Not your everyday kick serve questions...

nitram10

New User
I have a few issues with my kick serve. I can hit a kick serve, although a little inconsistent some days I understand the overall concept. My question is in regards to placement. When I play against people with a really good kick serve I notice their "natural" placement is up the T on the deuce side and out wide on the ad side. Im not talking about when they are being agressive and going for the extreme angles I mean just their regular safe second kick serve they go in this direction. I can not for the life of me hit an out wide kick serve or up the T on the deuce side. My kick serve always goes wide on the deuce and up the T on the ad. What could be causing this? Could I be opening up too soon? Could my swing path be off(which I dont believe it is because I get the correct trajectory and kick direction)? Also when you aim a kick serve do you change your swing path or do you just change the amount of rotation of your body? For instance if I was going for the out wide kick serve would I just rotate my body more and stay closed in that direction? Thanks for any suggestions...
 

kvan

Semi-Pro
Unless it's really hurting your game or your body, do what feels natural... against righties, you'll be kicking to the backhand sides, which will make for a more difficult return anyways.
 

CoachingMastery

Professional
I have a few issues with my kick serve. I can hit a kick serve, although a little inconsistent some days I understand the overall concept. My question is in regards to placement. When I play against people with a really good kick serve I notice their "natural" placement is up the T on the deuce side and out wide on the ad side. Im not talking about when they are being agressive and going for the extreme angles I mean just their regular safe second kick serve they go in this direction. I can not for the life of me hit an out wide kick serve or up the T on the deuce side. My kick serve always goes wide on the deuce and up the T on the ad. What could be causing this? Could I be opening up too soon? Could my swing path be off(which I dont believe it is because I get the correct trajectory and kick direction)? Also when you aim a kick serve do you change your swing path or do you just change the amount of rotation of your body? For instance if I was going for the out wide kick serve would I just rotate my body more and stay closed in that direction? Thanks for any suggestions...

From your description, you are hitting a slice serve or a hybrid serve, not a kicker. A well-hit kick will kick out wide on the ad court, (assuming you are right-handed) if aimed to the backhand of a right-handed returner.

Of course, you could be aiming wrong and opening up early as you guessed. (Which defeats the object of hitting a kicker.)

The main problem I have seen players trying to learn to kick is they bring their hitting elbow forward towards the net too early, (often caused by the aforementioned opening up the shoulder plane too soon), which makes it impossible to hit a proper kick serve.
 

nitram10

New User
Thanks Dave I really enjoy your work. What about aiming the kick serve? do I just rotate my body more or open up more in that direction but keep the swing path the same? Also, even though my aim is off it is still kicking away from them. For example on the ad side it goes toward the T and kicks away from them, not back into them. Thats what make me think I am hitting it right just not aiming it correctly. Thanks.
 

Chas Tennis

G.O.A.T.
This article on the physics of the high level kick serve has detailed information on the spin rates, serve speed range, ball contact and other characteristics. Located in "TW University" then Stroke Analysis above on this page. Technical article, look especially at the high spin rates.
http://twu.tennis-warehouse.com/learning_center/kickserve.php

I would guess that you contact the back of the ball on the wrong area, maybe also the toss is wrong. You basic understanding of the kick serve needs work.

The only way to see your serve and especially the rapid racket motion leading to contact is to use high speed video.

The motion used in high level serves always includes internal shoulder rotation for racket head speed. I have been studying how the ball is contacted for the kick serve and so far it is too complicated for me to understand.

I believe that these are kick serves -
https://vimeo.com/40449544
After looking at this Stosur video I have considered the kick serve the most complex & difficult tennis stroke.

Another believed to be the kick serve.
https://vimeo.com/27528701

Once I studied the material presented here on the kick serve. The first night I used it was the best - it was completely effective in getting errors from my blocktime group.
http://tennis.about.com/od/serve/ss/servetwistsbs.htm

Normally, I get points from my mild kick serve but the heavy spin and adequate pace of a high level kick serve is not there.
 
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Raul_SJ

G.O.A.T.
On the kick serve, is the ball actually dwelling on the string bed longer and brushing across more of the racquet strings than on a flat serve?

