Is it proper to hit your FH's and BH's using the same side (face) of your racquet?
- Thread starter BreakPoint
- Start date
I can't believe I had to get my butt off the couch to prove you wrong, but here's an example of me going from a ready position for a W Forehand to a ready position for an E backhand without moving any part of my upper body (bar turning my head) whatsoever.
Thank you!
FitzRoy
Professional
My palm hasn't changed position...my entire upper body hasn't moved a single iota. I may still be in the "palm up" position, but you're the one insisting on the "palm up" or "palm down" dichotomy, not me. I want to see if we're even talking about the same thing. Let's look at Nadal's forehand take-back position.
http://www.hi-techtennis.com/video_sample/index.php?movie=nadal_front.swf&size=normal
If you advance the video about 20 (give or take) frames (the site has a built in frame-advance feature), I'd say you've reached the full extent of Nadal's take-back. To me, it looks like his palm isn't pointing "up", but rather directly away from him. This is roughly the position that I am in when I start the demonstration that I concocted in my previous post. Western FH take-back. Now, without moving my arm or any other part of my upper body, I take several steps to my left, basically turning my position. The racquet is now on the left side of my body, still pointed away from me. It is in a position similar to Kuerten's racquet as he takes it back in this video:
http://www.hi-techtennis.com/video_sample/index.php?movie=guga_onehander.swf
The major difference is that he has his elbow bent at a different angle. But regardless, from the position that I'm holding the racquet on my backhand side, I can easily bring it down and forward to hit a one-handed backhand as normal.
I would call neither position "palm up" or "palm down", but more "palm sideways". I don't see why you would put your palm up in a take-back. Imagine what a racquet would look like in a Western grip if the palm were pointed up on the take-back; the strings would be parallel to the ground.
I would say that the Western forehand has the palm upward when it contacts the ball, and that the Eastern backhand has the palm downward upon contact, but I don't think that these are essential positions when taking the racquet back. When I hit an Eastern one-hander, my racquet is pointed somewhat upwards in the take-back, and my palm is basically pointed behind me.
Basically what I'm saying is, it seems to me that the palm is brought into position to hit the ball during the swing, and not during the take-back, and is therefore unaffected by which direction you rotate the racquet to achieve your desired grip...or if you don't rotate it at all.
FitzRoy
Professional
I can't believe I had to get my butt off the couch to prove you wrong, but here's an example of me going from a ready position for a W Forehand to a ready position for an E backhand without moving any part of my upper body (bar turning my head) whatsoever.
Yes; thank you, habib. This is what I was describing, but I don't have a webcam to illustrate. I was trying to use video from Jeff Counts' site (see my last post.)
BreakPoint
Bionic Poster
I don't get it. Is that your neutral position? Do you wait for the ball with the racquet to your right side and the head of the racquet sticking up to the sky? If you use a Western FH grip, wouldn't you be waiting for the ball with the racquet out in front of you and you holding the handle with your Western FH grip? From that position, you have to rotate your wrist 180 degrees for your backhand if you want to use the same side of your racquet. Again, to go from palm up to palm down, you MUST rotate your wrist 180 degrees at some point. Your hand does not just magically turn over.I can't believe I had to get my butt off the couch to prove you wrong, but here's an example of me going from a ready position for a W Forehand to a ready position for an E backhand without moving any part of my upper body (bar turning my head) whatsoever.
What you have just said proves you are wrong. Even 20 years ago, teaching pros would teach everyone the 1HBH, and the Eastern Grip Forehand because coming from the wooden racquet to metal era most people used those styles of play.
Even when I was growing up in the 80's, the Western Grip was somehow some less "correct" way of playing, and somehow the 1HBH was better.
Back then most players in the top 100 didnt use those methods.
Now a bunch of them actually do. You cant tell me that it was wrong then, but somehow it's okay now.
The real story is that there are a lot of narrow minded teaching pros out there with no skill or talent when it comes to teaching so they have to dole out some narrow concept that they use to blabber on to everyone because they dont have any ideas of their own.
FitzRoy
Professional
Yes, but that's true whether you change from Western FH to pure Continental (as a neutral grip) and then to Eastern BH, or if you don't change grips at all. Pointing out that the wrist is in a different position at contact is one thing; we're not disagreeing (at least I'm not) with that. But this different wrist position exists regardless of how you achieve the grip: it's simply inherent to the differing contact points of the strokes.
What you seem to be saying is that by changing grips, you can achieve the at-contact palm position without the racquet being in your hand. So? That seems pointless to me. I don't take my racquet back in that position anyway. But even if I did...it still wouldn't make a huge difference in any wear on my body, because I rotate my forearm/wrist with the racquet in my hand continually on all sorts of shots in tennis. I definitely do it on every serve. I do it on many forehand follow-throughs. This is not a painful thing.
