pro fh - pivot-back, sidearm, forearm motion

[Ross K]

I've slightly touched on this topic in a recent post (and I've seen others refer to it in other posts also), but I'd really like to focus on this one thing, it's an issue I've long been curious about and have never seen properly addressed, namely that of the away-from-body, side-arm, pivot back forearm motion that pro's often use just before contact on the fh.

It's clearly seen in slomo video footage that on some occasions (when taken out wide?) pro's do this manouvre when, coming from behind the body plane (I think?), this sort of side-arm pitching motion is used to speed up forwards into contact (there's a kind of catching up, lassooing effect here, if you know what I mean?) Anyway, it's characteristic look is, away from the body, the racket gets jerked backwards in this side-armer manner, and then with the racket-head looking very parallel to ground or closed, its side-armed and slung forward and into the ball. It's quite unmistakable in appearance. Looks nothing like what regular 'modern fh' teaching is known for (rotational pull into ball, etc.) And yet any trawl through youtube tennis vids reveals endless film of A Rodd, Fed and all of them performing this motion?

What exactly is this? What are the precise mechanics involved?

 

[Bagumbawalla]

If you could post a representative video of this, then we would all be seeing and discussiing the same thing.

 

[Noveson]

Yeah I am having a hard time picturing what you are talking about. A video would really help, and would avoid arguing over different things

 

[Trinity TC]

Ross K, I think I know what you mean. That's why I'm reluctant to focus on the "point the butt cap forward" technique (unless necessary) which tends to cause SOME students to bypass the sidearm slingshot move that you have observed.

What is it? It's a natural way to fluidly convert the backswing/windup into an efficient forward swing.

 

[Ross K]

Quite how the H I post a vid of this I'm not sure. Is there a simple way of describing this procedure?

Btw, although I can't be positive we're talking the same thing here, Trinity, the term 'sidearm slingshot' sounds very appropriate. Care to expand a little? And even if it's different, I'd still be interested to know about this.

 

[Ross K]

Bagumbawalla and Noveson...

ANDY RODDICK FOREHAND SLOW MOTION
www.youtube.com/watch?v=5avBret

FEDS FOREHAND
www.youtube.com/watch?v=c1bKZLwTpV4

Right. Have just spent a while looking over vids. The above aren't fantastic representations of what I mean, however, they were the best I could find just now, and I believe they do enough to illustrate what I'm getting at.

With Fed please note how on the first (and best) shot, quite plainly, the racket seems to be sidearmed low into the ball. And on the Roddick footage, the first one again shows a lateral, sidearmed cut into the ball; and even on the second (incredible) shot, although this clip conforms far more to what I'd call a conventional 'modern fh', even then, with that double-bend of his, at the end, he still seems to be coming at the ball much more laterally, his forearm performing a sideways 'sling' into the ball.

Again then, I ask: what exactly is this motion? Why do pro's sometimes do this? What are the mechanics in terms of emulating it?... or, even though I windscreen wipe after that forward rotation into the line of the ball, have I just been making contact in a too linear fashion all this time? (Got to say though, I've NEVER read about or been told anything regarding any sidearm slinging motion coming from behind and away from your body - and, I would add, often with the racket seeming to be pretty flat, or parallel to ground.)

Somebody?

 

[Ross K]

2 more bits of info...

1. Have found through search of old TT posts very interesting stuff about 'sling-shot forehand' (just type this in and you should come to the post, which is about Feds fh, although you have to be patient, there's a fair amount of arguing and posturing to get through.) It does however seem to link to my OP. I would also like to quote one of the posters, Marius Hancu (I sincerely hope it's okay to do this? I do so because I believe he is a respected TT member, and also because it so connects to what I'm talking about...)

"ONE PEICE OF ADVICE: HIT FURTHER AWAY FROM YOUR BODY, WITH A MORE EXTENDED ARM (AT THE ELBOW.) MORE LEVERAGE"...

Are we finally now getting somewhere!?...

2. Please see 'The laid-back forehand' (bottom of page) - On The Line Coaching Tips - www.tennisontheline.org

I've given this info out before on another, linked post. Again, I believe this is connected to my OP.

 

[tricky]

Yeah, I kinda see wacky sidearm motion you see from the pros is them trying to increase the forearm-wrist stretch-shorten cycle into the kinetic chain. By doing that, you also increase the potential energy from the elbow bend because now the reverse motion of the elbow jerks the wrist farther back, which in turn increases the stretch (and therefore potential energy) on the elbow.

