Low Balls

[Dan R]

I played a guy in my flex league, who had one of the most unique games I've seen, and frankly he's the best player I've played in the league. He's crushing everyone in the league (which means he won't be in this league for long). He kept everything low, I mean really low, but he hit top spin. He didn't hit a single slice the entire match - these balls where harder to deal with than a slice. He hit with reasonable pace not too hard, and had pretty good net clearance, and liked to hit behind me. The balls were well placed in a corner or down the line but not right at me. If he hit to me I had time to step in and take the ball before it got low. By the time I got to the ball it was at ankle height.

I asked him about it after the match and he said he learned that hitting it low meant getting the ball low at the point of contact, not necessarily low over the net. He said you want to minimize the time between the first bounce and the second bounce - that's what hitting low means - that's all I could get out of him. I looked and can't find any instruction or discussion of this online (there's plenty on how to handle low balls). Anyone play this way, have any tips or thoughts on this?

Hitting topspin is fine but the ball sits up and it can give people a chance to run down the ball and often puts the ball in the strike zone, I'd like to add this to my game as another tool, but it's not as easy as he made it look.

 

[ByeByePoly]

Sounds like he controlled points with low trajectory to wide targets ... my kind of guy. I don't see how his topspin would have much to do with it. I assume his "hit from low" is just a way of saying take the ball early off the hop.

???

btw ... I hit down the middle like twice a year ... but on those I was aiming for a sideline.

 

[ByeByePoly]

Extend the circles in this video to baseline, and that is how I have always played, and many from my "era". Basically target wide ... both short and deep ... try and keep opponent moving even if opponent is doing same to you. Why hit right to someone unless it's a date.

 

[Dan R]

Nice video, I miss Kirby.

I think it was a combination of relatively low net clearance (1-2 feet over the net), a little bit but not too much topspin, and moderate pace. That way he got the ball to skid a bit, and the spin seemed to drive the ball back down after the bounce rather than up like when there's a lot of top spin. He was all over my serve, not with hard hit returns - it was the opposite he hit them moderately but the ball just got down after the bounce so fast - and his placement was really good. I was had some success hitting it deep with spin and getting the ball out of his strike zone, and making him move - he wasn't the fastest guy in the world. Oddly, I broke his serve 5 times and still lost 6-4 6-3. I played well, but he's was a lot better than me.

I started to practice this, but I tend to hit with too much spin and pace, which normally is good, but I guess there's more than one way to skin a cat (I'm not sure if that's literally true, but it's still a good expression).

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

What do you mean by minimize the time between the first bounce in the second bounce? Are you referring to the incoming ball? Doesn't seem that you would have any control over that. Are you trying to say, the ball should be hit on the rise, shortly after it has bounced?

Or are you referring to your own outgoing ball? This doesn't make sense either.

If he hits with reasonable pace (but not overwhelming pace) and has pretty good net clearance, then I would conclude that his topspin balls are actually somewhat flat. Somewhat like the way that Agassi hit his forehands. He drove thru the ball with a forward swing that was relatively shallow (Vic Braden indicated that the rise on Andre's forward swing was only about 20 degrees on average). He hit with some topspin but I believe it was about 1700 rpm or so, on average. Some players hit with even flatter than this.

For comparison, Roger typically hit his Fh with 2500 rpm (or more). Rafa's average is closer to 3200 rpm (with some extreme spins in the 5000 rpm neighborhood).

 

[J011yroger]

Where I come from, we call that slapping the ball.

J

 

[ByeByePoly]

Where I come from, we call that slapping the ball.

J

Where you come from bow ties are acceptable ... and AC isn’t required.

How is it going Indiana Jones?

 

[ByeByePoly]

Nice video, I miss Kirby.

I think it was a combination of relatively low net clearance (1-2 feet over the net), a little bit but not too much topspin, and moderate pace. That way he got the ball to skid a bit, and the spin seemed to drive the ball back down after the bounce rather than up like when there's a lot of top spin. He was all over my serve, not with hard hit returns - it was the opposite he hit them moderately but the ball just got down after the bounce so fast - and his placement was really good. I was had some success hitting it deep with spin and getting the ball out of his strike zone, and making him move - he wasn't the fastest guy in the world. Oddly, I broke his serve 5 times and still lost 6-4 6-3. I played well, but he's was a lot better than me.

I started to practice this, but I tend to hit with too much spin and pace, which normally is good, but I guess there's more than one way to skin a cat (I'm not sure if that's literally true, but it's still a good expression).