I still say that it's entirely possible to go from a Western FH take-back to an Eastern BH take-back without any wrist rotation. You initially said that this couldn't be done. Now you say that the wrist is going to be rotated when comparing contact between the shots. My answer to that is, so what? Are you trying to prove that the wrist is in a different position at contact, or that it has to be rotated to go from one take-back to the other? Because I'm pretty sure that a couple of posts ago, you told me that I was rotating my wrist between take-back positions without being aware of it.
TennisAsAlways
Professional
Who cares whether or not someone decides to (or subconsciously does so) use the same side of the face of the racquet for the FH and BH.
That wouldn't be something as ugly as attempting a FH volley using a western grip (although that would be okay once in a while if one were in trouble and reacting to a fast shot while being stuck in that grip, having no time at all to switch grips), serving with a frying pan grip, arming groundstrokes, or gripping the racquet at the very top of the handle. Those types of things are what is "ugly" -- and not only that, they inhibit one from advancing on to the higher levels.
That wouldn't be something as ugly as attempting a FH volley using a western grip (although that would be okay once in a while if one were in trouble and reacting to a fast shot while being stuck in that grip, having no time at all to switch grips), serving with a frying pan grip, arming groundstrokes, or gripping the racquet at the very top of the handle. Those types of things are what is "ugly" -- and not only that, they inhibit one from advancing on to the higher levels.
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Actually, I change my vote =p.
I hit with a hybrid grip (between eastern & semi-western; Federer's grip) and I always rotate my racquet counter-clockwise on the backhand. Then rotate clockwise to the forehand when I need to hit it. On returns I spin it counter-clockwise while waiting for the serve.
I hit with a hybrid grip (between eastern & semi-western; Federer's grip) and I always rotate my racquet counter-clockwise on the backhand. Then rotate clockwise to the forehand when I need to hit it. On returns I spin it counter-clockwise while waiting for the serve.
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BreakPoint
Bionic Poster
The difference is when you change grips and hit with both sides of your racquet, you rotate (spin) the racquet itself instead of your wrist to get it into the right grip/position to hit your backhand. When you don't change grips and use the same side of your racquet for your forehands and backhands, you instead rotate your wrist to get it into the right grip/position to hit your backhand. You don't rotate (spin) the racquet because you're still gripping it and that's what's meant by not changing grips. You instead rotate your wrist around so that the same face of the racquet is facing the net on your backhand as was on your forehand.
OK I'm going to ask this again as it seemed to have been sucked into the pointless debate...
Can you answer that BreakPoint?
Can you answer that BreakPoint?
Someone needs to post webcam pics of them doing this step by step to show that there is no 180.D rotation. For me it's 10, maybe 20 maximum.
Unless BP, you are talking about the back of my had facing one way, and then the other one on the alternate shot? Like facing the court to the right on a FH and the court to the left on a BH. This is the only way I can see a 180 degree rotation, and thats only from the takeback position.
Pics would be good, but i have no camera. Sorry guys
Unless BP, you are talking about the back of my had facing one way, and then the other one on the alternate shot? Like facing the court to the right on a FH and the court to the left on a BH. This is the only way I can see a 180 degree rotation, and thats only from the takeback position.
Pics would be good, but i have no camera. Sorry guys
Ripper
Hall of Fame
Alberto Berasategui. That's the guy. He's from Spain and his career highlights are making it to #7 in the world and reaching the Roland Garros final. He, also, won many titles.
Listen guys. The style Breakpoint refers to is, sometimes, used by beginners who want to avoid changing grips. He's right in saying they it looks ugly when performed by these guys. However, it's difficult for any beginner to have stylish strokes, no matter if they rotate their racquets from BH to FH or not. Hitting this way, requires that you use a somewhat to very extreme grip on your BH. It's difficult enough for beginners to, even, hit a decent BH. Now, imagine one trying to hit a BH with an extreme grip. Yes, horrible! Nevertheless, many high level and super ultra stylish players use this technique in countries like Spain, for example, where topspin shots are kind of the rule. So, he's wrong in generalizing about the uglyness of this technique. I think he has somekind of a personal beef, but only he knows what it is.
Listen guys. The style Breakpoint refers to is, sometimes, used by beginners who want to avoid changing grips. He's right in saying they it looks ugly when performed by these guys. However, it's difficult for any beginner to have stylish strokes, no matter if they rotate their racquets from BH to FH or not. Hitting this way, requires that you use a somewhat to very extreme grip on your BH. It's difficult enough for beginners to, even, hit a decent BH. Now, imagine one trying to hit a BH with an extreme grip. Yes, horrible! Nevertheless, many high level and super ultra stylish players use this technique in countries like Spain, for example, where topspin shots are kind of the rule. So, he's wrong in generalizing about the uglyness of this technique. I think he has somekind of a personal beef, but only he knows what it is.
