Nadal vs. Himself from 2008/2010/2013/2017

[Devin]

Here's the sequel to my Federer vs. Himself from 2004-2007 thread. What would happen if Nadal played himself from 2008, 2010, 2013, and 2017?

For starters, I think 2008 Nadal would win a majority on clay because his speed was absolutely astonishing at the time. However, I'm struggling to figure out what version of Nadal would win a majority on hard courts. To make it fair, I'll let 2010 Nadal have the big USO serve because otherwise, I don't think it would be as competitive.

Perhaps I would give 2008 Nadal the edge on grass (2010 Nadal's performance at Wimbledon wasn't outstanding by any means, but he didn't have the big serve yet so I'm not sure). However, I'm having more trouble making a decision for hard courts. I was thinking 2013 Nadal would win the most on fast hard courts, and it would be a toss-up between 2008-2009 and 2013 Nadal on slow hard courts.

I still wonder if 2010 or 2017 Nadal would put up a big fight against the 2008/2013 versions though. I think it really depends on how much of an effect a bigger serve (2010) and flatter hitting/more aggressive play (2017) have.

I suppose each version of Nadal had a key weapon, which could be a factor in this hypothetical matchup.

2008 - Speed (but his backhand was good in early 2009)
2010 - Serve
2013 - Forehand
2017 - Backhand

What do you think? Discuss.

 

[NoleFam]

2008 - grass
2008/2013 - clay (hard to decide)
2013 - hard courts

 

[Devin]

2008 - grass
2008/2013 - clay (hard to decide)
2013 - hard courts

2013 Nadal struggled against Djokovic on clay though. He had the loss in Monte Carlo (his pet Masters 1000 event), and he barely won the French Open semifinal that year. Djokovic probably would've won that match if he hadn't stumbled upon the net and squandered his break lead in the fifth.

I just don't see 2008 Nadal struggling against Djokovic on clay because his speed was unparalleled back then, and he had more of a clay-specialized game instead of an all-around game.

 

[abmk]

2013 nadal on clay wasn't even top4 : 07,08,10,12 were better.
even 2006 was probably a tad better.

 

[abmk]

clay : 2008
grass : 2008

fast HC : 2013 ( one tournament : USO 10)
slow HC : 2009

 

[Deleted member 716271]

clay : 2008
grass : 2008

fast HC : 2013 ( one tournament : USO 10)
slow HC : 2009

Yeah this. I think USO 13 could be argued as good as 10 though.

 

[NoleFam]

2013 Nadal struggled against Djokovic on clay though. He had the loss in Monte Carlo (his pet Masters 1000 event), and he barely won the French Open semifinal that year. Djokovic probably would've won that match if he hadn't stumbled upon the net and squandered his break lead in the fifth.

I just don't see 2008 Nadal struggling against Djokovic on clay because his speed was unparalleled back then, and he had more of a clay-specialized game instead of an all-around game.

He was a speed demon in 2013 as well so I don't think there is much difference there. I put them on par with each other because of that 5th set in that RG semifinal. That was a level I had never seen on clay court and still don't think I've seen it again. Even in 2008, I don't think he was capable of that level. In 2008, Djokovic was his closest match of the tournament when he basically destroyed everybody else. I could see peak Djokovic giving him a match in 2008.

 

[abmk]

Yeah this. I think USO 13 could be argued as good as 10 though.

I've seen those arguments, but I really don't think so.
nadal just did enough to win vs a tired gasquet in USO 13 SF - his performance wasn't impressive
in the 2013 final, he was under the pump and djokovic blew it along with nadal being clutch

in USO 2010, he took out a tired youzhny easily in a convincing performance in the semi and his final performance vs djokovic was impressive, clearly better than 13 final

 

[abmk]

He was a speed demon on 2013 as well so I don't think there is much difference there. I put them on par with each other because of that 5th set in that RG semifinal. That was a level I had never seen on clay court and still don't think I've seen it again. Even in 2008, I don't think he was capable of that level. In 2008, Djokovic was his closest match of the tournament when he basically destroyed everybody else. I could see peak Djokovic giving him a match in 2008.

he played at that level basically for all the last 4 matches at RG 08 ( even if not as aggressive) -- verdasco, almagro, djokovic, federer.

