Presidential Poll

[ChrisNC]

NEWSFLASH: They just found the missing link.

Everytime someone finds anything resembling a human ancestor, those who are searching for a reason not to believe in God jump on it as the proof they need to continue living the way they want. If you live like there's no God, you better be right.

BTW, I'd hardly call Flores Man the "missing link." While intersting; if anything, it simply proves the existance of Hobbits (kidding about the Hobbits, of course)

 

[Gatsby007]

Perf,
I regretfully have to respect your opinion and move on. I will however continue to pray for you.

 

[perfmode]

NEWSFLASH: They just found the missing link.

Everytime someone finds anything resembling a human ancestor, those who are searching for a reason not to believe in God jump on it as the proof they need to continue living the way they want. If you live like there's no God, you better be right.

BTW, I'd hardly call Flores Man the "missing link." While intersting; if anything, it simply proves the existance of Hobbits (kidding about the Hobbits, of course)

The Flores man sure looks like a chimp to me...

 

[Gatsby007]

I just wanted to find out if the knew statements from Usama would possibly make any of you re-think your support for Kerry? For some reason Bin-Laden wants W. out of the White House, and it's not becuase he doesn't like Bush's health-care ideas. I believe Bin-Laden has actually just done the opposite of what he intended to do. That's the best campaign commercial by far in the whole election series.

 

[thejerk]

Max, I didn't say I don't believe in evolution. I do think it is possible. However, as you noted, it is a theory. I realize that life on the Earth is only possible because of the elements of Earth.

Even if we have only found gas giants, we can only see something that big. If life evolved, it would have to evolve everywhere possible. Life did not begin because two rocks slammed together, that is absurd. Who said life could only evolve on earth type planets. Speaking of SETI even Sagan knew that pointing a reciever into any direction would pick up something if there is anything out there.

I do agree, somewhat agree with you, that life is likely not going to happen on many planets and many suns. The odds of it evolving once is greatly more than what I consider possible. They would be looking as hard as we. If we found one we would probably try sending a message, even if it took 1000 years to get there. The thrust of the whole matter is that there are just to many suns for evolution to not have spread life everywhere. If it was one in a million we would still be surrounded by noise. How loud does it have to be if you are looking?

Just a theory of mine, but, I think it is possible that all of the other suns may have been placed where they are the for quantum effects they have on the earth, over time, if you will.
I'm not saying a believe this to be fact, just a possibility, along with all the other countless possibilties.

It is just that no matter the likely hood of life being out there, if it is it would be everywhere. Sheer numbers. I am not disagreeing with you completely. I thought of many of the holes you did and more. All in all, even places where we have found gas giants doesn't preclude inhabitable planets by earth type beings. My point is inhabitable planets would be inhabited. Don't be a zenophobe.

Coda, the above is just a pet theory of mine. It is just for fun. If there are weaker signals than what we can create, there must also be stronger, say the odds. We are on the edge of Milkyway, just pointing a receiver toward the middle gives you how many possibilities. Pointing three ways, toward the middle, sides give alota possibilities.

Perf. Churchhill didn't mind being disliked. They called him an alarmist in the 30's. Many more lives would have been saved if everyone wasn't worried about "just getting along."

 

[Coda]

Has anyone happened to have read the article "The Read Truth About Iraq" from the November 1st edition of US News? The author admits the fact that Iraq did not have weapons of mass destruction. Then he points out that the real issue is when, not if Saddam would put his weapons on track.

Paraphrasing now(all of these quotes are from the Duelfer Report): At this point in time, Saddam would probably be a diminishing threat, but he wanted to recreate Iraq's weapons programs, including nuclear. He was determined to develop ballistic missles and tactical chemical weapons. He also retained the industrial capacity to restart these programs and he also increased from 96-02 his military industrial spending 40 times over. The Duelfer report says "Iraq would have been able to produce mustard agents in a period of months and nerve agents in less than a year or two." He also retained his his scientists and his technicians "needed to restart a potential biological weapons program," and he "intended to reconstitute long-range delievery systems...potentially were for WMD." These conclusions were based on interviews with Saddam, his advisers and his weapons scientists. "Prohibited goods and weapons were being shipped into Iraq with virtually no problem." Saddam's cheif nuclear advisor Obeidi was even ordered to bury a huge barrel in his garden that contained components of an actual nuclear weapons centrifuge in addition to nuclear instructions. Obedi wrote in his book: "Iraqi scientists had the knowledge and the designs needed to jump-start the nuclear weapons program. And there is no question we could have done so very quickly." The report makes it very clear that there were no weapons when troops marched into Iraq, but Saddam had the ability and was simply biding his time until the UN removed sanctions were ended or eroded. And on the side he was turning into the oil for food program into an 11 billion dollar fund. Zuckerman, the author also points out "What stopped Saddam was the will of a few strong-minded leaders who believed in a more forceful response than simply joining hands and singing Kumbaya." (End of paraphrasing)

Bush saved us from Saddam, there is no doubt about it. There weren't any weapons in Iraq, but that doesn't mean Saddam doesn't just stop being a threat. Unfortunately, we really will never know what would have happened if Saddam remained in power to build nuclear weapons or biological agents. Bush saved American lives and we should all be thankful.

 

[Max G.]

"If life evolved, it would have to evolve everywhere possible."

Why? Evolution says absolutely nothing that would imply that.

Besides, whe don't even know what "possible" is. We know that the Earth has life. We don't know whether different sorts of life could be possible on not-earth-type-planets. We don't know whether life would be possible on earth-type-planets but under different conditions. We have no evidence for or against.

