Masters of Touch Shots

[hoodjem]

Guys, how about we expand this topic to not just drop shots but touch shots in general, like lobs, changes of angle, spin and pace etc?

Many of these Masters of Dropshots were great in these areas also.

I'm game. I love to see some wizard with incredible finesse "beating up" on a power player by running him crazy: back and forth, forth and back, lobs and drop shots, over and over--frustrating as hell.

The poor power player has not been to the net in years; he thinks he can just blow people off the court with his mega-serve and forehand. But against the wizard, he can't get any rhythm, can't find his range. He gets so run around and exhausted in the first set, he has to tank the second two.

What are the "touch shots"?
Lobs
Drop/stop Volleys
Baseline drop shots

 

[Manus Domini]

A few:

Rosewall, had like no power in him [comparitively] but perfect timing and the best slice to ever grace the sport of tennis. He v. Lew Hoad was a good example for what the OP was talking about

Fred Perry: fully wrist, I would call them touch but they aren't of the usual kind.

Bobby Riggs: pro-junk baller lol, do I need to say more?

Federer: two words--Roger Federer

Santoro: Safin basically said something along the lines of "I would rather get a tooth pulled than play him again". Probably one of the best examples for this is Santoro-Safin

LeeD, because everything off of his bh wing is deified and god-like :lol:

There are more, but that list should suffice for now.

 

[borg number one]

Two great left handed players come to mind. John McEnroe was such a wizard with touch shots. At his best, he also had substantial power, so he'd bring the heat and use touch very deftly in combination with the use of power. Since he could hit his serve, volleys, and groundstrokes with substantial pace, his "change up" shots, were even more effective. Yet, they weren't effective purely because of the surprise factor.Even if anticipated, his touch shots were deadly.

One player I've seen that could match him in terms of both power and quite possibly finesse was Rod Laver. His firepower, like the case of McEnroe, made his touch shots even more effective than they would have been had he not had such firepower in tandem with great touch. These are two left handers, so perhaps the fact that they were both lefties made their shots that much more difficult to read and deal with (since ALL players, even lefties are more accustomed to right handed shots).

 

[Manus Domini]

how'd I forget the lefties?

 

[kishnabe]

Defintly McEnroe and Laver are above the rest! Does Gerulatis enter that list...from what I saw...he has those type of shots.

 

[robow7]

Someone who could mix it up a lot was the "Big Cat". Lots of off pace, ungodly angles and touch. Unfortunately he didn't hang around long enough. He was fun to watch though and gave the best fits.

 

[mental midget]

rios. while i'd never suggest his career be mentioned in the same breath as the names above, this is one category in which i think he earned a place of distinction.

 

[tudwell]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s-VolX8dtkE

 

[abmk]

mac, federer,laver,rosewall,mecir.santaro,rios,nalbandian

 

[pc1]

Bobby Riggs might have most famous for his lobs. He was also great at drop shots, changes of pace etc.

Others would be Rosewall, Laver, McEnroe, Mecir, Tilden, Nastase, Segura, Gonzalez.

 

[urban]

One of the shots, where most finesse is required, is the half-volley. Its not easy to play a shot from the ankles and shoes, mostly without eye- contact with the ball. And not simply to pop it into the other side, but to hit it just in the right way, with pace and lenght. Some could even play it near the baseline. Cochet was a master of this shot, as was Mac, who nearly played all his shots as if it were half-volleys.

 

[pc1]

I'm game. I love to see some wizard with incredible finesse "beating up" on a power player by running him crazy: back and forth, forth and back, lobs and drop shots, over and over--frustrating as hell.

The poor power player has not been to the net in years; he thinks he can just blow people off the court with his mega-serve and forehand. But against the wizard, he can't get any rhythm, can't find his range. He gets so run around and exhausted in the first set, he has to tank the second two.

