4.0 easier than crazy 3.5? Hlep me!

[Winky]

First off I'm a 3.5 now but have only been playing for 2 months. Had a 20-year layoff, played when I was a kid non-competitively. I have natural athletic ability and was captain of my HS golf team and was a little league all star. I want to be solid 4.0 by the middle of next year and play 2x a week and video myself and watch instructional vids. To me, form is everything. I spent thousands of hours learning the golf swing so I know how to learn the right way.

Aaanyway.. so I've been playing with three partners. One is a girl who really sucks--a 3.0. Another is a guy who played some when he was a kid and has weird technique but when he gets the ball over the net it's powerful--a 3.5. And the newest is a girl who is a total baseliner but has a very consistent stroke and can run me back and forth on the court with solid strokes and had some instruction when she was younger but hasn't played in awhile--a 4.0.

I was reading this thread about a guy "doomed to be a 3.5"
http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=256740

and was struck by some great responses, such as this post:

http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showpost.php?p=3336067&postcount=2

and this one:

http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showpost.php?p=3336752&postcount=15

Basically they said that 3.5s are a strange breed, which was a relief because I thought I was the only one who thought so.

And specifically the second one says:

...those players who first learn and work within more advanced strokes seldom stay in the 3.0 or the 3.5 levels very long.

In fact, they often can be seen not winning tournaments at these levels before moving on to higher levels. Because they are working within more advanced patterns they often forgo the 3.5 levels since they encounter a wide range of players; from hackers and pushers to sandbaggers and others.

This 3.5 guy I play with has terrible form.. serves and volleys with an eastern forehand, runs to the net on practically every shot.. yet manages to outplay me surprisingly often.

I just don't understand. Playing with a 3.5 is like playing with a crazed ape who hits it totally wrong but pulls out bizarre genius shots which confound me, UNLIKE the 4.0. It's like the 3.5 puts a curse on me and my play goes to **** when I'm playing with him.

I have a much easier time playing with the 4.0. My play ramps up to meet hers and we have great rallies. If I'm getting my serves in I can go toe-to-toe with her. She'll win but it'll be 6-3 6-4.

OTOH, with the 3.5 it's like there are two shots per rally and half the time he wins and half the time I do. I'll usually beat him but it'll go something like 6-1, 5-7, 6-2 or something weird.

If I'm looking to improve and have natural athletic skills from my youth, should I stay away from 3.5s and below? It's like playing golf with a hacker who manages to bounce the balls off trees into the fairway and shank chips into the hole. Enraging. I don't understand this 3.5 guy. He doesn't video himself, doesn't read up on technique, just gets out there and bashes the ball like crazy YET plays shockingly well when he's on. I can't get my mind around it.

And the worst part about him is that he tries to give me advice on how to play; he doesn't even realize that his technique is wack.

 

[DeShaun]

Fascinating question. Can it be answered yes or no? Like to hear what FalloutJr thinks, or thehustler. Those guys seem like concise analysts. My guess is that there must be some value to playing 3.5s that one wanting to become 4.0 cannot afford to pass over.

 

[GetBetterer]

I personally don't think you should.

In a different thread from the one you linked, we discussed people who use nothing but the moonball which ends up being a severely high ball that I think HunterST was talking about that he struggled with.

For a lot of people, this isn't natural but it has to become a part of your game to be able to defeat even the weirdest of players.

Over here, there's a guy who does nothing but slice backhands, and he tries to win with his forehand shots (which I consider counter punching) so you have to develop different strategies sometimes.

Maybe your strategy the way it is now works against that 4.0, but won't work against the 3.5 no matter what the strokes.

 

[Ken Honecker]

This 3.5 guy I play with has terrible form.. serves and volleys with an eastern forehand, runs to the net on practically every shot.. yet manages to outplay me surprisingly often.

I just don't understand. Playing with a 3.5 is like playing with a crazed ape who hits it totally wrong but pulls out bizarre genius shots which confound me, UNLIKE the 4.0. It's like the 3.5 puts a curse on me and my play goes to **** when I'm playing with him.