So largely it's about starting forearm and wrist rotation angle, grip, and then order of motion, making sure the shoulder initiates the elbow, and the elbow intitiates the hand to go into wrist-back/butt-to-racket position. Done right, you should feel a huge whip motion.

About the forearm/wrist rotation angle and grip, if say you set up your racket prematurely (for exampel, say reverse the racket with a conservative grip) to have the butt point to the net immediately oriented toward the net, then you get much less of this forearm-wrist action. And in turn, you may be more inclined to get less elbow "spring" action, which in turn causes you more to muscle the swing around the elbow pivot. However, if say you were to close your racket face with that conservative grip, then the kinectic chain more closely follows the shoulder-elbow-wrist "whip action" order.

It's kinda hard to explain, but I guess this goes back into the kinematics of the millenium forehand, so to speak. In any case, Federer's FH most closely follows this model.

 

[Trinity TC]

I have been teaching the "double bend" forehand swing with a slight backswing loop on the horizontal and vertical plane. On the racquet take-back and forward swing up to the point of acceleration (just before ball contact), the wrist tracks on an outside-inside-outside path on the horizotal plane while doing and up-down-up loop on the vertical plane.

The human body is a multi-levered machine so the hand has to track in more curved path in order to conserve angular momentum which will allow smooth optimal racquet acceleration. Most good forehands I have seen are done this way.

It sounds complicated but I think it's more natural and easier to execute in tennis situations than the linear, single plane swing. You have to fight your body to execute the linear swing as you are pulling and pushing against the forces of angular momentum.

How's that Ross? I don't make it that complicated when I'm teaching.

 

[counterfeit25]

Bagumbawalla and Noveson...

ANDY RODDICK FOREHAND SLOW MOTION
www.youtube.com/watch?v=5avBret

FEDS FOREHAND
www.youtube.com/watch?v=c1bKZLwTpV4

Right. Have just spent a while looking over vids. The above aren't fantastic representations of what I mean, however, they were the best I could find just now, and I believe they do enough to illustrate what I'm getting at.

With Fed please note how on the first (and best) shot, quite plainly, the racket seems to be sidearmed low into the ball. And on the Roddick footage, the first one again shows a lateral, sidearmed cut into the ball; and even on the second (incredible) shot, although this clip conforms far more to what I'd call a conventional 'modern fh', even then, with that double-bend of his, at the end, he still seems to be coming at the ball much more laterally, his forearm performing a sideways 'sling' into the ball.

Again then, I ask: what exactly is this motion? Why do pro's sometimes do this? What are the mechanics in terms of emulating it?... or, even though I windscreen wipe after that forward rotation into the line of the ball, have I just been making contact in a too linear fashion all this time? (Got to say though, I've NEVER read about or been told anything regarding any sidearm slinging motion coming from behind and away from your body - and, I would add, often with the racket seeming to be pretty flat, or parallel to ground.)

Somebody?

The Andy Roddick link doesn't work, but do you mean this forehand?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oeXRYb-B3OM (the second forehand he hits)

I always thought the "sidearm" forehand was a way to deal with low balls, especially those low slices. It's makes it much easier to hit the ball up and over the net this way. At least, that is how I use the "sidearm" thing.

 

[tricky]

I have been teaching the "double bend" forehand swing with a slight backswing loop on the horizontal and vertical plane.

This is so true. The key point with the backswing is to extend the lever with as little as active muscle tension as needed. To do that, you kinda have to track the natural motion around that joint. Taking the swing back in a loop is the most natural motion around the shoulder joint, but most of us are used to doing this from just the vertical motion.

So the idea goes that during the downward portion of the backswing, you move your elbow back into the body as the racquet lower, which you'll notice feels more natural around the shoulder joint. When doing this, it's easier to intiate forward rotation around the shoulder, letting everything else fall into place. As you feel the elbow moving forward, you orient the butt cap to ready the acceleration of the racqet around the hand.

 

[Ross K]

OMG! You mean to say ppl are actually agreeing with me here!? So I wasn't going crazy afterall imagining pro's sometimes sidarming the ball or whatever?!...

Tricky (loved your description) and Trinity (I wish you were teaching me!),

Many many thanks for your absorbing and insightful responses. I need to reread and digest your comments and properly take in this fascinating info... before trying to do my own version.

And btw, if there's anything else you want to add, I'd be very eager to hear it.

