Laver or pancho ???

[JohnYandell]

Of all the guys I've seen from the Golden Era--and there is very little decent footage--watching Pancho makes me think he could have been elite in the modern era. The serve but also his grace and speed. He may have been the most competitive guy ever to play, coming from a difficult background in an era of blatant racism with a big chip on his shoulder. When McEnroe first saw him he was in awe and said something like "when he walked on the court you could tell there was just something really really wrong" and he meant that as a compliment for the effect it had on his opponents.

 

[pc1]

Of all the guys I've seen from the Golden Era--and there is very little decent footage--watching Pancho makes me think he could have been elite in the modern era. The serve but also his grace and speed. He may have been the most competitive guy ever to play, coming from a difficult background in an era of blatant racism with a big chip on his shoulder. When McEnroe first saw him he was in awe and said something like "when he walked on the court you could tell there was just something really really wrong" and he meant that as a compliment for the effect it had on his opponents.

John,

I agree. He was the perfect height. He was smooth and agile. Vic Braden thought he had the perfect service form although I'm not sure what your analysis of it would be.

Have you ever seen this fascinating video on Pancho Gonzalez?

 

[JohnYandell]

My take on his serve is he had the most fluid and rapid internal shoulder rotation I've ever seen--except possibly for Pete. He would have adapted and improved had he grown up in the era where you could launch both feet,

And yes. That film by Gino is one of the best pieces ever made on tennis. I know him from LA and was thrilled he let us add it to Tennisplayer. How about his performance in Vegas?? Winning the Howard Hughes?? Just beyond amazing. At what age? Who did he beat?? And the interviews around that tournament...

 

[I am the Greatest!]

Isn't it said that Kramer was better than Pancho? Even Budge was said to be better than Pancho. Enlighten me here, I haven't watched them played live.

 

[dgold44]

Kramer may have dominated a young Pancho but peak pancho was far better

Pancho played in a super tough era and seem to always win
He won like 15 pro slams and even in his mid 30s was only a small notch below a ten year younger laver
He never won French pro so that is why laver has to be slightly ahead

 

[dgold44]

Pancho had a better career than even Sampras but Tilden is still the best American

 

[dgold44]

Isn't it said that Kramer was better than Pancho? Even Budge was said to be better than Pancho. Enlighten me here, I haven't watched them played live.

I believe most guys greatly disliked Pancho so that is why he was voted lower
The guy was everything

 

[pc1]

Kramer may have dominated a young Pancho but peak pancho was far better

Pancho played in a super tough era and seem to always win
He won like 15 pro slams and even in his mid 30s was only a small notch below a ten year younger laver
He never won French pro so that is why laver has to be slightly ahead

Yes but Gonzalez won a number of strong clay court tournaments like the US Claycourts in a few years and the Geneva Gold over Rosewall 8-6 6-0 on clay. Those tournaments were very important.

 

[I am the Greatest!]

I believe most guys greatly disliked Pancho so that is why he was voted lower
The guy was everything

So you guys think that Pancho is really the 2nd best? I mean, of the old guys? Not Kramer, not Rosewall? Budge?

 

[dgold44]

So you guys think that Pancho is really the 2nd best? I mean, of the old guys? Not Kramer, not Rosewall? Budge?

Yes for sure !!!!

However Tilden probably trumps them all
Did you know Tilden was winning majors in his early 40s
Plus at almost 50 he beat budge a few times who was number 1

 

[mattosgrant]

So you guys think that Pancho is really the 2nd best? I mean, of the old guys? Not Kramer, not Rosewall? Budge?

Gonzales is way ahead of Rosewall. #1 a lot longer, owned Rosewall before he got really old, etc...I am sure BobbyOne will disagree but no comparision.

Budge wasn't even best player of the 30s. Vines was.

Kramer oddly might have the best case to be over Gonzales, but I doubt it. When he fully matured Gonzales was the better player and began regularly beating Kramer when he was still quite good.

Gonzales is atleast the 2nd best post Tilden player.

 

[dgold44]

Pancho was number 1 for 8 straight yrs in a very tough 50s era

 

[dgold44]

They should count pro slams as grand slams rather than counting amateur slams as grand slams

My opinion but others here are far more knowledgable

 

[NatF]

They should count pro slams as grand slams rather than counting amateur slams as grand slams

My opinion but others here are far more knowledgable

Neither should be counted as Open Era slams. They're not comparable.

 

[dgold44]

Neither should be counted as Open Era slams. They're not comparable.

You sir need to watch more Tilden tapes
Granted it's old tapes but if u have superb eyes you can major out

 

[dgold44]

You sir need to watch more Tilden tapes
Granted it's old tapes but if u have superb eyes you can major out

Make out certain shapes and see how good he was
I hate typing on iPhone !!!!
Might be better to hear him play on radio recordings because watching something from 1922 is not easy

 

[dgold44]

Almost impossible but a very very slight nod to laver

Goats

Laver federer Pancho Tilden Sampras

Can only be 5

 

[NatF]

You sir need to watch more Tilden tapes
Granted it's old tapes but if u have superb eyes you can major out

I've seen Tilden and I know enough about his career. Still not strictly comparable even though I think he could be argued as the GOAT.

 

[dgold44]

I've seen Tilden and I know enough about his career. Still not strictly comparable even though I think he could be argued as the GOAT.

Tilden was playing at a high level to age 50

His diet was heavy smoking and steak

I rather not discuss his private life but as a tennis player he is top 5 all time
He even beat top ranked budge at almost 50

I think he died at 60
Pancho also died young

 

[hoodjem]

Who do you think is mentally tougher? Nadal or Pancho?

Right now Nadal is a basket-case.

So, it's gotta be Pancho.
(Of course maybe to his wives, he was a basket case, of a different sort.)

 

[boredone3456]

While I generally consider Laver and Federer the GOAT I would easily place Pancho at #3 on my list at this point behind them. I would also say that he is a solid contender for GOAT himself and his game was spectacular.

 

[70sHollywood]

Here is a blast from the TT past - the opening two posts from Moose are the key ones:

http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/index.php?threads/pancho-gonzales-better-than-laver.92209/

 

[Limpinhitter]

Laver, Gonzales, Borg, Federer, Sampras and maybe Djokovic soon enough. I hope his eye infections clear up quickly and easily.