Lockout Machine - Tension Differential

[Mvboiler]

I searched the board extensively for an answer and couldn’t find one, so thought I would post to see if anyone can help.

I recently bought a used Ektelon Model H - it was a great price and in great shape. I tested the tension with a digital fish scale and it was light by about 10 lbs. I adjusted the tension head accordingly and got it properly calibrated.

I strung up last night with ALU Power at 55 lbs. I added 3 lbs on the final strings to make up for tension loss when finishing my knots. I pulled the racquet off and measured with both a string tension tester and the racquet tune app and both came back exactly at 42lbs.

I realize now that I should have upped the tension probably 10% to take into account it was a lockout but even that wouldn’t have made up for the 13 lb differential. I didn’t see any slippage on the clamps and I did not pre-stretch.

Is this normal? Should I increase the tension more than 10%? Anything else I should look at on the machine or my stringing technique? Thanks in advance for any help.


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[Rabbit]

What you're seeing is dynamic tension versus reference tension and it applies to every machine. Your reference tension is the machine tension, 55 in this case. The dynamic tension is the tension in the racket, 42 in this case. It is called dynamic tension because it changes from the time you tie the last knot until it breaks or is cut out. String continues to elongate.

I would not change a thing. I would play with the racket and if it feels good, continue to use 55 as your reference tension. If it's too (one way or the other), change your reference tension +/- 3 pounds. I would strongly caution you against putting too much stock in dynamic tension. Rather, go by what feels good.

This is absolutely normal and there is nothing wrong with either your machine or your string job.

 

[Irvin]

poly string resists stretching more than most strings. So when the LO engages the poly is still resisting the stretch. then after a few seconds it relaxes a good bit and you lose tension. Try double pulling.

 

[Rabbit]

IME double pulling on a crank is a waste of time with little to no benefit in the final product.

 

[Irvin]

Removing 2-3 mm of string length will increase the tension resulting in a higher measured tension. Pulling twice does not increase the tension over reference tension it simply recovers lost tension due to the string relaxing. What have you got to lose it just takes a little longer. Tension a string, run in the next one, then retension the original string, and move your clamp. For tie of strings, if you want to use a knot tension, tension the tie off at reference tension, bump up the tension by whatever you want for knot tension, retension your tie off again, move clamp, and tie off. Don’t forget to reset to reference tension. Here is a video that show double pulling does make a difference.

 

[Irvin]

@Mvboiler if you try it let us know how it comes out. Many other stringers will turn the crank slower to allow more stretching of the string just before it locks out. This will accomplish the same thing but I think the time it take to run in the next string works better because you’re removing more of the relaxation in the string. Also it takes more time to run in a cross string than a main. The main may only take you about 5 seconds where the crosses may take 20 seconds or longer. JC’s JET method uses a 5 second pull on the mains and a 20 second pull on the crosses but he uses a constant pull machine. The only way one can emulate a constant pull with a LO is to to retension the string after a waiting period.

 

[jim e]

You can pull same string twice as mentioned, but how much time in between and will that time be the same each time, or pull string at slower speed, but if you go that route are you doing the exact same time each pull, but maybe best just to get in a groove with same speed, and just increase tension if that is what you desire. That way it keeps things more consistent, as if you string racquet same way each time consistently is best, and that's what stringers strive for consistency.
Another option is to get a Wise tension head, and
then your all set

 

[Rabbit]

I agree with @jim e . It's been my experience that working with your tension is by far the best solution. I have never found a benefit in double pulling, pulling at a certain speed, or leaving a string locked out for X number of minutes. The best thing to do is find your tension and string the racket. In doing this, you'll find yourself spending less time stringing and more time playing. I fully employ the KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid) method with regard to stringing.

 

[esm]

. I fully employ the KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid) method with regard to stringing.

(Btw - are you still waiting....? )

 

[Rabbit]

@esm yes, but my hopes are fading @uk_skippy

 

[sportmac]

Something I've been wondering about regarding this.

After pulling a string the string loses tension until you clamp it.
What if instead of undoing the clamp then applying it to the pulled string you put a starter clamp on (between the frame and the crank - on the outside of the frame) and then applied the inside clamp to the string?
If you could do that almost immediately would that stop the tension loss sooner than undoing and applying the inside clamp?

Any thoughts?

 

[MAX PLY]

^^^ I suppose that might accomplish what you think you want. But it strikes me as cumbersome. I suggest just relying on your reference tension (see posts 7 & 8) and use that as your guide. The stark fact of the matter is that all machines have slight differences in the results coming from their reference tension (and strings differ and clamps differ and techniques differ and so on (e.g., for my frames, my reference tension for my multi of choice is 54 on an Ektelon H, 51 on my buddy’s Baiardo, and 85 on a Klippermate (Kidding)). Just discover what works for you (and/or your customers) and try to be as consistent as possible. Even more so than age, it’s just a number.

 

[sportmac]

^^^ I suppose that might accomplish what you think you want. But it strikes me as cumbersome. I suggest just relying on your reference tension (see posts 7 & 8) and use that as your guide. The stark fact of the matter is that all machines have slight differences in the results coming from their reference tension (and strings differ and clamps differ and techniques differ and so on (e.g., for my frames, my reference tension for my multi of choice is 54 on an Ektelon H, 51 on my buddy’s Baiardo, and 85 on a Klippermate (Kidding)). Just discover what works for you (and/or your customers) and try to be as consistent as possible. Even more so than age, it’s just a number.

