Positive debates on GOAT candidates

[TMF]

Between the open era and pre open era, there isn't much to discuss in which era is stronger.

Keep in mind the list of top 100 greatest players of all time are from the open era.

 

[Dan L]

Between the open era and pre open era, there isn't much to discuss in which era is stronger.

Keep in mind the list of top 100 greatest players of all time are from the open era.

You put Gonzales post-1968 at 1.5?

Gonzales peaked in the fifties.

 

[TMF]

You put Gonzales post-1968 at 1.5?

Gonzales peaked in the fifties.

No, his entire career.

 

[hoodjem]

Time for TAF.

 

[pc1]

Maybe I should write something about Pancho Segura. He may not be the all around GOAT but he's a forehand GOAT candidate.

 

[timnz]

Everyone knows that Laver won the amateur Grand Slam in 1962 and the Open-Era Grand Slam in 1969. His intervening pro years are worth recollecting, also.

Laver turned professional after completing the Grand Slam in 1962. He quickly established himself among the leading professional players such as Pancho Gonzales and Ken Rosewall. During the next seven years, Laver won the U.S. Pro Championships five times, including four in a row beginning in 1966. In the first half of 1963, Laver was beaten badly by both Rosewall and Hoad. Hoad won the first 8 matches against Laver, and Rosewall won 11 out of 13. By the end of the year, however, with six tournament titles, Laver had become the No. 2 professional player behind Rosewall.

In 1964, Laver and Rosewall both won seven important titles (plus four minor events), but Laver won 15 of 19 matches against Rosewall and captured the two most prestigious titles, the U.S. Pro Championships over Gonzales and the Wembley Pro Championship over Rosewall. In tennis week, Raymond Lee has described the Wembley match, where Laver came from 5-3 down in the fifth set to win 8-6, as possibly their best ever and one that changed tennis history. Lee regards this win as the one that began and established Laver's long reign as world number one. The other prestige title, the French pro, was won by Rosewall.

In 1965, Laver was clearly the No. 1 professional player, winning 17 titles and 13 of 18 matches against Rosewall. In ten finals, Laver won eight against the still dangerous Gonzales.

In 1966, Laver won 16 events, including the U.S. Pro Championships, the Wembly Pro Championship, and eight other important tournaments.

In 1967, Rocket won 19 titles, including the three tournaments that unofficially constituted the "Professional Grand Slam" (the London Indoor Professional Championship at Wembley, US Professional Championships, and the French Professional Championships), plus the trial-basis Wimbledon World Professional Championship. That tournament held on Wimbledon's fabled Centre Court was the only professional event ever staged on that court before the open era began. In the final Laver beat Rosewall 6–2, 6–2, 12–10.

Very good.

I would add to the following two to Laver's achievements. The tennis champions classics of 1970 and 1971. In 1971 Laver won 13 straight best of 5 matches against top quality opposition. The gap between matches was on average 6 days. Imagine facing Rosewall in the first round, then Newcombe, then Roche, then Emerson, then Ashe, then Okker (always a difficult opponent for Rod), then on & on for 13 matches best of 5 matches without loss. I know less about the 1970 tournament other than Laver only lost 1 match there.

What some thought of Lavers 1971 Tennis Champions Classic Achievement at the time:

http://news.google.com/newspapers?n...DMKAAAAIBAJ&sjid=FkoDAAAAIBAJ&pg=2713,4349824

 

[hoodjem]

You seem to be all consumed with CAREER numbers, not ability.

Achievements are the proof of ability.

Otherwise, all one has is subjective opinion based on impressions.

 

[hoodjem]

Laver Easily Beats Okker In Tennis Champs Classic
20 March 1971 NEW YORK (UPI) −

Rod Laver stood astride the tennis world today with an achievement that topped his two grand slams and would have broken the bank at Las Vegas, Nev., if the odds-makers had laid a line against him.
Laver completed perhaps the most spectacular “slam” in tennis history when he defeated Tom Okker of Holland, 7-5, 6-2, 6-1, at Madison Square Garden Friday night to give him 13 victories in 13 matches in the tennis champions classic.
Competing against the greatest tennis players in the world, Laver won 11 straight $10,000-winner-take-all matches, won a 12th match for $15,000, and beat Okker for the 13th match for a prize of $35,000. That gave him total earnings of $160,000 for sweeping through 13 matches unbeaten.

 

[CyBorg]

The best we can do is listen to the opinions of the best players and examine the skill sets of players.

I notice you state your opinions as if they are facts much of the time.

 

[Dan L]

I notice you state your opinions as if they are facts much of the time.

No, I do not usually give my own opinions, but I quote the opinions of the great players who actually experienced play against other greats.