeping it there until ESR is taken: I'll link two clips, one of Fed, one of Rafa. The Fed one is slow and casual hitting, which is "great" hitting for a rec player. Notice this for both Fed and Rafa -they both tilt their UB, shoulder, down a bit in the hitting side direction as they launch forward motion. This isn't for some "rise extra to the hit" bit. It is to allow them to keep the hitting upper arm away from the side, shoulder semi-locked, to get the benefit of shoulder semi-locking in the first instants of rotation.
Second: In the Fed casual hit, notice how he times the off-side arm swing and then elbow pull-in. The swing starts slow, accelerates, and the elbow is pulled in fully exactly timed to the hitting side launch. The final instants to pull-in are fast, vigorous. The torso rotational momentum generated by that swing and pull-in counters the drag of the hitting upper arm into launch, and as a bonus provides a timing aid. Done right, the off-arm use makes the launch into rotation, swing, feel very natural, the whole upper body and arms working smoothly together. Well, there! Laugh.
JMV/
 
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ByeByePoly

G.O.A.T.
That's an interesting point. It goes without saying that top pros have both great ability and the required experience to judge the speed and trajectory of an incoming ball. That's why I said "from the moment the brain says 'go'," not necessarily from the bounce. It is a big advantage, though, to be able to hold off on UB rotation until the bounce: That allows a better read on the speed and spin, the trajectory of the ball's rise. The best pros seem regularly to start the lowering (or drop) and the off-arm leftward swing from "pointed toward the sideline" before the bounce if the incoming ball appears very fast. They have a skill which rec players often don't, and that is to estimate the trajectory of the ball as it comes up from the bounce. After all, they're going to swing very fast, and they're going to contact the ball where it will be a few milliseconds later. In point of fact they have to commit to an estimated contact point (approximately) by the time they launch forward rotation. They can adjust a small amount if the ball is actually higher than expected, using very heavy ISR, simple lift, or steepening of the pull-out angle. If the ball ends up lower, the pro's in trouble, so they seem to err on the "guess it'll rise low" side.

Obviously getting the racquet lowered has to come early if a player intends to hit a half-volley, or take the ball very early in its rise, or if he's caught inside the baseline on a very deep ball.

What's a rec player to do? There are options, aren't there? He can stay a bit deep, but be fit enough and skilled enough with footwork to move in fast on a surprisingly short ball. He can take the racquet back the same ATP way, but lower as to the racquet and not quite as far back as to UB rotation back, the "emergency" swing compacting. The key with the shortening bit is this: The hitting upper arm still must be raised and pulled back against the shoulder joint if possible, so that the hitting arm still gets launched forward by upper body rotation. Without that the value of the swing form is lost. (There's always chipping or slicing.)

The "lowering" or "drop" is not the launch. A rec player can learn to start lowering the racquet before the bounce, as long as his leg-hips-and-torso launch awaits the bounce. Getting too low can be a problem if the ball rises surprisingly high, but from a low racquet head those can be hit...if the player is skilled. I'd avoid overdoing the early lowering, though, until the overall form is grooved.

If a rec player is playing similarly skilled opponents, and has reasonably fast feet, waiting for the bounce with an approximation of a full ATP forehand shouldn't be a problem. That assumes he's grooved the thing sufficiently. (I'd rather just call it a "modern" forehand.) For that matter, it is clearly better to learn the full motion, at least to the level described in #79 above, at an early stage. This provides the chance to groove it against opponents and practice partners who hit slower lower-spin balls. I agree with all those who say "you have to get the motion to a point where you have a visual image of it, a point where the entire motion has become a matter of feeling, not thinking." That's another argument for learning the motion and its details early (or, laugh, "soon"). It takes time to "forget the words and remember the feeling." (Opinions may vary. I'm just one voice in the matter.)


