Kick Serve without back strain?

[JackB1]

I have been working on my kick serve and I noticed I get much more height to it when I toss the ball more behind my head than directly over it. Unfortunately this toss requires more arch to the back and hence more strain on it. My lower back is a little touchy and I once "threw it out" hitting some kickers without warming up sufficiently.

I want to develop a reliable 2nd serve, but I don't want to risk injuring my back. Is there any way to perform a kick server without straining your back?
Should I just toss over my head and add more pace, so it's more of a topspin/slice serve? I have seen guys that have high kickers that don't appear to be doing much with their bodies/back at all. How do they do it?

 

[Nellie]

As I get older, I use more legs, with a knee bend and extension to move up and through the ball instead of a back arch. Honestly, I could hit high kicking balls with just arm swing (toss over head and slightly to the backhand side). Also, your toss should be slightly forward and not behind your head, any way, so you can get up and forward through the ball with body motion.

 

[corners]

Get a subscription to tennisplayer . net and read the series of articles on the Sampras and Federer serves. The platform stance with wide foot placement, like those guys do, allows you to toss pretty far left without requiring the huge back arch you'd need if you threw that far left with the pointpoint stance. That's my experience. As long as I keep my balance and keep the toss in front (left is fine, directly over my head or behind the baseline: OUCH!) I can toss pretty far left without feeling any pinching in my back. The farther the toss goes to the left the more topspin I get (and the less speed - viola, second serve).

BTW, I hope you're talking about tossing left and not behind the baseline. Doing the latter will not only pinch your back but it'll lead to rotator cuff impingement as well. You've got to get your weight moving toward your target on serve, even when hitting spin serves and kickers.

If you want to try to learn to hit those serves, I recommend searching for threads by the poster "tricky", who gives excellent instructions for just how to do it.

 

[jmverdugo]

You could either practice to arc dorsally to your right or do some weight training to strength your lower back.

 

[JackB1]

As I get older, I use more legs, with a knee bend and extension to move up and through the ball instead of a back arch. Honestly, I could hit high kicking balls with just arm swing (toss over head and slightly to the backhand side). Also, your toss should be slightly forward and not behind your head, any way, so you can get up and forward through the ball with body motion.

I didn't mean "behind" my head, as in towards the baseline. I meant towards the left of your head, instead of directly over it, like they teach you.

 

[JackB1]

Get a subscription to tennisplayer . net and read the series of articles on the Sampras and Federer serves. The platform stance with wide foot placement, like those guys do, allows you to toss pretty far left without requiring the huge back arch you'd need if you threw that far left with the pointpoint stance. That's my experience. As long as I keep my balance and keep the toss in front (left is fine, directly over my head or behind the baseline: OUCH!) I can toss pretty far left without feeling any pinching in my back. The farther the toss goes to the left the more topspin I get (and the less speed - viola, second serve).

BTW, I hope you're talking about tossing left and not behind the baseline. Doing the latter will not only pinch your back but it'll lead to rotator cuff impingement as well. You've got to get your weight moving toward your target on serve, even when hitting spin serves and kickers.

If you want to try to learn to hit those serves, I recommend searching for threads by the poster "tricky", who gives excellent instructions for just how to do it.

Yes, I was talking about tossing more left, towards the backhand side and not behind the basline. But I think I DO need to toss more forward. I was tossing in line with my head but a little to the left of it. I need to toss more in line with my left shoulder. Maybe the back strain was because I was tossing a little behind me?

 

[Scott Baxter]

A proper toss for a kick serve should be no further forward than directly over your head. If it is too far out in front there is no way to generate the wrist snap motion that creates kick (think of the ball as a clock and you are swinging from 7 to 1). For more height use your legs and racket head speed; don't compensate with an extreme toss.

 

[fruitytennis1]

Do you twist-serve?
I find that twist serving requires a little more back-arch. I messed my arm up doing that so i just stick to pure topspin kicks

 

[LeeD]

A twist or kick serve WILL hurt your back, if you continue into your older age. Those who say it doesn't are young, or haven't hit that serve for very long.
A topspin serve might not hurt your back in the long run, tossed about atop your head but into the court somewhat.
Kick/twist and topspin serve are two different serves.

 

[SuperDuy]

They began hurting my back nearing the end of the year.

 

[LeeD]

I've probably played tennis, mostly doubles, with over 300 guys aged 50 and over, in my 34 years of tennis.
Maybe a handful tried twist/kick serves, and EVERY one of them complained about lower back problems, when they are off the court.
I'm 61, still hit one twist out of 3 second serves, and occasionally hit one as a teaser first serve. My lower back is a problem. Without problems, we're not trying hard enough.