OTOH, with the 3.5 it's like there are two shots per rally and half the time he wins and half the time I do. I'll usually beat him but it'll go something like 6-1, 5-7, 6-2 or something weird.

If I'm looking to improve and have natural athletic skills from my youth, should I stay away from 3.5s and below? It's like playing golf with a hacker who manages to bounce the balls off trees into the fairway and shank chips into the hole. Enraging. I don't understand this 3.5 guy. He doesn't video himself, doesn't read up on technique, just gets out there and bashes the ball like crazy YET plays shockingly well when he's on. I can't get my mind around it.

And the worst part about him is that he tries to give me advice on how to play; he doesn't even realize that his technique is wack.

Jeez if sounds like you were playing me 35 years ago. I didn't switch to conti grip on my serve until last year when I joined the board and heard all the wonders of pronation and still use Eastern for volleys. Also I was a total S/V player running ape **** to the net on everthing which does bother a lot of people. Heck I even golf the way you bemoan with a smattering of actual shots interspiced with a blast through the trees and a slice way out into the hinterlands.

Now I don't know squat about USTA levels except what I read here but gather that most of the world is 3.5 which is spotty and otherworldly as reguards to footwork, stokes, and everything else. There is no "proper" way for a rec player to play. Certainly there are more effecient ways to do things but generally a player develops the capacity to get a lot out of whatever style he has been employing for a length of years and very few have the time and commitment to make drastic changes.

 

[86golf]

Are you a girl or a guy? You mention playing a 3.0 girl and 4.0 girl and a 3.5 guy. Which league are you trying to play 4.0 men's or 4.0 ladies? I think it matters bc in men's tennis esp 4.0 and above, the serve is a weapon and your return game will determine if you have good chances to break. Ladies tend to get into more rally's, from what I see in USTA league tennis. I'd focus on your serve and return game as this alone can take you far. Also, a 3.5 guy will likely beat a 4.0 lady most of the time.

 

[larry10s]

real quick. you play better with the 4.0 beacause they can rally and you develop a rhythm.
the "goofy "3.5's that have been that way for a long time have mastered their "style". until you can beat them you are not better. sorry to say.
your lack of experience is partly why you lose .you havent hit the ball enough times to "master" your strokes. if you strive to play the right way from the begiinning your ultimate landing spot will be higher than the goofy ones.

 

[ProgressoR]

^^ correct, i have one guy who schools me all the time, he is very unorthodox, every single stoke would make a coach wince, but he is very effective at this level. More experienced guys beat him with their mor orthodox games, i dont have the experience yet, but i can beat the guys who beat him because I am used to these orthodox guys.

As long as he beats me he is better, end of story. So I am kind of developing 2 things, one is my general game and strokes and strategy and experience against "normal" guys, and then trying to beat this other guy.

Both important aims, in my view

 

[tennis boy]

maybe try lobbing him?

 

[Kyle7286]

Just my 2 cents....

As stated above, these unorthidox tennis players have mastered their bizzarre technique which will only keep them in the 3.0 - 3.5 range for the rest of their life.

You're goal (if you're really wanting to move up) is to become more consistent in your game to the point that these bizzare/unorthidox game styles have no effect on you.

For example in my 3.0 league, i used to have issues against this player who kept pushing the ball and had it land short every time.

Now i know how to deal with short balls and those types of players i beat them in 2 sets.

 

[Winky]

Are you a girl or a guy? You mention playing a 3.0 girl and 4.0 girl and a 3.5 guy. Which league are you trying to play 4.0 men's or 4.0 ladies?

I'm a guy and I don't play in any leagues (yet). This is just friends I play with in informal matches because I'm not nearly at a place I want to be to start competing. I'm wondering if I should stop playing with the 3.5 because he hits such bizarre shots that I can't get "normal" practice in. When I play with the 4.0 I at least get some rallies going, but with the 3.5 it's a serve, my return, and then some crazed shot by him that either goes way out or miraculously hits a line for a winner.

 

[Winky]

So I am kind of developing 2 things, one is my general game and strokes and strategy and experience against "normal" guys, and then trying to beat this other guy.

That makes sense but how do you develop two styles of play? Or is it that if you get good enough these weird shots won't even bother you?