"However, as you noted, it is a theory"

In the scientific definition of the word theory... which isn't quite the same as the common usage of "theory" as "Something that we don't know is true."

http://talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-misconceptions.html#proof
http://talkorigins.org/faqs/evolution-fact.html

 

[perfmode]

I just wanted to find out if the knew statements from Usama would possibly make any of you re-think your support for Kerry? For some reason Bin-Laden wants W. out of the White House, and it's not becuase he doesn't like Bush's health-care ideas. I believe Bin-Laden has actually just done the opposite of what he intended to do. That's the best campaign commercial by far in the whole election series.

Yea, I wouldn't be surprised if that wins the election for Bush. I am kind of skeptical though. Bin Laden is NOT a stupid man. He knows about this kind of stuff. What if Bush was actually good for him and he wanted Bush to remain in power? This would be a cunning way to do it. We've seen the links between Bush's family and the Bin Ladens already.

 

[Sacco]

Bush saved us from Saddam, there is no doubt about it. There weren't any weapons in Iraq, but that doesn't mean Saddam doesn't just stop being a threat. Unfortunately, we really will never know what would have happened if Saddam remained in power to build nuclear weapons or biological agents. Bush saved American lives and we should all be thankful.

At least Britian makes the pretense of attempting to impeach Blair; in America we reward cowardly, lieing, Bible-thumping, war-mongering, money first, fratboy, little Hitler selected presidents with thank yous.

O.K. Coda-- Thank you, Bush! Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

And we always ask ourselves how people could have supported the Nazis-- well stop asking, we're making that history right here, right now, on this board and throughout the world.

 

[Coda]

Do you think Bush is cowardly? He is risking his entire career and his reputation for something that he believes in and in the end will protect us. And we're suddenly ****'s? I don't see Bush lining up Muslims into a gas chamber do you? The common masses are not being brainwashed into supporting a war bent on racial domination and genocide. You cannot and should not attempt to even compare Bush to Hitler. We are fighting this war for American security. I think it's quite humorous really that you can only insult Bush rather than discuss the true facts. Saddam did not have weapons, but he certainly had the ability and with his hatred for the US you cannot tell me we would have been guaranteed that he wouldn't have started weapons programs again.

 

[Max G.]

"Saddam did not have weapons, but he certainly had the ability" so do a whole boatload of other countries.

And guess what? With this war, we've dramatically increased the number of them that have a hatred of the US, hence INCREASING the danger to us.

 

[Coda]

"Saddam did not have weapons, but he certainly had the ability" so do a whole boatload of other countries.

So you're saying what exactly? Don't stop this threat? Stop the other countries? I certianly agree with we need to go after N. Korea, but one country at a time.

And guess what? With this war, we've dramatically increased the number of them that have a hatred of the US, hence INCREASING the danger to us.

So you don't want this war because it will make people not like us? If that's your way of thinking, then you've already let the terrorists win. That's what they want us to do, put out tail between our legs and run away. We can't let the terrorists or any rogue nation win. And if your comments are taken together, you want the US to also take out other countries which would go against the second comment about them hating us. Further, the war shows we won't take crap from nobody. I think two of our buildings for two countries is good math. Although the war spreads American hatred it will make people think twice if they want to attack the US...that is unless Kerry is elected, but that is a completely different subject.

at least we can agree S&Ving is the way to go

 

[perfmode]

"Saddam did not have weapons, but he certainly had the ability" so do a whole boatload of other countries.

So you're saying what exactly? Don't stop this threat? Stop the other countries? I certianly agree with we need to go after N. Korea, but one country at a time.

And guess what? With this war, we've dramatically increased the number of them that have a hatred of the US, hence INCREASING the danger to us.

So you don't want this war because it will make people not like us? If that's your way of thinking, then you've already let the terrorists win. That's what they want us to do, put out tail between our legs and run away. We can't let the terrorists or any rogue nation win. And if your comments are taken together, you want the US to also take out other countries which would go against the second comment about them hating us. Further, the war shows we won't take crap from nobody. I think two of our buildings for two countries is good math. Although the war spreads American hatred it will make people think twice if they want to attack the US...that is unless Kerry is elected, but that is a completely different subject.

at least we can agree S&Ving is the way to go

By trying to fight the terro's, we are just going to breed more hate. We need to mind our own ****ing business. That way, no one will have a reason to terrorize us. They hate us because of unjust things we do in foreign countries. If we could just mind our business, we wouldn't have to worry about them. It's not a matter of "letting them win". It's about being sensible and figuring out why we're in this ****hole to begin with.

 

[Jonas]

As stated earlier, every poll on security and who would handle the war on terror better has the President at huge leads. This election is about who will keep us safe. I hate to say it, but it looks like Bin-Laden to the rescue. The latest polls (time,newsweek) already have the President picking up a couple points since yesterday. I believe he will pick up a few more between now and Tuesday.
Perfmode, Are you suggesting that the President and UBL are working together to get the President re-elected???
I have seen Joe Lockhart interviewed a few times since and really kind of feel sorry for him. They (dnc) have ran a pretty close race untill now and cannot pin this UBL tape on the Republicans without tottaly throwing the elcetion. They have to just keep quiet about it and hope for the best. That's their only hope.

 

[Sacco]

Coda. I'm sorry, but you present no logic or facts, only propaganda. Quotes are not facts, just opinions, even if they are in print. If I was to use YOUR logic system, any other country should attack the United States because they have the potential to be a present threat at a future date. I do not agree with this logic. But, using your rationale, any other country would have a point. We are the only country to use the nuclear bomb in war. We have proven we are dangerous too an extreme, and by YOUR RATIONLE, the United States as a possible future threat should be eliminated. Your logic leads to mass nuclear war, and if you believe in such things, Judgement Day (world without end ending for the not chosen).