Bungalo Bill
G.O.A.T.
For the final time, there is nothing wrong with hitting the ball on the same side of the racquet. It does not hurt the wrist or anything else. It is a smart way to play for those it makes sense to do so.
Every player should find ways to change grips quickly, minimize the real estate the hand needs to travel to get into the preferred grip, and be ready to hit the ball on time. How a player chooses to do this is up to them.
A player needs to do what they can to minimize how far they have to move the hand to get in the grip of choice - THAT IS FUNDAMENTAL.
Yes, but stop being dense and realize that your wrist will rotate automatically as a consequence of the stroke. Have you ever seen a pro at the end of a forehand follow through with the racquet wrapped around the body?
Actually Fitz is right here, and you're hilariously wrong, and I'm not sure why no one caught this before, so kudos FitzRoy.
Basically, no matter what grip you use on either side, your wrist WILL rotate when you move from forehand to backhand. Using your logic, if with a W FH grip the hand is under the racquet from the point at which you rotate, then with an E FH your hand is behid the racquet. That's still some rotation that has to take place before you can get it on TOP of the racquet and on the opposite side of your body. If this is sufficient proof to you that your arguments have no basis in reality or logic, might I suggest a cold bath and a hot toaster?
man, this 180 degree stuff is driving me crazy too.
You keep saying you have to go from palm-up to palm-down and that's 180 degrees, no matter what if you're using Semi-western forehand and a 1hbh, you're going from palm-up to palm-down. This is true no matter which style you are playing.
You have to look at it like this Breakpoint, if you are hitting with the same side of the racquet, you are doing the same thing as if you are hitting with both sides, except for the following changes:
Most likely your ready position grip is not Continental, it is probably Semi-western forehand grip, and the racquet is being held in the SAME position as with Continental, out in front of your body, racquet held with the racquet face perpendicular to the ground.
When you go to either forehand or backhand side, you are doing the SAME thing as when you start with Continental, except maybe forehand side you don't have to switch grips. On the backhand side, you follow the SAME unit turn with the ONLY difference being that you rotate the racquet handle a different direction, i.e. clockwise or counter-clockwise. EVERYTHING ELSE IS THE SAME.
You hit, you return to ready position. You hit again.
the ONLY difference is which direction you rotate the racquet on the grip change. In some rare cases, there may not even be a grip change. There is no change in the stress on your hand or wrist, you do the same motions for either style of play. You hit, you return to ready position. If there is a grip change, you are rotating the racquet within your hand.
Please try to understand what we are saying, this is getting out of hand.
You keep saying you have to go from palm-up to palm-down and that's 180 degrees, no matter what if you're using Semi-western forehand and a 1hbh, you're going from palm-up to palm-down. This is true no matter which style you are playing.
You have to look at it like this Breakpoint, if you are hitting with the same side of the racquet, you are doing the same thing as if you are hitting with both sides, except for the following changes:
Most likely your ready position grip is not Continental, it is probably Semi-western forehand grip, and the racquet is being held in the SAME position as with Continental, out in front of your body, racquet held with the racquet face perpendicular to the ground.
When you go to either forehand or backhand side, you are doing the SAME thing as when you start with Continental, except maybe forehand side you don't have to switch grips. On the backhand side, you follow the SAME unit turn with the ONLY difference being that you rotate the racquet handle a different direction, i.e. clockwise or counter-clockwise. EVERYTHING ELSE IS THE SAME.
You hit, you return to ready position. You hit again.
the ONLY difference is which direction you rotate the racquet on the grip change. In some rare cases, there may not even be a grip change. There is no change in the stress on your hand or wrist, you do the same motions for either style of play. You hit, you return to ready position. If there is a grip change, you are rotating the racquet within your hand.
Please try to understand what we are saying, this is getting out of hand.
Funny thread. Goes to show that trying to describe something via the written word is not the way to go when talking tennis mechanics..a picture paints a thousand words and all that abba dabba
In any case, I've been following along a bit and would like to contribute.
I think people are stuck in the semantics of the thing, and it would seem that several people didnt understand what BP was asking in his poll or surely not nearly as many would have said it is 'proper'. Using the word 'proper' threw the monkey wrench into the thing I think, and wasnt a good choice of words. I would assume that people would exclude those who flip or twirl their racquet in their hand between shots.
