Lead @ 9 & 3 o’clock Vs. @ 12 o’clock; post your experiences and conclusions.

[RMB]

For some, including TW Learning Center, adding lead tape only at 3 and 9 does expands the sweetspot to the sides and increases stability and power in the racquet. According to TW torsional stability is “one of the most common reasons for adding weight to a frame. Placing weight at the sides (3 & 9 o’clock) not only makes the racquet heavier, but will help reduce frame twisting, or torque, during off-center hits. Power will also be increased for most players.” TW Learning Center recommends 10g, that is eight strips of 5 inches (¼ inch) lead tape, and does not recommends this if the racquet is already a stock head heavy. The swingweight also increases, but apparently considerably less than @ 12 o’clock.

I use lead tape @ 9 & 3 o’clock in my Pure Control Team+, but a small amount; 6g (4 strips of 6 inches ea. ¼ lead) with very good results. Since the PC is almost 12 oz. with out lead, with such a small amount of lead, the power has increased, had more control and stability (helps me to block speedy serves better).

I never tried to put lead @ 12 o’clock alone. According to TW Learning Center “players seeking to make a racquet swing heavier, without substantially increasing overall weight should add 5-10 grams of lead tape at the 12 o’clock position, or racquet tip.” TW does not say that you are going to get more power, control or stability; just more swingweight. And according to the USRSA "If you cannot maintain racquet speed at the increased swingweight, you will actually lose power." http://www.usrsa.com/store/learningcenter/lc_swingweight.html

I'm a firm believer that adding lead t 3 and 9 is the best way to go. But I would like to hear your experiences and conclusions in this matter.

 

[bertrevert]

I have to admit to always having added small amounts of lead at 3 and 9.

However, in experimenting with SW in general, and SW2 in particular, yes I am stacking it up at 12, or rather spread around between 10 and 2 but all centred on 12.

I find those torsional problems which are effectively addressed by lead at 3 and 9 it is true, just seem to be less of an issue when you are adding 12-15g at 12 in the hoop. The SW is just that much heavier that torsional problems seem to be addressed by adding lead per se at 12.

In effect I kill two birds with one stone.

I really didn't think I could add as much lead as is asked by SW2 but if you start with a light platform it is doable. Because we add 12-15g I feel it does away with torsional problems. The serves come in fast and hard and you can block them back with adjusted and adequate prep time. I can see with this higher SW2 that I am indeed getting ready earlier on purpose, put simply, you have to.

I find lead at 3 and 9 to be a little unsatisfactory. I find it better for power you want to add lead to the neck just above the grip. Balance is unchanged too. I find lead at 12 should be counterweighted with lead at the buttcap. The spin comes in. I find just the 3 and 9 tends to alter balance and addresses some issues while creating others. Just some thoughts.

 

[dave333]

I've switched back to 3 and 9. I have ~8 grams total there. It just makes that sweetspot feel much better and bigger, there's more stability, and just has this awesome feeling.

 

[WhiteSox05CA]

I just got back from playing with lead at 12 o'clock. I noticed that it is really good for spin, and that it increases the SW noticably, even if it is only a few grams. My only problem was that it did gain power, and if I tried to hit flat improperly the ball would go long.

 

[bertrevert]

I just got back from playing with lead at 12 o'clock. I noticed that it is really good for spin, and that it increases the SW noticably, even if it is only a few grams. My only problem was that it did gain power, and if I tried to hit flat improperly the ball would go long.

The weird thing with this is that you actually have to add MORE at 12 and counterweight at the butt to achieve MORE spin. I Know I know it's weird...

 

[travlerajm]

Weight at 3&9 is the best way to increase twistweight, so it definitely improves your volleys.

But if you have to choose between weight at 3&9 and weight at 12, weight at 12 is the way to go, and heres why:

A typical stock racquet has a higher ACOR (apparent coefficient of restitution) in the lower hoop compared to the upper hoop. So your power level will vary substantially if the ball impacts an inch higher or lower along the modline of the stringbed than the spot that you normally make contact. If you hit a little low on the stringbed, your shot will likely go long. And if you hit a little too close to the tip, your shot will probably go into the net. This uneven ball repsonse makes it very difficult to control you shots, but there is an easy way to fix this problem.