I would guess, if you were having a good faith argument with me, there would ACTUALLY be more personal reasons of maintaining power and wealth in your motivation to make these obviously insane arguments.

 

[Gatsby007]

Perf: If we left the terrorrists alone they would not be satisfied. They want to kill us because we are the infidells. It is because of thier extremist views if Islam that we do not share with them. Please remember the US is not the only country that has been terroized. WE don't need to mind our own business, we need to hunt them down and crush them. Hopefully that is a point that we all can agree on.

 

[tennisboy87]

I think your first reason should become less important as you become an adult and is not a real good reason.
Your 2nd reason is sound. I disagree, but it's a matter of opinion.
Your 3rd reason is sound, too. Trust your feelings and instincts.
Fourthly, I can understand why you, as a Catholic, would feel that way and vote for Bush.
You have expressed yourself in a better reasoned way than most adults and have obviously put some thought into it. You will be a better than average voter as an adult. PS - I'm voting for Kerry.

Thanks for your opinions. I appreciate your comments.

 

[tennisboy87]

I also believe that abortions are personal and the government should not get involved. Instead of whining about women "murdering their unborn children", we should worry about people killing people who are actually alive (ie. murder in the US, terrorism [*cough* us occupation of iraq*cough*] and war).

Abortion IS killing people who are actually alive.

 

[Sacco]

And may I add, tennisboy87, war is killing people too (many who are civilians, senescent and innocent).

Do you believe violence begets violence?

To greatGatsby007,

we need to hunt them down and crush them.

G-d help some of us if this is your Solution Step. I do agree that ignoring a problem is foolish, but whether you belive life is sacred or not, this is no video game-- there are no resurrections, just consequences. And every person that kills another person will have to take their justifications and reasoning to the grave, and some believe beyond. When we are young-- "we feel immortal for a limited time", but this is not so. Reality is the rite of passage to adulthood, not age.

In tennis our bodies remember that drive to youth-- it's the microcosmic utopia I wish we could all strive for. Our times, like many, are so hard, but if we can accept others (not forgive or forget) that do us wrong and adapt to (not crucify or destroy) the others needs-- we can grow as a united world population. And yes, this sounds like hippie tennis talk, but it's our love/drive/desire that brings us to this board, not our hate (hopefully).

Maybe that last paragraph was bull$hit, but I meant it anyway. :wink:

 

[Gatsby007]

With all due respect Sacco, You just don't get it. Some people won't see the threat of terrorism untill they are beating on thier doors at home. I don't understand your video game analogy. No-one wants to kill innocent civilians. Do you think the terrorist groups are innocent and we are just being schoolyard bullies?? Hunting them down and crushing them is the action that has been taken by our current President and the plan preposed by the current challenger. That is one thing that both men agree on. I would like to hear what you think should be done to the terrorist organizations to better protect the US and the world.

 

[Sacco]

First off, working with and involving in the decision making a majority of the world community; in the United Nations, for example, this would mean no Security Council of elites, but ALL votes by General Assembly.

The sanctions in Iraq are an example of the Security Council gone wrong and coerced to a degree. These sanctions enforced on Iraq by the United Nations (led by the United States through threats), starved and killed thousands upon thousands of Iraq's citizens. And since Saddam had all the power and was hording all the supplies, the poor working families starved. These are some of the same families that hated Saddam and his regime, and if they had NOT been so beaten down by Saddam and U.S. sponsored sanctions-- they would have possibly revolted, and with support they would have taken the country over themselves. The end of the Gulf War where senior Bush told the troops to pull out on the revolters and left them to hang is a prime example.

Next, the weapons inspections worked. Your selected president lied. Blix was doing a good job. They worked perfectly. This is proven by the facts, not the science fiction the Pentagon and current administration spewed and continue spewing to a lesser degree.

Those are very general points.

Which specific terrorist/ freedom fighting groups are you referring to? Each would have to be looked at on a case by case evaluation. And I, and you, can debate this on a layman level, but we, of course, are not as qualified as non-partisan, hopefully non-nationalist, experts from all countries coming together to actually make some more real world solutions... other and apart from all out slaughter and war.

As for the video game reference, your words "hunt them down and crush them"-- this sounds like your talking about INSECTS not people like you and me, working people with families, dreams, communities, etc. It's a way of distancing (through words) oneself from the reality that even the most hated among us is still a human being. This is the same distancing one does when one engages the fantasy element of a video game. And video games are great, fun, I love them too-- but that technology sometimes creates a disconnect in human interaction. Perhaps it amalgamates with all your fears and insecurities, blurring the logic between what is real and projected fantasy/imagination, and starts to rearrange our reality to absurdity.

 

[Gatsby007]

Hey Sacco, I respect your views. I believe this is where you and i MAY(?) differ. I believe these terrorist groups (i.e. al-quaeda, Hama, UBL, Zarquawi, the Chechian Rebels from the School in Beslan Etc.) are not in fact humans. These are animals, monsters even that are hell bent on killing innocent civilians not just in the US. The school in Beslan where children where held hostage and were shot while trying to escape is just one example. I do believe these people should be eliminated (crushed). I am not talking about the innocent citizens of Iraq, or any civilains anywhere. I would like to ask one more question of you, if you don't mind.
Are there any Terrorist/freedom fighting groups that you think should be left alone and just given a free pass to continue the brutal killings of innocent people everywhere.
Very Interested:

 

[thejerk]

Sacco, you have proven a point I made earlier, liberals have a mental desease. You wrote something about the U.N. that is absurd. Most of the countries in the U.N. are turd world dictatorships. They are small dictatorships. So each little dictator would get the same World Vote as we. Saddam, without the backing of his 25 million people, would have had an equal vote with our 350 million people. You would give each little dictator equal power with every freely elected country.

