Muscle growth in comparison to body proportions?

[AlphaCDjkr]

Hey there, I've been wondering about something for a while. This is just for personal knowledge, though I may utilize this in the future..

When working on muscle growth and hypertrophy, is it possible for muscle to grow to the point where it will actually change bodily proportions?

Like, it seems that people with an overall larger build have the greater capacity to build muscle mass. Kind of like, I've never noticed someone who was once "skinny" become "buff", they always become just lean/toned, and no further. Same goes when someone who was originally large, they seem to always be the ones who gain the most muscle mass, to dramatically grow in size.

After researching a little about the various body types, (ecto/endo/mesomorph), I just wondered if it was possible for one that was skinny to gain noticable muscle mass (so that the waistline/shoulders/chest/etc. could actually become larger/wider).

I'm really sorry if this question is vague, I was kind of having trouble putting this question together in the first place.. I hope you know what I'm getting at.

 

[plasma]

going from ecto to meso is very difficult. Some bodies that are naturally 155 can go up to 165, some can go up to 195+ with strength training. There is no set formula as not all bodies in a set type adapt similarly.
Just like there is no ideal weight for a specific height, there is no absolute formula for capacity to go from ecto to meso.
I used to be ecto and gained noticeable depth and thickness in the shoulders, back, arms and chest.
Are you looking to do the same?
It's harder than it looks but well worth it when you get there.

 

[AlphaCDjkr]

going from ecto to meso is very difficult. Some bodies that are naturally 155 can go up to 165, some can go up to 195+ with strength training. There is no set formula as not all bodies in a set type adapt similarly.
Just like there is no ideal weight for a specific height, there is no absolute formula for capacity to go from ecto to meso.
I used to be ecto and gained noticeable depth and thickness in the shoulders, back, arms and chest.
Are you looking to do the same?
It's harder than it looks but well worth it when you get there.

Yes and No. Currently, I'm not interested in it, I kind of want to become a little more toned/less bodyfat by the end of this summer so I look more fit when I go off to college (UC Santa Barbara.. BEACH! heh :??? However judging by how far I can get this summer (by the end of a year) I might or might not

Also, regardless of what I TRY to do, my weight stays put at 130 lbs. I was 125 (8 months ago). It's really annoying, I've been trying to gain weight (healthy weight, of course..) It kind of sucks, I'm not exactly getting anywhere..

 

[Pwned]

Depends on your definition of buff. Also depends on your definition of the terms ectomorph/mesomorph/endomorph since they are pretty ambiguous.


http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/toddblue.htm

There are plenty of bodybuilders who started as ecto/mesomorphs. Frank Zane was the lightest O winner ever at ~190lbs. He was short too but definitely much thinner than the other guys.

Bertil Fox

Nasser El Sonbaty

 

[Kobble]

^^^Proves that 'roids change the whole thing quick.

 

[Pwned]

^^^Proves that 'roids change the whole thing quick.

No doubt. However, with a constistent and well put together weightlifting program and a good diet you can grow without steroids. No matter the body type. Being consistent would probably be the hardest. Adding muscle takes time, especially if you are a hard gainer.

 

[subaru3169]

if you want to gain weight and get bigger, you've gotta eat big.. don't eat junk though

 

[Caloi]

Edward Norton (the actor) is very thin. Take a look at him for his role in American History X. He's a lot bigger and ripped. Granted we all don't have person chef's, trainers, etc to achieve such feats, it is possible.

 

[Rickson]

Are you kidding? Most of the IFBB pros were once thin. How did they get so huge? Good anabolics. I'm not recommending them by any means, I'm just saying that body types don't mean **** compared to anabolics.

 

[Kobble]

Edward Norton (the actor) is very thin. Take a look at him for his role in American History X. He's a lot bigger and ripped. Granted we all don't have person chef's, trainers, etc to achieve such feats, it is possible.

I think actors take steroids to get up for those roles. We know Arnold, and Stallone did, but some of these guys make ridiculous gains in 6 months or less. With small amounts of steroids, those gains are very attainable. I've hard it takes about 3 years to get a pro physique with adequate anabolics. Imagine what could be done in 4 months.

 

[plasma]

hey AlphaJoker, you're stunting your growth if you touch a weight brutha. If your off to college and 130 your probably 17, and
got another growth spurt in you unless you stunt your growth permanently with 6 months of hard lifting.

