Need help with BH and more

[Traffic]

So testing out a video setup. Gopro on a standard camera tripod. Hitting with my son. Before this video, we had a little discussion as he was blowing me off the court. I'm not your junior tennis partner, I'm your dad and I'm old and you don't have a ride home. Hit 50% of your ability in a manner that is just above my skill level.

I'm having issues with letting the ball get too close to me and my BH is so flat when I have a BH. Any other insights and ways to work on it would be appreciated. Enjoy...don't laugh too hard...
practice with sonny boy

 

[GeoffHYL]

Footwork looked really sluggish. Result, late preparation.

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

So testing out a video setup. Gopro on a standard camera tripod. Hitting with my son. Before this video, we had a little discussion as he was blowing me off the court. I'm not your junior tennis partner, I'm your dad and I'm old and you don't have a ride home. Hit 50% of your ability in a manner that is just above my skill level.

I'm having issues with letting the ball get too close to me and my BH is so flat when I have a BH. Any other insights and ways to work on it would be appreciated. Enjoy...don't laugh too hard...
practice with sonny boy

Props to you for posting!

- You don't always split step
- When you do split step, you sometimes end up flat-footed [heels on the ground]. Try staying on the balls of your feet for that split-second and I think it will improve your dynamic movement and reaction

 

[hurworld]

Would be better if the video doesn't have borders for full screen viewing

 

[RetroSpin]

I thought you looked ok. You do look a bit tight. It's like you are trying so hard to use your core that you are giving up athleticism in the stroke. Relax and let it flow.

If you want more top on the two hander, you need to work on your racquet position.

 

[ByeByePoly]

I wish I was there so you could 2hbh cross court drill with an older guy.

I'm just sitting down to watch your video. Which one are you?

I think a good 2hbh starts with the shoulder arm triangle forward swing, but then the arms get a bit more independent into contact (particularly the left arm). We turn forward with relaxed arms and momentum ... and then boost rhs with left arm extension through contact. Sometimes to my eyes, your arm triangle stays too rigid with torso.

I like your 2hbh @02:44 ... to me you are delivering that left arm from shoulder like you are suppose to. Just hit more like that one.

 

[Traffic]

I like your 2hbh @02:44 ... to me you are delivering that left arm from shoulder like you are suppose to. Just hit more like that one.

You mean the one where the ball bounced right into my strike zone so I could have a good racquet take back, bend my knees and do a full swing? I'm going to have to work on getting my hitting partner to hit only that shot to me.

 

[Traffic]

Would be better if the video doesn't have borders for full screen viewing

I'm a Youtube newbie. Don't know what settings I'm supposed to set to pull that off...

 

[Traffic]

Props to you for posting!

- You don't always split step
- When you do split step, you sometimes end up flat-footed [heels on the ground]. Try staying on the balls of your feet for that split-second and I think it will improve your dynamic movement and reaction

I will try to keep that in mind. I think 6mos ago, I didn't have a split step. Ever.

 

[Traffic]

Footwork looked really sluggish. Result, late preparation.

Yes. For sure. I don't know that my fitness will get much better. But I am looking at ways to improve reaction times. I think @S&V-not_dead_yet tip on landing on the balls of my feet from a split step is going to be something I put some emphasis on.

 

[ChaelAZ]

Thanks for posting. I think you know overall on the BH side that you don't drop the racquet head enough and look to swing straight through often. Agree there. I think FH side you don't open enough and make forward contact. Often times that forces you to bring your elbow into your body. I do the same and have been working on better rotation to get the elbow forward. And then, simply better balance on the serve would be good as you tend to fall back. None of that keeps you form playing good points, but when you error you can see those are factors in them.

Good stuff man! And the edit is good.

 

[ChaelAZ]

Yeah, and fitness/footwork like mentioned, but damned if we can't say that for EVERY video posted for us rec folks.

 

[ChaelAZ]

And your son looks great man. Stoked to hear how he progress and where things go. My son kinda dropped off the map tennis wise since this summer so I don't even know if he will do the college thing. Really bummed about that wasted opportunity, but he has to make the choice and be the one with dedication. I think your son is on the right path.

 

[ByeByePoly]

Going to need better ankle braces.

 

[ByeByePoly]

You mean the one where the ball bounced right into my strike zone so I could have a good racquet take back, bend my knees and do a full swing? I'm going to have to work on getting my hitting partner to hit only that shot to me.

OK ... watched the entire video. You actually hit a good 2hbh. It wouldn't take that much to relax the arms a bit and add some shape to your 2hbh ... but that doesn't necessarily mean a better rec 2hbh. It does mean a "more fun" rec 2hbh.

Your future 2hbh ... pick one:

 

[Traffic]

Going to need better ankle braces.

