Practice / Play ratio

[raiden031]

I'm a little discouraged in my usta season as mentioned in another thread. Getting crushed so far, lost (0,2) in singles, lost (2,1) in doubles at 4.0, and its really humbling for me. Anyways I'm a little worried about lack of time to really improve within my goal timeframe (I want to be bumped up to 4.5 at the end of 2010 season), which means I have this season and next season to improve.

I'm trying to create a better plan for how often to practice vs. play matches. I would say my strokes are all decent, but not effective enough yet to be a solid 4.0 player. I play a modern game with SW forehand and lots of open stance shots, but have a 1hbh that often lets me down (50% topspin, 50% slice). I have decent fitness and mobility and 28 y/o. My best strokes are forehand and 2nd serve (sometimes 1st serve is good, but often too low percentage). Everything else is mediocre.

So to get from low 4.0 to low 4.5 within that 2 year period (with maybe 10 hours a week to devote to tennis), what percentage of time would you recommend working on for each:

Serves
Groundstrokes
Volleys
Specialty Shots
Match Play

 

[jrod]

Do you work with a coach? If so, how many hours per week?

 

[raiden031]

Do you work with a coach? If so, how many hours per week?

no coach unfortunately. But in general I spend 8-10 hours a week hitting tennis balls with a racquet, which could mean wall, match, ball machine, etc.

 

[Cindysphinx]

Me, I would figure out what shot(s) cost you more points than any other. I would start with that. I think I recall your main interest is singles, so I wouldn't worry yet about what costs you points in doubles. Then I would work only on that until you start to see better results on that shot in matches. Rinse and repeat.

Chin up, Bucko!

 

[jrod]

no coach unfortunately. But in general I spend 8-10 hours a week hitting tennis balls with a racquet, which could mean wall, match, ball machine, etc.

My feeling is the leap from 4.0 to 4.5 is huge, and unless you are inherently gifted you may find that getting there is much more difficult than you are currently thinking. I started working with a coach several years ago and have progressed from a normal 3.5 to at best a weak 4.5 player (lose ~80% at this level). I have a LONG ways to go before being able to compete at this level and at my age (52) I fully realize I may never make it.

My assessment of the difference between 4.0 players and 4.5 players is that there is much more consistency, better shot selection, better footwork, and usually stronger weapons all the way around. Most 4.5 players I've met played HS and some college tennis, implying most have received some degree of coaching. At 4.5, the players are more fundamentally sound than at 4.0. There are numerous 4.0 players that have never received formal training and have quirky but effective games. I don't see these types of players ever progressing without establishing sound fundamentals.

In your case, you have youth on your side so with decent coaching and a good mix of match play and practice you stand a decent shot at it. Not knowing how solid your fundamentals are, its a little hard to comment exactly on the mixture of practice vs. match play. However, your struggles at 4.0 suggest to me you may have recently been bumped up from 3.5. If so, you probably stand to benefit more with focused practice sessions and less match play right now. As you continue, you can use your match play results as a reliable indication of your progress.

I don't know what the precise mix is, but a minimum of 50% practice would be desirable. A good coach can help establish focused practice sessions which are aimed at improving your fundamentals while simultaneously addressing strategy and common game point situations.

 

[raiden031]

Me, I would figure out what shot(s) cost you more points than any other. I would start with that. I think I recall your main interest is singles, so I wouldn't worry yet about what costs you points in doubles. Then I would work only on that until you start to see better results on that shot in matches. Rinse and repeat.

Chin up, Bucko!

I think its more complicated than that. For instance against 3.5s, my forehand is a weapon. Against 4.0s, my forehand is ineffective. Does that mean my forehand needs to improve through drills, or that my ability to play against 4.0s needs to improve by gaining more experience?

Against a better player, I feel like everything needs work. Against a weaker player, I feel like all my strokes are very strong. Thats why its hard to single anything out. I know I can single out my first serve percentage and my backhand stroke, but other than that its not so clear what needs work the most.

 

[raiden031]

In your case, you have youth on your side so with decent coaching and a good mix of match play and practice you stand a decent shot at it. Not knowing how solid your fundamentals are, its a little hard to comment exactly on the mixture of practice vs. match play. However, your struggles at 4.0 suggest to me you may have recently been bumped up from 3.5. If so, you probably stand to benefit more with focused practice sessions and less match play right now. As you continue, you can use your match play results as a reliable indication of your progress.