Playing tennis will strech out your bones as you grow. I played every day growing up and it shows. Avoid the weight room, 25-50 push ups a day and tennis, nothing else, unless you want to stay small.

 

[maverick66]

now you can stretch out your bones? how the hell does that happen? i wanna know how to stretch my bones.

and stop spreading the lies. lifting does not stunt growth. next your gonna tell me the earth is flat.

 

[Pwned]

hey AlphaJoker, you're stunting your growth if you touch a weight brutha. If your off to college and 130 your probably 17, and
got another growth spurt in you unless you stunt your growth permanently with 6 months of hard lifting.

Playing tennis will strech out your bones as you grow. I played every day growing up and it shows. Avoid the weight room, 25-50 push ups a day and tennis, nothing else, unless you want to stay small.

Arnold started weightlifting at 13-14. He is 6'2". Quit making **** up. I cannot believe you truely think what you post is fact. Please stfu.

 

[cncretecwbo]

Yes and No. Currently, I'm not interested in it, I kind of want to become a little more toned/less bodyfat by the end of this summer so I look more fit when I go off to college (UC Santa Barbara.. BEACH! heh :??? However judging by how far I can get this summer (by the end of a year) I might or might not

Also, regardless of what I TRY to do, my weight stays put at 130 lbs. I was 125 (8 months ago). It's really annoying, I've been trying to gain weight (healthy weight, of course..) It kind of sucks, I'm not exactly getting anywhere..

how are you "trying" to gain weight. the only way to gain weight is to eat more. if you arent gaining you arent eating enough to gain; its simple

 

[AlphaCDjkr]

Are you kidding? Most of the IFBB pros were once thin. How did they get so huge? Good anabolics. I'm not recommending them by any means, I'm just saying that body types don't mean **** compared to anabolics.

Ok. I was really confused on the whole body type subject and was kinda hoping that you would pop up and educate me a little, heh. Thanks.

hey AlphaJoker, you're stunting your growth if you touch a weight brutha. If your off to college and 130 your probably 17, and
got another growth spurt in you unless you stunt your growth permanently with 6 months of hard lifting.

Playing tennis will strech out your bones as you grow. I played every day growing up and it shows. Avoid the weight room, 25-50 push ups a day and tennis, nothing else, unless you want to stay small.

That isn't my name . And anyway, I don't think I have another growth spurt, as I had another thread earlier discussing scoliosis: My chiropractor looked at my X-rays (6 months or so ago) and said something about my bones being nearly finished growing (low cartilage..) or something along those lines. He specifically told me that the likelihood of my scoliosis progressing is low as most of my bones have finished growing... Unless I can still have a growth spurt after that? No, right?

how are you "trying" to gain weight. the only way to gain weight is to eat more. if you arent gaining you arent eating enough to gain; its simple

I kind of meant that I was playing tennis more often, getting hungrier, eating more often, eating more protein and blah. If I eat more for the sake of eating more, won't most of the weight gain be fat?

 

[chess9]

Are you kidding? Most of the IFBB pros were once thin. How did they get so huge? Good anabolics. I'm not recommending them by any means, I'm just saying that body types don't mean **** compared to anabolics.

Ditto-esque.

Those guys are on huge amounts of steroids. Many of them are taking 3-8 times the therapeutic dose of testosterone! I'm surprised more of them don't keel over before age 40.

I've had skinny legs my whole life. At one time, when I was lifting seriously I got to 232, yet I still had 25 inch quads! Yet, I can put on muscle in my upper body very easily. I've seen guys who can build quads like a tractor, but have shoulders Sharapova wouldn't want. Getting huge and balanced is damned hard. Gotta' have great genes to look perfect in your jeans. For tennis, I'd recommend a very strong core, very strong legs, and strongish upper body.

-Robert

 

[Stchamps]

I kind of meant that I was playing tennis more often, getting hungrier, eating more often, eating more protein and blah. If I eat more for the sake of eating more, won't most of the weight gain be fat?

If you're lifting weights then no you really won't put on any fat, especially since you must have a really fast metabolism if you weight like 125.

 

[AlphaCDjkr]

If you're lifting weights then no you really won't put on any fat, especially since you must have a really fast metabolism if you weight like 125.

That's good to know, heh.

Thing is I'm not doing anything physically productive right now. Tennis season ended 2 weeks ago, and school ends in 2 weeks. I'm rushing to work on my finals and stuff, devoting the time to studying (aka not playing tennis for some period of time..) After school ends and my summer frees up, I'm going to try to go to the gym more often.