If you add weight at 12, it will even out the gradient in the ACOR, so that the power level near the throat will be almost the same as the power level near the tip. This gives a remarkable increase in depth control.

But obviously, weight at only 12 doesn't help twistweight much. So ideally, you want to add weight at both 3&9 and at 12.

The nice thing about the SW2 customization method is that it addresses both the issue of evening out the ACOR by creating a positive mass gradient, as well as increasing twistweight to reduce power dropoff on off-midline impacts.

 

[travlerajm]

The weird thing with this is that you actually have to add MORE at 12 and counterweight at the butt to achieve MORE spin. I Know I know it's weird...

You are simply proving that a more polarized frame is more spin friendly.

 

[RMB]

A typical stock racquet has a higher ACOR (apparent coefficient of restitution) in the lower hoop compared to the upper hoop. So your power level will vary substantially if the ball impacts an inch higher or lower along the modline of the stringbed than the spot that you normally make contact. If you hit a little low on the stringbed, your shot will likely go long. And if you hit a little too close to the tip, your shot will probably go into the net. This uneven ball repsonse makes it very difficult to control you shots, but there is an easy way to fix this problem.

If you add weight at 12, it will even out the gradient in the ACOR, so that the power level near the throat will be almost the same as the power level near the tip. This gives a remarkable increase in depth control.

But obviously, weight at only 12 doesn't help twistweight much. So ideally, you want to add weight at both 3&9 and at 12.

The nice thing about the SW2 customization method is that it addresses both the issue of evening out the ACOR by creating a positive mass gradient, as well as increasing twistweight to reduce power dropoff on off-midline impacts.

But, what happens with the ACOR when you put more than 10g in the 9&3 position? It is supposed to change or move up right?

 

[Hughy86]

Not to hijack, but to counter the added head weight where should weight be applied to the butt? under your grip? This dosnt seem right but I'm not sure where to place lead in the grip end.

 

[morten]

i have tried it all and found 10 and 2 to work best, it always depends on the racket. I also like in the throat area, just above the grip.

 

[travlerajm]

But, what happens with the ACOR when you put more than 10g in the 9&3 position? It is supposed to change or move up right?

It will stretch the sweet spot a little, but not as much as if you put the weight higher up.

This has been proved with a controlled scientific experiment in Rod Cross's paper:

Sports Engineering, Customising a tennis racket by adding weights (2001) 4, 1-14.

 

[haerdalis]

I too started by adding at 3 and 9 and counter weight at the top of the handle. Now I add under the buttcap and from 9 to 3 via 12. Like travler said the biggest benefit for me is evening out the "sweetness" of the stringbed.

 

[morten]

Under the buttcap was terrible IMO. All the rackets i have tried it on lost all it`s characteristics. Lost power, very unstable, strange vibrations.

 

[chess9]

For some, including TW Learning Center, adding lead tape only at 3 and 9 does expands the sweetspot to the sides and increases stability and power in the racquet. According to TW torsional stability is “one of the most common reasons for adding weight to a frame. Placing weight at the sides (3 & 9 o’clock) not only makes the racquet heavier, but will help reduce frame twisting, or torque, during off-center hits. Power will also be increased for most players.” TW Learning Center recommends 10g, that is eight strips of 5 inches (¼ inch) lead tape, and does not recommends this if the racquet is already a stock head heavy. The swingweight also increases, but apparently considerably less than @ 12 o’clock.

I use lead tape @ 9 & 3 o’clock in my Pure Control Team+, but a small amount; 6g (4 strips of 6 inches ea. ¼ lead) with very good results. Since the PC is almost 12 oz. with out lead, with such a small amount of lead, the power has increased, had more control and stability (helps me to block speedy serves better).