 

[okdude1992]

I've seen those arguments, but I really don't think so.
nadal just did enough to win vs a tired gasquet in USO 13 SF - his performance wasn't impressive
in the 2013 final, he was under the pump and djokovic blew it along with nadal being clutch

in USO 2010, he took out a tired youzhny easily in a convincing performance in the semi and his final performance vs djokovic was impressive, clearly better than 13 final

I think 2013 USO Nadal beats 2010 USO Nadal. But could see that being argued either way

 

[Deleted member 716271]

I've seen those arguments, but I really don't think so.
nadal just did enough to win vs a tired gasquet in USO 13 SF - his performance wasn't impressive
in the 2013 final, he was under the pump and djokovic blew it along with nadal being clutch

in USO 2010, he took out a tired youzhny easily in a convincing performance in the semi and his final performance vs djokovic was impressive, clearly better than 13 final

Djokovic was better in 13 though, it was in the middle of a stretch of him choking big finals, but he was still a better player in 2013 than pre 2011. He would play great for stretches in that run of blown finals, then choke when it mattered. Before '11 though, he just wasn't as good overall. Yet, Nadal won both finals in 4. The only part of his game that was visibly better to me in 10 was the serves. His groundstrokes looked better in 13 to me on HC.

Youzhny is not really a dangerous player and an easy matchup for Nadal.

 

[abmk]

I think 2013 USO Nadal beats 2010 USO Nadal. But could see that being argued either way

these are the stats in the 2 finals :

1) he hit 27 winners to 20 UEs in the USO 13 final

he hit 49 winners to 31 UEs in the USO 10 final.

2) he served at 64% in the USO 13 final, average speed of 176 kph on 1st serve, 136 on 2nd serve, had 1 ace, 1 DF
he served at 67% in the USO 10 final, average speed of 186 kph on 1st serve, 141 on 2nd serve, had 8 aces, 2 DFs

I really don't see it , tbh.

 

[abmk]

Djokovic was better in 13 though, it was in the middle of a stretch of him choking big finals, but he was still a better player in 2013 than pre 2011. He would play great for stretches in that run of blown finals, then choke when it mattered. Before '11 though, he just wasn't as good overall. Yet, Nadal won both finals in 4. The only part of his game that was visibly better to me in 10 was the serves. His groundstrokes looked better in 13 to me on HC.

see post #12 of mine. The winners stat. Nadal's ground game was also better in USO 10 IMO. more confident. (only thing better in nadal's ground game in 13 was his BH slice)
djokovic's highs were higher in the 13 USO final, but his lows were lower than in the 10 final.
Overall, he actually played a tad better in the USO 10 final, if you ask me.

Youzhny is not really a dangerous player and an easy matchup for Nadal.

his h2h vs nadal is 4-13, at one stage it was 3 all (mid -2007). He had beat nadal in USO 06. was up 2-0 in wim 07, then had some injury problem and rafa was able to win it in 5 sets.

gasquet's is much worse at 1-14, with gasquet's one win coming way back in 2003 in a challenger, LOL !

 

[Devin]

He was a speed demon in 2013 as well so I don't think there is much difference there. I put them on par with each other because of that 5th set in that RG semifinal. That was a level I had never seen on clay court and still don't think I've seen it again. Even in 2008, I don't think he was capable of that level. In 2008, Djokovic was his closest match of the tournament when he basically destroyed everybody else. I could see peak Djokovic giving him a match in 2008.

Sure, Nadal was fast in 2013, but some people forget how explosive he was back then. This is from 2005, but it's still a good representation.

Peak Djokovic might be able (AT MOST) to take a set off of 2008 Nadal on clay. I don't see Djokovic being able to hit past Nadal as easily or outperform him in consistency battles (don't forget he could hit insane winners/angles even back then). After all, Nadal's peak on clay is the highest peak that's ever been seen. I still consider Federer a slightly better peak clay courter than Djokovic, but Djokovic will have an inevitably better career because he plays better against Nadal. I would be surprised if peak Federer could win a set against 2008 Nadal, it was that insane.

This is also from 2005, but I think it's still a fair representation.