I only searched for the video because it was Kirby ... I would hit the ball to Kirby.

 

[Dan R]

What do you mean by minimize the time between the first bounce in the second bounce? Are you referring to the incoming ball? Doesn't seem that you would have any control over that. Are you trying to say, the ball should be hit on the rise, shortly after it has bounced?

Or are you referring to your own outgoing ball? This doesn't make sense either.

If he hits with reasonable pace (but not overwhelming pace) and has pretty good net clearance, then I would conclude that his topspin balls are actually somewhat flat. Somewhat like the way that Agassi hit his forehands. He drove thru the ball with a forward swing that was relatively shallow (Vic Braden indicated that the rise on Andre's forward swing was only about 20 degrees on average). He hit with some topspin but I believe it was about 1700 rpm or so, on average. Some players hit with even flatter than this.

For comparison, Roger typically hit his Fh with 2500 rpm (or more). Rafa's average is closer to 3200 rpm (with some extreme spins in the 5000 rpm neighborhood).

Sorry for the confusion. I'm referring to the my opponents shot, and by getting down fast I mean there's very little time between when the ball initially bounces and the second bounce. If you hit the ball with a lot of top spin it pops up in the air and there's a fair amount of time before it bounces again.

I think you're correct, he was cutting back on the topspin (but still enough that he didn't have to skim the net) and cut back on the pace which meant the first bounce is near mid court and the second bounce near the base/side line. That's about where I would intercept the ball and that's the point where you want it to be low.

 

[Dan R]

Where I come from, we call that slapping the ball.

J

He wasn't doing that, but that can work too.

 

[Born_to_slice]

Does he finish his fh across the lower part of torso/hip? Those usually stay low.

 

[Slicerman]

How deep did his shots land? And how high over the net did he hit the ball?

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

Sorry for the confusion. I'm referring to the my opponents shot, and by getting down fast I mean there's very little time between when the ball initially bounces and the second bounce. If you hit the ball with a lot of top spin it pops up in the air and there's a fair amount of time before it bounces again.

I think you're correct, he was cutting back on the topspin (but still enough that he didn't have to skim the net) and cut back on the pace which meant the first bounce is near mid court and the second bounce near the base/side line. That's about where I would intercept the ball and that's the point where you want it to be low.

Clear but still not quite sure what you mean by the second bounce. If the ball bounces twice, the point is obviously over.

Is the first bounce the one on thei incoming ball? And the second bounce is the bounce on around outgoing ball? If so, that seems like an odd way to state it.

 

[pencilcheck]

Would be nice to see some vid but my guess is that they are good at hitting through the ball and it creates spin along with it so he can control it because the ball will not go wide.

 

[travlerajm]

My regular current hitting partner hits exactly like described. He’s very consistent hitting moderate paced shots mostly flat with only a couple feet of net clearance. His game matches up well against me - his passing shots are really, really good, so he’s tough to approach against. So he plays me close.

The funny thing is that there are a couple guys in our current singles league that “love” his ball. It goes right into their strike zone, and they dominate against him. But those same guys think my game is a nightmare to play against, and I always beat them easily. I always give them a mixture of low slices and deep high topspin loopy balls, but nothing in between.

 

[user92626]

Where you come from bow ties are acceptable ... and AC isn’t required.

And everybody wears baseball cap backward.

 

[Dragy]

Clear but still not quite sure what you mean by the second bounce. If the ball bounces twice, the point is obviously over.

Is the first bounce the one on thei incoming ball? And the second bounce is the bounce on around outgoing ball? If so, that seems like an odd way to state it.

I think he means the ball comes in such a way that after first bounce it doesn't come high, peaks relatively early and descends to bounce second time very soon, timewise or distance-wise (by baseline?). So the receiving player needs to either rush in for the bounce peak (which is still not high) or scramble the ball low. I believe it's a low trajectory, moderately paced ball, and likely not very bouncy court. BTW @Dan R did you use new balls?

 

[ByeByePoly]

Clear but still not quite sure what you mean by the second bounce. If the ball bounces twice, the point is obviously over.

Is the first bounce the one on thei incoming ball? And the second bounce is the bounce on around outgoing ball? If so, that seems like an odd way to state it.

He is just saying it get on the ground quickly by the second bounce near his baseline.