In my experiences having given a few thousand lessons and having been around the tennis block, I have seen one person hitting the ball on the same side of the stringbed for forehands and backhands. he was very hard to teach, but played around the 4.5 level doing this. his grip was more like a continental. to hit a backhand he would invert the racquetface and chop down on the ball..he even could do this with backhand volleys somehow, and his serve was kind of a slice serve that sliced the opposite direction from 'normal'..or should i say 'proper'.?? Anyway, the guy could smoke his forehand, the backhand had this crazy hard slice on it, and his serve was hard to figure out for people who hadnt ever seen something like that before...does that make what he was doing proper? well, for him it was, but i would say that playing with one side of the stringbed would be in the area of an anomoly....you all can decide if that makes it proper or not....but only one case of this over the years speaks for itself. I wasnt going to reinvent his wheel, so i just worked around his grips and most unusual style. Other posters mentioned Berasetagui doing this and his grip must have been the opposite of this guy I am talking about and very extreme
As for me, my racquets have an 'up' and 'down' side to them. Is that proper??? Maybe I'll start a poll about this
In any case, I've been following along a bit and would like to contribute.
I think people are stuck in the semantics of the thing, and it would seem that several people didnt understand what BP was asking in his poll or surely not nearly as many would have said it is 'proper'. Using the word 'proper' threw the monkey wrench into the thing I think, and wasnt a good choice of words. I would assume that people would exclude those who flip or twirl their racquet in their hand between shots.
In my experiences having given a few thousand lessons and having been around the tennis block, I have seen one person hitting the ball on the same side of the stringbed for forehands and backhands. he was very hard to teach, but played around the 4.5 level doing this. his grip was more like a continental. to hit a backhand he would invert the racquetface and chop down on the ball..he even could do this with backhand volleys somehow, and his serve was kind of a slice serve that sliced the opposite direction from 'normal'..or should i say 'proper'.?? Anyway, the guy could smoke his forehand, the backhand had this crazy hard slice on it, and his serve was hard to figure out for people who hadnt ever seen something like that before...does that make what he was doing proper? well, for him it was, but i would say that playing with one side of the stringbed would be in the area of an anomoly....you all can decide if that makes it proper or not....but only one case of this over the years speaks for itself. I wasnt going to reinvent his wheel, so i just worked around his grips and most unusual style. Other posters mentioned Berasetagui doing this and his grip must have been the opposite of this guy I am talking about and very extreme
As for me, my racquets have an 'up' and 'down' side to them. Is that proper??? Maybe I'll start a poll about this
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Funny thread. Goes to show that trying to describe something via the written word is not the way to go when talking tennis mechanics..a picture paints a thousand words and all that abba dabba
In any case, I've been following along a bit and would like to contribute.
I think people are stuck in the semantics of the thing, and it would seem that several people didnt understand what BP was asking in his poll or surely not nearly as many would have said it is 'proper'. Using the word 'proper' threw the monkey wrench into the thing I think, and wasnt a good choice of words.
As was the word "wrong."
Bungalo Bill
G.O.A.T.
Funny thread. Goes to show that trying to describe something via the written word is not the way to go when talking tennis mechanics..a picture paints a thousand words and all that abba dabba
In any case, I've been following along a bit and would like to contribute.
I think people are stuck in the semantics of the thing, and it would seem that several people didnt understand what BP was asking in his poll or surely not nearly as many would have said it is 'proper'. Using the word 'proper' threw the monkey wrench into the thing I think, and wasnt a good choice of words. I would assume that people would exclude those who flip or twirl their racquet in their hand between shots
In my experiences having given a few thousand lessons and having been around the tennis block, I have seen one person hitting the ball on the same side of the stringbed for forehands and backhands. he was very hard to teach, but played around the 4.5 level doing this. his grip was more like a continental. to hit a backhand he would invert the racquetface and chop down on the ball..he even could do this with backhand volleys somehow, and his serve was kind of a slice serve that sliced the opposite direction from 'normal'..or should i say 'proper'.?? Anyway, the guy could smoke his forehand, the backhand had this crazy hard slice on it, and his serve was hard to figure out for people who hadnt ever seen something like that before...does that make what he was doing proper? well, for him it was, but i would say that playing with one side of the stringbed would be in the area of an anomoly....you all can decide if that makes it proper or not....but only one case of this over the years speaks for itself. I wasnt going to reinvent his wheel, so i just worked around his grips and most unusual style. Other posters mentioned Berasetagui doing this and his grip must have been the opposite of this guy I am talking about and very extreme
As for me, my racquets have an 'up' and 'down' side to them. Is that proper??? Maybe I'll start a poll about this
For a guy that has taught "THOUSANDS" of lessons you should be the first to realize that a grip change IS what is taught to players most often using beginner grips for the forehand and backhand side. Extreme grips for beginners are rarely taught.