Here is an example of one of our typical "rallies:"

-His first serve, huge but in the net
-Second serve, a tiny dink that I have to sprint forward to get to.
-Forehand from me
-A high lob from him that manages to catch my baseline
-running backhand from me, he's rushed the net by now
-shank from him that barely goes over the net, I'm way back in my court so I can't get to it

I don't even know of a strategy that could defeat that. How do you play for shanks and moonballs that happen to catch the line? How do you play for balls that hit the net and dribble over?

The only thing I can think of is to get such a good serve and return that basically I win every point the first time I hit the ball.

 

[Kyle7286]

Think about it.... How many Loopers/Dinkers .. etc.. do you see in the Majors? I can't think of any.

These weird style players only make it as far as 4.0 ever.... once you hone your skills more, your play style will destroy them b/c you'll be much more patient in your shots and your MENTAL game is key against them.. dont let their shots get to your head and stay focused one point at a time.

 

[Winky]

yeah that's probably true. I just can't help but think, "Here I am watching videos of pros over and over in slow-mo, watching videos of myself over and over in slow-mo, reading forums, watching training vids, demoing racquets, learning about the different grips and overgrips and strings, spending hours on court and at the wall correcting my form.... and here's this guy with a borrowed racquet who looks like an epileptic chimpanzee on the court and still can takes sets off me, and then he tells me that I shouldn't be serving with the correct grip (continental, a term he doesn't even know) but that I should serve with his wrong grip (eastern forehand).

 

[user92626]

And specifically the second one says:


Quote:
...those players who first learn and work within more advanced strokes seldom stay in the 3.0 or the 3.5 levels very long.

In fact, they often can be seen not winning tournaments at these levels before moving on to higher levels. Because they are working within more advanced patterns they often forgo the 3.5 levels since they encounter a wide range of players; from hackers and pushers to sandbaggers and others.


This 3.5 guy I play with has terrible form.. serves and volleys with an eastern forehand, runs to the net on practically every shot.. yet manages to outplay me surprisingly often.

I just don't understand. Playing with a 3.5 is like playing with a crazed ape who hits it totally wrong but pulls out bizarre genius shots which confound me, UNLIKE the 4.0. It's like the 3.5 puts a curse on me and my play goes to **** when I'm playing with him.

I have a much easier time playing with the 4.0. My play ramps up to meet hers and we have great rallies. If I'm getting my serves in I can go toe-to-toe with her. She'll win but it'll be 6-3 6-4.

First of all, there's no such thing as "advanced strokes" or whatnot. A stroke either good fundamentals which is limitless in potential in the long run or it does not. The sooner you accept this concept the sooner you progress: that is, we recreational players can play like pro's but minus their power and athleticism.

It's easy to understand that playing against 4.0 sometimes feels easier than against a lower level who's determined to win by all means. A 4.0 or anyone who wants to go up are trying hard to play by the book -- that's how they go up --, but they don't quite have all the tools to overcome all obstacles but they wouldn't resort to playing by all means, either. When a 4.0 or higher loses to an unorthodox lower level, it's usually because he commits too many UEs. If you want to win and an easier time, you can break all rules and dink and pat using sheer fitness. That's alot easier than consistently getting into form and whipping shots hard from all positions.

 

[DeShaun]

That makes sense but how do you develop two styles of play? Or is it that if you get good enough these weird shots won't even bother you?

Here is an example of one of our typical "rallies:"

-His first serve, huge but in the net
-Second serve, a tiny dink that I have to sprint forward to get to.
-Forehand from me
-A high lob from him that manages to catch my baseline
-running backhand from me, he's rushed the net by now
-shank from him that barely goes over the net, I'm way back in my court so I can't get to it

I don't even know of a strategy that could defeat that. How do you play for shanks and moonballs that happen to catch the line? How do you play for balls that hit the net and dribble over?

The only thing I can think of is to get such a good serve and return that basically I win every point the first time I hit the ball.