What do you mean the inspections worked. You know the weapons cache that just became famous was there in 1995 and the U.N. didn't feel like the weapons there needed to be eliminated.

In all actuality, I don't know where to begin. First off, we all know we are talking about terrorists. I see that you are trying to equate Islamo fascism with freedom. Where did you learn your moral relativism? Never mind, as Shaver would say, "Don't you talk about our schools Willis."

Even though your soul feels empty, don't try to fill the void with the U.N., the U.N. is not a god. Blind faith in the U.N. is insane. Did you vote for anyone on the general assembly?

We could put an electoral collage kind of vote in there where representation equals population, but that's too close to the system that saved us from mob rule in our election, for you, I'm sure. And besides, who wants Russia to have more power than us? Forget that last question, I think I know the answer to that one. You gave the answer in you last post.

Is your Utopia one in which there is no longer anything worth fighting for? Should consensus take the place of right and wrong? Can you be too radical in your defense of liberty?

I saw an interview with another natural Kerry voter. She said, "I'm voting for Kerry, because I'm sick of living pay check to pay ckeck."

 

[perfmode]

 

[thejerk]

Max, I like that article. Some of his examples of observable evolution sound more like adaptation to me. The insecticide example doesn't mean that the dna has changed. I don't know if I believe in evolution though, I don't think it is impossible or even highly unlikely.

In the context of my extra-terrestrial idea evolution still doesn't make sense to me. Did life begin with one life form and evolve from it? Did life spontaneously begin from many different life forms and evolve from there? Did it spontaneously begin at different times and places on earth and evolve from there? My biggest problem with evolution is that life had to begin. Life didn't exist from the beginning. Or did it?

If life began on earth in more than one place, one time, or one form, then the odds of it not being everywhere are almost non-existant. In my opinion.

Thanks for that site(sarcasm), now I will be stuck on that stuff for some time. I'm just glad it wasn't quantum mechanics. I would be stuck there forever. I still believe that if one in a billion planets had life, we would still here it coming from all directions. Even planets younger than ours could have had more advanced and powerful com systems. We have only been doing it for 1 hundred years, if that. I just can't see how life can exist, and not exist everywhere in the context of evolution. Keep them sites and ideas coming though.

 

[Coda]

The quotes from an interview with an Iraqi nuclear scientist is suddenly propeganda? Sacco, you make me laugh...lol. You make it sound like the US is suddenly in the wrong because it is the only country to use a nuclear weapon. Do you know that using the nuclear bombs of WWII actuall saved thousands and thousands of American lives? It created a quick end to the world's bloodiest conflict that would have gone on and on and on with many more lives lost than what was lost from the bombs. The Japanese were hell bent on destroying us. And if you did use my logic then you would see that we in fact do need to go after terrorists. My logic doesn't lead to nuclear war it leads to a safer world. When has America been a threat or when will it be a threat to the world like Saddam had the potential of being? I don't see the US invading other countries for their oil, I don't see the US marching people into gas chambers, or rape rooms, or burying people alive in mass graves. I agree that we shouldn't be involved in other's business, but since we are we can't back out when a bunch of religious radicals (yes, religion does play a very important part in their choice to resort to terrorism) tells us to. If we did back out now, we would actually breed more terrorism because every person that would want anything from us would have to get a plane and throw it into a building and poof! the American people would suddenly bow down to the person's wishes. Also sacco, we cannot rely on the UN, specifically to protect this world...just take a look at what the Europeans did when Hitler ruled. They just kept giving and giving until it was to late. Also, the Iraqi people were not able to revolt against Saddam, he was too powerful with too many ways of putting down revolts. Think of people suddenly missing in the middle of the night, kidnapped by the Republican guard. Sacco, how can you say that we can't go out and squash these terrorists? You say they have families, hopes and communites. These terrorists certainly have lives and communities with other radical islamic extremists and they certianly have dreams to kill you and me and other Americans. Perf, Bush isn't do this for any personal reason except wanting to live in a safer country. You could say he is out for oil, wrong. Oil would only make his oil in texas less valuable, plus when was the last time we shipped oil out of Iraq when we went in there with troops? Never. Thanks Jerk and Gatsby it makes me feel better there are at least a few other people out there that still think straight.
We need to squash those terrorists like the bugs/animals they are!!

 

[Sacco]

Jerk-off--

"""I saw an interview with another natural Kerry voter. She said, "I'm voting for Kerry, because I'm sick of living pay check to pay ckeck."""""

Actually I did vote early for Kerry, but only because Nader fu**ed with me by running with two vice presidents under different parties on the same ticket. That was stupid, his percentages won’t be counted properly that way. So I went in wanting to vote Nader; he pissed me off; I contemplated voting green or socialist party, but they didn’t campaign or show any effort; so I voted for Kerry by default.

You imply an insult to the working class, to jab at me I assume, and I could respect that if you didn't come on like such an a$$hole blue-blood.

""""We could put an electoral collage kind of vote in there where representation equals population,…"""""

Not a bad idea, but it wouldn’t quite work. As I stated, but you were too co**fu**ed at that moment to understand, that was only ONE example, the U.N. one example, and I said vote by General Assembly on a general level, never implying I had all the answers to making it work. A layman’s perspective c*mfrock.