RK

 

[Ross K]

The Andy Roddick link doesn't work, but do you mean this forehand?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oeXRYb-B3OM (the second forehand he hits)

I always thought the "sidearm" forehand was a way to deal with low balls, especially those low slices. It's makes it much easier to hit the ball up and over the net this way. At least, that is how I use the "sidearm" thing.

Presuming you mean the Nadal footage I've just seen - actually, yes, that is sort of what I'm getting at.

Q.'s... Is that how you've been taught to hit fh (elbow pivoting forward and slung sidearmed and underhand like a tomahawk, flat and low, and from that away-from-the-body-angle?) Is that the usual way 'modern fh' is discussed and presented to students of the game?... I can only repeat, I certainly never got to here about it (and yet it's so prevelent?)

Btw, you could well have point re it being utilized for low balls and low slice (Tricky and Trinity would be better qualified than me to pass comment about this.)

Cheers for that.

 

[tricky]

Yeah, basically what you see today are "next generation" forehand strokes. What Federer is doing should be treated as a formal evolution of the FH stroke, because it is the next step after the double-bend technique. What he does is maximize the potential energy generated around the wrist, which is probably the last component of the kinetic chain that you can still use and maintain some accuracy.

By doing this, he further increases the racquet speed, but he also increases the hand rotational velocity by at least 25-50% And in doing so, he can create spin rates the equivalent of a swing stroke of a more Western grip. That's not to say that Fed's swing optimally uses that last stage -- most people who use double-bend use it to some degree -- it's just that nobody else uses it as much as he does.

You can look at it from a simplified version of the kinectic chain. Say you try to do McEnroe's forehand, which is to rotate around the hip, but keep both the shoulder and elbow at a fixed point. In other words, there's only one stage of the kinectic chain. When you do this, you'll notice that, even though you do a coiling, you still have to muscle a bit around the hip.

Now, try allowing your shoulder to swing around the hip. When you do this, you'll notice that your hip turns much, much quicker and more easily. That is because you've added another stage - the shoulder -- into the chain, which pulls on the hip and bnetter facilitates the hip's stretch-shorten reflex. However, you may then notice that you're muscling the shoulder.

Now, try the classic double-bend. You'll then notice how more easily and quickly the shoulder rotates. And that is because during the backswing, the timing/pivoting of the elbow pulls on the shoulder, which causes it to involutnarily shorten through the forward stroke. That is, the shoulder's stretch-shorten reflex has been added. But, now, depending on how you practice the double-bend, you'll feel some degree of muscling around the elbow pivot, particularly when you accelerate/"trigger" the hand forward once the butt faces the net.

Now, try using/mantaining a closed racket face through the backswing. When the racquet goes forward, let the face fling back and open up into the correct butt-to-net position, before pulling on the butt to accelerate the swing. What you'll notice is a very whippy, almost catapult-like motion, and also you'll notice how little muscling goes in with your elbow. The fling-back around the forearm-wrist pulls on the muscles around the elbow (i.e. biceps), establishing the stretch-shorten flex there too. One more element in the stretch-shorten cycle. In fact, it even sounds different, like punching the air. Fed's swing uses this much more actively than any other pro.

People like to discuss the upside of talent levels, but it's hard to not emphasize this: the upside of Fed's FH is effectively another level ahead of everybody else's. Meaning, there's literally things that even a Safin simply can't do with his groundstrokes. Moreover, he's not necessarily using that model as effectively as it probably should, and that there's much room for improvement within the framework of his mechanics. That leads to the aformentioned millenium forehand concept. It's possible in the future you may see somebody who can crank on the ball on the rise like Agassi, have the casual monster pace of Safin, and yet have the topspin of Brugeura.

 

[Ross K]

Yeah, basically what you see today are "next generation" forehand strokes. What Federer is doing should be treated as a formal evolution of the FH stroke, because it is the next step after the double-bend technique. What he does is maximize the potential energy generated around the wrist, which is probably the last component of the kinetic chain that you can still use and maintain some accuracy.

By doing this, he further increases the racquet speed, but he also increases the hand rotational velocity by at least 25-50% And in doing so, he can create spin rates the equivalent of a swing stroke of a more Western grip. That's not to say that Fed's swing optimally uses that last stage -- most people who use double-bend use it to some degree -- it's just that nobody else uses it as much as he does.