Or is the dwell time essentially the same as the flat serve (~3-4 milliseconds) and it is mainly the upward racquet swing path that is imparting the topspin?
 

TennisCJC

Legend
Also, even though my aim is off it is still kicking away from them. For example on the ad side it goes toward the T and kicks away from them, not back into them. Thats what make me think I am hitting it right just not aiming it correctly. Thanks.

This bolded statement above leads me to believe you are hitting top/slice serve and not a kick serve. If you are R handed and your serve is moving L after the bounce, you are hitting a top/slice serve and not a kick serve.

A kick or twist serve from a R handed server should bounce to the R instead of the L. So, from the AD side, a kick serve landing at the center T should bounce back into the body of the returner.

I am not a teaching pro but try these things:

1. Turn more and stay turned longer with your shoulders
2. At first bring the toss back over your body and not out front. The toss should be to your L too round 11 to 12 o'c. Once you get the feel, you can move the toss a few inches into the court but still around 11-12 o'c in relation to your body. Tossing out front is for more aggressive serves but tossing over the body is easier to get net clearance and spin.
3. The swing path should go out toward your R more - think of hitting up and across - visualize carving the top of the ball off from 8 to 2 o'c with a swing path out toward the side fence.

If your serve bounces 4 to 6 feet high and moves to the R a bit after the bounce, then you are hitting a kick.

Both the top/slice and kick are great serves.
 

CoachingMastery

Professional
Thanks Dave I really enjoy your work. What about aiming the kick serve? do I just rotate my body more or open up more in that direction but keep the swing path the same? Also, even though my aim is off it is still kicking away from them. For example on the ad side it goes toward the T and kicks away from them, not back into them. Thats what make me think I am hitting it right just not aiming it correctly. Thanks.

Aiming can be body orientated or swing orientated. I usually recommend to players to simply turn the body more to aim more to the right or left. The problem players often encounter is after they toss they open back up to where they are most familiar, thus not really aiming with the body position. Then they wonder why the ball still goes somewhere else!

After mastery of the kick or any serve, you will be able to manipulate your swing more to accommodate desired aim. However, I've done articles showing how much the pros actually adjust their stance for various serves on each court.

Biggest thing is to stay sideways to allow your swing path to go up the inside portion of the ball which would be impossible if the hitting elbow comes forward too early. (Usually from opening up too early.)

Thanks for the kind words too! Best of luck!
 

mntlblok

Hall of Fame
Draw a line along the left side of yer front (left) foot after you've taken yer stance to serve. Move yer foot out of the way and draw another line aimed twenty degrees or so to the right of where that line is pointing. Put the left side of that same foot next to that new line. Hit some serves. You'll kick yerself for not having figgered that out yerself.

As to which direction that topspin serve kicks, it will kick to the left (as yers does) if you contact the ball on its right side. It will kick to the right if you contact the ball to the left of center. It will kick *massively* to the right if you find a way to contact the ball *way* around to the left. This will also mean that you will be swinging yer arm and racket way out to the right after contact. Look and see if that ain't the way Stosur (and everybody else) don't do it. :mrgreen:

One of the reasons that it's easier to manage this kicker into the ad court rather than the deuce court is that, if the serve lands a bit short, in the ad court, it not only can be at a nastier angle, but it will still land in the service box. In the deuce court, if it lands short, if it can land in the wrong side of the court (missing wide) - even though it was heading toward (a part of) the correct service box.
 

VeeSe

Rookie
Thanks Dave I really enjoy your work. What about aiming the kick serve? do I just rotate my body more or open up more in that direction but keep the swing path the same? Also, even though my aim is off it is still kicking away from them. For example on the ad side it goes toward the T and kicks away from them, not back into them. Thats what make me think I am hitting it right just not aiming it correctly. Thanks.

If you are right handed and it's going in that direction, you are definitely not hitting the kick serve. You are hitting the topspin slice serve (just meaning that it kicks in the opposite direction of a traditional kick serve), as mentioned above somewhere. The righty kick serve kicks to your right after the bounce, not to your left.
 

GoudX

Professional
I find that it helps to close the stance an extra 15 degrees or so for a kick serves, compared to a purely flat serve.

Also, ensure you are throwing the ball 'behind your head' as this allows you to extend out through the shot.
 
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