I think I saw the ball during that play and ran past it. I think I won that point but my son wanted to call a "LET" because he thought he'd have to carry me to the car and drive us home.

 

[Traffic]

And your son looks great man. Stoked to hear how he progress and where things go. My son kinda dropped off the map tennis wise since this summer so I don't even know if he will do the college thing. Really bummed about that wasted opportunity, but he has to make the choice and be the one with dedication. I think your son is on the right path.

Thanks. Sonny boy is doing well. Played #1 and 2 singles this year. He wanted to try for State with the senior that played #1 singles (when he wasn't playing #1 doubles) as these 2 were our strongest pairs. But the senior decided to enter the play-offs with his long-time senior classmate and tennis buddy. So chances are, our school won't make it to State. (FWIW, a boy moved from Arkansas and went to varsity State last year. He didn't make the varsity team at my son's school this year to give you an idea of how competitive this area is)

He's having fun. He loves team tennis. JTT Nationals in Florida next month. He only does USTA tournaments to keep his skills sharp and use his rankings to get onto teams or club training. He swims competitively too; says he likes the swim atmosphere better than tennis. So just hoping he loves tennis and will play for years to come. He's started to come watch my 7.0MXD matches so I think he'll keep playing as an adult.

 

[Traffic]

OK ... watched the entire video. You actually hit a good 2hbh. It wouldn't take that much to relax the arms a bit and add some shape to your 2hbh ... but that doesn't necessarily mean a better rec 2hbh. It does mean a "more fun" rec 2hbh.

Your future 2hbh ... pick one:

I'll try to be aware of keeping my arm more straight and dropping my racquet head. I guess I have in my head that folks keep their racquet head up on the take-back but I get a bit lost from there and coming forward.

I was made aware that I don't keep my racquet head up on my take-back for my FH, so I have been trying to focus on that.

Too many things wrong with my game. Gotta just take nibbles on 1 or 2 things...

 

[J011yroger]

So testing out a video setup. Gopro on a standard camera tripod. Hitting with my son. Before this video, we had a little discussion as he was blowing me off the court. I'm not your junior tennis partner, I'm your dad and I'm old and you don't have a ride home. Hit 50% of your ability in a manner that is just above my skill level.

I'm having issues with letting the ball get too close to me and my BH is so flat when I have a BH. Any other insights and ways to work on it would be appreciated. Enjoy...don't laugh too hard...
practice with sonny boy

Play mini tennis to improve your backhand. Hit 3' over the net and land the ball in the service box.

Aim a foot over the net on your first serve.

Don't make a big circle with your hand on your forehand.

J

 

[ByeByePoly]

I'll try to be aware of keeping my arm more straight and dropping my racquet head. I guess I have in my head that folks keep their racquet head up on the take-back but I get a bit lost from there and coming forward.

I was made aware that I don't keep my racquet head up on my take-back for my FH, so I have been trying to focus on that.

Too many things wrong with my game. Gotta just take nibbles on 1 or 2 things...

My point with those two pics was simply making the point about racquet head below (and behind sometimes) hand at bottom/slot right before you swing forward. You could change absolutely nothing from your swing ... and add that racquet head drop to get a bit more topspin. Drop your hand lower also ... and even more topspin.

I can talk 2hbhs all day ... it's the only shot that matters. Wind me up at your own risk.

 

[ByeByePoly]

@Traffic ... Ferrer to me is a great model for a rec player wanting to add a little lag to their 2hbh. You can see him hit some pretty flat strokes, but with racquet head dropped (and behind) the hand. I think the "drop" adds low to high topspin. I think the "behind" provides the lag which is released by contact adding to rhs.

The other thing I like about Ferrer as a rec player model is the fact he goes into the lag right before he swings forward. (some players start hands forward first ... harder imo). In theory, you should be able to keep your exact same 2hbh stroke, but just rotate hands to Ferrer's lag position right before your forward swing. It doesn't matter if it's an active swing thought at first, it fades over time into muscle memory. I still have some "active" thought in mine, but really waited until this spring to go for the bigger "below and behind" lag. At its best ... this is what it feels like to me: loop back and down to slot sends racquet head naturally past my hands with a conscious active right hand action to set the lag. Note Ferrer's right hand position right before swing. That bowed back of right hand is common across all pro 2hbhs that have lag.

Seems it would be easy for you to try a couple in a practice session. I would be curious if it was in fact easy. I don't hit too many totally flat 2hbhs, but I tried some with the added Ferrer type lag this summer. I did not have much trouble, and it did seem to add some topspin to a stroke that would have been totally flat without the lag. My guess is once you started relaxing the arms and wrist to help with the lag, you would soon follow with lowering your hands for a more low to high swing.