I don't know what the precise mix is, but a minimum of 50% practice would be desirable. A good coach can help establish focused practice sessions which are aimed at improving your fundamentals while simultaneously addressing strategy and common game point situations.

A coach is out of the question due to financial reasons unfortunately. I am constantly looking to refine my strokes to be more proper, but without coaching, obviously I will miss some things. But I am not the type of player to continue to use incorrect stroke mechanics despite being made aware that they are incorrect.

 

[FloridaAG]

Raiden - I forgot when you got serious but know that your improvement has been quite quick and impressive - I think your goal of moving from 3.0 (I think that is where you started) to 4.5 in the amount of time you set for yourself is overly ambitious. Can it be done, yes. But without coaching and more time to devote to practice and drilling than you seem to have available - I think it will be really hard for you. Nothing wrong with setting high goals for yourself, but you also seem to be getting very discouraged which seems a product of unreasonable expectations. Just my two cents, and I am not being critical just trying to help.

 

[raiden031]

Raiden - I forgot when you got serious but know that your improvement has been quite quick and impressive - I think your goal of moving from 3.0 (I think that is where you started) to 4.5 in the amount of time you set for yourself is overly ambitious. Can it be done, yes. But without coaching and more time to devote to practice and drilling than you seem to have available - I think it will be really hard for you. Nothing wrong with setting high goals for yourself, but you also seem to be getting very discouraged which seems a product of unreasonable expectations. Just my two cents, and I am not being critical just trying to help.

Well lets not look at it as going from 3.0 to 4.5 and just start from where I am right now.

Would you say going from low 4.0 to low 4.5 in 2 years is too ambitious? What is a more reasonable expectation?

 

[jrod]

A coach is out of the question due to financial reasons unfortunately. I am constantly looking to refine my strokes to be more proper, but without coaching, obviously I will miss some things. But I am not the type of player to continue to use incorrect stroke mechanics despite being made aware that they are incorrect.

I was the same way and found it nearly impossible to progress. My problem was similar to yours now, where against weaker players my strokes did not let me down very often (becuase the other player made the UE). When I started playing 4.0 level, my strokes inherent weaknesses were exposed more. The UE's were coming from my side of the net more often at this level.

The key is there are a lot of very subtle things with stroke mechanics that are difficult to self-diagnose. I can't tell you how many things I thought I had under control that were diagnosed as being vulnerable. Only with proper analysis, careful instruction, improved footwork/conditioning and tons (3+ years) of practice was I able to make measurable progress.

I understand the economic constraint, but one shouldn't underestimate the value of a trained professional; they can help you progress more efficiently and keep you from falling into a pattern of vulnerability. Perhaps seeing a coach like 1x per month along with some on-line material and a video camera you might be able to get others to weigh in???

 

[eagle]

Raiden,

If coaching is out of the question, then perhaps use of a camcorder is an option.

We all have mental pictures of how we play, how we hit, or how we move on the court. Getting a video of oneself even during practice is normally an eye opener. It was for me. I thought my footwork was good but seeing it on video revealed to me that I am lazy. Yikes!

After about a month of videos where I consciously force myself to "sit on the bench" and get my feet actively moving, I've progressed enough that I'm more mobile and more consistent in split stepping. The video offers proof and so do the positive results on the court. It has made a huge difference for me.

My goals are less ambitious than yours but perhaps this could be a way along with other things you can do to get you to your target level.

r,
eagle

 

[Cindysphinx]

I think its more complicated than that. For instance against 3.5s, my forehand is a weapon. Against 4.0s, my forehand is ineffective. Does that mean my forehand needs to improve through drills, or that my ability to play against 4.0s needs to improve by gaining more experience?

Well, both probably. If by "ineffective" you mean that you're not blasting the ball past the 4.0, that may not mean your FH needs work. If by "ineffective" you are making more errors than you think you should make in response to the 4.0's ball, then maybe it would need work.

Against a better player, I feel like everything needs work. Against a weaker player, I feel like all my strokes are very strong. Thats why its hard to single anything out. I know I can single out my first serve percentage and my backhand stroke, but other than that its not so clear what needs work the most.