You can look at it from a simplified version of the kinectic chain. Say you try to do McEnroe's forehand, which is to rotate around the hip, but keep both the shoulder and elbow at a fixed point. In other words, there's only one stage of the kinectic chain. When you do this, you'll notice that, even though you do a coiling, you still have to muscle a bit around the hip.

Now, try allowing your shoulder to swing around the hip. When you do this, you'll notice that your hip turns much, much quicker and more easily. That is because you've added another stage - the shoulder -- into the chain, which pulls on the hip and bnetter facilitates the hip's stretch-shorten reflex. However, you may then notice that you're muscling the shoulder.

Now, try the classic double-bend. You'll then notice how more easily and quickly the shoulder rotates. And that is because during the backswing, the timing/pivoting of the elbow pulls on the shoulder, which causes it to involutnarily shorten through the forward stroke. That is, the shoulder's stretch-shorten reflex has been added. But, now, depending on how you practice the double-bend, you'll feel some degree of muscling around the elbow pivot, particularly when you accelerate/"trigger" the hand forward once the butt faces the net.

Now, try using/mantaining a closed racket face through the backswing. When the racquet goes forward, let the face fling back and open up into the correct butt-to-net position, before pulling on the butt to accelerate the swing. What you'll notice is a very whippy, almost catapult-like motion, and also you'll notice how little muscling goes in with your elbow. The fling-back around the forearm-wrist pulls on the muscles around the elbow (i.e. biceps), establishing the stretch-shorten flex there too. One more element in the stretch-shorten cycle. In fact, it even sounds different, like punching the air. Fed's swing uses this much more actively than any other pro.

People like to discuss the upside of talent levels, but it's hard to not emphasize this: the upside of Fed's FH is effectively another level ahead of everybody else's. Meaning, there's literally things that even a Safin simply can't do with his groundstrokes. Moreover, he's not necessarily using that model as effectively as it probably should, and that there's much room for improvement within the framework of his mechanics. That leads to the aformentioned millenium forehand concept. It's possible in the future you may see somebody who can crank on the ball on the rise like Agassi, have the casual monster pace of Safin, and yet have the topspin of Brugeura.

Awesome post, Tricky! Your response is deserving of a higher profile, I reckon. (Tennis mags, websites, that kind of outlet.) Anyway, as was the case before, I need time to take it all in, but three things have come to my mind straight off (and forgive me if you've already answered these queries before):

1. In which situations are the pro's playing this shot? When dragged out wide? When facing low ball or balls sliced low (as Counterfeit mentioned earlier)? Different occasions? Or is it more a case of simply playing it whenever they feel to (it's more random)?

2. When I wrote the OP I wasn't actually writing it with Fed being solely in my thoughts. For example, A Rodd seems to use this forearm sling motion a lot as well. In other words, my suspician was that it's a common stroke aspect amongst most of the pro's (although Fed indeed absolutely appears to be the master at it.)

3. I'm wondering how the ball contact works. Precisely where the ball is struck (just below centre? To the right and below centre? Dead centre? Or is it 'brush it over the top of the head' , as that On The Line Coaching Tip mentioned in my previous post advises.

 

[Ross K]

Btw everyone,

Obvious question really, but what is the correct name for this shot?... Sidearm slingshot?... Pivot-back forearm?... Sidearm catapult?... It would def help if it had an agreed, commonly used name.

If it isn't already properly titled, anyone got any suggestions?

 

[tricky]

2. When I wrote the OP I wasn't actually writing it with Fed being solely in my thoughts. For example, A Rodd seems to use this forearm sling motion a lot as well. In other words, my suspician was that it's a common stroke aspect amongst most of the pro's (although Fed indeed absolutely appears to be the master at it.

Yeah, I "think" Roddick has a lot of action, because he orients his racquet tip very, very forward when releasing the swing. It lets him produce a crazy amount of racquet speed (swings around the wrist joint) without that big of a backswing. That said, it's fairly natural within his SW grip structure, because most of that action transfers into supination of the forearm rather than increasing the energy of the wrist. His swing isn't as sidearm as it seems, though; because he's using a strong SW grip, a lot of the action is vertical. Truth is, so much of Roddick's game is about hotwiring some aspect of the kinetic chain a la baseball player.

It isn't so much about any "optimal" racquet face per se, but trying to create a maximal stretch-shorten cycle around the forearm/wrist. People who learn double-bend have varying levels of this, depending on how they set up their racquet face vs. grip prior to the forward swing. Federer's special, because his version is kinda extreme, and he uses it as part of his wonky hybrid stroke.