Try this: assume he will dink his second serve, so move inside your baseline. instead of hitting flat or with topspin, return his serve with gentle but deep slice that lands low near his feet. dont watch your return but sprint back to your baseline to set up for his next shot. feed him enough low balls and most of them will come back high...one of these is bound to land really short on your side, and the one that does is the one you are bound to have the best chance of driving flat or with a little topspin, under control, to one of his corners. once you have driven it to a corner, stay in near the net and prepare for your chance to end the point, by splitstepping and anticipating either an overhead putaway or an angled volley as your next (and last) shot of the point.

 

[decades]

it doesn't surprise me that you are having more trouble with a 3.5 male than a 4.0 female. that seems utterly normal.

 

[larry10s]

^^ correct, i have one guy who schools me all the time, he is very unorthodox, every single stoke would make a coach wince, but he is very effective at this level. More experienced guys beat him with their mor orthodox games, i dont have the experience yet, but i can beat the guys who beat him because I am used to these orthodox guys.

As long as he beats me he is better, end of story. So I am kind of developing 2 things, one is my general game and strokes and strategy and experience against "normal" guys, and then trying to beat this other guy.

Both important aims, in my view

both goals will come together. if you learn an advanced foundationyou will beat these guys.i'm now 4.0 heading towards 4.5. i started at age 49 and am now 57. heres how i put it
you are bad at being good
right now they wre good at being bad
as you get better and better at being good you will beat those that are good at being bad
jmho

 

[Winky]

First of all, there's no such thing as "advanced strokes" or whatnot. A stroke either good fundamentals which is limitless in potential in the long run or it does not. The sooner you accept this concept the sooner you progress: that is, we recreational players can play like pro's but minus their power and athleticism.

I think that's the point of the guy who wrote that. He wrote two books and gives speeches on that very subject, because a lot of pros still teach low-level players to use one method (like an eastern foregrip on the serve) and then switch "when they become better." He argues in his books that that's a damn silly way to teach people.

Of course most 3.5s have simply never been coached, and apparently haven't bothered to learn the fundamentals or the "right" way to play.

I remember when I was growing up and learning golf, I used to argue with my coach when he'd tell me I was doing it "wrong." He'd say, "The golf swing is the most analyzed series of body movements in human history. We know by now what not to do. So don't do it that way."

 

[aimr75]

Even in practice, hitting with players at a lower level, the same level and higher level..

the lower level player is inconsistent, hits short, long, high balls, low balls, mistimes etc and is harder to deal with than a player at a similar level who can hit a more predictable shot and is more consistent

Hitting with the higher level (5.0+) player is a world of hurt period

 

[MNPlayer]

it doesn't surprise me that you are having more trouble with a 3.5 male than a 4.0 female. that seems utterly normal.

Good point. A 4.0 female is probably roughly equivalent to 3.5 guy or less, in singles anyway.

Since you have been playing such a short time, you haven't had time to get used to playing all the different styles out there. And there are a number of crazy ways to play and win at 3.5-4.0. You just need to make it a point to play as many different people as possible and learn to impose your game on them, no matter what crazy stuff they do. Unfortunately, I don't think watching pro tennis is a particularly useful way to learn this because pros all play such a high-level game.

 

[mightyrick]

I just don't understand. Playing with a 3.5 is like playing with a crazed ape who hits it totally wrong but pulls out bizarre genius shots which confound me, UNLIKE the 4.0. It's like the 3.5 puts a curse on me and my play goes to **** when I'm playing with him.

I've been playing tennis only a little over a year. I'm now a 4.0. Hopefully, I can get to 4.5 soon -- although it is getting tough. I absolutely hate playing 3.5s in my ladder. In my experience, 3.5s are much more scrappy and IMPROVISE much better than 4.0s. To me, that's the killer... improvisation.

And I used to be one of those improvising 3.5s. My forehand is OKAY at best. But I have a great slice forehand that I can place anywhere at varied pace, I have an extremely good lob, and my first serve is around 80-100mph.

I have found it much easier to beat "machine" 4.0s than "improvising" 3.5s. 3.5s have a TON of pushers and retrievers. 4.0 not so much. So I am not surprised a bit by your experience.

So now, when I play a 3.5 (or even a 3.0)... I let them try to bring the game to me... rather than being uber-aggressive. YMMV, but it works well for me.