I guess my point is that if you can single out your BH and first serve as problem areas, then it may make a lot of sense to work on those first. If it were me and I had to predict which of those two is most likely to cost you points in singles, I would guess the BH.

Anyway, I have been bumped twice, so I can relate to what you say. Against a better player, everything needs work. Against a weaker player, everything looks strong. And it is possible to have an abysmal stroke that doesn't cost you many points because it doesn't come into play much. For instance, right now my BH half-volley is a complete mess. It doesn't cost me points though, even in doubles. My groundstrokes -- especially FH -- are where I cough up points needlessly or miss opportunities to finish points (or set my opponent up to whip me). So I work on groundstrokes, not the BH half-volley.

I guess all I'm saying is that I have managed to improve better when I pick one thing and focus on it rather than try to address several things at once. YMMV, of course.

 

[FloridaAG]

Well lets not look at it as going from 3.0 to 4.5 and just start from where I am right now.

Would you say going from low 4.0 to low 4.5 in 2 years is too ambitious? What is a more reasonable expectation?

Its hard to say - I don't think you can separate it as you have had to do all of the building in a short period of time - ie. building fundamentals etc., rather than having the base from when you were a junior, then picking it up and getting back in the groove. I am no coach or expert, so this is just an opinion. If you play 8-10 hours a week, without real instruction - it may well be hard to achieve. Possible but hard. The other 4.0s are probably palying the same amount as you. I think it is going to take you much of this year to improve to the point where you are comfortable playing at 4.0 and getting more competitive. Whether you then can use that for the second year to bump up, is hard to say. I think it is going to be hard work. Doable but will take effort and time. I think you just need to focus on improvement and not worry so much about rating and whether or not you are bumped.

 

[raiden031]

Well, both probably. If by "ineffective" you mean that you're not blasting the ball past the 4.0, that may not mean your FH needs work. If by "ineffective" you are making more errors than you think you should make in response to the 4.0's ball, then maybe it would need work.

I don't think I hit more errors against the 4.0 ball, instead its that the point lasts longer because the 4.0 is not pressured by my shots, and since somebody has to miss at some point, it might as well be me because I'm not as consistent.

I guess my point is that if you can single out your BH and first serve as problem areas, then it may make a lot of sense to work on those first. If it were me and I had to predict which of those two is most likely to cost you points in singles, I would guess the BH.

True, but I don't have a good idea for how much to work on these strokes verses match play. I'm trying to reassess my priorities because I'm at the point where its not as obvious as it once was. I no longer feel l know what I need to do to move forward (As far as priorities go with my limited time availability). What used to be a small number of things holding me back, now appears that everything is holding me back.

 

[raiden031]

Whether you then can use that for the second year to bump up, is hard to say. I think it is going to be hard work. Doable but will take effort and time. I think you just need to focus on improvement and not worry so much about rating and whether or not you are bumped.

Now that I think about it, getting the bump up might be overly ambitious because lots of people don't get bumped even when they should for various reasons such as having a weak doubles partner or not improving until after the rated season ends, but they are still ready for the next level by the next season. Maybe I should say I want to be dominating at 4.0 within 2 years, instead of having a 4.5 next to my name in tennislink.

 

[larry10s]

at least try to get a lesson for 1 hour with a tennis pro. tell him/her your goals , time and financial constraints. find out from a trained eye what the best and worst of your game and what needs to be fixed and how to go about it. video is so important. you cant beleive you look like that or do those things when you see yourself. hi-techtennis.com and www.tennisoxygen.com are 2 sites where you can send videos of yourself and get an analysis comparing your strokes side by side with a tennis pro. very helpful to help focus on specific technical things you need to improve on. lastly your strokes seem ineffective against the 4.0s could be because #1 their strokes are stronger so your ball is not as forcing #2 their ball to you is stronger than you are used to . as you get used to that type of ball you will respond to it better. #3 definitely you need a first serve that would be a priority. # 4 get your back hand to where you can rally with it. it will keep you in the point until you get something you can run around and use you forehand.

 

[FloridaAG]

Now that I think about it, getting the bump up might be overly ambitious because lots of people don't get bumped even when they should for various reasons such as having a weak doubles partner or not improving until after the rated season ends, but they are still ready for the next level by the next season. Maybe I should say I want to be dominating at 4.0 within 2 years, instead of having a 4.5 next to my name in tennislink.

