Nadal 2009 Aus Open vs Nadal 2012 Aus Open ..... Who wins?

[Sunny014]

?

 

[martinezownsclay]

Nadal 2009 easily. He didn't even play that well in the 2012 final honestly, and it was pretty amazing he nearly won against the Australian Open GOAT. Nadal 2012 would have never beaten the playing out of his skin/by far best tennis of his life Verdasco or a pretty good (apart from his serving) Federer in the final.

 

[Sunny014]

Nadal 2009 easily. He didn't even play that well in the 2012 final honestly, and it was pretty amazing he nearly won against the Australian Open GOAT. Nadal 2012 would have never beaten the playing out of his skin/by far best tennis of his life Verdasco or a pretty good (apart from his serving) Federer in the final.

True..... Nadal's back to back performances vs Verdasco and Federer was superhuman performance.

Verdasco himself was playing at slam wining level.

 

[martinezownsclay]

True..... Nadal's back to back performances vs Verdasco and Federer was superhuman performance.

Verdasco himself was playing at slam wining level.

He was. Too bad he didn't build on that for his career, which I was really hoping for. Such a talented and fun player to watch when playing well, but such an erratic career.

 

[The Blond Blur]

AO 09dal was moar epic in every way

 

[Sunny014]

AO 09dal was moar epic in every way

True....

2008FO till 2009AO ... That Nadal was a ruthless force of nature.... 3 slams out of 4 slams won .... absolute peak.

 

[Kralingen]

AO 09.

Better question is: would you take AO12 Djokovic over AO09 Rafa? he would cause a significantly different set of issues to Federer. It’d definitely go 5.

But I wouldn’t have any issue with someone arguing AO09 Nadal could beat just about any other AO performance historically. It probably wouldn’t, but it could.

 

[Deleted member 779124]

Similar level of play imo.

 

[ForehandCross]

I will leave people to bicker among themselves .

But all I know Fernando- Nadal 2009 , Berdych -Nadal 2012 are two of the most epic matches that I have watched.

Definition of Epic.

 

[InsideOut900]

Nadal 2012 would have never beaten the playing out of his skin/by far best tennis of his life Verdasco or a pretty good (apart from his serving) Federer in the final.

Not necessarily.
Nadal played about as well as he could vs. Federer and Berdych in 2012. Djokovic was in a different tier as an opponent, especially after the brutal beatdowns from 2011, easy to understand why Nadal couldn't play as well.

I would still take 2009, he was slightly faster, more consistent depth on the FH and clearly better BH.
His baseline game was more potent in 2009, but I still see 2012 Nadal beating Verdasco over 5 sets. Federer would be interesting, I think Roger gets in done in 4 sets the way he couldn't in 2009.

 

[Third Serve]

I think Nadal was greatly aided by the super slow 2012 courts — and Djokovic hampered a little. Nadal’s level that tournament gets a bit overstated for that reason. Still a fantastic player, but the scoreline is a little flattering to him imo.

2009 Nadal was just really good in general.

 

[Deleted member 779124]

I think Nadal was greatly aided by the super slow 2012 courts — and Djokovic hampered a little. Nadal’s level that tournament gets a bit overstated for that reason. Still a fantastic player, but the scoreline is a little flattering to him imo.

2009 Nadal was just really good in general.

I find it gets downplayed compared to AO 2009.

 

[Sunny014]

Federer is unlucky that he had this freakish version of nadal when Fed was in his late 20s, on the other hand when djokovic was in his late 20s he faced a geriatic kneeless nadal .... what a shame

 

[Poisoned Slice]

2012 because he is lucky Sampras isn't in his era. Or something.

 

[The Blond Blur]

I think Nadal was greatly aided by the super slow 2012 courts — and Djokovic hampered a little. Nadal’s level that tournament gets a bit overstated for that reason. Still a fantastic player, but the scoreline is a little flattering to him imo.