I never tried to put lead @ 12 o’clock alone. According to TW Learning Center “players seeking to make a racquet swing heavier, without substantially increasing overall weight should add 5-10 grams of lead tape at the 12 o’clock position, or racquet tip.” TW does not say that you are going to get more power, control or stability; just more swingweight. And according to the USRSA "If you cannot maintain racquet speed at the increased swingweight, you will actually lose power." http://www.usrsa.com/store/learningcenter/lc_swingweight.html

I'm a firm believer that adding lead t 3 and 9 is the best way to go. But I would like to hear your experiences and conclusions in this matter.

It takes awhile with the heavier racquet to get the timing down. Some folks won't ever do it, but if you stick with the heavier racquet for a few weeks you'll find yourself picking up the timing. My backhand slice down the line was going wide the first few hours with my heavier racquet. So, I put it down for awhile and came back to it again and again. Now, it's a piece of cake. Just prepare that split second earlier if you can. Ditto for my serve. The racquet just wasn't snapping through the ball as well at first. My flat serves were pretty good though. After a few hours I picked up the timing and now I can hit the twist and slice serves fine.

-Robert

 

[gsquicksilver]

i just customized my ps85 with a depolarized setup...with help from travelrjam. i basically used 12 grams of lead total on the 3 and 9 oclock positions (6 inch strips, 8 strips total 1/4 inch) and used his calculations to add about 16 grams of lead to the handle about 4.12 inches from the butt. makes the swing weight come out to be in the 350's compared to 329 stock. feels great just swinging it around, doesn't feel sluggish. overall weight is now 13.5 ounces. i was thinking of going out to the courts tonight to try it out but i freakin turned my ankle last night

previously i've been using about 18 grams of lead on the 3 and 9 oclock positions (6 inch strips, 12 strips total 1/4 inch) with also 2 grams at the 12 oclock position and it actually felt great when i hit the sweet spot, but timing was thrown off a bit. swing weight was about SW2 370, but shanked more balls than i've ever shanked, but felt really good when i hit the sweet spot. that is why this time i decided to try travelrjam's method to get back a bit of a headlight feel while maintaining a heavier stationary weight. i play an all around game, but i'm trying to do more serve & volley like i used to back in my HS playing days.

 

[RMB]

Some excerpts from racquet research.

“The Effect of Mass and of Swingweight.
More mass is definitely better. More swingweight (moment of inertia) is also definitely better. The touring pros, in customizing their racquets, add mass and increase swingweight, because they know from personal experience what really works. Their customized racquets bite on the ball more, so they are able to generate heavy spin on their forehands and serves. Pete Sampras' heavily customized Wilson Pro Staff 85 (a modification of the legendary St. Vincent ProStaff, which is no longer in production) weighs 14 ounces, about the same as the old woodies, but much heavier than the heaviest racquets marketed to the public these days.

The heavier, the better. If 14 ounces sounds big to you, consider that even ladies and juniors used to play with wood racquets that weighed that much, and Don Budge won the Grand Slam with a racquet that weighed a whole pound.