What are the "touch shots"?
Lobs
Drop/stop Volleys
Baseline drop shots

The famous 1975 Wimbledon final had Arthur Ashe who normally was a all out power player playing the role of the touch artist against Jimmy Connors, the power player. It was a beautiful example of how touch can be used to handle power. Of course Ashe could use his great power when needed.

I used to really enjoy it when Orantes was in full flow against Connors, Vilas or Ashe. He seemed to handle it so easily. We all tend to think of a player getting "hot" as overpowering an opponent but sometimes I used to get the impression Orantes would get "hot" with his touch game and it just all seemed so easy and flowing.

You talk about cat and mouse. Orantes would seem to do whatever he wanted with the ball.

I felt the same about Mecir except he could do it on all surfaces.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z2bzlj4ypvw

The point at about 4:19 here is impressive to me because so many players would let the ball bounce but Mecir was so quick to hit the ball out of the air after he set Mats up with the slow crosscourt backhand.

I guess of the GOAT candidates the true master would be Ken Rosewall with his lobs, some drop shots, angles, half volleys etc.

If you are talking about variety of spin you would of course name Laver. I think Borg with his super heavy high topspin loops and how he could hit low slice would bother opponents also.

Santana was able to hit heavy backspin on some of his shots so it would bounce back to his side of the court. Now that's fun to watch.

Here's one point from the famous Laver/Rosewall 1972 WCT final. It has lobs, half volleys, overheads, great gets. Touch and power.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rSXETXKi7OI

 

[Wicked4hand]

Mcenroe n santoro

 

[hoodjem]

Tweener lob:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wyXGGSf6gzc&NR=1

 

[krosero]

I felt the same about Mecir except he could do it on all surfaces.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z2bzlj4ypvw

The point at about 4:19 here is impressive to me because so many players would let the ball bounce but Mecir was so quick to hit the ball out of the air after he set Mats up with the slow crosscourt backhand.

That point happens to bring up an issue concerning how you take stats. Mecir takes this swinging forehand volley and he's well behind the service line when he does it, so in a lot of ways the shot looks like a passing shot. But should it really be counted as a pass? Mecir is rushing forward, toward the net, like he's going to cut off whatever he can as soon as he can get to it. So to me he's playing a net point. His volley might be well behind the service line but that's a result of his thinking outside the box there.

That may be more a stat-taking issue then anything, and not directly related to the thread. Except maybe in the sense that diverse players do think outside the box and they might be more likely to create such mixed situations. The standard thing would have been for Mecir, since he wasn't anywhere near the service line, to think that he had to wait for a bounce, and to hit a groundstroke for a pass. But his mind -- and his feet! -- were quick enough to do something different.

Anyway it's the unorthodox stuff like this, that's really memorable.

 

[urban]

Two touchplayers from the 60s were Ramanathan Krishnan (and later his son Ramesh, a wonderful pure ball striker, maybe the purest i have seen) and Mexican Rafa Osuna, who died in a plane chrash in 1969. By all accounts, Osuna must have had a wonderful half volley game. Some British experts on Wimbledon like Pigeon and Tingay marvelled about a first round match in 1964 between Santana and Osuna. Fellow Mexican Raul Ramirez also had a fine silky game.

 

[pc1]

That point happens to bring up an issue concerning how you take stats. Mecir takes this swinging forehand volley and he's well behind the service line when he does it, so in a lot of ways the shot looks like a passing shot. But should it really be counted as a pass? Mecir is rushing forward, toward the net, like he's going to cut off whatever he can as soon as he can get to it. So to me he's playing a net point. His volley might be well behind the service line but that's a result of his thinking outside the box there.

That may be more a stat-taking issue then anything, and not directly related to the thread. Except maybe in the sense that diverse players do think outside the box and they might be more likely to create such mixed situations. The standard thing would have been for Mecir, since he wasn't anywhere near the service line, to think that he had to wait for a bounce, and to hit a groundstroke for a pass. But his mind -- and his feet! -- were quick enough to do something different.