 

[Winky]

Makes sense. Next time, I'm going to try to essentially be a pusher with my 3.5 opponent. If the rally lasts longer than about 4 shots he tends to hit it wild anyway. I win just as many points dropping it back into the middle of his court as I do trying to hit winners. In fact, I probably win more that way.

Yes, that's it. I will beat his crazy inconsistency with my own consistency.

 

[Blake0]

I think you should play against the 3.5 hackers and pushers and such. It helps work on your mentality and tactics in a different way. It also forces you to execute points and strategies successfully in a somewhat consistent manner. Those hackers and pushers will make but a few mistakes, compared to the 4.0 who may play a more "normal" game that makes more errors. It's worth the experience.

 

[0d1n]

First of all, there's no such thing as "advanced strokes" or whatnot. A stroke either good fundamentals which is limitless in potential in the long run or it does not. The sooner you accept this concept the sooner you progress: that is, we recreational players can play like pro's but minus their power and athleticism.

It's easy to understand that playing against 4.0 sometimes feels easier than against a lower level who's determined to win by all means. A 4.0 or anyone who wants to go up are trying hard to play by the book -- that's how they go up --, but they don't quite have all the tools to overcome all obstacles but they wouldn't resort to playing by all means, either. When a 4.0 or higher loses to an unorthodox lower level, it's usually because he commits too many UEs. If you want to win and an easier time, you can break all rules and dink and pat using sheer fitness. That's alot easier than consistently getting into form and whipping shots hard from all positions.

True

Even in practice, hitting with players at a lower level, the same level and higher level..

the lower level player is inconsistent, hits short, long, high balls, low balls, mistimes etc and is harder to deal with than a player at a similar level who can hit a more predictable shot and is more consistent

Hitting with the higher level (5.0+) player is a world of hurt period

True

I think you should play against the 3.5 hackers and pushers and such. It helps work on your mentality and tactics in a different way. It also forces you to execute points and strategies successfully in a somewhat consistent manner. Those hackers and pushers will make but a few mistakes, compared to the 4.0 who may play a more "normal" game that makes more errors. It's worth the experience.

True

Makes sense. Next time, I'm going to try to essentially be a pusher with my 3.5 opponent. If the rally lasts longer than about 4 shots he tends to hit it wild anyway. I win just as many points dropping it back into the middle of his court as I do trying to hit winners. In fact, I probably win more that way.

Yes, that's it. I will beat his crazy inconsistency with my own consistency.

Don't try to change your game TOO much or else you will fall into his trap of playing HIS game. You can't win playing LIKE HIM because he's better at it than you.
You can win by playing LIKE YOU ... but slightly smarter/better.

In my experience going up the "ranks" (i.e. playing with higher and higher level players) at the level you are talking about you are probably losing points/sets/matches to this "generic 3.5 guy" due to your poor court positioning and/or footwork...not due to your strokes.
This is how I see your situation based on what you described:
You NEED to play these guys and learn how to beat them; it will make you a better player.
Playing something like 20 percent better players, 20 percent weaker players and some 60 percent equal players is the way to go in my view if you want to progress.
Like I said...you are losing due to court positioning/footwork. This is the cause of your inconsistency...not his "mishits that land on the line" or "net cord shots that land in". Statistically, it is impossible for him to hit a sufficiently high number of those to beat you. It is your unforced errors that cause you to lose sets...and your unforced errors are due to not being in position to execute your shots.
Be more deliberate about your movement. Make sure you split step EVERY time. Make sure you recover to the correct position after EVERY shot. Make sure you are in position to hit at least 5 shots in the court. Since he has the style you describe he will NOT be able to take advantage of your more predictable/weaker shots, and bury you with a forehand winner whenever he chooses to.
If you do those things and make sure you get 5 shots over the net in each rally you will win 99.9 % of the sets you play against the guy.

 

[split-step]

You NEED to play these guys and learn how to beat them; it will make you a better player.

All that needs to be said.

These players force you to improve your footwork, learn how to consistently generate your own pace, improve your accuracy, consistently make good overheads and finish points at net.

 

[GuyClinch]

I believe in NTRP they indicate that women can play .5 to 1 level lower then a man with equivalent skills. This is because men are bigger, faster, and stronger..