Mass (in kilograms, symbol M) is a measure of the racquet's "inertia," a word that means essentially its resistance to change. The change resisted by mass is change in linear (straight-line) velocity. More mass means that the racquet will not slow down so much on impact. A short, controlled swing of a heavyweight racquet can hit the ball harder than a frantic flail of a featherweight. Same as bats in baseball: if you want home run power, bring a heavy bat to the plate. Babe Ruth's long bat weighed 52 ounces. You want a racquet that will hit through the ball, instead of bouncing off. Pete Sampras' second serve has an incredible amount of spin on it because his racquet can bite on the ball due to its high inertia on contact.
Mass is not the same thing as weight, but weight units such as ounces may readily be converted into mass units of kilograms, using the conversion factor of 1 ounce = 0.02835 kg. Swingweight (symbol I) is another measure of the racquet's inertia, but it is a different kind -- rotational inertia, or a resistance to change in a racquet's angular velocity about an axis of rotation. A useful way to understand swingweight is as the energy storage potential of a racquet. Just like flywheels, racquets store up the player's effort. A racquet with a high swingweight (I in the formulas) requires more effort to swing, but will not lose much angular velocity on impact, and will snap through the ball more, biting for more spin, especially if the strings are tight and the head is small.
…
More swingweight is good for accuracy and comfort (low Torque, Shock, Shoulder Crunch, and Elbow Crunch).
A racquet with a high swingweight takes more effort to whip around the axis of rotation, but on impact that investment pays off in better speed and accuracy. "Maneuverable" is a term loosely used to describe a racquet with a low swingweight (although there seems to be some confusion between swingweight and Moment as this term is used). Maneuverability in a racquet, under this definition, is not good, because high swingweight is good.
Two racquets that weigh the same (have the same mass) may have very different swingweights because of the way this mass is distributed. More mass to the head of the racquet, such as by adding lead tape, will increase swingweight. Although more swingweight is good, head-heavy balance is bad for your arm, so lead head tape fixes one problem (higher I) but aggravates another (higher r). Increasing r means a higher Shock, Torque, Moment, Work, Shoulder Pull, Shoulder Crunch, Wrist Crunch, and Elbow Crunch. Note that the effect of r is squared in the Shock and Torque formulas, but the effect of I is not. So lead tape to the head should be counterbalanced somehow with a tailweight. The tailweight will not affect the swingweight materially because it will be close to the axis of rotation.”

In SW2, the racquet ends head heavy? I do not like head heavy racquets and agree with the statement that "head-heavy balance is bad for your arm." Can someone clarify this part of the SW2?

 

[chess9]

Some excerpts from racquet research.

“The Effect of Mass and of Swingweight.
More mass is definitely better. More swingweight (moment of inertia) is also definitely better. The touring pros, in customizing their racquets, add mass and increase swingweight, because they know from personal experience what really works. Their customized racquets bite on the ball more, so they are able to generate heavy spin on their forehands and serves. Pete Sampras' heavily customized Wilson Pro Staff 85 (a modification of the legendary St. Vincent ProStaff, which is no longer in production) weighs 14 ounces, about the same as the old woodies, but much heavier than the heaviest racquets marketed to the public these days.

The heavier, the better. If 14 ounces sounds big to you, consider that even ladies and juniors used to play with wood racquets that weighed that much, and Don Budge won the Grand Slam with a racquet that weighed a whole pound.

Mass (in kilograms, symbol M) is a measure of the racquet's "inertia," a word that means essentially its resistance to change. The change resisted by mass is change in linear (straight-line) velocity. More mass means that the racquet will not slow down so much on impact. A short, controlled swing of a heavyweight racquet can hit the ball harder than a frantic flail of a featherweight. Same as bats in baseball: if you want home run power, bring a heavy bat to the plate. Babe Ruth's long bat weighed 52 ounces. You want a racquet that will hit through the ball, instead of bouncing off. Pete Sampras' second serve has an incredible amount of spin on it because his racquet can bite on the ball due to its high inertia on contact.
Mass is not the same thing as weight, but weight units such as ounces may readily be converted into mass units of kilograms, using the conversion factor of 1 ounce = 0.02835 kg. Swingweight (symbol I) is another measure of the racquet's inertia, but it is a different kind -- rotational inertia, or a resistance to change in a racquet's angular velocity about an axis of rotation. A useful way to understand swingweight is as the energy storage potential of a racquet. Just like flywheels, racquets store up the player's effort. A racquet with a high swingweight (I in the formulas) requires more effort to swing, but will not lose much angular velocity on impact, and will snap through the ball more, biting for more spin, especially if the strings are tight and the head is small.
…
More swingweight is good for accuracy and comfort (low Torque, Shock, Shoulder Crunch, and Elbow Crunch).
A racquet with a high swingweight takes more effort to whip around the axis of rotation, but on impact that investment pays off in better speed and accuracy. "Maneuverable" is a term loosely used to describe a racquet with a low swingweight (although there seems to be some confusion between swingweight and Moment as this term is used). Maneuverability in a racquet, under this definition, is not good, because high swingweight is good.
Two racquets that weigh the same (have the same mass) may have very different swingweights because of the way this mass is distributed. More mass to the head of the racquet, such as by adding lead tape, will increase swingweight. Although more swingweight is good, head-heavy balance is bad for your arm, so lead head tape fixes one problem (higher I) but aggravates another (higher r). Increasing r means a higher Shock, Torque, Moment, Work, Shoulder Pull, Shoulder Crunch, Wrist Crunch, and Elbow Crunch. Note that the effect of r is squared in the Shock and Torque formulas, but the effect of I is not. So lead tape to the head should be counterbalanced somehow with a tailweight. The tailweight will not affect the swingweight materially because it will be close to the axis of rotation.”

