Ivanisevic vs. Krajicek - who DID have the better serve?

Goenitz_196

New User
Goran Ivanisevic and Richard Krajicek. We know these two guys serve like monsters, but seeing I as only really got into tennis around 1999, I've missed the majority of the times when these two guys were at their peak. Come to that, I haven't seen them play much, only saw them in action in Wimbledon 2001 (Goran) and Wimbledon 2002 (Richard). Both are long gone now.

From what I've read, Krajicek holds the record for most aces in a match, about 47 I think (can't remember) which was against Kafelnikov, a match Krajicek actually LOST.

However it is said that Ivanisevic has the best 1st serve of all time, probably just a little bit better then Sampras's 1st serve, seeing as Goran seemed to be able to ace people consistently in 2-3 times in a row.

So therefore I was wondering if you guys here who have seen these two at their peak, who was the better server, and if possible, their fastest serves ever recorded?
 

The tennis guy

Hall of Fame
I'd say Ivanesevic because he is lefty and more difficult to read. He is ONE of the best servers all time. However, his serve does become suspect when he is down mentally which is why he isn't the best server.
 
Absolutely Ivanisevic who probably had the best 1st serve weapon of all time. He hit the spots with diguise better than anyone and won more free points than anybody. Sampras had a better 2nd serve, but even Pete called Ivo's first serve the biggest weapon in the game. I dont' recall anyone getting the routine ace numbers Goran posted regularly. On grass 20-35 aces for Goran was just another day.

That's not to downplay Krajicek who had a wonderfully smooth, coordinated motion, a lovely ball toss( at times in his career he hit the ball at the exact peak at other times he'd throw it just a few inches higher) and great weight transfer. Ivanisevic's motion was unorthodox, particularly the starting stance, though he also had a similar low ball toss. As Tennis Guy points out, his leftiness helped out as well.

I wasn't in love with Krajicek's second serve, it was no weakness but I thought it could have been better given his height, motion and strength. It was a bit bland, it tended to be a moderate speed kick serve. It had weight, but again, he could have mixed it up more and gone for more speed at times. On the positive side, it had margin for error and so he didn't double fault very much.

I wont' go back into the record books(by the way Kevin, I was talking about year end speed records...I posted at length about this in the other thread where you asked but there was an error in the posting and I didn't feel like retyping it all) but I THINK Ivanisevic fastest recorded serve is still 136mph. Krajicek has gone 139mph.
 

Rabbit

G.O.A.T.
I would agree that Ivo had a better first serve than RK.

But, the one two punch of serve/volley goes hands down to RK. Also, IMO, Krajicek had a better second serve than Ivo. Ivo had passable volleys at best, his best effort was to get a boomer in and let that set up his volley. RK was a consumate serve/volley player.
 

Goran

New User
A discussion of my two favorite players! I'm so happy I could cry... As much as I like Richard, however, I wouldn't dare to say he had the better serve of the two. GORAN ROOOOLS! (and he was 9-3 vs. Krajicek lifetime :p)
 
Rabbit said:
But, the one two punch of serve/volley goes hands down to RK. Also, IMO, Krajicek had a better second serve than Ivo. Ivo had passable volleys at best, his best effort was to get a boomer in and let that set up his volley. RK was a consumate serve/volley player.

Disagree on the 2nd serve but agree wholeheartedly that Krajicek's serve and volley was a class or 2 above Goran's.
 

EdbergFan

New User
Goran .. disguise and lefty ... deadly combination

I do remember McEnroe once saying that Richard that the best righty first serve he had seen.
 

Kevin Patrick

Hall of Fame
Ivanisevic was the most prolific acer of all time, so he gets the nod on serving, but I think Krajicek was a better all around player (with so many injuries) Interesting that Ivo owned Krajicek 9-3, Rusedski also owned Krajicek, guess he really hated lefties.
Krajicek's weakest shot was the backhand return of serve, maybe that had something to do with it.