Very good as usual (y)

Let me give you some more context (just talking fh)

Bounce - hit:

- I don't do/think this playing ... but should more with fh. I am seldom late on bh side
- I play tight to baseline
- I do better with rhythm of unit turn just in time rather than early and hold it. On 2hbh not really an option ... unit turn before bounce no good. I can go early on fh ... but prefer at bounce like fh
- so on fh ... unit turn by bounce, racquet up
- racquet up until my "go" moment ... which I describe as trying to take a hd snapshot of the ball and think "hit". Everything is computed/committed at that point ... probably more a hd video from "hit" to "contact" . That is how I think the process works ... not claiming good skills at watching the ball
- I totally expected the fh timing to bounce for me would be "while dropping" ... even briefly thought slot ... thinking the later commit/go point the better. Miserable failure ... not even close ... my "go visual snapshot" point is top of the backswing. By top ... I mean at least most of unit turn ... and racquet up. I don't care if I add a bit more unit turn at the go moment ... Goffin does that on his fh.

So for me ... my commitment point is before drop, and obviously before forward rotation:

"In point of fact they have to commit to an estimated contact point (approximately) by the time they launch forward rotation."

I am almost never late with BHs ... up and turn at bounce ... good to go. FHs is where it will show up in a match ... just lazy habits mainly. But before you can have a good habit ... you have to define the habit.
 

mbm0912

Hall of Fame
It is a non-binary choice. Soureshs is gender fluid.

I myself identify as gender blender.
:rolleyes:

The complete list of 31 genders:
  1. Bi-gendered
  2. Cross-dresser
  3. Drag King
  4. Drag Queen
  5. Femme Queen
  6. Female-to-Male
  7. FTM
  8. Gender Bender
  9. Genderqueer
  10. Male-to-Female
  11. MTF
  12. Non-Op
  13. HIJRA
  14. Pangender
  15. Transexual/Transsexual
  16. Trans Person
  17. Woman
  18. Man
  19. Butch
  20. Two-Spirit
  21. Trans
  22. Agender
  23. Third Sex
  24. Gender Fluid
  25. Non-Binary Transgender
  26. Androgyne
  27. Gender Gifted
  28. Gender Blender
  29. Femme
  30. Person of Transgender Experience
  31. Androgynous
Genderless Alien?
 

ChaelAZ

G.O.A.T.
Thanks for the input guys, some very good points here. I think I wasn't fully aware of all the differences between the ATP and WTA forehand. I now think the coach wants to steer me more towards a Agassi/Kuerten type forehand rather than a full WTA one which I think I would be alright with. That change should be easier. I'll just discuss it with him next time.

Since some of you mentioned I could post a video of my current forehand I found one from last year. Shouldn't have changed much since then. However I should mention that this is from a session with a ball machine where I was very relaxed and this is also just an example where I timed the ball well, there are tons of examples where that wasn't the case. In a match the stroke is less fluid and more tense unfortunately.

w4Lq6JQ.gif


Post up more video with several strokes and movement under pressure or in reactive situations.
 

mcs1970

Hall of Fame
First off, I am impressed that the coach is aware of ATP vs WTA style.

I recently talked to a coach (over the phone) about possibly taking a lesson. The guy worked as a coach at Bollitieri Academy in the 1990s. Was a ranked 5.5 player. Age about 60.

I asked if he could teach the ATP forehand as described by Rick Macci and others, compact swing, Pat The Dog, etc.

He said he had no idea what I was talking about.

:(

Was the coach @Wise one ?
 

zaph

Professional
OK, I have got to ask, what is the difference between an ATP forehand and a WTA forehand? Is there a real difference or is it one those internet things?
 

ptuanminh

Hall of Fame
Agassi could never handle the Nadal spin and bounce by trying to take it on the rise.
Agassi was already in his 30s when Nadal came to the scene.
How about Davydenko, he played against Nadal a lot more. He also hit the ball fairly early. And i say, except on clay, he handled Nadal topspin just fine.
 

rrortiz5

Rookie
I may be in the minority but after falling into the youtube hole time and time again researching (absent minded watching) I've come to notice that a lot of the pros started their forehand as a "WTA" forehand up until around age 14. Even Nadal in the Les Petit's vid against gasquet has his 12 year old WTA forehand. I don't think it'll harm you and maybe even help you feel the slow better. My 2c
 

sureshs

Bionic Poster
Agassi was already in his 30s when Nadal came to the scene.
How about Davydenko, he played against Nadal a lot more. He also hit the ball fairly early. And i say, except on clay, he handled Nadal topspin just fine.