In SW2, the racquet ends head heavy? I do not like head heavy racquets and agree with the statement that "head-heavy balance is bad for your arm." Can someone clarify this part of the SW2?

Most of the SW2 racquets are simply LESS head light than retail frames, if I understand this conversation correctly. Some will be close to even in balance. My RDS001 90 is about 6 points head light with the addition of lead, though the racquet weighs 365 grams.

-Robert

 

[RMB]

Most of the SW2 racquets are simply LESS head light than retail frames, if I understand this conversation correctly. Some will be close to even in balance. My RDS001 90 is about 6 points head light with the addition of lead, though the racquet weighs 365 grams.

-Robert

Robert, how much lead you aplied to your Yonex? Where? Tx.

 

[ShcMad]

Some excerpts from racquet research.

“The Effect of Mass and of Swingweight.
More mass is definitely better. More swingweight (moment of inertia) is also definitely better. The touring pros, in customizing their racquets, add mass and increase swingweight, because they know from personal experience what really works. Their customized racquets bite on the ball more, so they are able to generate heavy spin on their forehands and serves. Pete Sampras' heavily customized Wilson Pro Staff 85 (a modification of the legendary St. Vincent ProStaff, which is no longer in production) weighs 14 ounces, about the same as the old woodies, but much heavier than the heaviest racquets marketed to the public these days.

The heavier, the better. If 14 ounces sounds big to you, consider that even ladies and juniors used to play with wood racquets that weighed that much, and Don Budge won the Grand Slam with a racquet that weighed a whole pound.

Mass (in kilograms, symbol M) is a measure of the racquet's "inertia," a word that means essentially its resistance to change. The change resisted by mass is change in linear (straight-line) velocity. More mass means that the racquet will not slow down so much on impact. A short, controlled swing of a heavyweight racquet can hit the ball harder than a frantic flail of a featherweight. Same as bats in baseball: if you want home run power, bring a heavy bat to the plate. Babe Ruth's long bat weighed 52 ounces. You want a racquet that will hit through the ball, instead of bouncing off. Pete Sampras' second serve has an incredible amount of spin on it because his racquet can bite on the ball due to its high inertia on contact.
Mass is not the same thing as weight, but weight units such as ounces may readily be converted into mass units of kilograms, using the conversion factor of 1 ounce = 0.02835 kg. Swingweight (symbol I) is another measure of the racquet's inertia, but it is a different kind -- rotational inertia, or a resistance to change in a racquet's angular velocity about an axis of rotation. A useful way to understand swingweight is as the energy storage potential of a racquet. Just like flywheels, racquets store up the player's effort. A racquet with a high swingweight (I in the formulas) requires more effort to swing, but will not lose much angular velocity on impact, and will snap through the ball more, biting for more spin, especially if the strings are tight and the head is small.
…
More swingweight is good for accuracy and comfort (low Torque, Shock, Shoulder Crunch, and Elbow Crunch).
A racquet with a high swingweight takes more effort to whip around the axis of rotation, but on impact that investment pays off in better speed and accuracy. "Maneuverable" is a term loosely used to describe a racquet with a low swingweight (although there seems to be some confusion between swingweight and Moment as this term is used). Maneuverability in a racquet, under this definition, is not good, because high swingweight is good.
Two racquets that weigh the same (have the same mass) may have very different swingweights because of the way this mass is distributed. More mass to the head of the racquet, such as by adding lead tape, will increase swingweight. Although more swingweight is good, head-heavy balance is bad for your arm, so lead head tape fixes one problem (higher I) but aggravates another (higher r). Increasing r means a higher Shock, Torque, Moment, Work, Shoulder Pull, Shoulder Crunch, Wrist Crunch, and Elbow Crunch. Note that the effect of r is squared in the Shock and Torque formulas, but the effect of I is not. So lead tape to the head should be counterbalanced somehow with a tailweight. The tailweight will not affect the swingweight materially because it will be close to the axis of rotation.”

