Kick serve help

[playtennis33]

I cannot for the life of me figure out how to make myself hit up on the kick serve. I watch videos and I see the stroke and the motion but I can’t do it. I am a USTA 4.5 my second serve is just a spin serve but more me coming around the ball with side spin. I see the drills online but I cannot do it. It might be a mental block. Does anyone have any ideas to help me break through. I always seem to want to hit forward and not up.

 

[2nd Serve Ace]

You just have to delay the release a beat more to get the kick action.

Also turning the grip in one bezel helps, along with a more over the head toss.

 

[chic]

I have a hard time believe you've gotten to 4.5 without the ability to kick serve. That aside it's just a different pronation direction than flat (straight thru) or slice (on the side) where the wrist is snapping up and behind the ball

 

[chic]

Oh yeah I also use a backhand grip as 2nd serve ace says, although it can definitely be done Conti. Tossing behind the head is a good learning tool but makes it hard to get the serve aggressive.

 

[Chas Tennis]

I cannot for the life of me figure out how to make myself hit up on the kick serve. I watch videos and I see the stroke and the motion but I can’t do it. I am a USTA 4.5 my second serve is just a spin serve but more me coming around the ball with side spin. I see the drills online but I cannot do it. It might be a mental block. Does anyone have any ideas to help me break through. I always seem to want to hit forward and not up.

You first have to have clear high speed video of your serve for you to determine your technique.

Forum search: kick serve gif slice
For posts with descriptions and illustrations of how the racket approaches and meets the ball.

Thread - Junior Twist Serve

https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/index.php?threads/junior-twist-serve.643500/

Has much of the videos that show racket motion and angles at impact.

If you ask yourself to describe why the racket rises you may not get what is seen in videos. It is not possible to see the racket motion without clear high speed video of about 240 fps or more.

Also the racket should be tilted forward (closed) about ~15 degrees at impact - vs about neutral tilt for a flat or slice serve. See Stosur video that I've posted showing how closed the racket face is at impact.

 

[FiReFTW]

I have a hard time believe you've gotten to 4.5 without the ability to kick serve. That aside it's just a different pronation direction than flat (straight thru) or slice (on the side) where the wrist is snapping up and behind the ball

And why would you have a hard time believing it when there are players at a far far greater level than 4.5 who don't hit a kick serve?

 

[Deleted member 769694]

And why would you have a hard time believing it when there are players at a far far greater level than 4.5 who don't hit a kick serve?

Maybe women, i dont know any mens open lvl players who dont have a kick as a 2nd. Its just too safe not to have

I cannot for the life of me figure out how to make myself hit up on the kick serve. I watch videos and I see the stroke and the motion but I can’t do it. I am a USTA 4.5 my second serve is just a spin serve but more me coming around the ball with side spin. I see the drills online but I cannot do it. It might be a mental block. Does anyone have any ideas to help me break through. I always seem to want to hit forward and not up.

Point your elbow up

 

[chic]

And why would you have a hard time believing it when there are players at a far far greater level than 4.5 who don't hit a kick serve?

Don't hit and don't know how to hit are different.

Favoring slice on the second serve is one thing. Don't know how and choose not to are not the same. Most players I've seen on that level are controlling the serve quite well, meaning they get how to pronate at least to ways. Can't imagine the third is that hard to figure out, but I'm n just a 3.5 with an overleveled serveb so maybe I'm overestimating 4.5

 

[pencilcheck]

Don't hit and don't know how to hit are different.

Favoring slice on the second serve is one thing. Don't know how and choose not to are not the same. Most players I've seen on that level are controlling the serve quite well, meaning they get how to pronate at least to ways. Can't imagine the third is that hard to figure out, but I'm n just a 3.5 with an overleveled serveb so maybe I'm overestimating 4.5

Perhaps OP meant he want Fed like kick serve? Or maybe Djokovic kick serve? Those pro level kick serve is not straightforward to learn, since it involves a lot more than technique.

But if I misunderstood what OP is trying to say and that his serve really doesn't bounce but got to play 4.5 league, maybe he is able to create good strategy with his slice serve that can still keep him in play, that is also fine.

But if OP really want some form of kick, given that he can do slice serve, have OP considered hitting slice while leaning against your back even further?

 

[Curious]

Tossing behind the head is a good learning tool

Although commonly said I don’t think this is true. Not behind the head, it’s instead to the left of the head or above the left shoulder for a righty.

 

[Happi]

maybe I'm overestimating 4.5

YES

 

[Deleted member 766578]

First step is pronation on a flat serve, if you have pronation down on a flat serve, then a kick serve is possible, if you struggle with it on a flat serve, then it will be suuuper difficult to get the right feel of the swing path - I've been trying to teach my girlfriend the kick serve for a long while, but only recently she has finally achieved a proper kick serve because I went back to square 1 by making sure she was pronating in general (which she wasn't)

 

[Curious]

First step is pronation on a flat serve, if you have pronation down on a flat serve, then a kick serve is possible, if you struggle with it on a flat serve, then it will be suuuper difficult to get the right feel of the swing path - I've been trying to teach my girlfriend the kick serve for a long while, but only recently she has finally achieved a proper kick serve because I went back to square 1 by making sure she was pronating in general (which she wasn't)

When your racket was going up to trophy position I was worried that it would drop terribly with its face open ( to the sky ) instead of on edge but to my amazement it corrected itself suddenly around trophy position. Now I can clearly see that you do a very obvious supination of the forearm at that moment and that fixes it. Are you aware of that? And do you do that supination deliberately?