2009 Nadal was just really good in general.

Disagree on that front, 2011-2016 Joker was better on and preferred slower surfaces. He moved better, had more endurance, and more firepower to hit through the court. There’s a reason he won multiple sunshine doubles and YECs during this timeframe. Now mid-2018-to present Joker definitely prefers lower bouncing faster courts which helps with his more precise counterpunching. Faster courts also amplify his improved serve.

 

[InsideOut900]

Disagree on that front, 2011-2016 Joker was better on and preferred slower surfaces. He moved better, had more endurance, and more firepower to hit through the court. There’s a reason he won multiple sunshine doubles and YECs during this timeframe. Now mid-2018-to present Joker definitely prefers lower bouncing faster courts which helps with his more precise counterpunching. Faster courts also amplify his improved serve.

Djokovic needs a bit of court pace to impose his ballstriking game and returning. He isn't a natural big hitter, nor a grinder, both who would benefit from superslow courts.

His ideal conditions reside between slow-medium and medium paced HC, like AO 08, AO 13, AO 16 and AO 19. Not AO 11 or 12.

 

[NoleIsBoat]

2012 version. Still had that same speed and defence, but also a stronger baseline game. More deeper FHs and BHs

 

[nolefam_2024]

Federer is unlucky that he had this freakish version of nadal when Fed was in his late 20s, on the other hand when djokovic was in his late 20s he faced a geriatic kneeless nadal .... what a shame

Federer is unluckiest choker of goat players.. agree with you

 

[The Blond Blur]

Djokovic needs a bit of court pace to impose his ballstriking game and returning. He isn't a natural big hitter, nor a grinder, both who would benefit from superslow courts.

His ideal conditions reside between slow-medium and medium paced HC, like AO 08, AO 13, AO 16 and AO 19. Not AO 11 or 12.

We’re gonna have to agree to disagree. 2011 was his best AO form and statistically 2012 was his 3rd best. In 2008-2016 he had the strength to consistently hit through the court the court, while slower courts helped make hit harder to hit through him. That’s why Miami is his best MS1000.

 

[Third Serve]

Djokovic needs a bit of court pace to impose his ballstriking game and returning. He isn't a natural big hitter, nor a grinder, both who would benefit from superslow courts.

His ideal conditions reside between slow-medium and medium paced HC, like AO 08, AO 13, AO 16 and AO 19. Not AO 11 or 12.

Yeah Novak has never really been that comfortable on outright slow courts like the 2012 AO. Medium-slow to medium is where he generally thrives.

 

[InsideOut900]

We’re gonna have to agree to disagree. 2011 was his best AO form and statistically 2012 was his 3rd best. In 2008-2016 he had the strength to consistently hit through the court the court, while slower courts helped make hit harder to hit through him. That’s why Miami is his best MS1000.

2011 was his best physical form.

Now imagine you combine that with his best playing conditions. It would look even scarier.
That's what happened in 2008, he was weaker physically compared to 2011, but the court played in his hands.

We can disagree on 2012 too. Statistically he stomped weaker players, inflating his numbers and struggled against both Murray and Nadal. It was his 5th AO at best behind 2008, 2011, 2013 and one of 2016/2019.

Miami is his best M1000 because of the bounce and because no one else is as good as Djokovic there. Relatively speaking his top level in Miami is nowhere near AO 13 and AO 16 semis.

 

[The Blond Blur]

2011 was his best physical form.

Now imagine you combine that with his best playing conditions. It would look even scarier.
That's what happened in 2008, he was weaker physically compared to 2011, but the court played in his hands.

We can disagree on 2012 too. Statistically he stomped weaker players, inflating his numbers and struggled against both Murray and Nadal. It was his 5th AO at best behind 2008, 2011, 2013 and one of 2016/2019.

Miami is his best M1000 because of the bounce and because no one else is as good as Djokovic there. Relatively speaking his top level in Miami is nowhere near AO 13 and AO 16 semis.

He actually hit the ball even bigger in 2008. Now he definitely moved better and had a bigger gas tank in 2011.