There is no "except on clay." Clay is one of the 2 original tennis surfaces.
 

TnsGuru

Professional
OK, I have got to ask, what is the difference between an ATP forehand and a WTA forehand? Is there a real difference or is it one those internet things?
In a nutshell, the ATP style (male dominant) the FH preparation stays on the dominant R/L side of the body while the WTA incorporates a larger backswing and drifts behind the body. Think Halep and Sharapova WTA, Federer and Nadal ATP as far as styles go.
 

NLBwell

Legend
First off, I am impressed that the coach is aware of ATP vs WTA style.

I recently talked to a coach (over the phone) about possibly taking a lesson. The guy worked as a coach at Bollitieri Academy in the 1990s. Was a ranked 5.5 player. Age about 60.

I asked if he could teach the ATP forehand as described by Rick Macci and others, compact swing, Pat The Dog, etc.

He said he had no idea what I was talking about.

:(

Maybe those descriptors are not important.
 

Dragy

Legend
Ok I’m in a mood to publish a column on ATP/WTA forehands 8-B

First of all, let’s make an imaginary trip to a practice court, where some typical WTA player and ATP player are during their relaxed mini :X3: tennis rally. I bet, you barely see a difference: both use compact backswing, after a moderate loop lower their hitting arm behind the ball, mildly uncoil to send arm and racquet forward and rotate their racquet heads into a WW brush. That’s enough to hit the ball accross ~40ft between the lines, lift it over the net with some margin and curve into the box with topspin. That’s the basics toned down to the lowest level of power.

Now let’s call our players to move them back behind the baseline and further on, to ramp up the power of their FHs so that they do damage to the opponent. Let’s also make them consider various challenges by incoming ball, including fast deep exploding shots. What they need now? Produce more RHS, do it reliably, and in some cases, do it really fast, in a short timeframe.

Between players we can observe various solutions applied to those challenges. Both players are absolutely aware they need to use their full body from ground up, rotate the torso to produce required arm and racquet speed. The key element being ability to transfer that generated power to the “end user”, past a couple of questionably reliable links. Let’s consider shoulder: we have chest muscles to hold the arm while torso rotates, which have their limits in terms of how much resistance they can provide reliably. So what we do to build up racquet speed relying on contracted chest muscles to deliver momentum further? We take more time and more room to execute acceleration. Hence getting arm further back and performing arm swing on top of torso rotation. Torso rotates moderately fast, arm comes forward as torso rotates, accumulated speed is racquet head speed. Can be used successfully? Absolutely, given it’s enough time to set up and commit early to the contact location.

Another player considers facing heavy incoming balls, fast, spinny, exploding off the court and pushing him back if he wants to hit in a strike zone. He’s been seeking for a way to hit back with shorter preparation, with later commitment to the contact location - when hitting on the rise with less clear expectations on the bounce. What’s his options, apart from producing less RHS due to shorter swing?

Glorious nature, he’s furnished to use shoulder link extremely efficient! He puts his arm into ESR and “locks” it to follow torso rotation so fast it can rotate. Stretched muscles of shoulder socket, including pec and lat “twisted” around the upper arm support consistent posture. So now it’s ok to accelerate fully in a brief amount of time, and then pass the built up momentum to the arm propelling out, forward, up and across, right through contact.

Do you see female players lift off the ground as frequently as male ones do? Just consider the idea that when you build up same torso rotation speed (which is powered by leg drive) in a longer amount of time, gravity beats upward component. If you push vigorously, there’s no other way but to get in the air. My belief is, the main benefit of using ATP aka Modern style FH is achieved thanks to that strong linkage between torso and upper arm during main acceleration phase, and allows faster execution with ability to better handle fast rising balls and (through) later commitment to the contact location.
 

ByeByePoly

G.O.A.T.
And their lightsaber skills are totes deft...

giphy.gif

The one with the blue lightsaber is using a double pump ATP lightsaber swing. The red one must be the one on the period, because saber tries to go behind the back. Also ... red one is crying and cussing out her coach.
 
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