I agree that this is probably a better way for you to think about it

 

[fuzz nation]

Howdy raiden,

Even if you can't hire a coach, I'd strongly recommend a quick lesson at some point to shore up your serve. There's a lot going on with that specific shot and without a trained eye to lend some guidance, it's pretty hard for any of us to dial in our own motion based only on how it feels. The tempo of a proper motion must be deliberately ingrained so we can repeat it with confidence and a teacher should be able to give you one or two cues to focus on when you practice on your own. That person should also be able to diagnose some potential causes for your inconsistency with your first ball.

Having some significant time to workout at the courts can be invaluable as long as you have some dedicated hitting partners and maybe a bucket of balls. If you network like crazy and occasionally get together with a serious hitter who agrees to knock you around, that ought to force you to learn to move more efficiently and grind consistently under pressure. Jimmy Connors was famous for being able to exhaust himself in only a 20-30 minute grind on the practice courts by going 100% after every ball. That's something that would be good for any of us in only a 5-10 minute helping, right?

If your networking gets you a couple of hitting pals who are also dedicated to improvement, you can help each other with good drills, serious grinds, and occasional competition. One of the best ways to improve your return of serve is to have a pal serve to you from up at the service line - this is my favorite method for getting a more solid return together and it's the second shot of every point. Without a hitting partner, you just can't practice that.

Also pay attention to keeping your rallies neutral instead of giving up sitters, especially when you're on defense. Your backhand doesn't need to be a rifle as long as you can consistently penetrate the back box with it. In my coaching this spring, I've been noticing this basic issue among baseliners. When one player leaves a rally ball short at the service line, the other guy can bring the misery, but deeper shots that land half way into the back box can deny an opponent the initiative. Match experience is valuable, but I think that you're more likely to get some progression in your game if you keep after those practice sessions, too.

 

[Blake0]

First of all..i don't recommend training anything..unless you have good form. A coach or posting a video would be beneficial to know if you have good form. I played tennis 1-2 days without a coach..then 2 years with school coaches..then recently got a pro coach almost a year ago. Considering how much i improved..i'd say..5% (basically got used to the ball bofrom hitting the first week. 20-25% with the 2 years with school coaches. the rest from my coach i have now . So having a coach is really GOOD. You don't need to have a really good coach, just any coach with good tennis experience is fine. The reason why i only improved 20% from school coaches is because i only played about 30 minutes a day.

Once you have good form/technique you should practice:
1 hour of serves.
2 hour of groundstrokes.
1 hour of volleys.
1 hour of specialty shots..
5 hours of match play. (play 21, or a set, or something)
And thats your 10 hours of tennis i'd recommend for a week..and also practice quality..don't get lazy..or else it's better not practicing at all really..

 

[chess9]

Yes, some excellent points above.

1. Don't practice unless you know you are practicing properly. You can't see the errors you are making without film and/or the trained eye of a professional coach.
2. IMHO, one hour of coaching followed by 4 hours of practicing what you learned, is a good prescription. Look at most training academies. The kids might spend an hour hitting high topspin moonballs back and forth. Looks stupid until you realize that most of us hit too low over the net and with little to no topspin. The kids might spend an hour playing actual games, but they've also spent 2-4 hours drilling.
3. Take some video and post it here. You will get tons of good advice, and might improve your ability to critique your own strokes.

I'm not one who thinks you need incredible talent to reach 5.0. Your goal to reach 4.5 by the end of next year is very attainable, provided you aren't playing so much that you are REINFORCING BAD HABITS. This is the number one failure of recreational players, IMHO. Essentially, they perfect their faults as far as possible, and just live with them. Here's an example: The long swing with a unit turn. Watch most older 4.0-4.5 players and you will see a lot of very compact swings with no unit turn, and 'just getting by' leading with the elbow backhands. Few of them hit heavy topspin shots, and likewise they don't have long, fluid swings. There is nothing wrong with this approach, as long as you don't have unrealistic goals about improving. However, in my experience, the 4.0 wants to become a 4.5 without going through the very difficult training stage, so many are frustrated.