So this is the tennis version of Goldilocks porrige just right:

- big spin, bounces high and does not get down quick
- flat, bounces long and does not get down quick
- just right spin, ball becomes a ground hugger like a gopher running for it's hole

Got's some doubts about this one ... I hit my flat "slap" off-pace dtl that hits around service line and after bounce it has the energy of @J011yroger in the morning before his coffee. I just don't see adding a pinch of spin making that sucker seek ground any faster. I'm going to be pissed if I left some opponent torture on the table.

 

[EddieBrock]

Nice video, I miss Kirby.

I think it was a combination of relatively low net clearance (1-2 feet over the net), a little bit but not too much topspin, and moderate pace. That way he got the ball to skid a bit, and the spin seemed to drive the ball back down after the bounce rather than up like when there's a lot of top spin. He was all over my serve, not with hard hit returns - it was the opposite he hit them moderately but the ball just got down after the bounce so fast - and his placement was really good. I was had some success hitting it deep with spin and getting the ball out of his strike zone, and making him move - he wasn't the fastest guy in the world. Oddly, I broke his serve 5 times and still lost 6-4 6-3. I played well, but he's was a lot better than me.

I started to practice this, but I tend to hit with too much spin and pace, which normally is good, but I guess there's more than one way to skin a cat (I'm not sure if that's literally true, but it's still a good expression).

What happened to Kirby? I miss her too

 

[ubercat]

I have played a guy like this.If u imagine u be short hopped a low FH u d produce a similar ball. Especially if the incoming ball was spinning to the right. And generally there s a bit of windshield wiper in your reply shot. He would be moving back and hitting these balls low. What I am surprised at is lack of movement. As your further back in court u need hell wheels to play this way.

 

[ubercat]

Kirby should start her own channel. I d watch it even if she was teaching double handed forehands.

 

[golden chicken]

You might want to note if your typical rally ball bounces around 4-5 feet high. This gives your opponent an easy shot to hit flat and he can choose how hard he wants to hit it. If he is playing conservatively, that's exactly how I would expect his shots to behave.

 

[Dan R]

He is just saying it get on the ground quickly by the second bounce near his baseline.

So this is the tennis version of Goldilocks porrige just right:

- big spin, bounces high and does not get down quick
- flat, bounces long and does not get down quick
- just right spin, ball becomes a ground hugger like a gopher running for it's hole

Got's some doubts about this one ... I hit my flat "slap" off-pace dtl that hits around service line and after bounce it has the energy of @J011yroger in the morning before his coffee. I just don't see adding a pinch of spin making that sucker seek ground any faster. I'm going to be pissed if I left some opponent torture on the table.

This is what I mean. I think you described it perfectly. With the slice you can get a low skidding ball that stays low after the bounce, or a ball that sits up after the bounce - I suspect there's a similar effect with a forehand. A lot of top spin the ball bounces up. If it's flat it stays low but it stays in the air for a while (and it's hard to clear the net), but it you get it just right then can have enough top spin to have decent net clearance, and not too flat so that the top spin helps drive the ball down rather than up after the bounce. That's what it seemed like.

It was also his placement, because you have to hit this ball away from your opponent to create enough time for the ball to get low. If he hit it right at me I could just step up and take the ball at it's peak and he was in trouble.

I think a good combination would be a deep top spin ball into the corner to drive the person back and then follow up with one of these shots to the other side of the court or behind the person (he did that a lot).

 

[Dan R]

What happened to Kirby? I miss her too

I don't know, but she left Essential Tennis a few years ago and I haven't heard anything since. Kind of like Holly Sonders if you ever watched the Golf Channel. She left for the bright lights of Fox and no one has seen her since. Oh well, such is life.

 

[sredna42]

Where I come from, we call that slapping the ball.

J

Spot on. I used to play a guy who gave me trouble for the longest time, he'd slap the ball, almost hit down on it. The ball would come through low, and almost skid.
He would only play on his home courts where the ball kept low, and would only play with his own old tennis balls that had nearly no felt left, and were really hard, like artificially pressurized in one of those pressure retaining cans, so the balls would go through the court super fast, and skid low. Figured him out in the end, and instantly he didn't want to hit any longer.

 

[ByeByePoly]

We caught a break Dan was talking about “low bouncing” and not “low hanging”

More than one kind of floater

 

[Dan R]

We caught a break Dan was talking about “low bouncing” and not “low hanging”

More than one kind of floater

Well there's that problem too, but that less said the better

 

[ByeByePoly]

Well there's that problem too, but that less said the better

Yeah ... your title could have taken an ugly turn ... split step not optional.