Weaker players in 2012? He went through Ferrer, peak Murray, and prime Nadal all in a row. It doesn't get much more difficult than that. Whereas in 2016 he struggled with Simon and beat worse versions of Federer and Murray. He had a very kind draw in 2019 too.

The bounce is low in Miami, but it's also the slowest HC MS1000. If peak/prime Joker was better on medium-fast to fast courts, then he'd have been way more successful at Cincy.

 

[InsideOut900]

He actually hit the ball even bigger in 2008. Now he definitely moved better and had a bigger gas tank in 2011.

If you watch 2011 semi, Djokovic was hitting the ball really hard, outright ballbashing at times. 2008 maybe had better explosive winners, but 2011 was hitting consistently heavier.

His BH, shot tolerance and compactness of his
shots all better in 2011, yet his game didn't look as impressive as it should have because he couldn't hit through the court the way he wanted.

The bounce is low in Miami, but it's also the slowest HC MS1000. If peak/prime Joker was better on medium-fast to fast courts, then he'd have been way more successful at Cincy.

I said his peak is better on slow-medium to medium courts. Where did you get the medium-fast and fast from?

Aggressive returning and consistent ballhitting are naturally less rewarded the slower the court is.

Weaker players in 2012? He went through Ferrer, peak Murray, and prime Nadal all in a row. It doesn't get much more difficult than that. Whereas in 2016 he struggled with Simon and beat worse versions of Federer and Murray. He had a very kind draw in 2019 too.

And here I said he inflated his numbers by being dominant in the first 5 matches, but wasn't at the same level against Nadal and Murray.

No way does Murray nearly beat the 3rd best Djokovic if not for 1-2 clutch points from Djokovic.
And Nadal didn't play peak tennis either, but Djokovic choked the 4th set and was subparish in the 1st set, with a lot of UE and poor returning in particular.
Again, not the 3rd best Djokovic since I can point out much better performances from him.

 

[Deleted member 762343]

It would be way closer than people think, it could go either way. 2009 Nadal was a tad faster but 2012 Nadal is tactically better.

 

[The Blond Blur]

If you watch 2011 semi, Djokovic was hitting the ball really hard, outright ballbashing at times. 2008 maybe had better explosive winners, but 2011 was hitting consistently heavier.

His BH, shot tolerance and compactness of his
shots all better in 2011, yet his game didn't look as impressive as it should have because he couldn't hit through the court the way he wanted.


I said his peak is better on slow-medium to medium courts. Where did you get the medium-fast and fast from?

Aggressive returning and consistent ballhitting are naturally less rewarded the slower the court is.


And here I said he inflated his numbers by being dominant in the first 5 matches, but wasn't at the same level against Nadal and Murray.

No way does Murray nearly beat the 3rd best Djokovic if not for 1-2 clutch points from Djokovic.
And Nadal didn't play peak tennis either, but Djokovic choked the 4th set and was subparish in the 1st set, with a lot of UE and poor returning in particular. Again, not the 3rd best Djokovic.

He had better shot tolerance in 2011 because of his improved movement and stamina, but he never hit the ball bigger than he did in 2008.

Slow, medium-slow, medium, we’re splitting hairs here. The point being that if Joker was better on slightly faster conditions than slower ones in his prime/peak years then he would have performed better in the medium paced courts which didn’t happen. He performed the best in Miami, then Indian Wells, then Canada, and then Cincy. The faster the conditions got, the worse he performed. The slower conditions actually helps returners as it gives them more time to react to the ball.

He didn’t inflate his numbers in 2012. He just took care of the early round opponents like he should have. If anything, his numbers were boosted in 2016 and 2019 since he faced weaker versions of Federer and Murray in 2016. While in 2019 he beat Glasshikori who retired midway through the 2nd set. Poullie who faced a joke draw to make his lone GS SF and a terrible RAFA.

 

[RS]

2012 version. Still had that same speed and defence, but also a stronger baseline game. More deeper FHs and BHs

Out of 10 in both finals?

 

[NoleIsBoat]

Out of 10 in both finals?