I agree, I'm just curious. I've read about this issue for years and just thought I'd ask out of curiosity as I've never seen it mentioned as a possible work around.

Like you, I'm a firm believer in consistency. I've been stringing for a few friends for years and they know when they take that backup out of the bag it's going to play the same as the one it replaced.

 

[Irvin]

Something I've been wondering about regarding this.

After pulling a string the string loses tension until you clamp it.
What if instead of undoing the clamp then applying it to the pulled string you put a starter clamp on (between the frame and the crank - on the outside of the frame) and then applied the inside clamp to the string?
If you could do that almost immediately would that stop the tension loss sooner than undoing and applying the inside clamp?

Any thoughts?

it does not matter how you clamp it the string will lose tension after being clamped. But your suggestion will actually work. Why? Because you will need to tension that string again to get the starting clamp off Therefore you recover the lost tension. That being the case why even use the starting clamp just allow the tensioner to hold the string.

 

[Rabbit]

@sportmac - don't overthink the process or "outthink" it. You said the folks you string for "know that when they take that backup out of the bag it's going to play the same as the one it replaced". Do think about that, because that says it all. That says that your technique and process don't require any fiddling. Why add 20 - 30 minutes extra fiddling time to a frame for no benefit? Your clients are already happy with the final product. Aren't you as well?

Strings lose tension. From the time you tie off until the time you cut them out they lose tension. How much is dependent on a plethora of factors. But, and remember this, the amount of tension lost by a string after you clamp it off is inconsequential in the larger scheme of things and not worth worrying about. That's why they include a tension knob with each and every stringing machine! If it's too lose, next time bump up the tension.

 

[sportmac]

@sportmac - don't overthink the process or "outthink" it. You said the folks you string for "know that when they take that backup out of the bag it's going to play the same as the one it replaced". Do think about that, because that says it all. That says that your technique and process don't require any fiddling. Why add 20 - 30 minutes extra fiddling time to a frame for no benefit? Your clients are already happy with the final product. Aren't you as well?

Strings lose tension. From the time you tie off until the time you cut them out they lose tension. How much is dependent on a plethora of factors. But, and remember this, the amount of tension lost by a string after you clamp it off is inconsequential in the larger scheme of things and not worth worrying about. That's why they include a tension knob with each and every stringing machine! If it's too lose, next time bump up the tension.

Rabbit, not to worry, I just like reading the threads and see what people are up to. I have no intention of changing anything but that doesn't stop the curiosity and the thinking about different approaches. I've certainly tried a few things over the years but more just for fun on my own racquets. It's more a mental exercise than anything else.

My first stringer was a Tremont T-145 so I've had lots of time to settle into a good solid routine!

 

[Rabbit]

@sportmac - Me too! I had a Tremont Tr-2(?) as my first machine. Yeah, I don't discount these other ideas without trying them first. And I can tell you that I've tried enough that about 5 years ago I arrived at the conclusion that stringing a racket is a very simple thing and you need to keep it one. The more simple, the better. There are a few on the boards who are always seeking a better way; and good for them. As for me, I'll just keep using tried and true practices much the the guys who do this at the bigger venues.

The best thing that ever happened to me stringing-wise was stringing for a WTA local event for about 15 years. Those players are picky. If you can keep them happy, you know you're doing something right. How did I keep them happy? I pulled string, tensioned, and tied off. I didn't pull tension and start a stop watch or try some wacky-assed pattern, I just strung them like God intended. That experience taught me that the straightforward way is the best way.

 

[MAX PLY]

^^^ Let's make it a Tremont trifecta. First machine I owned was a TR-"I can't remember" (bought it from an ad in the back of Tennis magazine for about $60 in 1973 or so). Mounted it to a barstool so I had an upright!

 

[Irvin]

^^^I mounted mine on the end of my workbench In the garage. Then winter came and I moved inside to a Prince MP-100.

 

[Rabbit]

^^^ Let's make it a Tremont trifecta. First machine I owned was a TR-"I can't remember" (bought it from an ad in the back of Tennis magazine for about $60 in 1973 or so). Mounted it to a barstool so I had an upright!

Holy Crap! Mine was mounted to a barstool!!!!!

While all this joy is being spread around, let us not forget what a POS the Tremont was

 

[MAX PLY]

^^^Oh, I think POS is a bit harsh. When I first got it, I already sort of knew how to string (had done a few racquets on an Ektelon B or C) and I knew it was going to be slower. I am guessing my first racquet I strung on it took at least an hour but I think I managed to get my average time down to 40 minutes or so for a standard wood frame. The flying clamps worked ok but I did harshly crimp a few sets of Blue Star. But, hell, I had a machine and I was a racquet stringer. Saved a ton of money too. Got lucky a couple of years later and picked up an Ektelon D in excellent condition for about $200 (had to borrow 100 bucks from my dad but had a pretty good paper route too then so I could pay him back without too much pain) plus sold the TR to a buddy for $40 including the stool (which by the way, was a huge upgrade, clamping that sucker to a coffee table to string was a PITA--plus my feet fell asleep). Hardly a POS, it was the birth of a future "racquet technician."

 

[sportmac]

If anyone is interested in a walk down memory lane...

https://www.****.com/itm/Vintage-Tr...DefaultOrganic&_trksid=p2047675.c100012.m1985

that's the 'bay