I'm trying to keep the goal short term to three months, as in September I'm going to college (yay!) and I can't trust that I'll keep my promise to myself to work out often once I'm there.. heh.

 

[maverick66]

you will gain some fat. if you are on a bulking phase then you will gain fat. but the good news is you will also gain muscle and its not to difficult to cut that fat later. dont worry about fat to muscle ratio in a bulking phase. You want to eat like a horse so that your body grows. then you will lower your calorie intake once you get up to size and this will give you the size and tone body that you want.

 

[AlphaCDjkr]

you will gain some fat. if you are on a bulking phase then you will gain fat. but the good news is you will also gain muscle and its not to difficult to cut that fat later. dont worry about fat to muscle ratio in a bulking phase. You want to eat like a horse so that your body grows. then you will lower your calorie intake once you get up to size and this will give you the size and tone body that you want.

Oh, cool. Direct feedback, yay! Er, by eat like a horse, do you actually mean drastically overstuff myself, or do you mean just eat more than usual? :X I'm hoping it's the latter.

 

[maverick66]

just intake more than you normally do. you dont have to sit and eat 24 hours a day but you need to up the calories. if you are working out hard and playing tennis you should be eating alot of food anyway.

when i was in my teens i dont ever remember not eating. i played and worked out all day so anytime i wasnt doing either i was eating. to give you an idea i weighed 90lbs when i started highschool. i was tiny. by the time i was out of high school i was 190. yes i grew alot height wise but i also was in the gym at least 3 times a week. once i started lifting alot i was hungry all day long.

 

[plasma]

what height were you when you graduated?

 

[maverick66]

6 foot 1 inch

 

[plasma]

they don't make em like us anymore. I got to be even a bit taller. The kids these days live off of candy. I remember kids in HS having your stats...teens don't eat real nutritious food anymore, you rarely see those athletic kids these days. I think it's because of junk food diets.

 

[AlphaCDjkr]

they don't make em like us anymore. I got to be even a bit taller. The kids these days live off of candy. I remember kids in HS having your stats...teens don't eat real nutritious food anymore, you rarely see those athletic kids these days. I think it's because of junk food diets.

I hope you aren't talking about me...

Although you are quite right that diets these days do suck. HS food, "Designed to provide a nutritious and wholesome meal.." is total BS when they serve you pizza and nachos and blah (My school serves absolute garbage every day. Less than half a portion to make me full, I go into tennis an hour later starving. And it's all junk food, except for these chicken sandwiches that are supposedly healthy [yet small and flavorless]) Then I gotta go home 2 hours later and hope to god there's something good in the fridge (there never is) and wait another hour for dinner to be ready.. Thank god this summer I"ll be able to make my own lunch for myself

 

[Rickson]

Wait a second, plas. Why are push ups acceptable and weights unacceptable? Doing push ups are a form of lifting weights; your bodyweight. As a matter of fact, most kids would be pushing more weight with push ups than with a barbell if they're just starting out. Your theory just flew out the window right there. If you believe weightlifting stunts your growth, you should not promote calisthenics.

 

[Slicendicer]

^^^Proves that 'roids change the whole thing quick.

Dudes, I hate to break it to you, but roid's is like 1/4 of the answer to getting ripped like that. Roid's don't do **** unless you eat like a freaking horse, eat well, and lift like a freaking monster 2x a day 5 days a weeks. You could run 1000 mg's of test and 400 mg's of tren a week or any "advanced" stack you find on the internet sites... if you don't eat 5000 "clean" cals and 2x per lb body weight of protein and lift like crazy, you'll get no result or even worse, you'll just get fat.

Roids isn't the answer. A good diet, a good workout routine (including rest), and time for your body to develop is the right way.

 

[Slicendicer]

Hey there, I've been wondering about something for a while. This is just for personal knowledge, though I may utilize this in the future..

When working on muscle growth and hypertrophy, is it possible for muscle to grow to the point where it will actually change bodily proportions?

Like, it seems that people with an overall larger build have the greater capacity to build muscle mass. Kind of like, I've never noticed someone who was once "skinny" become "buff", they always become just lean/toned, and no further. Same goes when someone who was originally large, they seem to always be the ones who gain the most muscle mass, to dramatically grow in size.