 

[Deleted member 716271]

see post #12 of mine. The winners stat. Nadal's ground game was also better in USO 10 IMO. more confident.
djokovic's highs were higher in the 13 USO final, but his lows were lower than in the 10 final.
Overall, he actually played a tad better in the USO 10 final, if you ask me.



his h2h vs nadal is 4-13, at one stage it was 3 all (mid -2007)

gasquet's is much worse at 1-14, with gasquet's one win coming way back in 2003 in a challenger, LOL !

Yeah I know Gasquet is worse, but my point is Youzhny is bad too so not much can be gleaned from comparing the 2 matches really, individual form/variation would account for far more to explain any slight difference in results. Both matches were straight sets anyway though. Youzhny does have 4 wins, but as you noted 3 of them were pre 2008. Nadal only became all surface in 08 and a HC threat in 09 really. Gasquet is pathetic yeah for all his hype at the start lol.

Well the 13 final was a very different match, a lot of Nadal's points won were on Djokovic errors due to Nadal's insane defense that didn't figure in the stats. Like that whole turnaround at the end of set 3 (saving 3 BPs and then breaking Novak) was filled with points like that.

 

[NoleFam]

Sure, Nadal was fast in 2013, but some people forget how explosive he was back then. This is from 2005, but it's still a good representation.

Peak Djokovic might be able (AT MOST) to take a set off of 2008 Nadal on clay. I don't see Djokovic being able to hit past Nadal as easily or outperform him in consistency battles (don't forget he could hit insane winners/angles even back then). After all, Nadal's peak on clay is the highest peak that's ever been seen. I still consider Federer a slightly better peak clay courter than Djokovic, but Djokovic will have an inevitably better career because he plays better against Nadal. I would be surprised if peak Federer could win a set against 2008 Nadal, it was that insane.

This is also from 2005, but I think it's still a fair representation.

I remember how fast he was back then. I watched his entire era. Just that if he was able to take Nadal to a tiebreak in 2008 when he was still nowhere near his peak on the surface, I'm pretty sure he could give 2008 Nadal a match. Djokovic is the only player to consistently challenge him on clay in his career. If it weren't for Djokovic, he would have continued to go entire seasons without losing a match on clay.

I'm not getting into peak Djokovic versus peak Federer on clay today because I'm tired of talking about it. The results speak for themselves.

 

[abmk]

Yeah I know Gasquet is worse, but my point is Youzhny is bad too so not much can be gleaned from comparing the 2 matches really, individual form/variation would account for far more to explain any slight difference in results. Both matches were straight sets anyway though. Youzhny does have 4 wins, but as you noted 3 of them were pre 2008. Nadal only became all surface in 08 and a HC threat in 09 really. Gasquet is pathetic yeah for all his hype at the start lol.

I was just stating the difference based on watching those matches.

Well the 13 final was a very different match, a lot of Nadal's points won were on Djokovic errors due to Nadal's insane defense that didn't figure in the stats. Like that whole turnaround at the end of set 3 (saving 3 BPs and then breaking Novak) was filled with points like that.

nope, more of Novak's errors were in 1-4 shot rallies than in the longer ones in that USO 13 final. He was just spraying the ball everywhere in sets 1 and 4.
I think @NatF had this breakdown.

 

[Devin]

I remember how fast he was back then. I watched his entire era. Just that if he was able to take Nadal to a tiebreak in 2008 when he was still nowhere near his peak on the surface, I'm pretty sure he could give 2008 Nadal a match. Djokovic is the only player to consistently challenge him on clay in his career. If it weren't for Djokovic, he would have continued to go entire seasons without losing a match on clay.

I'm not getting into peak Djokovic versus peak Federer on clay today because I'm tired of talking about it. The results speak for themselves.

I was using that as an example to show how insane Nadal was on clay.

Djokovic played well just to push it to a tiebreak. He doesn't have to be in his peak year(s). A player can have an overall outstanding performance early in their career too. I suppose the two examples that come to mind are Federer at Wimbledon 2003 and Djokovic at the 2008 Australian Open.

 

[Deleted member 716271]

I was just stating the difference based on watching those matches.



nope, more of Novak's errors were in 1-4 shot rallies than in the longer ones in that USO 13 final. He was just spraying the ball everywhere in sets 1 and 4.
I think @NatF had this breakdown.