Slitting hairs. 9.25/10 for 2009 and 9.5 for 2012.

 

[RS]

Slitting hairs. 9.25/10 for 2009 and 9.5 for 2012.

What about the QF/SF in 2012 and the SF in 2009?

 

[ChrisRF]

Federer is unlucky that he had this freakish version of nadal when Fed was in his late 20s, on the other hand when djokovic was in his late 20s he faced a geriatic kneeless nadal .... what a shame

That's right to some degree. Interestingly though, this "geriatric" Nadal came back to dominate RG from 2017-2020 like nobody ever dominated a Slam over a 4-year-period. As if being geriatric is reversible.

 

[Sunny014]

Federer is unluckiest choker of goat players.. agree with you

Better than being Stanimal's pigeon and gifting free slams to murray

 

[Gazelle]

AO 2012 Nadal is so underrated, one of his best ever forms.

2009 was great but still hitting short regularly. 2012 had more depth and power.

 

[InsideOut900]

Slow, medium-slow, medium, we’re splitting hairs here. The point being that if Joker was better on slightly faster conditions than slower ones in his prime/peak years then he would have performed better in the medium paced courts which didn’t happen. He performed the best in Miami, then Indian Wells, then Canada, and then Cincy. The faster the conditions got, the worse he performed. The slower conditions actually helps returners as it gives them more time to react to the ball.

His best 2 performances at AO came in 2013 and 2016. It enough to see how Djokovic's shots react to the court being just slightly faster to see my point. I overexplained it, so I won't do it again.

I will just say this, give 2011 Djokovic the AO 16 or AO 19 speeds and he reaches even greater heights, especially on the 2016 speed.

If you can't differentiate category 1 slow from category 2 leaning toward category 3, that's not on me. It's where I rest my case really.

 

[Deleted member 762343]

Better than being Stanimal's pigeon and gifting free slams to murray

I'd like to be a great player's pigeon if it meant a 19-6 h2h lead for me and tied at 4-4 in slams.

 

[RS]

His best 2 performances at AO came in 2013 and 2016. It enough to see how Djokovic's shots react to the court being just slightly faster to see my point. I overexplained it, so I won't do it again.

I will just say this, give 2011 Djokovic the AO 16 or AO 19 speeds and he reaches even greater heights, especially on the 2016 speed.

If you can't differentiate category 1 slow from category 2 leaning toward category 3, that's not on me. It's where I rest my case really.

Don't you think Federer would have given Djokovic more trouble if AO was 16/19 speeds?

 

[InsideOut900]

Don't you think Federer would have given Djokovic more trouble on AO 16/19 speeds?

There is a cut-off point for Djokovic when it comes to speed.

Nadal prefers slow to medium-slow, Djokovic medium-slow to medium and Federer medium to medium-fast. This all depending on how aggressive their games are by nature and how early they take the ball.

Now to answer the question, Federer would trouble 2011 Djokovic more on 2019 speeds, but even less on 2016 speeds. That's how I see it.

 

[tudwell]

2012 version. Still had that same speed and defence, but also a stronger baseline game. More deeper FHs and BHs

It's like you don't even have eyes to watch these matches with.

In half the rallies in 2012, Nadal was playing 15 feet behind the baseline and barely clearing the service line with his shots. He let Novak step in and bully him in rallies, and had to make up for it with immense shotmaking in the big moments to keep the match as tight as it was.

 

[RS]

It's like you don't even have eyes to watch these matches with.

Many of his takes are trolling to annoy Federer fans but choosing AO 2012 Nadal over AO 2009 Nadal by a small margin is not that outlandish.

 

[MichaelNadal]

2009 crispy backhand dal

 

[tudwell]

Many of his takes are trolling to annoy Federer fans but choosing AO 2012 Nadal over AO 2009 Nadal by a small margin is not that outlandish.