So I hardly find this result "crazy." I know my 3.5 buddy regularly beats his 4.0 female friend all the time. He hits a crappy frying pan serve and hits pretty much zero spin on all his strokes (he isn't a pusher though - just a flat hitter).

She hits a pretty nice kicker for a serve and hits respectable topspin with depth from both sides and has good control. But it doesn't matter - you can tire her out with drop shots and lobs - and she is just much slower and less athletic then the guy..

It doesn't hurt that the guy is 6'5" and in great shape.. (for his age)..

 

[Winky]

All right so I played the 3.5 today and bageled him the first set! First time ever. Just a month ago he was winning sets. He was so frustrated he wouldn't even play a second set with me. I played quite well and was hitting winners past him even when he came to the net. For some reason everything was just going well today.

EDIT: One of the big changes I made today was going from a medium-length forehand (hand going straight back on backswing) to a longer looping forehand. Made a HUGE difference.

 

[Kyle7286]

All right so I played the 3.5 today and bageled him the first set! First time ever. Just a month ago he was winning sets. He was so frustrated he wouldn't even play a second set with me. I played quite well and was hitting winners past him even when he came to the net. For some reason everything was just going well today.

EDIT: One of the big changes I made today was going from a medium-length forehand (hand going straight back on backswing) to a longer looping forehand. Made a HUGE difference.

You probably were more focused and determined Congrats!

 

[michael_1265]

I think you should stay in the 3.5s for now. I am a 45 year old 3.0. I play a 32 year old woman who dominates the 4.0s and average three games from her a set. The 4.0 men will clean your clock at this point. Maybe not a year from now, but definitely today.

 

[JediMindTrick]

That makes sense but how do you develop two styles of play? Or is it that if you get good enough these weird shots won't even bother you?

Here is an example of one of our typical "rallies:"

-His first serve, huge but in the net
-Second serve, a tiny dink that I have to sprint forward to get to.
-Forehand from me
-A high lob from him that manages to catch my baseline
-running backhand from me, he's rushed the net by now
-shank from him that barely goes over the net, I'm way back in my court so I can't get to it

I don't even know of a strategy that could defeat that. How do you play for shanks and moonballs that happen to catch the line? How do you play for balls that hit the net and dribble over?

The only thing I can think of is to get such a good serve and return that basically I win every point the first time I hit the ball.

Idealy you should keep playing both the 3.5 guy and the 4.0 girl, but if you have to choose, I think it's better to keep playing the 3.5 guy because you are faced with a larger variety of shots, so there's more opportunity for you to learn.

Let's summarize:

-His first serve, huge but in the net - great nothing more to do.

-Second serve, a tiny dink that I have to sprint forward to get to. - you shouldn't have to sprint, you know that his second serve is weak, so stay more inside the baseline, split-step and start moving as soon as he hits the serve, not after the ball bounces.

-Forehand from me - on a dinky second serve you got to be able to put some power on the return and put him in difficulty, this needs practice.

-A high lob from him that manages to catch my baseline - this is typical for 3.5 players that have a lot of match experience. If your approach shot had some pepper on it, his lob would be more erratic. Also if you notice that he always lobs when you come to the net, then don't come too close to the net, stay a little bit closer to the service line and be ready for the overhead.

-running backhand from me, he's rushed the net by now - if he had time to come to the net, then your previous shot wasn't deep enough. Also, if you had to hit the backhand on the run, then his approach shot was good, so he's already in a position where he will win the point more often than not. Use this opportunity to practice your passing shots but don't be surprised if you lose most of these points, you should get into this position in the first place.

-shank from him that barely goes over the net, I'm way back in my court so I can't get to it - this is because he stays very close to the net. It's very easy to hit volleys when you're almost touching the net, even the shanks will go over and win you the point. When he comes to the net, throw some lobs, that will prevent him from coming very close to the net, you have to keep him onest.

As you can see there are plenty of things that you can practice against the 3.5 player.

 

[NLBwell]

I'll guess that you like the ball going horizontally more than vertically.