 

[sredna42]

You clearly know how to swing a racquet, and hit the ball, so I'd imagine some mental cues might help you quickly.

"Swing parallel to the baseline" or "keep chest pointing at side fence" something along those lines.

When my kicker starts to get a little errant, the first thing I do is ensure I stop my rear shoulder from coming around as I swing. Which I have a feeling is probably what you are doing, as it is such a common mistake that is hard to get out of once that it is only "feeling" you know when serving.

Just my 2 cents

 

[Deleted member 766578]

When your racket was going up to trophy position I was worried that it would drop terribly with its face open ( to the sky ) instead of on edge but to my amazement it corrected itself suddenly around trophy position. Now I can clearly see that you do a very obvious supination of the forearm at that moment and that fixes it. Are you aware of that? And do you do that supination deliberately?

It's because I leave the racquet sagging when I raise it initially, for me personally, it allows me to accelerate harder towards the point of contact after the trophy position to get the most out of my kick serve

I don't personally pay attention to the start motion, because I'm more focused on the end motion - the swing after the trophy position, as long as you can get into that position, I don't think it's important as much how you get there, because if you do end up there, you've got to be doing something that's more along the lines of something right than wrong

Case in point, I can also comfortably do pinpoint stance serves, and my swingpath and setup is different, but it still works for me, just because I'm more concerned on the final sequence of the swing

Things like that is where your own preference / form / timing kicks in, rather than the base fundamentals, anyone can setup the way they are comfortable with, as long as the base is still there

 

[Curious]

It's because I leave the racquet sagging when I raise it initially, for me personally, it allows me to accelerate harder towards the point of contact after the trophy position to get the most out of my kick serve

I don't personally pay attention to the start motion, because I'm more focused on the end motion - the swing after the trophy position, as long as you can get into that position, I don't think it's important as much how you get there, because if you do end up there, you've got to be doing something that's more along the lines of something right than wrong

Case in point, I can also comfortably do pinpoint stance serves, and my swingpath and setup is different, but it still works for me, just because I'm more concerned on the final sequence of the swing

Things like that is where your own preference / form / timing kicks in, rather than the base fundamentals, anyone can setup the way they are comfortable with, as long as the base is still there

I didn’t get my answer. Do you deliberately supinate to make the racket drop on its edge? That amount of supination around the trophy position is something I’ve never seen anyone do before!
I would really like to see a slow motion video of your flat serve. I’m curious to see if you do the same there.

 

[FiReFTW]

Don't hit and don't know how to hit are different.

Favoring slice on the second serve is one thing. Don't know how and choose not to are not the same. Most players I've seen on that level are controlling the serve quite well, meaning they get how to pronate at least to ways. Can't imagine the third is that hard to figure out, but I'm n just a 3.5 with an overleveled serveb so maybe I'm overestimating 4.5

Theres quite a few WTA players that dont know how to hit a proper kick serve, they just never learned.
But the point is they never hit them and it works on that level.
Thats why its odd ud be suprized how OP is 4.5 without a kick when there are much higher players not using it.

 

[Deleted member 766578]

I didn’t get my answer. Do you deliberately supinate to make the racket drop on its edge? That amount of supination around the trophy position is something I’ve never seen anyone do before!
I would really like to see a slow motion video of your flat serve. I’m curious to see if you do the same there.

Yes and no, what i'm saying is, it's a result of my uptake motion where the racquet passes over my head and naturally coming around, because i have such little tension in my wrist / forearm , it drops in such a manner

By the time I get into trophy position, i'm just looking to swing for the ball, so yes I'm aware, but none of it is deliberate in the sense that it is forced, though I yes it's not along the lines of a fully professional style swing, but to get to that, is an easy adjustment to change for me if I wanted to, this is just what feels good for me

And yes my flat is the same

 

[Curious]

Yes and no, what i'm saying is, it's a result of my uptake motion where the racquet passes over my head and naturally coming around, because i have very such little tension in my wrist / forearm , it drops in such a manner

By the time I get into trophy position, i'm just looking to swing for the ball, so yes I'm aware, but none of it is deliberate in the sense that it is forced, though I yes it's not along the lines of a fully professional style swing, but to get to that, is an easy adjustment to change for me if I wanted to, this is just what feels good for me

And yes my flat is the same

The serve looks great anyway.
I’m quite obsessed about the on edge racket drop, something I’ve never been able to fix naturally for years. That supination you’re doing, I’ve just tried it now(shadow swing)and the racket stops opening up. Not sure though if I can do it with the ball.