3. I'm wondering how the ball contact works. Precisely where the ball is struck (just below centre? To the right and below centre? Dead centre? Or is it 'brush it over the top of the head' , as that On The Line Coaching Tip mentioned in my previous post advises.

Yeah, it's dependent on a lot of hand rotation to facilitate the topspin. You have a certain forward swing facilitated by your particular grip. Then you use wiping motion to get more; and if you have a lot of wrist energy (i.e. "wristiness"), then moreso. Deliberately creating a low-to-high motion outside hte normality of the grip, probably requires some extra muscling of the ball that kinda takes away the easy access energy of this style.

 

[counterfeit25]

Presuming you mean the Nadal footage I've just seen - actually, yes, that is sort of what I'm getting at.

Q.'s... Is that how you've been taught to hit fh (elbow pivoting forward and slung sidearmed and underhand like a tomahawk, flat and low, and from that away-from-the-body-angle?) Is that the usual way 'modern fh' is discussed and presented to students of the game?... I can only repeat, I certainly never got to here about it (and yet it's so prevelent?)

Btw, you could well have point re it being utilized for low balls and low slice (Tricky and Trinity would be better qualified than me to pass comment about this.)

Cheers for that.

To answer your question, yes that's how I was taught to hit a forehand to deal with low balls. My coach back then, 2 years ago, initially didn't teach me this, since I was quite a beginner 2 years ago. He just had me hit some "normal" forehands. It was when I asked him specifically how to deal with low slice shots did he tell me to use this technique. Basically he said something along the lines of "get the racket around and under the ball", then he demonstrated a few shots. It took me a long time to get comfortable and confident with this technique, but it's definately worth the effort.

 

[Bagumbawalla]

Both of these shots, I find interesting, for different reasons.

I had always thoought Federer hit a faiely easten forehand. But, Notice how when he takes his racket back to the farthest point of the backswing that it is pretty much parallel to the court, just like a western style grip would produce. The same is, of course true ot the second nadal forehand.

In both cases, the ball lands deep and forces them to hit an abreviated/whippy stroke to produce the required topspin and finish the stroke. In both cases the balls are fairly low, and with western-type grips it is not the most natural of motions to pick up low, deep, balls. I suspect that these are not really the shots you were looking for. They seem to me to be quick readjustments to balls that caught them slightly too far back to execute a full normal stroke.

B

 

[superbooga]

Personally, I don't see how this technique goes against the regular "modern fh" teaching. They are still pointing the butt-cap forward. Body rotation and racquet "pull" are still emphasized.

Their arms and shoulders are extremely loose, allowing them to act as multiple levers. Additionally, they rotate and open up the shoulders very quickly.

 

[Ross K]

Bagumbawalla,
Yes, you are correct in that (as I myself said earlier) they weren't perfect representations of the 'slingshot sidearmer', but hopefully, there were similarities enough to illustrate what I mean. However, I'm guessing that this technique is highly adaptable, and has been incorporated into the pro's game in different hybrid forms. When they use it? How they use it? To what degree they use it? Etc - I'm not qualified to say - which is partly why I began this post in the first place, and have continued to ask questions regarding it. More to the point though, my central issue is that the pro's seem to be utilising this technique a lot (in whatever forms), and in the absence of any information, I wanted to find out what it was they were doing. Thanks to the likes of Trinity TC and Tricky, I think we're all a little better informed now.

Counterfeit25,
Thanks for getting back to me on that. Interesting. I'd like to hear more about this from others too.

Superbooga,
It's not so much it 'goes against modern fh', I don't think, it's possibly more of an evolusionary advance. However, that's really one for tricky and trinity and others to argue. Speaking for myself though, I heartilly agree that with this technique there are many similar (or exactly the same) components as what makes up commonly understood 'modern fh'... er, apart from the following slight exception - from stretched out and away from the body, with the racket face very closed and following a low tradjectory, they are not so much swinging at the ball but, with an underarm tomahawk throwing motion, catapulting or slinging (as in 'sling-shot') into the ball...
Super - does this correspond with the 'modern fh' as is commonly perceived?

 

[tricky]

Yeah, a lot of this is idle speculation. Realistically, for this stuff to work, you gotta be able to have perfect timing and lineup of the stroke against trajectory. Or to put it another way, millenium FH is a lot like mastering the 1H BH, albeit much harder. A perfectly grooved shot is pretty awesome to behold, but in a game situation, it'll create a lot of shanks and weakly hit shots.