Also dont you think it's odd Nadal was so much better in NA HC 13, than worse in USO 13 vs 10. Of course tournament form varies, but couldn't his form thruout the 13 HC season be a clue.

I'd have to see that stat, I remember a lot of long rallies won by Nadal, often off of a Novak error, or where he got the racquet on ball at least.

 

[NoleFam]

I was using that as an example to show how insane Nadal was on clay.

Djokovic played well just to push it to a tiebreak. He doesn't have to be in his peak year(s). A player can have an overall outstanding performance early in their career too. I suppose the two examples that come to mind are Federer at Wimbledon 2003 and Djokovic at the 2008 Australian Open.

Yea I know and I realize how fast he was. I am one of the people who said Nadal is nowhere near his speed today compared to around that time.

Djokovic played a good match in 2008 RG but he still was nowhere near his peak level. Some people live by a myth or a memory in their mind, and they think their player can't be touched at a certain timeframe and omit certain variables that put their view into question. Peak Djokovic would challenge 2008 Nadal in a match on Chatrier. The evidence is there.

 

[Deleted member 716271]

Yea I know and I realize how fast he was. I am one of the people
who said Nadal is nowhere near his speed today compared to around that time.

Djokovic played a good match in 2008 RG but he still was nowhere near his peak level. Some people live by a myth or a memory in their mind, and they think their player can't be touched at a certain timeframe and omit certain variables that put their view into question. Peak Djokovic would challenge 2008 Nadal in a match on Chatrier. The evidence is there.

I agree Nadal would likely win ofc, but peak Djokovic could make it 4 close sets at least. In 13 we all know how close it was. Okay people say 08 Nadal was way better, but in 12, which may actually have been his best clay season (probably was results wise) or only a bit below 08 (most Nad and Fed fans agree with this) He beat Novak in 4, with ND winning the 8 games in a row. And that wasn't the best Novak by any means, he had almost lost to Tsonga saving 4 MP in the QF LOL.

Peak Novak would lose to peak Nadal on clay but it would likely be 4 sets, and a 5 setter isnt out of the question. It is my belief Novak is a better clay courter than Federer, but what isn't debatable is that he matches up far better against Nadal, especcially on clay.

 

[abmk]

Also dont you think it's odd Nadal was so much better in NA HC 13, than worse in USO 13 vs 10. Of course tournament form varies, but couldn't his form thruout the 13 HC season be a clue.

not really, its called peaking a tad early.

I'd have to see that stat, I remember a lot of long rallies won by Nadal, often off of a Novak error, or where he got the racquet on ball at least.

lets wait for NatF then

 

[Devin]

Yea I know and I realize how fast he was. I am one of the people who said Nadal is nowhere near his speed today compared to around that time.

Djokovic played a good match in 2008 RG but he still was nowhere near his peak level. Some people live by a myth or a memory in their mind, and they think their player can't be touched at a certain timeframe and omit certain variables that put their view into question. Peak Djokovic would challenge 2008 Nadal in a match on Chatrier. The evidence is there.

The sets would be somewhat close, I can agree with that (I don't think it would be anything better than 6-4). Out of 10 BO5 matches, Nadal probably wins a couple in 3, and the rest in 4.

 

[Deleted member 716271]

not really, its called peaking a tad early.



lets wait for NatF then

Yeah, but I would want to see a comparison between the 2 years in terms of errors and rally length, not just for 13.

I remember he wasnt impressed with 13 as a match overall, so probably he agrees with you that Nadal's level was better in 10.

 

[abmk]

I agree Nadal would likely win ofc, but peak Djokovic could make it 4 close sets at least. In 13 we all know how close it was. Okay people say 08 Nadal was way better, but in 12, which may actually have been his best clay season (probably was results wise) or only a bit below 08 (most Nad and Fed fans agree with this) He beat Novak in 4, with ND winning the 8 games in a row. And that wasn't the best Novak by any means, he had almost lost to Tsonga saving 4 MP in the QF LOL.