Don’t forget I believe in the International Criminal Court too, a good laugh for a lonely little right **** hand-puppet like you looking for a hand-job lefty by yourself.

"""""What do you mean the inspections worked. You know the weapons cache that just became famous was there in 1995 and the U.N. didn't feel like the weapons there needed to be eliminated.""""

They didn't, f**kwad. The issue is weapons of mass destruction, not minor explosives of bad rhetoric for mass distraction.

Here's a link for you, try to actually read it, not gloss it poorly like you do everything else--

http://www.truthout.org/docs_04/103104V.shtml

Overall, I'm worried about you-- stop tickling your own a$$hole in the pool, and take a class or two on interpretation and reading skills. :twisted:

 

[mlee2]

I see a lot of people comparing Hitler to Bush and I personally find that as the ultimate insult and horribly disgusting.

Hitler was a pretty smart guy, you know. ;-)

 

[Max G.]

"My logic doesn't lead to nuclear war it leads to a safer world."

Your logic leads to a world in which we invade whoever we feel threatens us.

This will lead to all nations trying to get WMDs ASAP, so that they can threaten to use them if we invade.

Or, the other option, of course, is to be so economically valuable to us that we can't touch them. The current example of this is Saudi Arabia - their government is as corrupt and cruel as Saddam was, they had known links to al Qaeda, but they sell us large quantities of oil so we can't invade them.

 

[mlee2]

Coda,

The UN was built for the exact reasons of preventing war, and it was originally an AMERICAN IDEA.

This talk about denigrating the UN is pretty silly. America still has the biggest influence there and carries a veto power in the Security Council: the only council that really matters in the UN. Our country has the financial clout to buy votes from other countries. I can say that last sentence with full certainty as I've worked as an intern with many UN operations.

How people can think Bush attacking Iraq for our safety is beyond me. There are PLENTY of other countries on the sh*t list that are bigger threats to us than Iraq. I mean, chrissakes, we should be attacking the Saudis before we attack Iraq. THAT'S WHERE THE MAJORITY OF AL-QAEDA IS FUNDED AND LOCATED!

America is the best country in the world. Our free-market ideas are the best aspect of this country and why we're still No. 1. I'm not your liberal 'America-hater' as jerk might label me and our country isn't close to **** facism, but there certainly are traces of it here and it's growing. If you can't see it, I envy your ignorance.

There will always be terrorist attacks (and people who hate America)no matter who wins this race but I will not see Bush ruin our good name and (as an issue for fighting terrorism) give terrorists a HUGE recruiting tool and an even bigger reason for Arabs to give up their lives to destroy America. You might not care that 75% of Europe hates us but again: that 75% are seen as possible recruits to terrorist camps.

 

[mlee2]

Sorry, Max, didn't mean to repeat that Saudi comment.

 

[perfmode]

 

[Sacco]

Coda,

I would hope that this is just bravado or fantasy for you-- example: I like to swear, you like pretending to be a sociopath. That was wrong of me to say, I'm not here to judge.

I do have one question though, for you and all those like-minded individuals like yourself, the respectable :wink: ones that believe other human beings you don't like are insects/animals, whatever-- why aren't you enlisted and over in Iraq right now?

You are true believers, right? There seems only one logical course of action if you are. Right now, U.S. troops are depleted (inside and out), many have been there way too long, want to go home, and some only joined up for the college money or to help out their struggling families in this horrible economy.

I'm not here to judge, only listen. I know it's possible they didn't want you or you feel you're too old or young, but it's time to let it all out. Why not just join? You ALL are true believers, I am not and many of the current troops are not; don't you think it should be the ones who want crushing and killing the most, and believe, that should go out and show us non-believers the error of our ways?

I was raised as an officers son, an army-brat of sorts, but it still never quite worked for me, if I had been drafted I would of been a conscientious objector and gone to prison. See I confessed, it's easy. So, Coda (and the rest), why haven't you joined up yet????? Very curious.

 

[Coda]

actually sacco, you can stop being so ignorant and stop assuming things before you know the truth of the matter. I am a HS senior and am applying to the Air Force Academy and to the Naval Academy. I hope to become a fighter pilot and drop bombs on those animals. By the way, I don't call people I don't like animals, I call people animals when they are a part of an organization to kill innocent American citizens. I think it's sad that you don't think we need to go after these criminals.

 

[Max G.]

Max, I like that article. Some of his examples of observable evolution sound more like adaptation to me. The insecticide example doesn't mean that the dna has changed. I don't know if I believe in evolution though, I don't think it is impossible or even highly unlikely.

In the context of my extra-terrestrial idea evolution still doesn't make sense to me. Did life begin with one life form and evolve from it? Did life spontaneously begin from many different life forms and evolve from there? Did it spontaneously begin at different times and places on earth and evolve from there? My biggest problem with evolution is that life had to begin. Life didn't exist from the beginning. Or did it?

If life began on earth in more than one place, one time, or one form, then the odds of it not being everywhere are almost non-existant. In my opinion.

Thanks for that site(sarcasm), now I will be stuck on that stuff for some time. I'm just glad it wasn't quantum mechanics. I would be stuck there forever. I still believe that if one in a billion planets had life, we would still here it coming from all directions. Even planets younger than ours could have had more advanced and powerful com systems. We have only been doing it for 1 hundred years, if that. I just can't see how life can exist, and not exist everywhere in the context of evolution. Keep them sites and ideas coming though.

Well, I think you're misinterpreting what evolution says.

Evolution does not deal with how life appeared. At the moment, though there are hypotheses of abiogenesis, there's no general concensus among the scientific world, though there are some competing hypotheses.