 

[SuperDuy]

I've probably played tennis, mostly doubles, with over 300 guys aged 50 and over, in my 34 years of tennis.
Maybe a handful tried twist/kick serves, and EVERY one of them complained about lower back problems, when they are off the court.
I'm 61, still hit one twist out of 3 second serves, and occasionally hit one as a teaser first serve. My lower back is a problem. Without problems, we're not trying hard enough.

But you say you had a layoff from tennis, without that layoff you wouldn't be able to do them now, correct?

 

[LeeD]

Absolutely correct.
Right at the end of '78, when I was still able to play decently, the lefty twist out wide to most player's forehand, but over their head, was one great surprise weapon. It got weaker and weaker.
Rollie, the guy who taught me and showed how effective this serve was, was also loosing his kick height. His bud and my occasional practice partner, PeterPearson, all along thought we were wasting our time with such a back messing serve.
I took off tennis (played 2 days a week) from '79 thru '90.

 

[Ajtat411]

If there was a way to do it without much back ache I think Stefan Edberg would still be doing it.

I watched the champion series match with Edberg vs Safat and I did notice that he serves more of a topspin serve now than his crazy twist/kick serves in his heyday. Seems he uses less knee bend and that puts less stress on his back. Looks like he uses almost an eastern backhand grip for his spiny serves.

Have you tried using a more eastern style grip?

 

[LeeD]

For twists, I take my normal conti and move it slightly more EBH, try to move my body really forward at strikepoint, don't pronate too much (very little, actually), hit upwards, clear the net by 4', slow the ball down to maybe 60mph, and make it bounce at least 6' high just behind the baseline.
I can't control my opposition, and most of my peers just step inside the baseline and crush it flat down into my court .. But that's OK, if they can do that, they can't handle the low skidding lefty slice the other side..

 

[SuperDuy]

As I am a righty I try to position my body more tilted to the right, so I can get the big jump to the right on ad serves.

 

[Manus Domini]

It hurts. I used to only hit kickers/go the way of Edberg because those were the only ones I could hit naturally and get in easily. Blew out my back, couldn't move without hurting it, now only use on occasion and don't practice the kick much.

Btw, I can kick from almost whatever toss I use because I am so used to adding topspin. I threw a toss in front once and kicked it high and my coach asked how I did it.

There is no way to hit it without hurting your back. Learn to topspin-slice

 

[LeeD]

I agree totally. But having the kick for a surprise weapon is just one more weapon in your quiver.

 

[Manus Domini]

yup, just a very painful surprise

 

[JackB1]

Do you twist-serve?
I find that twist serving requires a little more back-arch. I messed my arm up doing that so i just stick to pure topspin kicks

Whats the difference between a twist and a kick serve?

 

[LeeD]

Most players would agree a twist, or AmericanTwist, curves thru the air one direction, then bounces the OPPOSITE direction, high and wide usually.
A kick serve is a high bouncing topspin serve that normally slices the way the server holds his racket.
A topspin serve is usually slightly faster, lower bouncing, hit out towards the opponent rather than upwards and outwards, is more consistent, doesn't hurt the back, but everyone can do it.

 

[Jonny S&V]

Whats the difference between a twist and a kick serve?

The 4th serve is a twist, all the others are kicks:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JeDX7TKsukE

 

[Frank Silbermann]

So what should a 55 year-old lefty rely on as a bread-and-butter second serve in the deuce court?

 

[SuperDuy]

The 4th serve is a twist, all the others are kicks:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JeDX7TKsukE

Those are some good serves johhny, that twist got up quite high.

 

[LeeD]

Bread and butter....
You serve up the middle, duece court, to get to a right hander's backhand, a leftie's forehand. You curve the ball so he has to run well into the ad court, then you are free to wrongfoot him wide to his duece court, where he came from. Topspin/slice, a topspin serve with a left to right curve.
When you play a lefty with a good forehand, turn your body more so your back faces the net, allowing your top/slice to get wide duececourt to his backhand. Once in a while, like one in 3, keep him honest by hitting the center line curving the ball well into his ad court. Long run for a lefty or rightie.
If said guy gets to both and returns decently, test his defensive skills by slicing one right into his right hip. Works against me really great, as I'm built to chase down the wide shots, but don't defend shots hit into my body well.

 

[Jonny S&V]

Those are some good serves johhny, that twist got up quite high.

Thanks, still a work in progress. Went back to basics, and am trying to build my shoulder up. Been hitting some pretty good kicks/twists lately (about chin level). Trying to get it back to forehead and beyond level. :neutral:

 

[LeeD]

Funny ding....
I hadn't practiced my twists lately, as lefty nemesis was away for a month or so....
So I hit a couple today duece court, and got the ball handed to me upside my head by a couple of 3.5's. They KNEW what was coming, as I had missed my first twist, and I'm pigheaded. Of course, both serves were short and low bouncing, maybe top of shoulder, and both times, the returner just reared back and slugged it back HARD. Of course, several times later, they'd hit the backfence trying the same thing off the same weak, short twist.
Bottom line?
Don't try a twist if you are out of practice. Keep it DEEP and well clear of the opponent's shoulders.