Anyway it's the unorthodox stuff like this, that's really memorable.

My opinion (which generally means nothing) is that it is a winning volley. This type of volley rarely happens nowadays. Players do hit swing volleys from mid court or so but that's often on a fairly easy shot. In some ways to me the Mecir shot is a type of touch shot because he was able instinctively to react and know he could position himself for the winning volley. In any rate he did set himself up for the winning volley with the soft crosscourt touch shot.

 

[BTURNER]

My opinion (which generally means nothing) is that it is a winning volley. This type of volley rarely happens nowadays. Players do hit swing volleys from mid court or so but that's often on a fairly easy shot. In some ways to me the Mecir shot is a type of touch shot because he was able instinctively to react and know he could position himself for the winning volley. In any rate he did set himself up for the winning volley with the soft crosscourt touch shot.

Pc I disagree I am beginning to think we need to define the term. None of that distinguishes a touch from any other well hit doubles volley at all. I do not see a swing volley as a 'touch' shot. It may clever, it may be outside the box thinking, it may be positionally the right stroke for the rally, and demand fine timing, but it is not designed to take pace off for its execution. matter of fact it ususally adds accerlation, doesn't it? Its a form of a volley pass mutated from a ground stroke motion.

 

[borg number one]

PC1, he was great to watch. I agree. Mecir was a great athlete, with great touch and skill. He had fabulous anticipation, a great set of wheels, and great hands. I think that he stayed with a wood frame in the pros longer than almost anyone else.

 

[kiki]

Bobby Riggs might have most famous for his lobs. He was also great at drop shots, changes of pace etc.

Others would be Rosewall, Laver, McEnroe, Mecir, Tilden, Nastase, Segura, Gonzalez.

Those in this list are really wizzard players, but, this list is uncomplete.

Patty,Larsen, Drobny, Lacoste,Santana,Pietrangeli,Orantes,Panatta,Mayer must be added to that list.As for top spin lobs, Vilas and for sliced lobs, Connors deserve that honour, too.

Edberg and Cash had a deadly touch at the net, even if they were not your typical finesse player.They are semi-finesse players, then.

 

[kiki]

Two touchplayers from the 60s were Ramanathan Krishnan (and later his son Ramesh, a wonderful pure ball striker, maybe the purest i have seen) and Mexican Rafa Osuna, who died in a plane chrash in 1969. By all accounts, Osuna must have had a wonderful half volley game. Some British experts on Wimbledon like Pigeon and Tingay marvelled about a first round match in 1964 between Santana and Osuna. Fellow Mexican Raul Ramirez also had a fine silky game.

In my list of all time greatest wizzards, I forgot Cochet - half vollye master- and, of course, the indians; the 2 Krishnan, but I´d also include, for his great touch volley and efortless groundies, the great Vijay Amritraj, one of the funniest players to see in the 70´s and early 80´s.At Wimbledon, they still remember his 1979 effort against Borg and his 1981 effort against Connors.

 

[pc1]

In my list of all time greatest wizzards, I forgot Cochet - half vollye master- and, of course, the indians; the 2 Krishnan, but I´d also include, for his great touch volley and efortless groundies, the great Vijay Amritraj, one of the funniest players to see in the 70´s and early 80´s.At Wimbledon, they still remember his 1979 effort against Borg and his 1981 effort against Connors.

I was a big fan of Vijay. The man had every shot. Not too many players had the combination of touch and power that he had. I think he was one of those players that everyone feared because on a given day he could even crush top players.

Andres Gimeno was an excellent touch player with a great lob.

I was thinking about some of the great lobbers I have seen. Here are some names-Laver, Rosewall, Nastase, Borg, Orantes, Lendl, Connors, Agassi and even Newcombe. There are a ton of players with great topspin lobs now but I think the defensive lob isn't as good as it used to be. I think the topspin lobs are better than ever but the defensive lobs aren't as deep as they were in the past in general imho.