After researching a little about the various body types, (ecto/endo/mesomorph), I just wondered if it was possible for one that was skinny to gain noticable muscle mass (so that the waistline/shoulders/chest/etc. could actually become larger/wider).

I'm really sorry if this question is vague, I was kind of having trouble putting this question together in the first place.. I hope you know what I'm getting at.

it's all about the diet and weight lifting routine. research dieting ideas for gaining mass, but do not implement until 6 weeks into a 4x a week workout routine. depending on your age, supplements will help... i take 2 natural "testosterone" boosters and 2 precursor test prohormones (all legal)... if I skip a day, I feel it at the gym, so the stuff works no doubt.

 

[Rickson]

You're taking andro?

 

[plasma]

rhoids yeah great idea, shorten your life, your pecker, shrink your sack, get permanent bacne, mess with your hormones etc. Last thing anyone needs is more rage.
No op, I was talking about kids who looked strong after HS like mav.
It's a mystery why some kids are boosted by lifting like MAv and some badly stunted by it.
Rickson, the push ups I reccomended are for people like the OP who feel the need to build actual noticeable strength. The routine I reccomended will get him ripped without any risk of stunting. 25-50 push ups a day will change his body, especially if he is making his own dinner and lunch: pasta, chicken sandwiches, ground beef (no salt kid), eggs, eating his vegetables, fruits, nuts, water, sugar free natural juices, natural whole foods, not the pathetic garbage he has been putting in his engine. That stuff is like soft serve food, know what I mean??? ewwwwww.
Idiot trainer$ try to use your fatuos (not getting personal here, just an intellectual attack on your argument, you still haven't told us if they are real, btw...ANSWER THE QUESTION!!!!) argument about body weight as phony evidence that lifting wieghts doesn't stunt growth.
they say running causes 6 times more stress and weight on the body than weights. Yes but these running elongates the bones, wheras lifting compresses the heads of the bones and shrinks them.
When did I say weights were bad? The op would clearly be using his body weight to get ripped by doing push ups, thank you captain fhukin obvious. To say body weight exercises are the same as lifting wieghts is crepe, they are different schools.
some olympic and pro athletes are allowed to do body weight exercises but not allowed to touch weights, some are strong enough and don't even need body weight exercises.

who is stronger, the guy who does 1,000 push ups or the guy who benches 225? who is stronger the guy who does 50 handstand push ups or the guy who deadlifts the same weight?

neither, the guy who worked growing up is the strongest. People foolishly equate size with strength. Those guys are big but they didn't throw 3 60 pound bags on their back as a teenager all day every day and walk a quarte mile with it. The kid who did would tear them both to shreds.

 

[Rickson]

Push ups rock when you do them with push up bars. I still prefer dips.

 

[plasma]

that's why I reccomended them for op soft serve here, he's gonna look like a friggin jacked male model by the end of the summer.

Hey op, pls take before and after pics and do the 50 push ups a day. you'll thank me,

 

[Rickson]

Invest in a pair of push up bars. I have the ones that look like triangles.

 

[plasma]

what about a pull up bar?

 

[ollinger]

"playing tennis will stretch out your bones as you grow"....could people please stop writing any idiotic drivel that happens to enter their minds?

 

[Kobble]

Dudes, I hate to break it to you, but roid's is like 1/4 of the answer to getting ripped like that. Roid's don't do **** unless you eat like a freaking horse, eat well, and lift like a freaking monster 2x a day 5 days a weeks. You could run 1000 mg's of test and 400 mg's of tren a week or any "advanced" stack you find on the internet sites... if you don't eat 5000 "clean" cals and 2x per lb body weight of protein and lift like crazy, you'll get no result or even worse, you'll just get fat.

I don't know where you got that information from but, it is not only wrong, but opposite of the truth. Steroids don't make you fat. High calories, without a heavy workload and steroids, does. In reality steroids do something for everybody. If you eat an average diet, you will benefit from steroids. It is scientifically proven.

 

[AlphaCDjkr]

that's why I reccomended them for op soft serve here, he's gonna look like a friggin jacked male model by the end of the summer.

Hey op, pls take before and after pics and do the 50 push ups a day. you'll thank me,

what about a pull up bar?

Invest in a pair of push up bars. I have the ones that look like triangles.