Interesting Data, I don't remember Krajicek's 2nd serve, I'll have to go to my tape library. Also do you know if there is a website which has year end top serve speeds?
On an unrelated note (I apologize to those who get irritated by unrelated questions), I've been thinking about Todd Martin's career now that he's gone. If he had managed to not choke away his semi in '96, how do you think he would have done against Krajicek in the final? It would have been a much different final than the one vs. Washington.
I think it could have gone down to the wire(with a lot of neves I'm sure), both were great grasscourt players, & didn't have to play Sampras that day, what an opportunity. Krajicek was more naturally talented, but Martin could routinely hold on grass when playing well. He was ranked higher than Krajicek at the time.
 

The tennis guy

Hall of Fame
I'd give second serve to Ivanesevic as well. Krajicek's second serve sit up too much. Krajicek is a very good serve and volleyer while Ivanesevic is a big serving baseliner who serve and volley on grass only.

As of Martin's hypothetical chance against Krajicek at W, I'd say definitely Krajieck. Krajicek was just too good there that year. Martin can hold his own, but he is not athletic enough on grass against really good grass courter like Krajicek. Martin did well against Ivanisevic there, but the later isn't a 'grass court player' even though he won there eventually.
 

Kobble

Hall of Fame
Ivanisevic had the better first serve. Being lefty along with the disguise was really the key. The debate over Krajicek's second serve is interesting, because I don't remember it being easily attackable. However, I don't think it really mattered to him since was was looking to get into position at the net anyway.
 
hey Kev. I know I've seen websites with fastest serves for a particular year but I don't know of one with an archive of all the years :-(

I agree with Tennis Guy that Krajicek seemed unstoppable that year. He was red hot in all aspects of his game, the best/most confident I'd ever seen him. I think Martin would have had more of a chance than Washington did because his own firepower might have been sufficient to hold his own serve and give Krajicek something to think about...maybe the nerves would have flared up like you say. Really hard to say, but he would have had to dent Krajicek's confidence and bring his game down a notch, otherwise Krajicek was just too good those 2 weeks.

I wouldn't/didn't say Krajicek's serve was easily attackable Kobble....it was better than most of the 2nd serves tennis has seen. But from what I remember, I would take most of the other elite servers 2nd serves over Krajicek's. To me, he seemed pretty content to kick in a good but not great 2nd serve a lot of the time....I don't remember him mixing up the spins much...it was often the exact same type of kick serve...I don't remember him going for much of slice....though he could kick it out wide, though not with great speed....it was placed OK, but often down the middlish....and I think he had potential for more.

I too should go back and look at his 2nd serve... before I stick foot in mouth too much! lol.
 

babar

Professional
In reference to 2 of the greatest of all time, Sampras has always stated that Goran's serve was the hardest to read of any player he consistently played. He also has stated that he never looked at his draw at tournaments to see who was up in his half, except for Goran at Wimbledon. Agassi has beaten both Ivo and Krajicek at the big W.
 

@wright

Hall of Fame
Goran's first serve was better, I really don't remember whose second serve was more lethal, I haven't seen either of these guys play in so long. Krajicek was a much more complete player than Goran, although I think Goran holds a special place in all our hearts.
 
Awright is right on the money. Goran's serve was better, but Krajicek was a better player. If it hadn't been for injury who knows how many more slams the big Dutchman would have won.

Of all the tennis players I've ever seen, Krajicek was by far the most awesome sight to behold. He looked like a genetically engineered cyborg. This is what you would end up with if you designed a machine to play tennis.
 

mlee2

Rookie
Krajicek had enormous loads of talent with bad luck. People talk about Safin having lots of talent with little results to back it up but you got to remember Krajicek for being in that cateogry.

There are a lot of parallels between the Dutchman and Safin. Look at height, build, weapons, power game and standard textbook form. These guys are like cyborgs.
 

!Tym

Hall of Fame
It's hard to say, 'cause there was no doubt that in his hey day Krajicek was considered in Goran, Sampras, Stich, Becker, Rosset, Forget, etc. class of big servers. They were all big servers, haha; and basically if all were on, they were 99.9% effective. So it's not like it really made that much of a difference, seriously. There was nothing you could really do against any of these guys if their serves were on on any given day, so it's kind of a washout. After all, you can't really improve on perfection.

Put it this way, their serves were all "good enough." In other words, it was the REST of their game that determined their results on any given day.