 

[SuperDuy]

Funny ding....
I hadn't practiced my twists lately, as lefty nemesis was away for a month or so....
So I hit a couple today duece court, and got the ball handed to me upside my head by a couple of 3.5's. They KNEW what was coming, as I had missed my first twist, and I'm pigheaded. Of course, both serves were short and low bouncing, maybe top of shoulder, and both times, the returner just reared back and slugged it back HARD. Of course, several times later, they'd hit the backfence trying the same thing off the same weak, short twist.
Bottom line?
Don't try a twist if you are out of practice. Keep it DEEP and well clear of the opponent's shoulders.

Yeah that happened to me when I first played last March I hadnt played in awhile and serves were coming back much faster then I had hit them. Cant play just 1nce a week if you want to improve. Though last year I played 5 times a week and for too long in the summer.

 

[LeeD]

I hate winter here....
It's been sunny and low 50's for 3 days now, and projected another at least 3 days. I'm trying to get some work done at g/f's house, but tennis is mid day, from 11 thru 3, and it intrudes on my projected work schedule.
Then there's this TW thing, something that distracts me for a few minutes.
Would you believe trying to collect SS benefits took me over an hour on the phone, at least 10 people, and I still haven't finished?
No wonder I'm not a real human being. I've been this distracted from work since I was 15.
Nice to get 4 hours courttime, 4 doubles sets, one singles, and some hitting practice in between thos.

 

[DeShaun]

Ground your feet and practice bending your knees deeply. Maintain your very best balance, and your tossing arm skywards. Hoisting the tossing arm and holding it up seems to demand greater balance but also to help one in the act of balancing with his shoulders tilted. Lifting, coming out of your squat, guide your racket-arm from the trophy pose, through the back scratch position to the contact point, through the "strike zone," all this, of course, while rotating your shoulders and adjusting your tossing arm to provide counterbalance. Imagine yourself bound, standing inside a cylinder three feet in diameter, and the strike zone, somewhere above, at the center of the tube. This way of doing squats improved my topspin serve by exercising my lower back muscles, which took me to arching backwards with no big problems.

 

[SuperDuy]

Ground your feet and practice bending your knees deeply. Maintain your very best balance, and your tossing arm skywards. Hint: hoisting the tossing arm and holding it there seems to demand greater balance or, perhaps, this helps one in the act of balancing with shoulders tilted. Either way, guide your racket-arm from the trophy pose, through the back scratch position to the contact point, and through the strike zone directly overhead. Imagine yourself bound, standing inside a cylinder that is three feet in diameter. This way of doing squats resulted in improvements seen in one's topspin serve.

Yes you need to get the weight moving upwards this way, imaginary walls of cylinder.

 

[LeeD]

I thought this thread was about kick serves.

 

[DeShaun]

I thought this thread was about kick serves.

He's asking how to do it without strain. I'm recommending he build his lower back muscles. I described an exercise aimed at this.

 

[LeeD]

Sounds good in theory.
But seriously, do you know anyone who can serve kick serves for longer than 20 years? Every oldster I know who used to have great kick/twisters are using slice and top/slice exclusively.
And have you been hitting twists for 10 years?
I HAVE. And know quite a few other's who have, and they don't anymore.

 

[DeShaun]

Sounds good in theory.
But seriously, do you know anyone who can serve kick serves for longer than 20 years? Every oldster I know who used to have great kick/twisters are using slice and top/slice exclusively.
And have you been hitting twists for 10 years?
I HAVE. And know quite a few other's who have, and they don't anymore.

Oh no, I'm relatively new to the tennis community and certainly don't personally know anyone who's been hitting kickers for years. Have you heard of the Van Ossen Cup? Well, my father was an elected chairman of the Van Ossen Lawn Tennis Association (we have two clay courts as well) out of Old Black Woods in Deerknoll, CT. Our little tourney regularly boasts multiple D1 All Americans among its annual entrants. Many participants actually trained, before their college careers, at the local private high school where I was a three year captain.

 

[LeeD]

All nice and peachy keen, but do you know any old farts who hit twist serves as their main second serve...or first serve?
I consider an "old fart" as someone who's played tennis for at least 3 decades at a serious level who's still trying to hit kick/twist serves NOW.
First one I saw was ArtLarsen, a 55 something old fart, try the twist on me..... he lefty, going wide to my backhand, me lefty. I lobbed it DTL and neither player moved for it... My partner was too boozed to react (GeorgePonticoff), so I kept lobbing and they didn't like it. Art became a good friend and mentor just later. You've heard of him?