One other thing about playing at 4.5. You'd better be able to run fast and all day. At 4.5, the running gets into the serious category. The reason one sees so few 4.5 and above singles players over 60 is primarily because of the running.

Good luck, mate.

-Robert

 

[LeeD]

Good advice...
I'd only like to add that analysis is the main solution right now. You gotta figure out your strengths and weaknesses. With strengths, like maybe a 5.5 serve or something, you can work around your weaknesses, and have a chance to get easy points.
Without one of a few real strengths, the path to solid 4.5 can be really long and ardous.
You know I claim "4.0" for myself. But I can hang with most 4.5's and 5.0's because of a strong lefty serve, excellent volleys, and some match play experience. I lose out with old age, bad eyes, slow reactions, and no alley to alley court coverage. But strengths can overcome bad liabilities, at times.
Without a real big stroke, isa gonna be tough.
Post more vids. No coaching is handicap, but maybe you can befriend some better players who would help out with tips and analysis.

 

[Nellie]

If your goal is to be a 4.5, I think you need to play with 4.5's and get used to the game. You may need to look beyond USTA leagues and play more tournements. By the way, I find that the 4.5 have very good conditioning.

 

[LeeD]

Hard to catagories anything in the real world...
I know a few 5.0's and 4.5's who are in the worst condition of anyone who does sports, and they do just fine at their level. Of course, like the thread on MarcRossett, they used to be 6.0 or higher level players, now just fast, lazy, slow, but still having the skills of the older years.
Sorta applies to me, only from a lower level to a lower level.

 

[jrod]

3 Ways to Avoid Paying a Pro to Improve

If your goal is to be a 4.5, I think you need to play with 4.5's and get used to the game. You may need to look beyond USTA leagues and play more tournements. By the way, I find that the 4.5 have very good conditioning.

One inherent problem with this suggestion is that most 4.5 players are looking to play equal or better players, so it can be difficult to find players willing to play down often enough to benefit from it. When I was working hard on improving my game, I would often have to shell out $ to make it worth their while (many were club pro's). This can get costly over time, so you need to look for other ways. Here are 3 suggestions that worked well for me:

1. Nemisis - One option is to find players at your level or even beneath your level who have games that match up well against you, or more specifically, you find difficult to beat. For example, I play better against flat ball hitters, preferably righties. I found a 3.5 lefty-topspin player that was ridiculously difficult to play, so I engaged with him 1x per week over the course of 6 months. I can't tell you how much playing this mini-Rafa helped improve my backhand.

2. Women- Another possibility is to hit with higher ranked women. My neighbor was a pro at a nearby club for over 20 years. She wanted to hit with a male player, so for several years she enlisted me to hit with. Even though she didn't hit the ball as heavily as some of the guys can at NTRP 4.5, she could place the ball consistently and accurately. This was great for improving my consistency.

3. Juniors - The last area where I found willing participants was with junior level players. Often, the coaches of promising junior level players are looking for older, seasoned (wiley?) players to hit with their students. I happen to have a son who is a junior and managed to intermingle with his crowd, mostly high school players who are ranked 4.0-5.0. This can be hit or miss, but I can attest to the fact that some of these kids can really hit the ball and can run anything down, all day. It is a very symbiotic relationship and usually benefits both parties. I continue to benefit immensely from this aspect of my relationship with my son and his buddies.

Hopefully this helps Raiden.

 

[Nellie]

^^^That is why I recommended playing tournements, but that is also an expensive way to go.

By the way Raiden, I was paying a varisty guy at the Maryland to hit with me for while. Really great fun, and he could court time for free at the TCCP bubble. You can look up their coach and he will hook you up with players looking for extra cash.

 

[LeeD]

I know we've butted heads before, but still.....
Post some vids. Like if you can hit like Inknit from the baseline, you have the pace, depth, and movement to get above 4.5.
If you can serve like old Lawman, you have the above.
If you can volley like that conceited Aussie Junior lefty, you have 5.5 volleys.
Now work on your return of serves, bounce you second serves over peoples heads, and calm down your first serve motion till it goes in 50%, and within 2' of your desired placement, and you will have the shots.
With the shots, you need some decent court coverage, something I don't have. At least alley to alley 5 shots, and the ability to cover almost any drop shot or angle just inside the service line.
Now work on making your opponent constantly have to cover those shots....now you're 4.5.