Peak Novak would lose to peak Nadal on clay but it would likely be 4 sets, and a 5 setter isnt out of the question. It is my belief Novak is a better clay courter than Federer, but what isn't debatable is that he matches up far better against Nadal, especcially on clay.

the 2012 final , nadal absolutely dominated djokovic from the baseline when the conditions weren't wet ( up 2 sets and 2-0 in the 3rd set and then the double break in the 4th set on the 2nd day).

when the conditions became wet, djokovic was able to hit through and ran off with a stretch of 8 games. Not really sure if I would use that as an example.

 

[NoleFam]

I agree Nadal would likely win ofc, but peak Djokovic could make it 4 close sets at least. In 13 we all know how close it was. Okay people say 08 Nadal was way better, but in 12, which may actually have been his best clay season (probably was results wise) or only a bit below 08 (most Nad and Fed fans agree with this) He beat Novak in 4, with ND winning the 8 games in a row. And that wasn't the best Novak by any means, he had almost lost to Tsonga saving 4 MP in the QF LOL.

Peak Novak would lose to peak Nadal on clay but it would likely be 4 sets, and a 5 setter isnt out of the question. It is my belief Novak is a better clay courter than Federer, but what isn't debatable is that he matches up far better against Nadal, especcially on clay.

I pretty much agree with all of this. Djokovic is someone who can challenge him even when he is at the peak of his game. 2012 is a good example of this. The only set he lost in that tournament was to Djokovic. I think if peak Djokovic can get Nadal in damp, muggy conditions he can defiintely take him to 5 sets and possibly beat him. Peak Nadal in sunny conditions will most likely win in 4 close sets.

 

[NoleFam]

The sets would be somewhat close, I can agree with that (I don't think it would be anything better than 6-4). Out of 10 BO5 matches, Nadal probably wins a couple in 3, and the rest in 4.

So he took him to a tiebreak in 2008 but you don't think peak Djokovic couldn't take him further than 6-4? That doesn't make sense.

 

[Devin]

So he took him to a tiebreak in 2008 but you don't think peak Djokovic couldn't take him further than 6-4? That doesn't make sense.

No. I meant that Djokovic or Nadal wouldn't win a set 6-3 or 6-2. It would be much closer as in 6-4, 7-5, and 7-6.

 

[NoleFam]

No. I meant that Djokovic or Nadal wouldn't win a set 6-3 or 6-2. It would be much closer as in 6-4, 7-5, and 7-6.

Oh ok. Yea agreed.

 

[Deleted member 716271]

the 2012 final , nadal absolutely dominated djokovic from the baseline when the conditions weren't wet ( up 2 sets and 2-0 in the 3rd set and then the double break in the 4th set on the 2nd day).

when the conditions became wet, djokovic was able to hit through and ran off with a stretch of 8 games. Not really sure if I would use that as an example.

8 games is still impressive, obviously the weather had an impact like in MC , ND smoked Rafa 1st set cuz it had just rained. But he has always handled Rafa much better on clay than Fed. And Fed went 4 sets many times with Rafa at RG.

People will say yeah but Nadal was so great 08 on clay more than other years, but in The 08 beatdown, I always hear Fed had mono etc that whole year. The evidence shows peak Rafa vs peak Djok would be 4 tight sets at worst imo at RG

 

[abmk]

8 games is still impressive, obviously the weather had an impact like in MC , ND smoked Rafa 1st set cuz it had just rained. But he has always handled Rafa much better on clay than Fed. And Fed went 4 sets many times with Rafa at RG.

People will say yeah but Nadal was so great 08 on clay more than other years, but in The 08 beatdown, I always hear Fed had mono etc that whole year. The evidence shows peak Rafa vs peak Djok would be 4 tight sets at worst imo at RG

I see it more most probably being :

2 relatively comfortable sets for rafa, one tight set for djokovic, one tight set for rafa -- 4 sets

I really don't think djokovic has handled rafa that much better than federer on clay, atleast not prime rafa. He beat prime rafa 3 times, fed beat him 2 times.
DJokovic took nadal to 5 sets in 2013 at RG, but fed took him to brink in Rome 06 , which was the closest in a 5-setter either of them got vs a prime version of nadal .

The MC one, I don't think had that much to do with the weather as much as it had to do with djokovic getting off to an amazing start and rafa not being sharp. then rafa settled in, djokovic's level dipped a bit and the 2nd set was closer.