Hehe, if only.. But hey, I'll go for it. My friend has one of those Iron gym thingies (Adequate enough for pushups/pullups?) Unfortunately I doubt he'll let me borrow it since he uses it himself.. leaving me with regular pushups and/or the gym, where its perpetually crowded...:evil:

**Should I do the 50 pushups all at once? Honestly at this time, I can't do more than 20 without needing stopping for a few seconds..

 

[Rickson]

50 push ups? Do 2 sets of 15 and you'll be fine. When that gets too easy for you, do 2 sets of 20.

 

[plasma]

or 5 sets of ten, or ten sets if you want the fast train to the Beach at USCB.


hey ollinger, it's common knowledge that exercises like tennis promote growth. Many studies on the prolonged and specific physical effects of motions like running or jumping on the trampoline have been done.
I stand behind my statement as scientific fact as well as common knowledge. Only a global friggin idiot would deny that different exercises build different body types...
that's why "the stereotypical athlete" is visually different in every sport.
I am a certified tennis coach, this is not idiotic drivel, it's why the kids on the tennis team and those on the wrestling squad look a bit different

 

[Slicendicer]

I don't know where you got that information from but, it is not only wrong, but opposite of the truth. Steroids don't make you fat. High calories, without a heavy workload and steroids, does. In reality steroids do something for everybody. If you eat an average diet, you will benefit from steroids. It is scientifically proven.

You are incorrect... I am speaking from 1st hand experience long ago (100 hours of scholarly research) and had many friends doing A LOT of roids. I know what I am talking about. Even the non-aromatizing compounds will flip to estrogen and stack you with fat and water, regardless of affinity. if you don't basically kill yourself in the gym everyday, you won't get any effect, or you might gain strength and lose it as soon as you PCT.

And about shrinking your pecker... couldn't be further from the truth, in fact it is the opposite effect. Permanent back-acne... nope. If a person has a predisposition to hairloss or acne, the side effects can occur.

 

[Slicendicer]

You're taking andro?

A similar compound, it's actually an estrogen blocker and an androgen receptor activator. Also some herbal test boosters. I'm not going to recommend any supplements (although legal) to anybody.

Whether or not its psychological, I couldn't tell you. What I can tell you is I have gained a lot of muscle, strength, and fat loss based on diet, intense workouts, and supplements.

 

[Kobble]

You are incorrect... I am speaking from 1st hand experience long ago (100 hours of scholarly research) and had many friends doing A LOT of roids. I know what I am talking about. Even the non-aromatizing compounds will flip to estrogen and stack you with fat and water, regardless of affinity. if you don't basically kill yourself in the gym everyday, you won't get any effect, or you might gain strength and lose it as soon as you PCT.

And about shrinking your pecker... couldn't be further from the truth, in fact it is the opposite effect. Permanent back-acne... nope. If a person has a predisposition to hairloss or acne, the side effects can occur.

This is the study I read back in 1996. http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/abstract/335/1/1

Full text- http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/full/335/1/1

1) You don't have to go psycho in the gym. Three times a week works.

2) You can take the testosterone alone and gain strength and muscle.

3) The bad news: The testosterone only group gained almost as much strength in the bench and squat than the exercise only group.

 

[Slicendicer]

This is the study I read back in 1996. http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/abstract/335/1/1

Full text- http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/full/335/1/1

1) You don't have to go psycho in the gym. Three times a week works.

2) You can take the testosterone alone and gain strength and muscle.

3) The bad news: The testosterone only group gained almost as much strength in the bench and squat than the exercise only group.

So you're saying I was right... I know that. If you don't eat a strict high protein, low fat-low carb diet and workout "all psycho"... you will not gain anything. Like I said you may gain a little strength for the cycle duration, you will lose on the PCT. I seen it happen a lot.

If you just take test, any ester, and eat like "normal' and workout a few times a week at a normal pace, you will gain nothing... you will probably get fat and retain a lot of water (which may appear to be gains in mass). After you cycle the water goes away, the fat does not and you are no more strong than you were before you cycled.

 

[Sleepstream]

So you're saying I was right... I know that. If you don't eat a strict high protein, low fat-low carb diet and workout "all psycho"... you will not gain anything. Like I said you may gain a little strength for the cycle duration, you will lose on the PCT. I seen it happen a lot.

If you just take test, any ester, and eat like "normal' and workout a few times a week at a normal pace, you will gain nothing... you will probably get fat and retain a lot of water (which may appear to be gains in mass). After you cycle the water goes away, the fat does not and you are no more strong than you were before you cycled.