It's not picking 2012 – that's fine if someone thinks he's better. But saying 2012 Nadal had better depth just strikes me as absurd. 2012 Nadal was dropping the ball short a lot. It was a slow as hell court, so he could largely get away with it, but it seems like a strange thing to call out as an improvement when if anything it was one thing he did clearly worse in 2012. And it's not even entirely a positive for 2009 – he was clearly feeling the effects of his epic semifinal even from the start of the match, so he stood in closer to the baseline and traded harder, deeper shots with Federer probably at the expense of some consistency. He played a lot more conservatively in 2012 – and he did plenty of things better in 2012 than in 2009, but I don't see how depth is one of those.

 

[RS]

There is a cut-off point for Djokovic when it comes to speed.

Nadal prefers slow to medium-slow, Djokovic medium-slow to medium and Federer medium to medium-fast. This all depending on how aggressive their games are by nature and how early they take the ball.

Now to answer the question, Federer would trouble 2011 Djokovic more on 2019 speeds, but even less on 2016 speeds. That's how I see it.

I never thought of it as Djokovic would have played at a even higher on some faster AO speeds interesting take.

 

[Third Serve]

I never thought of it as Djokovic would have played at a even higher on some faster AO speeds interesting take.

Got a thread idea stirring around in your head?

 

[Sunny014]

I'd like to be a great player's pigeon if it meant a 19-6 h2h lead for me and tied at 4-4 in slams.

Federer did as well as he could vs Nadal in his career taking into consideration a +5 age deficit and a single handed backhand.

Had the age gap not existed we would have seen

Federer 03's footspeed vs Nadal 08's footspeed
Federer 04-06's footspeed vs Nadal 09-11's footspeed
Federer 07-09's footspeed vs Nadal 12-14's footspeed
Federer's 10-12's footspeed vs Nadal 15-17's footspeed
Federer 13-17's footspeed vs Nadal 18-22's footspeed

So do you see the pattern ? Nadal would start losing to Federer as Federer started to enter his mid 20s and Nadal would start going down and if they both played till 35 then Nadal would have been clueless vs Federer for a better part of the decade....

Thats what age gaps can do in Tennis, the fortunes would be reversed. Nadal's whole legacy is built on he being faster than Federer for most of his career, once he lost that in old age he became impotent. In a same aged scenario he starts losing quite early in his career to Federer.

 

[RS]

Federer did as well as he could vs Nadal in his career taking into consideration a +5 age deficit and a single handed backhand.

Had the age gap not existed we would have seen

Federer 03's footspeed vs Nadal 08's footspeed
Federer 04-06's footspeed vs Nadal 09-10's footspeed
Federer 07-09's footspeed vs Nadal 11-14's footspeed
Federer's 10-12's footspeed vs Nadal 15-17's footspeed

So do you see the pattern ? Nadal would start losing to Federer as Federer started to enter his mid 20s and Nadal would start going down and if they both played till 35 then Nadal would have been clueless vs Federer for a better part of the next decade....

Thats what age gaps can do in Tennis, the fortunes would be reversed. Nadal's whole legacy is built on he being faster than Federer for most of his career, once he lost that in old age he became impotent. In a same aged scenario he starts losing quite early in his career to Federer.

Give Federer a 2 hander and make him change to a bigger frame in 2008/2009 and make the courts faster and add 2 grass M1000s. How many slams and M1000s does Federer win in this senario?

 

[Sunny014]

Give Federer a 2 hander and make him change to a bigger frame in 2008/2009 and make the courts faster and add 2 grass M1000s. How many slams and M1000s does Federer win in this senario?

No need for double hander.
Just bigger racquet and same age is sufficient.

On any surface that is not slow Nadal would look as helpless as he did in this match, throughout their career this would have been the case in every match, no chance of beating peak Federer. It is their age difference and footspeed what made Nadal make those matches so competitive.

 

[The Blond Blur]

His best 2 performances at AO came in 2013 and 2016. It enough to see how Djokovic's shots react to the court being just slightly faster to see my point. I overexplained it, so I won't do it again.

I will just say this, give 2011 Djokovic the AO 16 or AO 19 speeds and he reaches even greater heights, especially on the 2016 speed.