 

[abmk]

^^^

uhh, hewitt, santaro, murray ? federer isn't bad at them either

Edit: I'd almost forgotten nalbandian, he isn't bad at them either

 

[krosero]

I felt the same about Mecir except he could do it on all surfaces.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z2bzlj4ypvw

The point at about 4:19 here is impressive to me because so many players would let the ball bounce but Mecir was so quick to hit the ball out of the air after he set Mats up with the slow crosscourt backhand.

That shot there, just before 4:19, with Mecir taking the ball in the air, is very similar to one pulled off by Nalbandian against Federer, at 8:06 here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4XOBP3N1ejc
(2005 Masters Cup)

 

[hoodjem]

That shot there, just before 4:19, with Mecir taking the ball in the air, is very similar to one pulled off by Nalbandian against Federer, at 8:06 here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4XOBP3N1ejc
(2005 Masters Cup)

Yes, very similar. It does look like Fed's shot might be higher in the air.

 

[kiki]

I was a big fan of Vijay. The man had every shot. Not too many players had the combination of touch and power that he had. I think he was one of those players that everyone feared because on a given day he could even crush top players.

Andres Gimeno was an excellent touch player with a great lob.

I was thinking about some of the great lobbers I have seen. Here are some names-Laver, Rosewall, Nastase, Borg, Orantes, Lendl, Connors, Agassi and even Newcombe. There are a ton of players with great topspin lobs now but I think the defensive lob isn't as good as it used to be. I think the topspin lobs are better than ever but the defensive lobs aren't as deep as they were in the past in general imho.

To develop your lob you need to face a net player; so, it is almost impossible today cause there aren´t any.

I agree with Gimeno; quite underrated but always feared - and respected- by some all time greats like Gonzales ( whom he teeamed up in doubles) Laver ( who, in a tournament I recall seeing with other 7 legends, praised him as a close friend ) and Rosewall.In fact, had tennis open happen a few years before 1968, he and Santana could have given Spain its first DC title - they would make the strongest team on clay by that time-.

Your lobbers list is pretty good.I remember also some great lobs from Gonzales ( old pros had a great lob, they needed it in ultrafast courts like wood, specially with the attacking abilities of that time).Vilas and Wilander, also had pretty good ones, and so did Gerulaitis, when he was tunned up.

As for Vijay, we miss such a character; he was one of the best representatives ( in talent terms, not in overall results) of that magic era.And one of the best grass court naturals I remember of.

 

[krosero]

Yes, very similar. It does look like Fed's shot might be higher in the air.

Yes Mecir had to take a swinging volley to get the ball over, while Nalby was able to make a conventional punching volley.

I just thought it was cool to find two such similar points nearly 20 years apart.

 

[hoodjem]

Yes Mecir had to take a swinging volley to get the ball over, while Nalby was able to make a conventional punching volley.

It does appear that Mecir has to scoop it more from below waist height, whereas Nalbandian is able to punch it from shoulder height. But very similar nevertheless.

I just thought it was cool to find two such similar points nearly 20 years apart.

Very true.

 

[pc1]

Yes Mecir had to take a swinging volley to get the ball over, while Nalby was able to make a conventional punching volley.

I just thought it was cool to find two such similar points nearly 20 years apart.

Yes it is pretty interesting.

 

[kiki]

Cochet,Von Cramm,Drobny,Patty,Krishnan ( both),Pietrangeli,Rosewall,Santana,Nastase,Orantes,Panatta,Mayer,Amritraj are the male players that had the outstanding touch shots, even if some others, like Laver, Pecci,Ashe,Newcombe could play some finesse tennis as well.

 

[BTURNER]

Lets also not forget the soft angle shot designed to pull an opponent way off the court, I think C
ollins used to refer to it as the 'solly slop' as Harold Solomon used it to great affect.

 

[kiki]

and of course, there are more in the ladies ranks...starting with the 4 fairies, of course...