 

[Fuji]

Here is an example of one of our typical "rallies:"

-His first serve, huge but in the net
-Second serve, a tiny dink that I have to sprint forward to get to.
-Forehand from me
-A high lob from him that manages to catch my baseline
-running backhand from me, he's rushed the net by now
-shank from him that barely goes over the net, I'm way back in my court so I can't get to it

I absolutely love how just described my basic game plan on a basic structure, LOL! For me its not all about the winning and loosing, its about watching the opponent get frustrated beyond belief at the entire style. Sure I get my clock cleaned sometimes by the higher up guys (4.0-4.5), but I think its just a total blast to play like that! There are definitely ways to annihilate us if you have enough patience to deal with our junk! Just keep on working us and you'll come out with the win 90% of the time!

 

[Wilander Fan]

It's hard because you don't have good footwork and 3.5 players can move the ball around the court with their lobs and dinks. Work on your footwork and your serve.

 

[10ACE]

Men
3.5 slower game- some decent rallies- serves ok not so much 2nd serve- force the point opponent usually hits out or in the net

4.0 pace better, depth better, consistent serve- you can expect balls to come back, and direction/location on court better pts played

4.5 Serves strong- both wings are solid, can't slack off in pts- games are more serious in the sense each player brings more the the court- less talk.

what I've experienced

 

[Wilander Fan]

Men
3.5 slower game- some decent rallies- serves ok not so much 2nd serve- force the point opponent usually hits out or in the net

4.0 pace better, depth better, consistent serve- you can expect balls to come back, and direction/location on court better pts played

4.5 Serves strong- both wings are solid, can't slack off in pts- games are more serious in the sense each player brings more the the court- less talk.

what I've experienced

I think the difference between 3.5 and 4 is the footwork. Dinks and moon balls will cause trouble for them because they can't position themselves properly and have trouble timing these balls floating in at different speeds and depths. A good 4 IMO can see a dink or a short floater and casually put it away or at least hit a good approach shot. Can also serve to both sides of the box with some consistency while a 3.5 basically only has one kind of serve.

From whist I seem, it's all about getting the short ball and putting it away. A 3.5 can't do much with it and can't really force one. A 4 can usually win the point when he gets the short ball but can't really create them. A 4.5 can force the short ball off the ground or on serve. IMO

 

[10ACE]

I think the difference between 3.5 and 4 is the footwork. Dinks and moon balls will cause trouble for them because they can't position themselves properly and have trouble timing these balls floating in at different speeds and depths. A good 4 IMO can see a dink or a short floater and casually put it away or at least hit a good approach shot. Can also serve to both sides of the box with some consistency while a 3.5 basically only has one kind of serve.

From whist I seem, it's all about getting the short ball and putting it away. A 3.5 can't do much with it and can't really force one. A 4 can usually win the point when he gets the short ball but can't really create them. A 4.5 can force the short ball off the ground or on serve. IMO

It seems it differs on where you are and the % of tennis players- most 3.5's have decent placement on their 1st serve and kick or get in the second- double faults are higher.

 

[BounceHitBounceHit]

Learning to win against unorthodox players is a part of the growth process. However if you have good footwork, sound technique, and adequate competitive fire VERY few of these kinds of players can win anything other than the RAREST of matches against you.

Still, we've ALL suffered the indignity. I watched a good friend of mine (who played #3 at a strong DI school in college) lose to just such a player on slow clay under humid, slow conditions in the middle of a summer heat wave. The guy must have hit at least two dozen shanked winners in that match.

Good luck with your journey! BHBH

 

[Thud and blunder]

It's tempting to blow off the weirdos, and say 'screw it, I'll just hit with the guys who give me some rythm / feels like real tennis' etc. Don't do it; beating the weird junkballers is a rite of passage; it's good for your strokes, tactics, footwork and mental game.

 

[sphinx780]

echoing what many others have said here: learning to beat the crazies is all a part of the process...especially good for your mental game. I've seen lifer's at 4.0 that make the case for avoiding them day in and day out. I rarely see that at 4.5 and am inclined to believe that there are many 4.0s out there that have stunted their growth by avoiding these frustrating obstacles. Sounds like your last match with him showed a change of mentality imo. Keep at it.