The modern FH model (i.e. double-bend and the Botteleri FH style) is built around a catapult model, meaning the more levers you introduce (shoulder, elbow, hip, left arm, legs, etc.), the higher your effective leverage and force production. And, so, much attention is usually paid to both both lever and arc length, especially along the vertical and horizontal components, to determine potential spin and pace, respectively. It's similar to what Sandy Koufax said about pitching -- "do what the bones do." By initiating the forward swing through pulling the grip, it causes all the levers to start rotating forward, from first the elbow, then the shoulder, then the hip, and so on. Usually the racquet takeback has been mostly set up prior to the swing to trigger through the hand.

From a physiological perspective, most of the acceleration is produced through what's called "neural drive", or the mental act of "muscling." And what this does is generate the concentric contraction or shortening of the muscles, so that the levers can turn forward from a mostly resting state. In this case, this muscling is well-distributed through the various stages of the kinetic chain, so that you're not really arming on the ball. The role of strength training is controversial in tennis, but by and large, the Americans work on building leg and core strength, because it's well conclued that most of the concentric action is produced by the hips, legs, and abdominals.

Also, the more esoteric element goes into the role of grip or forearm strength. For example, in powerlifting circles, it's known that the traditional grip for the bench press actually is not optimal, because the tightening of the grip (paricularly the thumb) causes antagonist muscles to work. This is a safety mechanism to create a brake, so that you can control the weight, but it impedes your ability to produce maximal force in a pushing direction. Likewise, by adjusting grip pressure, you can further contract the agonist muscles which in turn increases the acceleration. Therefore, it's taught that you should have a light, but stable grip with the stroke, and that you should visualize hitting through the palm of your hand. If you don't, the excessive grip pressure will cause the same effect, thereby reducing potential concentric contractions through the arm. If you build a stronger grip in both pulling and pushing directions, then there's less impedance and you can better accelerate the forward stroke.

So the above is the current school taught to us. The "millenium forehand", or what you Ross K are talking about the pivot and the slingshot, acknowledges the above. However, it takes it one step further by going into the plyometric or ballistic model of the stroke. By looking at how the stretch-shorten cycle works in a kinectic chain, it explains how the laid-back position can but not always increase power/racquet speed. And it also suggests how the ordering of forward initiation shouldn't begin with the pull of the grip or even the hips, but the rotation of the left arm. And in fact, that rotation should commence well before the backswing is completed. The issue moves away from the bones to "do what the muscle does naturally", which also involves how to best match movement around the joints. And so on.

 

[Ross K]

The Andy Roddick link doesn't work, but do you mean this forehand?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oeXRYb-B3OM (the second forehand he hits)

And btw!

How very strange indeed - and entirely indicative of how commonly used this 'sidearm slingshot' technique is - that a vid that was only selected through either a random accident (the vid I'd stuck up was a Roddick one), or from somebody else's explorations and efforts, just so happens to show this very technique in operation. Coincidence?... good fortune?... Or are the pro's really using this technique and hybrid versions rather more often than many of us realise?

 

[tricky]

Rafa most definitely slings shots his forehand too. He bypasses the elbow stage, but he has a little wrist action (by a slight closing of the racket face), which causes the shoulder rotation reflex to trigger. It's a unconventional use of the kinetic chain, but it works nonetheless. Therefore, he doesn't really need to muscle the ball in order to rotate the shoulder around the contact plane.

 

[Bagumbawalla]

Well, I don't doubt that there are pros out there hitting the kind of shots you are describing. Most likely, it is an attempt to generate more racket speed under certain conditions. In a normal shot, there is a kind of ballance between the momentum begun in the legs and hips and the motion of the arms. However, in order to accelerate the racket head even more, there are some who whip the upper torso through the shot, pulling the shoulder and upper arm then following through in a more inside-out direction. Possibly, this is what you are refering to.

 

[Ross K]

Well, I don't doubt that there are pros out there hitting the kind of shots you are describing. Most likely, it is an attempt to generate more racket speed under certain conditions. In a normal shot, there is a kind of ballance between the momentum begun in the legs and hips and the motion of the arms. However, in order to accelerate the racket head even more, there are some who whip the upper torso through the shot, pulling the shoulder and upper arm then following through in a more inside-out direction. Possibly, this is what you are refering to.