If you can't differentiate category 1 slow from category 2 leaning toward category 3, that's not on me. It's where I rest my case really.

We're just going in circles at this point. I'm not convinced that peak/prime Joker was better in slightly faster conditions just because he gave Ferrer a beatdown in 2013 (like he did everytime they played at the AO) and beat a severly past his prime Ol' Rog and a much worse Murray in 2016. The fact of the matter is he went through much tougher competition in 2012 than he did in just about any other run he had at the AO. The AO was also slower than the USO until 2017, and I wouldn't call the 2010 USO's medium fast by any stretch of the imagination. If you can't see how Joker performed better at the AO (and tournaments like Miami) when it was slower then I can't help you.

 

[RS]

Got a thread idea stirring around in your head?

No.

 

[NoleIsBoat]

It's not picking 2012 – that's fine if someone thinks he's better. But saying 2012 Nadal had better depth just strikes me as absurd. 2012 Nadal was dropping the ball short a lot. It was a slow as hell court, so he could largely get away with it, but it seems like a strange thing to call out as an improvement when if anything it was one thing he did clearly worse in 2012. And it's not even entirely a positive for 2009 – he was clearly feeling the effects of his epic semifinal even from the start of the match, so he stood in closer to the baseline and traded harder, deeper shots with Federer probably at the expense of some consistency. He played a lot more conservatively in 2012 – and he did plenty of things better in 2012 than in 2009, but I don't see how depth is one of those.

You must be joking… 2009 Federer was bossing him around the court and he frustrated him with his defence and passing shots.

 

[RS]

No need for double hander.
Just bigger racquet and same age is sufficient.

On any surface that is not slow Nadal would look as helpless as he did in this match, throughout their career this would have been the case in every match, no chance of beating peak Federer. It is their age difference and footspeed what made Nadal make those matches so competitive.

How many slams and M1000s in my senario then?

 

[InsideOut900]

We're just going in circles at this point. I'm not convinced that peak/prime Joker was better in slightly faster conditions just because he gave Ferrer a beatdown in 2013 (like he did everytime they played at the AO) and beat a severly past his prime Ol' Rog and a much worse Murray in 2016. The fact of the matter is he went through much tougher competition in 2012 than he did in just about any other run he had at the AO. The AO was also slower than the USO until 2017, and I wouldn't call the 2010 USO's medium fast by any stretch of the imagination. If you can't see how Joker performed better at the AO (and tournaments like Miami) when it was slower then I can't help you.

I can also point out his results in slow-medium conditions (Paris Masters and YEC), which are similar to IW and Miami.

I am gonna meet you halfway there and say peak Djokovic from 2011-2013 could afford to play on the super slow variants, while the post 2013 Djokovic needed slightly more reactive courts so he wouldn't have to generate his own pace and use his serve more.

Slightly faster courts are especially an advantage against Murray and Nadal, whom he had to face in 2012, though perhaps not against Federer.

Spoiler

 

[Deleted member 762343]

Federer did as well as he could vs Nadal in his career taking into consideration a +5 age deficit and a single handed backhand.

Had the age gap not existed we would have seen

Federer 03's footspeed vs Nadal 08's footspeed
Federer 04-06's footspeed vs Nadal 09-11's footspeed
Federer 07-09's footspeed vs Nadal 12-14's footspeed
Federer's 10-12's footspeed vs Nadal 15-17's footspeed
Federer 13-17's footspeed vs Nadal 18-22's footspeed

So do you see the pattern ? Nadal would start losing to Federer as Federer started to enter his mid 20s and Nadal would start going down and if they both played till 35 then Nadal would have been clueless vs Federer for a better part of the decade....

Thats what age gaps can do in Tennis, the fortunes would be reversed. Nadal's whole legacy is built on he being faster than Federer for most of his career, once he lost that in old age he became impotent. In a same aged scenario he starts losing quite early in his career to Federer.

Where did I mention Federer in my post ?