 

[DMP]

Two touchplayers from the 60s were Ramanathan Krishnan (and later his son Ramesh, a wonderful pure ball striker, maybe the purest i have seen) and Mexican Rafa Osuna, who died in a plane chrash in 1969. By all accounts, Osuna must have had a wonderful half volley game. Some British experts on Wimbledon like Pigeon and Tingay marvelled about a first round match in 1964 between Santana and Osuna. Fellow Mexican Raul Ramirez also had a fine silky game.

Ram(anathan) Krishnan had the softest hands of anyone I have ever seen play tennis. Incredibly soft touch. I wish there was film/video to show him in action.

 

[kiki]

Yeah¡ Ramirez was a classy guy with an all round game and great movement.he was a sort of Vitas Gerulaitis who peaked like 3 years before Vitas did.Ramirez prime was 1974-1978 and Vitas 1977-1982.

He and Gottfried were one of the most appealing doubles teams I recall of.Just behind the amazings Hewitt and Mc Millan in that sense.

 

[kiki]

Ram(anathan) Krishnan had the softest hands of anyone I have ever seen play tennis. Incredibly soft touch. I wish there was film/video to show him in action.

2 Krishan and Amritraj...there is a mystic indian conection for touchy shots.

 

[JAY1]

I think can only be players who had touch on all their shots.
Laver.
Nastase.
McEnroe.
Federer.

 

[helterskelter]

How about a mention for hicham arazi?

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

Patricia Tarabini, from Argentina, was a master of touch, deception and creative shot-making. Always enjoyed watching her play doubles; did not get to see her play when she was at the top of her singles game (never quite made it to the top in singles tho'). Quite often, she would make other players look foolish with her deception & touch shots. Once in a while, particularly against Hingis, her tricks would backfire. Miss watching her play.

Monfils seems to have a fair amount of touch. Have seen him hit quite a few drop shots that bounced back(ward) over the net. Santoro, McEnroe & Federer are other favorites.

 

[BTURNER]

We haven't included much on women here. I never know if its an intention and another thread is in order or not.

Well here's a list of women nominees. The obvious first King, Goolagong, Evert, Navratilova and Hingis come to mind as top players and, believe it or not Monica Seles. There are some others like Tarabini, Kournikova, Durr, Mandlikova, Zvereva, and Sanchez.

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

^ Monica Seles! I believe it not. I don't remember that much touch or variety in her game. I guess she could hit deecnt drop/touch shots but I just don't remember for it. I mostly recall her playing with her throttle fully open -- even when warming up or practicing. I am reminded of a story told by Jim Courier. He had asked Monica to warm up with him. However, he quit after a short time (5 mins?) because she started off at full speed -- trying to hit winners from the get-go.

I agree that Hingis, Kournikova, Tarabini and some of the others that you've mentioned were very adept at drop/touch shots. First time I saw Hingis in person (before her rise to #1), she hit several drop shots on her opponent's first serve.

 

[BTURNER]

^ Monica Seles! I believe it not. I don't remember that much touch or variety in her game. I guess she could hit deecnt drop/touch shots but I just don't remember for it. I mostly recall her playing with her throttle fully open -- even when warming up or practicing. I am reminded of a story told by Jim Courier. He had asked Monica to warm up with him. However, he quit after a short time (5 mins?) because she started off at full speed -- trying to hit winners from the get-go.

I agree that Hingis, Kournikova, Tarabini and some of the others that you've mentioned were very adept at drop/touch shots. First time I saw Hingis in person (before her rise to #1), she hit several drop shots on her opponent's first serve.

I know most people did not see how much feel Monica had in those hands and wrists. It was there though. An awful lot of her baseline drives were actually half-volleys if you think about where she stood when she hit them and the pace they would have to handle. She had great disguise on her droppers on both wings for exclusive use on clay courts, and Seles used some nice soft acute angles from anywhere on the court. One rarely saw her topsin lobs, but she did have them in her arsenal as well. I'd argue that she did not use them enough even vs those few s/vers she faced !