Hello. Haven't we been here before?!... What you're describing there is the old 'caveman forehand', about which I made a post very recently, and to which you contributed. Now, obviously, as can be deduced by following my posts, I've been interested in what I was calling an 'abbreviated fh motion' for a while now. However - and I could be wrong on this - I'm not sure that your above description doesn't do a slight disservice to the pro's and this technique. Afterall, we're not talking now about rank amateur park players who drop the shoulder and muscle the s out of the ball - and seven times out of ten, hit the net; we're talking about slam winners, top top tennis players, and of course, in Federer, the guy many informed observers believe to be the greatest tennis player ever. In other words, I think there's a bit more to it (as some of the intensive and insightful responses to the OP testifies, I believe.)

 

[Bagumbawalla]

Well, I would still like to see this shot in video. If it is being used by pros (and I don't doubt you) there should be plenty of good examples.

True enough, Federer has that kind of whippy shot where he changes his grip to a western and flicks through the ball with a quick wrist action, but I think of that more as a specialty shot and not something you'd want to have as your regular stroke.

 

[superbooga]

The hardest part about the shot is the timing. You are introducing a delay between each segment and moving them all at different speeds.

I can hit a slingshot forehand, but only when the ball is in front of me and low. Against deep, heavy topspin, I don't have the speed or timing to produce this hot.

Now Federer is crazy..he hits this type of forehand all the time.

 

[ShooterMcMarco]

Relatively new ultra slo-mo clips of Federer's forehand from the AO:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=kmhvKafCYsk

This one looks more like a return, but I could be wrong:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=qI-xzEAaSs0

 

[tricky]

Relatively new ultra slo-mo clips of Federer's forehand from the AO:

Yeah, that better shows how he closes his racket face through the downstroke of the backswing.

After he sets up the backswing with his left hand and sets the racquet back, he lets his right elbow go back into the body. As the elbow is going back into the body, two things are happening. The forearm is rotating until parallel with the ground, which closes the face. The left elbow is extending out toward the net to keep the body in balance and maybe line up the shot. Just before the racquet is at the proper swing height, the left arm initiates the hip turn causing the arm to whip around. The whip causes the closed racquet face to re-open up and create energy through the forward swing.

 

[Ross K]

I can hit a slingshot forehand, but only when the ball is in front of me and low. Against deep, heavy topspin, I don't have the speed or timing to produce this hot.

Interesting point... Actually it would be good to hear other ppls experience with slingshot fh.

After he sets up the backswing with his left hand and sets the racquet back, he lets his right elbow go back into the body. As the elbow is going back into the body, two things are happening. The forearm is rotating until parallel with the ground, which closes the face. The left elbow is extending out toward the net to keep the body in balance and maybe line up the shot. Just before the racquet is at the proper swing height, the left arm initiates the hip turn causing the arm to whip around. The whip causes the closed racquet face to re-open up and create energy through the forward swing.

Easy-to-follow instruction - now this I like! Keep 'em coming tricky! And the more basic the better!

 

[johnny ballgame]

After he sets up the backswing with his left hand and sets the racquet back, he lets his right elbow go back into the body. As the elbow is going back into the body, two things are happening. The forearm is rotating until parallel with the ground, which closes the face.

About the forearm rotation towards the end of the takeback, many pros these days are actually going beyond parallel with the ground. Especially on forehands when they have time to set up, they are twisting the forearm so far that the racket face actually faces the back fence. An instructor recently pointed this out to me, and I've added it to my game. Seems to help with the whipping action somehow.

I've started to tivo pretty much every televised pro match to look for this technique in slo-mo. So far I've found that some pros do it, some don't.

Those who do 'show' the racquet face to the back fence (to some degree):
Federer, Safin, Roddick, Malisse, Ancic, Mathieu.

Those who don't rotate the forearm that far:
Blake, Berdych, Murray, Haas, Ljubicic, Youhzny, Bagdhatis.

I'll keep looking, it's an interesting discovery for me. I believe it's added both consistency and power to my forehand (I'm 4.5 - 5.0).

 

[Bagumbawalla]

The more I re-read your description, the more I begin to think you are describing a simple inside-out forehand. What follows are some copies from another thread.

The inside-out forehand comes and goes in and out of style. It's effectiveness, over the more conventional stroke, is debatable.

In a normal forehand stroke, the swingpath/followthrough is like an arc that "circles" your body. The followthrough brings the racket around to the opposite side of your body.