Slice, I don't think you read correctly.

This is directly from the text:

The men treated with testosterone but no exercise had an increase of 3.2 kg in fat-free mass, and those in the placebo-plus-exercise group had an increase of 1.9 kg. The increase in the testosterone-plus-exercise group was substantially greater (averaging 6.1 kg). The percentage of body fat did not change significantly in any group (data not shown).

 

[Slicendicer]

Slice, I don't think you read correctly.

This is directly from the text:

Yeah, I know that... what I am quoting is:

"The testosterone only group gained almost as much strength in the bench and squat than the exercise only group."

Case closed... doesn't go on to tell you after the cycle they lost 90% of gains and put on 3-4 lb's of fat. I know this for fact, I've been there and done that.

A person MUST diet, exercise, and cycle 100% intensely and correctly or you will gain nothing but fat and water after the PCT is said and done. This is the absolute truth.

You'd be better off just eating well, working out intensely, and taking a few supplements. You will keep the results and and make real, natural gains.

 

[FastFreddy]

Lazy

it's all about the diet and weight lifting routine. research dieting ideas for gaining mass, but do not implement until 6 weeks into a 4x a week workout routine. depending on your age, supplements will help... i take 2 natural "testosterone" boosters and 2 precursor test prohormones (all legal)... if I skip a day, I feel it at the gym, so the stuff works no doubt.

Stop taking all that crap just lift, run count your kcals and you will be in shape. If something works it's cheating and is a drug. Ps: precursor's don't work since they can never make the jump.

 

[Kobble]

Yeah, I know that... what I am quoting is:

"The testosterone only group gained almost as much strength in the bench and squat than the exercise only group."

Case closed... doesn't go on to tell you after the cycle they lost 90% of gains and put on 3-4 lb's of fat. I know this for fact, I've been there and done that.

A person MUST diet, exercise, and cycle 100% intensely and correctly or you will gain nothing but fat and water after the PCT is said and done. This is the absolute truth.

You'd be better off just eating well, working out intensely, and taking a few supplements. You will keep the results and and make real, natural gains.

Quit doing any exercise (or anything that increases or maintains lean body mass) and it will result in increased body fat and loss of muscle, assuming the same diet is consumed. That fact is not isolated to steroid use.

 

[Slicendicer]

Quit doing any exercise (or anything that increases or maintains lean body mass) and it will result in increased body fat and loss of muscle, assuming the same diet is consumed. That fact is not isolated to steroid use.

Brah... I'm going to tell you one more time and I won't repeat myself. You think what you want, but I KNOW... and I am telling you so you don't walk around with a head full of misinformation about something you apparently know nothing about. Most people assume to know anything about steroids, hormones, or the endocrinology itself because of Jose Canseco, or an article in Muscle magazine, or whereever you acquire preconcieved notions.

Test and similar compounds will convert to estrogen which will promote fatty deposits and water retention (and many other sides).

A person cannot take steriods do little or nothing and expect any results, they won't get them. The compounds are only effective under strict routine and proper nutrition, meaning minimum 2 G's protein per LB of body weight-lo carb-lo fat- a lot of calories.

If a person takes test enan and does not workout intensely, eats strict calories with high protein, and cycle properly... he/she will gain nothing but fat and water. End of story.

 

[Kobble]

If a person takes test enan and does not workout intensely, eats strict calories with high protein, and cycle properly... he/she will gain nothing but fat and water. End of story.

New England Journal of Medicine proves otherwise. Where is your scientifc data, since, you claim to have been a part of some?

 

[Slicendicer]

New England Journal of Medicine proves otherwise. Where is your scientifc data, since, you claim to have been a part of some?

Alright, tell me where in the "research" it says what gains were kept after PCT and what the PCT cycle was... oh and BTW, that requires more hormones, not just Test E. And a 10-30% strength gain in 12 weeks is a joke... try 100-175% if you're not you. Also tell me how much strength gain the 'subjects' retained after the study... I assure it is zero. You can't just put hormones in your body and expect "science" to do the work, it will not... unless you want to get fat and bloated. I've seen it many times.

It's been years, I ran test E at 1000mg's a week for 12 weeks along with several other compounds... I been through PCT crash and gains and losses, I know what I am talking about. I am done talking to you, because you are too foolish to listen to someone with firsthand knowledge and experience.

Don't take steroids, especially a dumbass like yourself, you will hurt yourself.