You should also know that the hand has thousands of sensory inputs that cause the brain to "GET USED TO SOMETHING". Once a player "GETS USED TO SOMETHING" it is very difficult to change a players habit to change a grip from one way to another or have no grip change. Most players learn to wait in a neutral grip to shorten the distance between a grip change. This is fundamental.
Next time you are out on the court, take a couple "air swings" without changing grips. You will see how easy it is to do. Then go try and return some serves - uh oh, not so easy anymore. The programming in the brain has been conditioned to accept a certain way to get into the proper grip.
You are implying that changing a grip is a better way because EVERYONE does it this way - like as if deciding not to change grips is something that can be done easily and wheneve someone wants too. Wrong!
Players with extreme grips will either hit on the same side of the racquet or will wait in an inbetween grip to speed up the change.
It is a preference and there is nothing, absolutely nothing wrong with not changing grips as you indicated.
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I learned a semiwestern grip from the first time I picked up a racket- I use an EBH grip. When I first started I was having trouble rotating the grip around the nearly 180 degrees and ending up in a consistent grip. I consciously started just moving the one bevel back and forth and it has helped me a great deal. There just isn't any advantage of rotating the grip so far when really you are just one bevel away that I can see. Lots of players have been playing for years rotating their grip so far- I think I was fortunate to start hitting with the same side of the racket early on because it just seems so much more efficeint.
BreakPoint
Bionic Poster
Stand facing the net, now hold your racquet in a Western FH grip and stretch your arm out to your right (assuming you're righty). This should be your position when you hit your forehand. Now bring the racquet around the front of your body in an arc to your left side without changing grips with your arm still out-stretched. The opposite side of the racquet face is now facing the net. It's not really possible to hit a backhand with this opposite side of the racquet without a grip change. So to hit with the same side of the racquet face as your forehand, you need to rotate your wrist 180 degrees to get the same face of the racquet in the right position. All this without changing grips or releasing your grip. When you rotate your wrist 180 degrees, the top edge of the racquet that is perpendicular to the ground on your forehand is now the bottom edge.
BreakPoint, no one would actually do that though in practice. You seem to be thinking the only way to pronate your forearm (rotate 180 degree if you prefer) with a racquet is to hold the racquet in a half complete western forehand swing, then rotate creating a huge windshield wiper motion.
This isn't reality though, and in practice going from a ready stance holding a western grip to an eastern grip backhand takeback takes absolutely no more effort than if I had changed grips. In my actual game, it makes no difference to me which way I rotate from SW to Eastern, I can do either just as efficiently. If I had video equipment I'd love to show you.
This isn't reality though, and in practice going from a ready stance holding a western grip to an eastern grip backhand takeback takes absolutely no more effort than if I had changed grips. In my actual game, it makes no difference to me which way I rotate from SW to Eastern, I can do either just as efficiently. If I had video equipment I'd love to show you.
I don't have a video to post, but I think I can describe it easily to anyone that has the concept of what a semi-western forehand grip is.
1) Take a racquet and hold it in a semi-western forehand grip and hold the racquet straight up with the racquet face facing your face (at arm's length) so that you can see the "V" created by the base of the thumb and the base of the pointing finger.
2) To simplify things, pretend that the racquet in this position is a hand of a clock so that it can only rotate on the plane the racquet face is aligned to. At the position at 1) it is in the 12 o'clock position.
3) Rotate the racquet in the plane so that the "clock hand" is at the 3 o'clock position. You'll do this by supinating (similar to rotating the wrist to the right if your are holding the racquet with your right hand). This should put you and the racquet into something that resembles a hitting position for a semi-western forehand. Note: The body positioning isn't ideal, but that's just the constraint we put on by limiting this excercise to two dimensions to make the concept clearer.
4) Now rotate the racquet in the plane so that the "clock hand" is at the 9 o'clock position. You'll do this by pronating (similar to rotating the wrist to the left). This puts the racquet into an extreme eastern backhand grip hitting position. Note: again as noted above, body position isn't ideal, but this is a constraint brought on by our 2-D example.
If you add the third dimension into the above, you'll find that by going to the end position of 3) and 4) and with a simple shoulder turn and perhaps an adjustment in footwork, you will find yourself in an ideal position ready to start the forward stroke of a forehand stoke (using 3) and a backhand stroke (using 4).
If you work with it, you'll find that it's simple and elegant. There's no ungoddly strain on the wrist as it's no more strain than you put on your arm by pronating through a proper serve.
So this shows that we can easily go from a forehand to a backhand grip with nothing more than some forearm supination or pronation with a shoulder turn and an adjustment in footwork.
But why would you start the switch to a backhand from the middle of a forehand? It is your initial premise and it makes no sense. People usually start a FH or BH from a neutral position, not halfway through a stroke. I'm not sure how much logic and reality you can throw at a person before declaring them hopeless.