 

[Happi]

The serve looks great anyway.
I’m quite obsessed about the on edge racket drop, something I’ve never been able to fix naturally for years. That supination you’re doing, I’ve just tried it now(shadow swing)and the racket stops opening up. Not sure though if I can do it with the ball.

I would not worry too much about the edge racquet drop, it looks good but not that important if you come up on edge (that is the most important).

This comes natural to @diddyac and it's good and he does not even think about it, I think the trick is to stay loose, don't worry so much, as there are several ways swinging up at the ball, and they are all good. Just go with what feels natural to you.

 

[Curious]

I would not worry too much about the edge racquet drop, it looks good but not that important if you come up on edge (that is the most important).

This comes natural to @diddyac and it's good and he does not even think about it, I think the trick is to stay loose, don't worry so much, as there are several ways swinging up at the ball, and they are all good. Just go with what feels natural to you.

Something ‘magical’ happens with that extra supination right before the racket drop. The racket flings around resulting in a spring-like effect. Do a shadow swing to feel it yourself.

 

[TennisDawg]

I have a hard time believe you've gotten to 4.5 without the ability to kick serve. That aside it's just a different pronation direction than flat (straight thru) or slice (on the side) where the wrist is snapping up and behind the ball

Not able to hit kick serve at 4.5 is not so unusual. If a 4.5 can hit flat, slice and a topspin serve he can get by. The kick serve should be a 4.5 serve but if the rest of his game is at 4.5 then the serve would not be a liability. 5.0 yes kick serve is a must.

 

[Chas Tennis]

I looked at high speed videos for 2 or 3 years to clearly see the racket motion signature that gives the kick serve. I could not find anything. I found a few examples myself.

Is everyone able to find a video where the three frames - before, during and after impact - that identify a kick serve are shown? Videos should be easy to find since there are thousands of internet videos and millions of cameras with high speed video, right? To really pin it down you would need high speed videos from the side and behind showing what the racket does and also showing the ball bounce to the right. Finding that on the internet? - I'm still looking for the first one with everything. You can find the bounces to the right, you can find the high bounces, but can you find the clear racket before, during and after impact every 4.3 milliseconds (240 fps).

Please post those kick serve videos as I think that we are all looking for some more clear videos.

Instructions- If you have a good kick serve that bounces to the right - use a smart phone that has 240 fps on a bright sunny day. Place the camera on a tripod or have someone hold it looking along the ball's trajectory. If you see the racket clearly and the bounce to the right then get a side view. Camera viewing racket so that the closest racket edge blocks the farthest edge - so that just before impact, 2" before, you can observe the closed tilt of the racket face, about 10-17 degrees. Repeat until you get that 2" before impact. If you have a strong kick serve it should take about 30 minutes to video it with smart phones. More details on videoing in Junior Twist Serve.

Welcome to the Kick Serve Nuthouse.

 

[sredna42]

Not able to hit kick serve at 4.5 is not so unusual. If a 4.5 can hit flat, slice and a topspin serve he can get by. The kick serve should be a 4.5 serve but if the rest of his game is at 4.5 then the serve would not be a liability. 5.0 yes kick serve is a must.

We don't have those level ratings here in Aus, but when I play lower ranked players they find my kick serve unplayable, which can give you this false idea that it is a solid serve.
It is really eye opening when you get a chance to play higher ranked players (4.5, 5.0 or whatever) and that same kicker that gave the other players so much trouble, these guys just crush. Played a great 16yo junior who crushed me and it was really eye opening to see how easily he could dominate the same kick serve that other players were frustrated by.

Anyway, point being that there are levels to it, I think it was rogeredjolly that 3.0-3.5 player here that said it and he was right.

 

[sredna42]

I have a hard time believe you've gotten to 4.5 without the ability to kick serve. That aside it's just a different pronation direction than flat (straight thru) or slice (on the side) where the wrist is snapping up and behind the ball

The club I play at has a core of solid players, 4.5 I'd say (guesstimating) and only one or two of them use a kicker. They all seem to predominantly use the "covered" serve (sliced flat serve? Weak slice? Dunno what you call it) with the odd big flat first serve. One or two of them do have an awesome kicker.

 

[acintya]

this should get you going:

and maybe start with a choked up grip - you will feel whats necessary to do 5x more.

 

[chic]

The club I play at has a core of solid players, 4.5 I'd say (guesstimating) and only one or two of them use a kicker. They all seem to predominantly use the "covered" serve (sliced flat serve? Weak slice? Dunno what you call it) with the odd big flat first serve. One or two of them do have an awesome kicker.

Yeah like I said above, it's not that plenty of people don't use it, just surprising when they can't infer the mechanics knowing how to slice and hit flat

 

[acintya]

all kick serve lessons look so simple because the tutor practiced it like 10 000 times. remember your ball will fly everywhere but in the court when you start from ground up - if its good to start from the service box line or not i still dont know