In an inside-out forehand the racket path through the ball is more linear. The path of the racket head follows a straight line through the ball and directly toward the point of it's intended placement.

There is really nothing inide-out about the shot except the "feel". The hitter feels he his following through away from rather than across the body.

How to hit the stroke.

Get in position and prepare as usual. The main difference is the follow-through path through the ball. In fact, when you think follow through, in this case, think of the path of your hand, more-so than the racket head.

So, imagine this: You are right handed and standing at the south end of a small (2'square??) chess table that is tilted upward at the north side. The edge of the south side is where you would strike the ball.

Now, forget the racket, completely. Just use your hand. If you followed through the more conventional way, your hand would sweep like an arc and dump a bunch of the chess pieces onto the floor off the west side of the table. If you follow through using the inside-out stroke, your hand will travel straight south-to-north, pushing a hand's width of pieces off the north side of the table.

Notice that in the conventional stroke the angle between the arm and the body closes as it sweeps across the chest. In the inside-out shot the angle opens up to a certain extent.

For most people, this is an awkward stroke. The advantage of hitting this way is debatable.

Ross, does this sound like what you are describing?

B

 

[Ross K]

The more I re-read your description, the more I begin to think you are describing a simple inside-out forehand. What follows are some copies from another thread.

The inside-out forehand comes and goes in and out of style. It's effectiveness, over the more conventional stroke, is debatable.

In a normal forehand stroke, the swingpath/followthrough is like an arc that "circles" your body. The followthrough brings the racket around to the opposite side of your body.

In an inside-out forehand the racket path through the ball is more linear. The path of the racket head follows a straight line through the ball and directly toward the point of it's intended placement.

There is really nothing inide-out about the shot except the "feel". The hitter feels he his following through away from rather than across the body.

How to hit the stroke.

Get in position and prepare as usual. The main difference is the follow-through path through the ball. In fact, when you think follow through, in this case, think of the path of your hand, more-so than the racket head.

So, imagine this: You are right handed and standing at the south end of a small (2'square??) chess table that is tilted upward at the north side. The edge of the south side is where you would strike the ball.

Now, forget the racket, completely. Just use your hand. If you followed through the more conventional way, your hand would sweep like an arc and dump a bunch of the chess pieces onto the floor off the west side of the table. If you follow through using the inside-out stroke, your hand will travel straight south-to-north, pushing a hand's width of pieces off the north side of the table.

Notice that in the conventional stroke the angle between the arm and the body closes as it sweeps across the chest. In the inside-out shot the angle opens up to a certain extent.

For most people, this is an awkward stroke. The advantage of hitting this way is debatable.

Ross, does this sound like what you are describing?

B

I've read this chess-board analogy before in the thread it was originally posted on - and, frankly, no offence here, I gave up on reading it then because I didn't really understand the analogy you were trying to make... (Furthermore, as a different recent post illustrates, people seem have surprisingly views as to what an inside out fh actually is.) Anyway, I have long detected your doubts regarding the OP (and also the similar 'caveman fh' post), with which I have no problem with at all. I am an admirer of your contributions and always pay attention to your posts. But, to clarify, I am not telling pple they must play this shot to improve their game or beseeching folks to adopt it, rather I've simply set out to discover what's happening regards pro's seeming to play a stroke - (slingshot sidearming it - I'm not sure how many diff ways I can describe it)- I didn't understand. As mentioned before, it's thanks to others on this thread that I think this has been rectified to some extent.

 

[tricky]

I guess the key thing to underline is that, by letting the wrist snap back, the elbow (by way of the stretch-shorten reflex) is allowed to "spring" into the forward swing. The shoulder rotation accelerate the hip turn; the elbow bend of the trad. double-bend accelerates the shoulder rotation; the wrist accelerates the elbow bend. Thus, not only do you have a catapult action of multiple-levers in your kinectic chain, but you also have a "complete" application of the stretch-shorten cycle through that kinetic chain. Now, if you took out the elbow bend and went straight-arm, the wrist-back would accelerate the shoulder rotation instead. Which is what I think happens with Nadal.

The interesting thing is that you can use this principle to accelerate the 1 hander BH. For example, I think Gasquet uses something like to accelerate his swing. Take whatever would be your normal contact/starting position, supinate the forearm up to 90 degrees (i.e. face goes clockwise 90 degrees.) Keep that wrist-forearm until you release the swing forward with your left hand. The wrist will fling back from the forward swing and accelerate the rotation around the shoulder.