This is not the first time in the thread BB has been comprehensively right.
BP is now the lone voice of dissent, and in my view has lost a load of reputation in the process of sticking with a line that deliberately fails to understand almost all other posters. I would go as far to say, given the ease with everyone else can understand this point, that he too can understand it, he's just not willing to admit that he can too, as it would require admitting that he was wrong....
Your little twists and false-premises may work on some of the kids here, but some of us very much are not kids.
Simply stating that people don't use a technique in no way means that they've rejected it as being ineffective. (Do you think Fed thinks Nadal's two hander is ineffective? Do you think Monica thought Graf's 1HFH was? Do you think most players thought Becker's amazing serve-method was ineffective? Not a chance to any of the above).
Next twist? Next false-premise on which you'll base a proof? Normally I wouldn't hang this long in a thread, but this is actually amusing me. Your inability to make logical statements and discuss with logical methods is simply breathtaking*, as highlighted in the sentence I've quoted above.
*Of course, perhaps you are just trolling as others have suggested. I hope not!
Orly_Yarly
Rookie
Comon OrangeOne, why bother arguing on a broken point? its not worth your time ^_^
btw i liek the michael johnson example =D
btw i liek the michael johnson example =D
What I'm trying to say, among others, is that your reasoning behind this 180 degrees business doesn't apply because you don't include a return to the "ready" position.
If you hit a semi-western forehand, and a 1hbh, you're going to have your palm up for the forehand and palm down for the forehand, regardless of what case you're arguing here. Federer, you, me, we all will do this. That doesn't necessarily mean there's a 180 degree rotation with the racquet in your hand, perhaps you hit the ball really flat, windshield wiper, or you''re hitting a standard low-to-high backhand, after you finish the stroke, you return the racquet to the ready position.
You're saying that people who hit with one side of the racquet are skipping the ready position in your example, and are just going from forehand to backhand starting and finishing positions. I'm just trying to clarify this, because the misunderstanding is causing illogical arguments.
Just try to imagine what you do, your process, except just change the direction you rotate the racquet handle when you change your grip. Even if you're using a grip that is the same for forehand and backhand, you go through the same process. Unit turn, swing, follow-thru, return to ready position.
I think if you understand what I'm trying to say, that the only difference occurs in the unit turn when you are rotating the racquet to change your grip, you will see why so many feel it is not a big deal. All other mechanics are the same.
I think you have been showing in your example that if you hit from the same side, how you think it would have to be,
when we have been trying to show you what we do, and how it results in hitting from the same side.
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Morpheus
Professional
[ GTR ];1590632 said:BREAKPOINT IS WRONG!!!!!!!!!!!!
Actually, BP is not wrong, he is just a little judgemental and opinionated. This sort of threads also lead to the title of G.O.A.T. since they add to the post count even though they are more argumentative than instructive.
I don't know if it is proper or not to do this...
I have one friend who is good at tennis who plays with a Hawaiian grip or maybe some variant of it and never changes the grip at all during the rally. He has it locked in this Hawaiian grip for the forehand and i have no idea how he hits like this because i tried it once or twice and felt like my arm was gonna twist off, but for his back hand he doesn't have to change the grip because he uses a 2hbh and when he goes to hit a shot he just turns the wrist and due to the forehand grip he is already in a eastern/semiwestern backhand grip for the lower hand. He hits the ball on the same side of the string because of this.
I think by playing this way though you snap strings faster. My friend snaps strings really fast.
I have one friend who is good at tennis who plays with a Hawaiian grip or maybe some variant of it and never changes the grip at all during the rally. He has it locked in this Hawaiian grip for the forehand and i have no idea how he hits like this because i tried it once or twice and felt like my arm was gonna twist off, but for his back hand he doesn't have to change the grip because he uses a 2hbh and when he goes to hit a shot he just turns the wrist and due to the forehand grip he is already in a eastern/semiwestern backhand grip for the lower hand. He hits the ball on the same side of the string because of this.
I think by playing this way though you snap strings faster. My friend snaps strings really fast.
onehandbh
G.O.A.T.
I think the take back for 1 handers may be a bit awkward if you don't
change grips. (assuming you use your opposite hand for the takeback
for FH & BH)
The left hand is either going to be on the wrong side of the racquet
for the FH or th BH depending on which side you put it. So you'll
have to switch it during the takeback or rotate your racquet handwrist
to shift the left hand to the correct side b4 the takeback -- but this
kind of defeats the purpose of one grip.
change grips. (assuming you use your opposite hand for the takeback
for FH & BH)
The left hand is either going to be on the wrong side of the racquet
for the FH or th BH depending on which side you put it. So you'll
have to switch it during the takeback or rotate your racquet handwrist
to shift the left hand to the correct side b4 the takeback -- but this
kind of defeats the purpose of one grip.