But for strictly hypothetical comparisons, since I don't honestly felt it made much difference in actual real results; I'd say Goran had the better out wide serve. Obviously, being a lefty and the way his motion was constructed (I've used it and it's MADE for swinging the serve out wide), he got more wide serve aces than anyone. If you really want to ace someone A LOT, going out WAY wide with pace and being a lefty is the ticket.

So in that respect, Goran was better. In terms of darting one up the T with precision? I havn't seen many if any who did that as well as Krajicek. His motion just seemed perfectly aligned to go up the T, and he did so with AMAZING precision and speed. His low service toss especially seemed to aid in the effect. It was basically like a gun, such a compact motion and toss and then bam right down the T for the ace. The equivalent on the forehand would be Berasategui, he had that same time of gun type effect going for him, where the motion was so compact, and then just bam in the blink of an eye and with the flick of a wrist he could just RAIL a winner past you...guys like Gonzales and Roddick have big forehands, but they also have MASSIVE wind ups, what made Berasategui's forehand so tough was not just the pace, but it was the split-second trigger effect that Krajicek had going for him on his serve.

Goran's down the T serve was good, but not unbelievable in my opinion, but what made up for it was that his out wide serve was so unreturnable. If he hit it well, there was really nothing you could do about it even if you were sitting on it, he simply just swung you out WAY too wide. Sampras by comparison could swing you out wide too, but not to the degree Goran could.

What made Sampras' serve good was it's balance...VERY good in all categories, but I wouldn't say the absolute BEST in any. For disguise, I'd say Stich and Goran had the hardest serves to read. For shear pace, there were always a few who could stretch the radar just a little more. For pure kick, there were specialists like Rafter and Edberg. For going out wide with the slice, nobody was in Goran's league. For darting it down the middle in the blink of an eye with an equally blink of an eye, stealth motion, the best was Krajicek, etc. But Sampras was the most balanced in all these categories, of pace, spin, placement, disguise, etc. That's why OVERALL, he's the best server ever; but on *any given day* there were potentially more dominating servers...like Krajicek and Goran and Stich and Rusedski and Roddick and Philipoussis, etc. Just my opinion.

Back to the matter at hand, on the second serve; it's a toss-up. Neither got particularly tremendous kick on their seconds, a limitation of their service motions really...i.e. Krajicek not enough knee bend, and for Goran he never really set/planted his feet too well to really push up on the ball for kick. Goran's second was more or less just a slower version of his first in my opinion, same with Krajicek. Sampras on the other hand had a TRUE second serve a la Becker, in that he had a motion that made kicking serves more natural.

But overall, I give the second serve edge to Krajicek, because he was more reliable second server and not as prone to key double faults like Goran who sometimes had really shaky nerves and went for boneheaded second serve aces a la Philipoussis with very little margin/kick (it's not like Sampras who had more natural margin on seconds to go for more, because his motion simply naturally produced more kick).

On a good day though, Goran's second was more dominating than Krajicek's because he went for more and was more of a risk taker.

On an off day he could be a double fault machine just as well as he could be an ace machine.

Krajicek's second serve, however, I always thought was pretty reliable and effective. Not the best, but certainly more effective than the vast majority due to his height and placement and still good pace.

Overall, on a good day, Goran was the more intimidating server simply because there was no answer to his out wide serve if he was hitting his spots. With Sampras, for example, he didn't always get the most aces, but he got a lot of unreturnables and shanks. Well, if you're a returner, you'd rather take your chances on shanks and at least being able to reach the ball, than to not touch the ball at all, read Goran.

Just so I don't get in trouble here, Bruguera said that Goran, not Sampras' serve is the best ever. When ON, I would say that is the case...but ONLY if on. People forget that Goran had A LOT of BAD serving days too. Check out the interview comments from the Monte Carlo quarters between him and Ronald Agenor in 93 or 94 for reference. Goran was horribly inconsistent if he didn't have a good rhythm on his serve on any given day. Sampras, however, never really had any BAD serving days I feel. He was always good to great, but I wouldn't say he was ever quite superman level like Goran on his best days.
 
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