 

[NatF]

I was just stating the difference based on watching those matches.



nope, more of Novak's errors were in 1-4 shot rallies than in the longer ones in that USO 13 final. He was just spraying the ball everywhere in sets 1 and 4.
I think @NatF had this breakdown.

Also dont you think it's odd Nadal was so much better in NA HC 13, than worse in USO 13 vs 10. Of course tournament form varies, but couldn't his form thruout the 13 HC season be a clue.

I'd have to see that stat, I remember a lot of long rallies won by Nadal, often off of a Novak error, or where he got the racquet on ball at least.

I remember in the official stats Djokovic was at 4 errors and 13 UE's in the first set, with one of those winners being off the serve IIRC. So he was very poor in the first set, he also fell away in the 4th quite obviously.

Using TA the stats are a bit different to the official stats, but looking at the breakdown of where the errors occurred - they have Novak at 28 errors in 1-3 shot rallies (they count 64 overall which is higher than the official stats). The next highest bracket is 4-6 shots where he made 17. So by their count 45/64 errors came within 6 shots. The numbers might be off to some degree but I think it's obvious (also from my own recollection and that of the guardian/telegraph live text writers) that Djokovic was spraying errors.

 

[Devin]

I was just stating the difference based on watching those matches.



nope, more of Novak's errors were in 1-4 shot rallies than in the longer ones in that USO 13 final. He was just spraying the ball everywhere in sets 1 and 4.
I think @NatF had this breakdown.

Yeah, I think I remember that 54 shot rally that ended with an error from Nadal.

 

[70後]

2008

 

[NatF]

2008 on clay and grass. 2013 on HC.

//thread.

 

[Rago]

2008 everywhere except maybe in New York.

 

[NatF]

2008 everywhere except maybe in New York.

Maybe? Definitely not in NYC man

 

[ibbi]

I think it comes down to 08 and 13. I would liken the comparison to comparing Djokovic's 2011 and 2015. The latter year might have maybe had a more complete game, but there was a seemingly ferocious unstoppableness about the earlier year that makes you wonder how anyone is going to beat them until they literally run themselves into the ground. Rafa's 2008 streak from Hamburg to Cincinnati is the most remarkable streak of recent times. It spanned 3 surfaces, 2 masters, 2 slams, and 1 Olympic gold, and he beat numerous top 10 players numerous times. Nadal 2013 couldn't play on grass.

 

[Rago]

Maybe? Definitely not in NYC man

If he plays like he did in Beijing at the Olympics, I believe that he'd be quite competitive. Probably suffered from a bit of burnout at the USO after winning 8 tournaments in 5 months.

 

[Fed881981]

Which Nadal would win the most?

The answer to this question depends also on the opponents. In 2008 he had to only deal with Federer with a mono. In 2010, Djokovic wasn't yet the players that we have seen since the DC cup of that year. In 2013, he had to face Djokovic and others, and in 2017 he has multiple great players around.
Overall, Nadal 2008/2010 would beat Nadal of 2013/2017 without much trouble.

 

[NatF]

If he plays like he did in Beijing at the Olympics, I believe that he'd be quite competitive. Probably suffered from a bit of burnout at the USO after winning 8 tournaments in 5 months.

Sure, but looking at their actual levels at the USO there's no doubt that 2013 is the heavy heavy favourite. I do think Nadal's best all surface form was mid 08 to mid 09.

 

[KINGROGER]

08 on clay and grass but really any 05-09 on clay. 07-09 slow HC. 2013 HC.

As for Fed vs Djokovic, Fed is the better clay courter but he was blocked by peak Nadal his entire clay prime. Djoko matches better, faced a weaker Nadal and he had a 2 year window (2015-2016) to hoover up the clay masters which is why he has 8 vs Fed's 6.

 

[noobforehand20]

i think that after rafa retires ( and surely federer) fans will get so nostalgic that they will start cliping together clips from previous years to current ones and create a match of the old rafa against the new one, and this will take the GOAT debate to new levels as people will use diffeent versions of x player from x time.

surely just as much as rafa and roger challenged each other to unprecedenten heights, fans will follow after they stop playing

 

[Phenomenal]

.