In SW2, the racquet ends head heavy? I do not like head heavy racquets and agree with the statement that "head-heavy balance is bad for your arm." Can someone clarify this part of the SW2?

Like Robert said, in most cases, if you start out with a decently-head light racquet, you shouldn't end up with a head-heavy balance. Of course it's gonna be less headlight; however, that's not as big of a problem as being a couple points head-heavy. My Head Prestige should be about 356 grams with a swingweight of 365. It should still be around 5-6 pts. headlight. I really like this setup for 2-handed backhands; however, i prefer a 9-10pts. headlight balance for 1-handed backhands.

 

[chess9]

Robert, how much lead you aplied to your Yonex? Where? Tx.

With an overgrip and dampener added, the racquet was 351 grams. So, I added 14 grams, with 4 grams at 9, 4 grams at 3, and 6 grams at 12. I have no clue what the swingweight is, but it is pretty high.

Also, I just strung it with 19 gauge kevlar at 68 psi. I wanted to try that setup for control. I'm hoping it doesn't kill my arm. I took it out of the bag on Thursday night at a men's double's night-it was 4 below zero inside-and hit with it for 5 minutes and decided I'd better wait for warmer weather. I dragged out my nCode 90 with gut so I could rip out my tendons and ligaments instead of full muscle bellies.

-RObert

 

[RMB]

With an overgrip and dampener added, the racquet was 351 grams. So, I added 14 grams, with 4 grams at 9, 4 grams at 3, and 6 grams at 12. I have no clue what the swingweight is, but it is pretty high.

Also, I just strung it with 19 gauge kevlar at 68 psi. I wanted to try that setup for control. I'm hoping it doesn't kill my arm. I took it out of the bag on Thursday night at a men's double's night-it was 4 below zero inside-and hit with it for 5 minutes and decided I'd better wait for warmer weather. I dragged out my nCode 90 with gut so I could rip out my tendons and ligaments instead of full muscle bellies.

-RObert

Tx Robert. Why you did not add weight in the handle or the bottom of the racquet?

 

[Gee]

Some excerpts from racquet research.

"Pete Sampras' heavily customized Wilson Pro Staff 85 (a modification of the legendary St. Vincent ProStaff, which is no longer in production) weighs 14 ounces, about the same as the old woodies, but much heavier than the heaviest racquets marketed to the public these days."

"The heavier, the better. If 14 ounces sounds big to you, consider that even ladies and juniors used to play with wood racquets that weighed that much, and Don Budge won the Grand Slam with a racquet that weighed a whole pound."

"Pete Sampras' second serve has an incredible amount of spin on it because his racquet can bite on the ball due to its high inertia on contact."

Here you can find a few pictures of Sampras' frames... A lot of lead at 3 and 9! Or is there lead under the bumper as well?

http://homepage.mac.com/gregraven/tennis/PhotoAlbum21.html

 

[larry10s]

. I dragged out my nCode 90 with gut so I could rip out my tendons and ligaments instead of full muscle bellies.

-RObert

robert its nice to see after your bout with ge that you are being cautious