 

[Jonny S&V]

Sounds good in theory.
But seriously, do you know anyone who can serve kick serves for longer than 20 years? Every oldster I know who used to have great kick/twisters are using slice and top/slice exclusively.
And have you been hitting twists for 10 years?
I HAVE. And know quite a few other's who have, and they don't anymore.

My college coach is 72, has had 3 knee surgeries, and is still kicking and twisting (and hitting mad half-volley tweeners. He's a quiet show-off).

 

[DeShaun]

All nice and peachy keen, but do you know any old farts who hit twist serves as their main second serve...or first serve?
I consider an "old fart" as someone who's played tennis for at least 3 decades at a serious level who's still trying to hit kick/twist serves NOW.
First one I saw was ArtLarsen, a 55 something old fart, try the twist on me..... he lefty, going wide to my backhand, me lefty. I lobbed it DTL and neither player moved for it... My partner was too boozed to react (GeorgePonticoff), so I kept lobbing and they didn't like it. Art became a good friend and mentor just later. You've heard of him?

LeeD, I meant to poke fun at the idea that one poster could--or would actually care to--research the validity of another poster's claim, with the idea being that, doing the research necessary would generally be prohibitively time consuming.

 

[SuperDuy]

All nice and peachy keen, but do you know any old farts who hit twist serves as their main second serve...or first serve?
I consider an "old fart" as someone who's played tennis for at least 3 decades at a serious level who's still trying to hit kick/twist serves NOW.
First one I saw was ArtLarsen, a 55 something old fart, try the twist on me..... he lefty, going wide to my backhand, me lefty. I lobbed it DTL and neither player moved for it... My partner was too boozed to react (GeorgePonticoff), so I kept lobbing and they didn't like it. Art became a good friend and mentor just later. You've heard of him?

So this was when you were playing high level tennis? Because it was 1925 art was born he won matches at 1955 us open, it says. You played against him in 1980?

 

[LeeD]

A rare breed indeed. Does he wear a backbrace and complain about his lower back?

 

[Jonny S&V]

So this was when you were playing high level tennis? Because it was 1925 art was born he won matches at 1955 us open, it says. You played against him in 1980?

That puts LeeD at supposedly 33, so probably, yes.

 

[Jonny S&V]

A rare breed indeed. Does he wear a backbrace and complain about his lower back?

Nope, never complains about anything in his game. His best (and really only) coaching advice he ever gave me was (and I quote) "Get the damn ball in," if that gives you any idea of what kind of person he is (a cool, gruff old man).

 

[LeeD]

First hit with him in '76.
By '78, he was not interested in hitting with me anymore, but would come watch my matches and offer tips.
No, I never ask old farts what their age is. Do you?

 

[SuperDuy]

First hit with him in '76.
By '78, he was not interested in hitting with me anymore, but would come watch my matches and offer tips.
No, I never ask old farts what their age is. Do you?

Nope never would, but researching him, Domonds clame is correct he was 32 at the time of 1980 and 55 would have been larsens age. Also said he was from Sanfrancisco same as Domond.

If they beat me, they'd brag about it(their age)

 

[LeeD]

Art was an old fart staple at GoldenGatePark. So was JohnMurio, GregShepard (still playing top 55's) and a host of other A/Open players. With 22 courts, and free thos days, why wouldn't top players show up for 1.5 our of reserved court time?

 

[SuperDuy]

Nope, never complains about anything in his game. His best (and really only) coaching advice he ever gave me was (and I quote) "Get the damn ball in," if that gives you any idea of what kind of person he is (a cool, gruff old man).

Some good advice here and have you redone a new video to see your improvements?

http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=357981

Serve must be better now, thos it was good then.

 

[LeeD]

Oh, and Art and company looked like hell by 1976. Boozin, partying, staying up all night, he easily could have been 65, but he could still hit twists (with a backbrace on), and jog around noisily.
His entourage was all ex decent players, all short, all smart, and all boozers.
They turned into part of my booster's club when I started to get better...."that chinaman with no sense of humor"...because I didn't drink.

 

[Jonny S&V]

Some good advice here:

http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=357981

Haha, I've been my own coach on groundies/serve for years now, so I know what works for me, I just like to see if I can't get it that SMIDGEN better. Don't worry, I'm doing fine.

 

[SuperDuy]

Oh, and Art and company looked like hell by 1976. Boozin, partying, staying up all night, he easily could have been 65, but he could still hit twists (with a backbrace on), and jog around noisily.
His entourage was all ex decent players, all short, all smart, and all boozers.
They turned into part of my booster's club when I started to get better...."that chinaman with no sense of humor"...because I didn't drink.

Yeeeup, read that too. "It was frequently written that Larsen would arrive for an important match directly from an all-night party with no benefit of sleep."

 

[LeeD]

That was well before my time. I never knew he was such a party mule until I'd known him for about a year, when he kept inviting me to these late nite sessions. Never went, who wants to hang out with some old dude?