I would differ with Jolly on the mini tennis 2hbh as a starting point for "left arm/hand training". I would just drop feed from baseline and hit whatever topspin you can at first. Start by keeping it inside baseline, and move targets forward over time. You want to end up being able to hit controlled loopers inside service line ... by then you are doing a lot right with left hand (low to high ... with lag).

Edit: track Ferrer swing path with his left hand and also racquet head. You can see if left hand only (if racquet head was even with hand) , he would be hitting without much topspin.

 

[Traffic]

Play mini tennis to improve your backhand. Hit 3' over the net and land the ball in the service box.

Aim a foot over the net on your first serve.

Don't make a big circle with your hand on your forehand.

J

Mini tennis. Got it.
Aim foot over net. Got it.
Not sure what it means to make a big circle with your hands...so limit motion of hands on take back to forward motion?

 

[J011yroger]

Mini tennis. Got it.
Aim foot over net. Got it.
Not sure what it means to make a big circle with your hands...so limit motion of hands on take back to forward motion?

Don't take your hand back independently of your torso, use your unit turn as your takeback.

J

 

[ByeByePoly]

Don't take your hand back independently of your torso, use your unit turn as your takeback.

J

I thought Traffic asked about BHs ... but I see the "and more" loophole in the title.

OK ... my turn to be confused ... which is my natural state. J, Talk about Mr. @Traffic 's FH @00:18. Looks like a fine upstanding unit turn FH to me. You mentioned the "big circle with the hands" ... I thought we all did some form of loop.

 

[Chas Tennis]

This thread is based on high speed video observations and a few other facts.

Long thread. Read #1. Then Post #51 states the conclusion and rest of the thread continues with details. I did not invent this piece of the biomechanics of some one hand backhands. But I spot-lighted what was going on with some of the top one hand backhands based on high speed video observations. Look at the videos.
https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/ind...and-waht-force-to-start-forward-swing.462997/

 

[J011yroger]

I thought Traffic asked about BHs ... but I see the "and more" loophole in the title.

OK ... my turn to be confused ... which is my natural state. J, Talk about Mr. @Traffic 's FH @00:18. Looks like a fine upstanding unit turn FH to me. You mentioned the "big circle with the hands" ... I thought we all did some form of loop.

J

 

[IowaGuy]

J

Maybe he's channeling Hewitt?

 

[J011yroger]

Maybe he's channeling Hewitt?

You call Lleyton Hewitt right now and you apologize.

J

 

[ByeByePoly]

Traffic hits

J

Still confused.

 

[IowaGuy]

Still confused.

Hewitt won 2 GS with a loopy and somewhat disconnected FH takeback. (including on grass!)

Jolly likes efficient motions on the FH... (which I agree it's probably best to model simplicity/efficiency)

 

[J011yroger]

Traffic hits


Still confused.

His unit turn is nearly complete by frame 3 in my picture, that's as far as you would turn to hit a fast deep ball. Look where his hand is. Then he continues to turn more like he is winding up to absolutely obliterate a ball (which doesn't happen) and his hand in that little bit of extra (unnecessary) turn goes on a great adventure and ends up over his head (beyond Hewittsville) by frame 5 for some reason.


J

 

[ByeByePoly]

Hewitt won 2 GS with a loopy and somewhat disconnected FH takeback. (including on grass!)

Jolly likes efficient motions on the FH... (which I agree it's probably best to model simplicity/efficiency)

I don't see the disconnected. He does a good unit turn in ends with high backswing ... pic #5

 

[ByeByePoly]

His unit turn is nearly complete by frame 3 in my picture, that's as far as you would turn to hit a fast deep ball. Look where his hand is. Then he continues to turn more like he is winding up to absolutely obliterate a ball (which doesn't happen) and his hand in that little bit of extra (unnecessary) turn goes on a great adventure and ends up over his head (beyond Hewittsville) by frame 5 for some reason.


J

Seems like unit turn completes at pic #5 ... final full shoulder turn.

 

[ByeByePoly]

J ... are you just suggesting more compact unit turn and hand less high?

 

[J011yroger]

J ... are you just suggesting more compact unit turn and hand less high?

No, I'm suggesting that a proper ready position would eliminate the need for the hand to go on its magical journey and get lost in the woods.

J

 

[ByeByePoly]

No, I'm suggesting that a proper ready position would eliminate the need for the hand to go on its magical journey and get lost in the woods.

J

ok ... I will just leave that one as we all have varying backswings, and big thing here has been get good unit/shoulder turn. Looks like Traffic has good shoulder turn. I would think backswing would vary with degree of flip or none. I don't go as high or behind as Traffic ... but fairly long/high because of minimal flip. I do stay on hitting side (barely) of body.