T
TennisandMusic
Guest
Here is a video of myself hitting around with my brother. I am the one closest to the camera. I hit with a forehand grip that tends towards western and a backhand grip that is pretty much eastern. As you can see I hit all five shots in the video with the same side of the racquet. There is no extreme and painful 180 degree wrist rotation. No they are not that pretty but this is a light hit and I am not a pro. As you can see this is not a "wrong" way to do things. It seems to me breakpoint just wants to be "right" and will not rest until everyone on Earth bows down to his obviously superior intellect.
Breakpoint please tell me what I am doing wrong here and how I am going to damage my body. I am not currently in the best shape (this was just a week ago) but being a data manager will do that to you.
Everyone please take a look and tell me what you think of this video as it pertains to the topic. And breakpoint I DO change my grips for groundstrokes off each side.
I apologize for the video being somewhat blurry, I just changed it to a lower res .mov file for ease of download.
http://rapidshare.com/files/42939965/groundstrokes.mov.html
Breakpoint please tell me what I am doing wrong here and how I am going to damage my body. I am not currently in the best shape (this was just a week ago) but being a data manager will do that to you.
Everyone please take a look and tell me what you think of this video as it pertains to the topic. And breakpoint I DO change my grips for groundstrokes off each side.
I apologize for the video being somewhat blurry, I just changed it to a lower res .mov file for ease of download.
http://rapidshare.com/files/42939965/groundstrokes.mov.html
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Amone
Hall of Fame
Depending on which direction you rotate your racquet between shots (to get into your ready position) a one-handed-backhand player will very likely hit like this. For a slightly obvious example, I used to hit with a semi-western forehand, and an extreme one-handed backhand-- Identical to the forehand, but rotated 180 degrees, basically. As a result, I hit with the same side of my strings on both my forehand, and my backhand. I do not see how this hurt my game.
T
TennisandMusic
Guest
Here you go. Youtube pretty much munched the video but it still serves its purpose.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=vmqHUGc9Gss
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BreakPoint
Bionic Poster
That would mean Federer is hitting with the OPPOSITE sides of his racquet. When you hit with the opposite sides of the racquet, the same edge of the head points up on both FH and BH, so the logo should always be pointing the same way.
If you hit with only one side of your stringbed, you have the flip the racquet upside down, meaning the top side edge now becomes the bottom side edge, when going from FH to BH or vise versa. Thus, the logo would go from pointing up to pointing down every time your flipped the racquet over.
rosewell4ever
New User
I find it funny that one would notice... And if they did meant they weren't paying attention to the ball. I think in the poll the option 'who cares' should be included IMHO.
T
TennisandMusic
Guest
Of course I hit slice. My shots typically land within a foot or two of the baseline when I am really hitting. I do not have a ranking but when I played with my uncle at Mission Hills on grass he said I hit like 5.0's he has played with. He is a legit 4.0. I make no claim to be that good but I can hit with plenty of spin and depth, and that is what he said. I really have no interest in a ranking number spitting contest.
I mean I could post other videos but that isn't the purpose of this thread. Point is it can be done, it is natural if you have certain grips and it is far from being inherently "wrong," and I don't what is so hard about admitting this.
Also I grew up playing on a wooden stick with an eastern forehand. I changed with within the last year or so when I wanted to play a heavier game. I had to totally relearn how to switch grips because I was doing a full half rotation of the racquet when all I needed to do was adjust the grip one bevel or even less, and this allows you to hit off the same side of the racquet extremely easily. When I'm actually playing however I tend to spin the racquet in my hands a lot.
Edit: I don't really hit much slice forehand, but I can if I want too. I usually don't though.
Edit: One more thing I forgot haha. I don't normally play with the pure control. I was just testing it out. I normally play with the aeropro drive and I actually hit much deeper, harder and with more spin with that racquet. I totally forgot I'm not using my normal racquet in that clip.
I mean I could post other videos but that isn't the purpose of this thread. Point is it can be done, it is natural if you have certain grips and it is far from being inherently "wrong," and I don't what is so hard about admitting this.
Also I grew up playing on a wooden stick with an eastern forehand. I changed with within the last year or so when I wanted to play a heavier game. I had to totally relearn how to switch grips because I was doing a full half rotation of the racquet when all I needed to do was adjust the grip one bevel or even less, and this allows you to hit off the same side of the racquet extremely easily. When I'm actually playing however I tend to spin the racquet in my hands a lot.
Edit: I don't really hit much slice forehand, but I can if I want too. I usually don't though.