How life appeared really doesn't affect the theory of evolution. We can trace fossils back to fairly primitive cells before the fossil record basically vanishes; the simplest cells didn't leave fossils, they couldn't fossilize.

We know that life appeared, somehow. The fact that we exist, the fact that fossils exist, prove that. We don't know how exactly it first appeared, what conditions were necessary. It might have happened only once, and then evolved from there; or it might have appeared in several places at once, which is possible since the conditions across the world were uniformly favorable.

I don't see how that affects whether the theory of evolution is true or not.

Evolution describes how populations change over time. It deals with what happened after the first self-replicating cell (or molecule) existed.

http://atheism.about.com/library/glossary/evolution/bldef_abiogenesis.htm

Evolution does not say that life would appear millions of times on different planets.

[BTW, we currently don't even know whether other planets capable of supporting life even exist...]

Heck, even if life did appear on another planet, there is no reason to think that it would evolve and become intelligent. Life evolved for millions and millions of years before it got lucky and intelligence appeared - and technological progress took off from there. But we don't know what the probability of this happening again is. Heck, we probably wouldn't be here if that meteor that wiped out the dinosaurs hadn't hit the earth...

...actually, I don't know how to specifically disprove your argument - all of the literature that I'm finding deals with disproving the claim that biogenesis is so improbable it couldn't possibly happen, rather than saying that it'll happen everywhere if it were true.

But either way, you're mixing together evolution and abiogenesis and treating them as one theory, though evolution does not depend on how or why the first life-form appeared.

 

[Coda]

max, it does seem that evolution is real. We just need to look at the Galapagos Islands for present day evidence. What are your thoughts on how life started? I think this is where the main argument lies.

 

[Max G.]

max, it does seem that evolution is real. We just need to look at the Galapagos Islands for present day evidence. What are your thoughts on how life started? I think this is where the main argument lies.

Yes, that's where the main argument lies. That evolution happens is, among scientists, an accepted fact, and it's unfortunate that some people don't believe it because they lack the evidence.

I don't know how life started, and my opinion on the matter doesn't really matter...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_of_life - that seems like a good description of the various theories.

 

[Sacco]

Good move, Coda. I don't respect the act itself, but I do respect a person that stands up for his/her convictions. Hope to hear from you next year, don't go the college and training route (you can do that later, if there is a later), you might miss the whole conflict in Iraq, and you're so passionate-- get out there on the front-line boy.

One down. Any more takers? Joining the U.S. armed forces is the first step. :twisted:

I will be a poll monitor with Working Assets the next few days, so I won't have time to respond to further questions. There's an election on ladies and gentlebeings!!!

Coda might agree to field your questions on joining/recruiting until I am able to again. Ask him; he won't bite. :wink:

 

[Coda]

I might miss the Iraq conflict, but I will be the first one to drop a few bombs in N. Korea in a few years!

 

[thejerk]

I see somebody wants to imply that the Bush administration is ****. Well once again, where are your examples? I do agree with the statement about nazism/fascism/socialism creeping into our sysem. I on the other hand will give examples:
1) It is funny that Sacco the sheep votes for the party that has been systematically suing to get opposition parties off the ballot.
2) Democrats attempted to sue tv stations to stop the swift boat vets. Let me remind you, the leader of the swift boat vets was the captain of the same boat as Kerry. They were also the officers that served with him. The dems in effect were trying to stop unfavorable speach. And they sought to use the power of the state to do so.
3) The nazis were socialists. In case Sacco doesn't know, the socialists already have a candidate in this race. They aren't really trying to campaign. I have actually heard them endorsing Kerry.
4) They have actually introduced fraudulent documents. For example, Dan Blathers report which was given to him by a democrat opperative. CBS, and NY Times tried to pull off a fake story generated by international socialist and lefties in the CIA.
Where are your brave journalists in trying to seek the truth in these instances? Wasn't Sammy Burglar caught snaking documents. Isn't that another **** like tactic? Isn't he the second or third Clinton guy who was caught doing this? How about File Gate in which Clinton opposition members FBI files were found in Clinton office. What ever happened in that case? Where was the reporting? What party owns the media?
5) A prominant democrat tried to use legislation to get Limbaugh thrown off of armed forces radio. This is real censorship. It is government sponsored censorship. Limbaugh was chosen to be on there by the troops. The troops had to write him in because he wasn't among the choices. He actuallyi finished 5th. That was without his name even being on the choices.
6) Which party champions partial birth abortion. We are talking about viable babies. There is no life of the mother exception here because the child is born. The child would be alive if you guys hadn't marginalized them calling them sub-human. This to me is proof that nazism is alive and well in liberalism.
7) Which side loves the U.N.? If you look at votes in the U.N. you will find that they have consistantly voted against Israel. No matter what happens or what the vote, the U.N. finds the jews at fault and will vote accordingly. If anyone can find and exception to this, I will send you nice tennis racket.
8) Advocating creating human embryos for the sole exception of experimentation. Doesn't Mengela come to mind?
Who cares what you guys believe the intent of the U.N. was? Did you ever hear, "keep your friends close, but keep you enemies closer."? That was the intent of the U.N. The saving us from war was for naive sheep. Remember the League of Nations, it had the same charter. The League of Nations proved that without the real threat of violence, intent means squat.
Only Utopian dreamers can look at socialism and see success. You only see success because you completely deny all failures. Aethism in this century alone has killed more people than all the religions put together. Atheism is a religion. It places man at the penacle. I mention atheism and socialism in the same breath because they are one when speaking of the modern socialist movement. Let me name you a few atheists of note: Stalin, Mao, Hitler, Lenin, Pol Pot, Saddam Hussein etc... Remember this, the Bathist party of Saddam was socialist.