 

[Dragy]

to absolutely obliterate a ball (which doesn't happen)

Did you consider he was jammed with the spacing which affected his shot? Oh, this happened again at 0:27... and at 0:42... 1:50 was a tad better and good height, but still to close to the ball, so falling/pushing to the left... 2:46 got to better spacing, but only during the swing actually, not in advance, so also loss of power-spin-control.
So! I agree more compact backswing may generally have some good effect, but not sure if @Traffic gets jammed so frequently because of concentrating on backswing or just failing to adjust to the ball? Many contacts made too high also...

 

[J011yroger]

Did you consider he was jammed with the spacing which affected his shot? Oh, this happened again at 0:27... and at 0:42... 1:50 was a tad better and good height, but still to close to the ball, so falling/pushing to the left... 2:46 got to better spacing, but only during the swing actually, not in advance, so also loss of power-spin-control.
So! I agree more compact backswing may generally have some good effect, but not sure if @Traffic gets jammed so frequently because of concentrating on backswing or just failing to adjust to the ball? Many contacts made too high also...

No, all of that is irrelevant.

J

 

[ByeByePoly]

OK.. I will just leave that one as we all have varying backswings, and big thing here has been get good unit/shoulder turn. Looks like Traffic has good shoulder turn. I would think backswing would vary with degree of flip or none. I don't go as high or behind as Traffic ... but fairly long/high because of minimal flip. I do stay on hitting side (barely) of body.

 

[Dragy]

@Traffic i think you can go for Djokovic takeback, some adjustment from jour current:

 

[Dragy]

No, all of that is irrelevant.

J

Sure, one can just remove backswing and bunt the ball with chicken wing. Why you don't yourself?

 

[J011yroger]

Sure, one can just remove backswing and bunt the ball with chicken wing. Why you don't yourself?

Where do you get that line of reasoning from me saying that he was jammed being irrelevant?

J

 

[Dragy]

Where do you get that line of reasoning from me saying that he was jammed being irrelevant?

J

Well, you responded to OP stating he had issues with ball getting too close to him and you suggested getting rid of the huge circle loop. Should it solve his issue?

 

[J011yroger]

Well, you responded to OP stating he had issues with ball getting too close to him and you suggested getting rid of the huge circle loop. Should it solve his issue?

No, ball too close to you is a feet issue. The ball can be too close to you on a volley.

J

 

[Dragy]

No, ball too close to you is a feet issue. The ball can be too close to you on a volley.

J

I’d just go incrementally. Try to improve spacing, check how good spacing works with current backswing, judge if anything should be changed. I worry that shortening the backswing may facilitate getting away with bad spacing and camouflage the main problem. That may or may not happen, though.
I also think just tilting the racquet forward and to the right side fence will make this big loop very decent, Thiem-like, Sabalenka-like (+5 to hotenness).

 

[Traffic]

No, ball too close to you is a feet issue. The ball can be too close to you on a volley.

J

I seem to get too close to the ball on both BH and FH. What are some ways to work on that?

 

[J011yroger]

I’d just go incrementally. Try to improve spacing, check how good spacing works with current backswing, judge if anything should be changed. I worry that shortening the backswing may facilitate getting away with bad spacing and camouflage the main problem. That may or may not happen, though.
I also think just tilting the racquet forward and to the right side fence will make this big loop very decent, Thiem-like, Sabalenka-like (+5 to hotenness).

That's great, you can give whatever advice you want.

It's not going to change that he is taking the racquet back wrong and arming the ball, but that's clearly of no concern to you.

J

 

[J011yroger]

I seem to get too close to the ball on both BH and FH. What are some ways to work on that?

Mini tennis, hand feeds, wall hitting, anything in a very slow, controlled situation that gives you a ton of repetition to reprogram your spatial awareness.

The other thing I do is have a ball hanging from a string at contact hight and practice moving to it and swinging in slow motion and stopping at contact and seeing how your body is lined up. It's a slow process to build that kinesthetic sense and spatial awareness.

J

 

[Dragy]

It's not going to change that he is taking the racquet back wrong and arming the ball, but that's clearly of no concern to you.

He’s arming the ball because he has no room to swing with torso rotation. Give him some hand feeds at proper spacing, and he will be propelling that arm with outward swing powered by torso. While being jammed, he mostly uses his legs to push away from the ball and torso to lean away.

 

[J011yroger]

He’s arming the ball because he has no room to swing with torso rotation. Give him some hand feeds at proper spacing, and he will be propelling that arm with outward swing powered by torso. While being jammed, he mostly uses his legs to push away from the ball and torso to lean away.

Good, see, now you are giving your opinion and leaving me out of it. Perfect.

J