Edit: One more thing I forgot haha. I don't normally play with the pure control. I was just testing it out. I normally play with the aeropro drive and I actually hit much deeper, harder and with more spin with that racquet. I totally forgot I'm not using my normal racquet in that clip.
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Amone
Hall of Fame
TennisandMusic,
I know it's just a very short clip and just a few strokes, but from the looks of it, it doesn't appear that either your FH nor BH look very penetrating to me. BTW, what level do you play at?
BTW, do you ever hit a slice BH or slice FH? I don't think it's really possible with the way you hit the ball, so you might be losing a lot of variety in your game. FYI, I hit a screaming crosscourt slice forehand passing shot against a very good player today.
And, yes, your strokes don't look as bad because you DO change grips. It looks much worse with the guys that DO NOT change grips at all.
Amone,
Same question for you on the slice FH and BH and do you change grips at all or use the exact same grip (never releasing your grip)?
Oh, of course I change grips on the slice.
I knew a guy who didn't for a while, and while I can't say I was a better player, the low quality of his slice will be forever ingrained in my memory. It's a fair question, to be sure.
T
TennisandMusic
Guest
Hey BP when do we get to see videos of you playing out there?
Thanks to tennisandmusic for posting a video that shows one doesn't have to contort (break) one's wrist to hit a FH and a BH with an efficient grip change. The thread should probably have been closed at that point. 180 degrees is now dead and buried.
How can you say that based on only seeing a Western Forehand and a TS BH? If you only saw Nadal's WFH & 2HBH, would you say the same thing? One's ability to hit a slice from either side is not ultimately limited by their drive-shots, in fact, assuming one does the mandatory and changes grip for the slice, there is no correlation between the two shots! You are sounding less and less like someone who actually understands the modern tennis game by the minute.
Oh - screaming FH slice winners? The pros don't use that shot thesedays, well, hardly at all anyways, so surely you'd ditch that shot? (Please: you're honestly coming into this thread, and saying you do something and thus others should, after spending half of this thread saying that we should model of the pros. Please indeed.)
How can you say that based on only seeing a Western Forehand and a TS BH? If you only saw Nadal's WFH & 2HBH, would you say the same thing? One's ability to hit a slice from either side is not ultimately limited by their drive-shots, in fact, assuming one does the mandatory and changes grip for the slice, there is no correlation between the two shots! You are sounding less and less like someone who actually understands the modern tennis game by the minute.
TennisandMusic, your strokes look fine. Certainly there is nothing in either of your strokes that in any way relates to your grip change.
Oh - screaming FH slice winners? The pros don't use that shot thesedays, well, hardly at all anyways, so surely you'd ditch that shot?
(Please: you're honestly coming into this thread, and saying you do something and thus others should, after spending half of this thread saying that we should model of the pros. Please indeed.)
lecter255
Rookie
o man i can't believe i didn't realize it... that was so noob. lol sorry
i hit w/ the same side of the racquet. i hold the racquet in semi-western forehand grip, and i hit a eastern backhand. i just nudge my hand over a bit to switch to backhand. works fine for me.
BreakPoint
Bionic Poster
Perhaps you don't watch as many of Federer's matches as I do but I've seen him hit forehand slices quite often.Oh - screaming FH slice winners? The pros don't use that shot thesedays, well, hardly at all anyways, so surely you'd ditch that shot?
And, no, I don't do it all the time, perhaps 1 in a 100 forehand passing shots. Do you only hit using one side of your racquet 1 in a 100 backhands?
BreakPoint
Bionic Poster
Fine, I'll admit that some pros have their unique idiosyncrosies. However, no pros use the same side of their racquets. None. There must be a good reason, especially when so many pros today used Western grips.
BTW, what does Henin do that's "improper"?
FitzRoy
Professional
Actually, there is a good reason. It's because today's pros didn't start playing with extreme grips. According to a thing I read by Nick Bolletieri, he taught Tommy Haas an eastern forehand with basically a straight take-back. Very compact. Eventually Haas' grip just kept rotating to deal with the higher bounce he was facing, and his swing changed as well. None of these guys started playing with Western grips; they were taught more classical grips and just changed on their own as they got older.
So at the beginning, they were using more classical grips and changing grips between BH and FH. They established a familiarity with doing this, something that was part of their overall habit during points. Watch a video of Gasquet and try to keep track of how many times he rotates his racquet after every shot. It's hard to count.
When the classical grips became extreme grips, they continued rotating because it was what they had always done.
There are players today who are taught a Semiwestern FH and perhaps an extreme eastern backhand. They rotate the racquet only slightly and use the same face to hit topspin forehands and backhands, because it's a much shorter rotation that way. That's the pattern they establish and develop.
By the way, this is mostly speculation on my part. But you should be ok with that, right BP?
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