 

[Gaines Hillix]

To play devil's advocate:

Bush appeals to many traditionalists who want to keep unnecessary laws out of the economy and keep strong 'moral' traditions alive.

Privatizing social security is probably the best way to save it. Whether it is smart to do it now or later is the question. Baby boomers (most of them) are ignorant on the basics of investing wisely. Therefore, we could see a lot of poverty when they turn old enough for social security if privatization were to happen. The current generation of high school kids are finally being taught in school on the importance of investing (at least in my area). So maybe when it's their turn to pay taxes, that would be the better time to privatize s.s.

Let's face it, the only way to save S.S is to raise taxes or privatize. Nobody's going to choose or vote for the first one.

Bush should be kissing Alan Greenspan's butt. His policies (not Bush's) have saved our economy from recession. However, I highly doubt Bush's (in)actions are the culprits to our economy. There would've been job losses for any President (including Clinton) in this time. It's a pretty big exaggeration to say Bush (and Bush alone) is the culprit for our bad economy.

One of the plusses of the last four years (and I mean that sincerely) is that Bush has indeed made the tax code, in general, more fair. Corporations were double-taxed in many of their operations. One of the more notable ones was the dividend tax. A dividend is a certain percentage of a comapny's profits. Overhead profits are already taxed so it is certainly unfair to tax them again. This is what hurts the smaller public companies the most from being attractive.

I don't agree with providing tax credits to mulitnational companies who operate offshores (outsourcing). The Republican rationale is that these companies already pay taxes in the host country; but that's not the case most of the time as some 3rd world countries don't have the resources to collect fairly on them.

To end this nonsensical rant, I'm still voting for Kerry as there is no mistake Bush's actions in Iraq were a huge and inexcusable mistake but I can't say 100% surely that the economy is his fault. Our economy is picking up as we speak.

There is a lot of b.s and huge exaggerations coming from both sides of the political spectrum. I'll lean towards liberal guys most of the time but I'll gladly vote for someone like John McCain over Kerry by a long shot.

Couldn't agree more. And, Bush Sr. missed our "best" opportunity to take Sadam and Co. out in the first gulf war after he'd attacked Kuwait so Bush Jr. is trying to make up for it. There was no question we'd win the battle of Iraq, but Bush Jr. couldn't see beyond the end of his nose and had no plan to win the war and still doesn't appear to. I agree, the sides are totally polarized. The "moral majority" has taken over the Republican party and you're out if you're not an evangelical. I don't blame Bush for the economy. Afterall, it's influenced by so many factors outside the U.S. But, taking a hands off position on off-shoring is inexcusable. If we aren't careful, any job that doesn't require you to touch the product or customer will be done outside the U.S.

 

[Coda]

max- I think I was on that website for three hours. I went from evolution and three hours later I was on dark matter and wormholes and read everything in between!

 

[Sacco]

It is funny that Sacco the sheep votes for the party that has been systematically suing to get opposition parties off the ballot.

I worked my a55 off for 3 days, taking time off of work (but of course you wouldn't know what work is) for a non-paid, non-partisan (501c3) effort in a state I don't live in, Ohio from New York, to insure to protection of the election for Republicans, Democrats, and all parties.

If you bothered to read a post I wrote in this thread, you would have seen I was not keen on Kerry, and am not a Democrat. But you are lazy little f**k who never leaves the computer, just assumes multiple idenities and posts, posts, etc. A sad life really.

Since you obviously don't vote, my following words will be a waste on you, but might be of passing interest to someone else.

I worked in Youngstown Ohio-- my polling place was the Youngstown Youth Academy. The people and their desire to vote and participate was the only thing that went right. Three electronic voting machines, one that broke down many times, created a over 3 hour wait at times. And average of 25 votes cast per hour, if one was not purged from rolls altogether and told to go away (not having the provisional ballots at ALL until two hours into the election) The polls didn't shut down until 11pm, closing time was 7:30.

The following was reported by at least 15 people exiting from voting at different times. The machines defaulted to Bush if no vote was cast for President and often changed the vote for President to Bush also, and the technology made one back page all the way to the beginning to change it. Technology at time slowest and most corrupt. Add to that Ohio law that only allows a voter at the polls for "5 minutes" if there is a line (from 6 AM on here), even if the voting went smoothly, it averaged 10 minutes.

Many were purged from the rolls who lived and voted here their whole life, having to vote "provisionally" after standing in line to vote form 1-31/2 hours. Now only to have those votes NOT counted even for show, if you believe that, by A$$wipe loser Kerry and "committed to count every vote" liar working-class hero (in the John Lennon sense) Edwards!!!!

In past elections at this same polling place... 4-6 vote machines were present, in this election only 3 (2 working the whole time, the 1 broke completely before the night was out), even though EVERYONE knew from NEW registered voters alone, that this was going to be the largest turn-out ever. Explain how in any sense that was fair and honest?

Take all that and add to it (no paper trail or accountability in the law or system), we don't know what ACTUALLY recorded in the machine. Moreover, the number of actual votes cast seemed about half the people who went in.

There was so much more to. So horrible. I refuse to bless this unjust Republic for these unjust actions. And so many think it's reasonable to just NOT count the votes, that what the media saying is reasonable. Stand in line 31/2 hours to not even be counted. IF you think that is right in any circumstance, you are a fascist; (forget democracy) join the supreme court.