It sure helped her touch shots that everyone was constantly standing a foot further back to gain some time on those cannonshots that were her mainstay.

 

[Flash O'Groove]

Does Patty Schnyder qualify? I never really followed the WTA, but I liked to see her play.

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

Does Patty Schnyder qualify? I never really followed the WTA, but I liked to see her play.

Don't really recall her touch shots. I enjoyed watching her play despite her unorthodox forehand (some would even characterize her FH motion as ugly).

 

[monfed]

Baseline drop shots? Can't see past Fed.

 

[Rosewall]

Some random thoughts:
Ille Nastase had a gorgeous all court game with incredible imagination and touch from anywhere. He was brilliant. Miloslav Mecir was in a similar mold. One of the funnest guys ever to watch play. He moved the ball all over the court and you couldn't tell where he was going with the ball until he hit it. Great job disguising both the forehand and especially the backhand. Amazing touch.

I showed my 16 year old son (a natural serve and volleyer) some Mac highlights on Youtube. He could not believe the complete lack of fundamentals. McEnroe would just race to the net and flick a drop shot for a winner like it was the easiest thing in the world. No knee bend at all. It was all fast twitch muscle fiber, instinct, and insane hand-eye coordination. Mac said he used to volley with just the middle and ring finger gripping the racquet to get more maneuverability and touch. Best hands I ever saw.

Borg was underrated at the net. He started volleying more late in his career with good success. It would have been interesting to see how his game might have evolved.

Anyone remember Connors volleying the ball from just a step or two inside the baseline? His two-handed backhand stab of a slice volley from just inside the baseline is still one of the weirdest shots I've seen in pro tennis. The guts to even attempt that in a match and he used it IIRC to throw off Borg. Though I wouldn't rank Connors touch as among the best, he was also an underrated volleyer.

 

[kiki]

In the 60´s, I´d go with Santana,Laver,Rosewall and Bueno, with some contribution from Pietrangeli.Krishnan and Gimeno, too

In the 70´s, we had Frew Mc Millan,Roche ( he had a great touch even if not being your typical finesse player),Orantes,of course Nastase,Panatta,Gene Mayer,Amritraj, mexican Raul Ramirez, brittish Mark Cox, the classy and elegant italian Bertolucci, Poland´s Wojtek Fibak, and Victor Pecci ( for some time) and, of course Goolagong and Durr among the women ( I´d also include here Rosie Casals).I think Evert was also solid as a dropshoter but not a classical touch player.Navrrtilova, when she became a complete player later on, was also capable of the best touch shots.Gerulaitis should also be included here and I am probably leaving out a fews.

Mandlikova, Jaeger,and for a while Bunge and Ruzici, and of course Mc Enroe,Krishnan and Amritraj are the most distinguished touch players of the 1980´s.And when Leconte and Gomez were on, they were as good as anybody else; I have seen Gomez make amazing volley or backcourt drop shots and was a great defensive lobber.Finally, Mecir, whose feeling was uncredible and, being such a particular player with an untransferable style, me thinks he fits perfectly in the description of a touch player.

In the 90´s, we had, of course Hingis and Kournikova, but I think Martinez,Sabatini and, at the net Novotna could also be mentioned with the best.As for the men, there were not classical touch players but the feel and sense of the ball Bruguera,Korda,Rios and Stich had was certainly pretty remarkable.

In the current times, Federer, Nalbandian and some french guys like LLodra and Santoro can be mentioned as having good touch.And a guy with a nice timing is also underrated Costa, the spanish FO champion in 2002 and one of the most watchable clay court players of his generation.

1970´s as a whole and the first half of the 80´s were clearly the greatest times for touch players.of course, wooden rackets helped a lot but Gene played with an oversized graphite...

 

[vive le beau jeu !]

How about a mention for hicham arazi?

i was about to ask the same question... and then i saw your post.