 

[thejerk]

Why would it take someone 10 minutes to vote? If it was anything like the place I went, Move On was standing right there handing out sample ballots. Of course I sat there and watched them for about 2 hours and saw illegal actions take place no less than 20 times. More like 50 times but some were questionable. You should have seen them, every time a black person drove up, they actually ran to them to hand them sample ballots and little cards. The little cards they only handed to black people who had gone to the wrong precinct. They would proclaim, "If you felt intimidated call this number."
As I watched, they made no attempt to approach any white male much less hand them a sample ballot. Racists, they think you have to be white to know what the issues are. Besides, if you are going to vote, you should know what is on the ballot. I would submit that voting an uninformed vote is no virtue.

I am not sure what you mean by provisional. If it is one where you are registered and they have lost you in the system, then, you should be given a ballot. It's legality can then be confirmed. If it is a ballot they give you because you are not registered, then good, if you aren't registered in time you shouldn't vote. Who needs people so irresponsible voting on the future?

Why are you complaining about no paper trails? You are probably one of the same people that complained people are too stupid to be expected to tear off each chad. One place we agree is on the paper trail. Why did they need you to cross state lines to help in Ohio. Are people in red states to stupid to watch their own balloting place?

By the way, I don't post under other names or anything of that sort. I won't lie just to be you friend, just another trait of the right.

 

[kevhen]

Voted for neither. Voted Libertarian. The death of this nation will not be by terrorists but will be brought on by our growing deficits that the Republicans make worse with tax cuts and the Democrats make worse with new spending bills.

 

[PugArePeopleToo]

The following was reported by at least 15 people exiting from voting at different times. The machines defaulted to Bush if no vote was cast for President and often changed the vote for President to Bush also, and the technology made one back page all the way to the beginning to change it. Technology at time slowest and most corrupt. Add to that Ohio law that only allows a voter at the polls for "5 minutes" if there is a line (from 6 AM on here), even if the voting went smoothly, it averaged 10 minutes.

Many were purged from the rolls who lived and voted here their whole life, having to vote "provisionally" after standing in line to vote form 1-31/2 hours. Now only to have those votes NOT counted even for show, if you believe that, by A$$wipe loser Kerry and "committed to count every vote" liar working-class hero (in the John Lennon sense) Edwards!!!!

In past elections at this same polling place... 4-6 vote machines were present, in this election only 3 (2 working the whole time, the 1 broke completely before the night was out), even though EVERYONE knew from NEW registered voters alone, that this was going to be the largest turn-out ever. Explain how in any sense that was fair and honest?

Take all that and add to it (no paper trail or accountability in the law or system), we don't know what ACTUALLY recorded in the machine. Moreover, the number of actual votes cast seemed about half the people who went in.

There was so much more to. So horrible. I refuse to bless this unjust Republic for these unjust actions. And so many think it's reasonable to just NOT count the votes, that what the media saying is reasonable. Stand in line 31/2 hours to not even be counted. IF you think that is right in any circumstance, you are a fascist; (forget democracy) join the supreme court.

Are you saying it was rigged? It's interesting you think Coda should follow his conviction and joint the army right now. Shouldn't you follow your conviction and leave the country right now?

 

[perfmode]

Voted for neither. Voted Libertarian. The death of this nation will not be by terrorists but will be brought on by our growing deficits that the Republicans make worse with tax cuts and the Democrats make worse with new spending bills.

Here. Print this out and wear it to work tomorrow.

 

[Sacco]

jerk,

Move On is a partisan group, not the same as what we were doing. We passed out a voting bill of rights to everyone who wanted to take one.

Provisional ballots came out of the HAVA act. Every state implemented this differently. In Ohio, if one is not on the rolls but from the county, in the wrong precinct (not able to get to the other), challenged for any reason, or the signature is subjectively deemed to not match the voter still has a right to vote on a provisional ballot. This will be checked late for validity, and processed accordingly. But I doubt that will be done now, no need to waste that effort counting every vote when no one is fighting for it.

Ten minutes. Complaints ranged from: the font was small and strange, the lighting was bad, no privacy, the machine didn't aline properly, it was slow, and if a mistake was made one scroll back each page to the problem to change and then scroll foward through each page to get back to the end. Since all the machines and voting is NOT universally the same, applying your experience to it would be an unsound comparison.

The people are smart, the machines and laws are stupid. I have family in the area (so a place to stay), and New York didn't have any calls out for help, Ohio did. And if one looks at the anomalies in voting in that state, and Ohio's stupid laws, one can see why they needed help.

 

[Sacco]

pug,

Are you saying it was rigged? It's interesting you think Coda should follow his conviction and joint the army right now. Shouldn't you follow your conviction and leave the country right now?

Coda did follow his convictions; he's already signed up according to him. Don't you believe him? I do.

Why should I leave because you say so? Because I don't like to mix church and state? Because I am exercising MY CITIZENSHIP by questioning the government (remember the Bill of Rights)?

How can one change the system if one doesn't participate in it, criticize it at times, and speak out?

Are you even a citizen of the United States, pug? If you're not I could understand why you might be scared, but you shouldn't be.
Every government has mass corruption and problems, but not talking about them, taking no action, or trying to silence word and/or actions of another is an escape for cowards and weaklings.

 

[NoBadMojo]

it is reported that the US voting system is one of the most dysfunctional ones in the world <which includes evolving countries>. it's inconsistent, not reliable, and lends itself to cheating. the process worked better with a piece of paper and something to blacken out boxes like in the good ole days. this is one case where newer is not better. it really isnt difficult.....go to a polling place....blacken out boxes and turn in the form and hopefully the form will be handled in a fair manner with a doubly redundent system.