Project 1 - Hitting Flatter Trajectory Video

[tlm]

Here is a clip of me practicing on hitting lower trajectory and more penetrating shots. I still have some built in loop but trying to bring it down some, my wife is my practice partner.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZnpGY6EG4es

 

[5263]

Here is a clip of me practicing on hitting lower trajectory and more penetrating shots. I still have some built in loop but trying to bring it down some, my wife is my practice partner.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZnpGY6EG4es

Well you certainly showed you can clock some flatter shots there. You might notice that quite a few of them landed pretty short and may see that as poor, but realize that the shot you were hitting was more designed for you to be up in the court more. As a guideline, I'd like to see both feet inside the BL for attacks like that. If you are a bit farther in, then those shots are not short anymore. No reason you can't hit some in much the same way from behind the BL for a variety of reasons, but for this exercise, it would be better if she gave you a bit more of a sitter where you could move up more for a true Mid Ct attack shot.

 

[Bundey]

You swing harder than any player I've ever seen.

 

[tlm]

Well you certainly showed you can clock some flatter shots there. You might notice that quite a few of them landed pretty short and may see that as poor, but realize that the shot you were hitting was more designed for you to be up in the court more. As a guideline, I'd like to see both feet inside the BL for attacks like that. If you are a bit farther in, then those shots are not short anymore. No reason you can't hit some in much the same way from behind the BL for a variety of reasons, but for this exercise, it would be better if she gave you a bit more of a sitter where you could move up more for a true Mid Ct attack shot.

Ya I noticed a lot were landing short, but I think because I still put a lot of spin on the ball and come over it so much that it does not travel very far. But for now I am just trying to keep them flatter and not worrying about depth, and like you said if I am closer in the court the depth would be pretty good.

 

[Bundey]

What is your opinion on the modern ATP forehand? You can swing much faster without swinging so hard.

You look pretty good though. Definitely not an easy opponent to beat, despite strokes that aren't so pretty.

 

[tlm]

You swing harder than any player I've ever seen.

I didn't think it is that hard of a swing, but I did feel a little tired after hitting a bunch of them one after another.

 

[LoboLaw1984]

You swing harder than any player I've ever seen.

I know - It's good you can get some power but I maintain you don't have to try and murder the ball with your swing every time. You can still get power without swinging so hard. That must be a huge drain of energy. When you hit - think loose, flow like water, that kind of thing.

You are definitely working at improving though, which is good.

 

[5263]

and like you said if I am closer in the court the depth would be pretty good.

THis is the big point!
You are hitting them pretty well overall, but you need to be hitting them like this from closer in. Back behind the BL is where your normal shot should thrive, but these shots are for attacking when inside the BL.

 

[tlm]

What is your opinion on the modern ATP forehand? You can swing much faster without swinging so hard.

You look pretty good though. Definitely not an easy opponent to beat, despite strokes that aren't so pretty.

I think the modern ATP forehand is great just wish I could hit one. Ya me and pretty strokes do not mix much.

 

[tlm]

THis is the big point!
You are hitting them pretty well overall, but you need to be hitting them like this from closer in. Back behind the BL is where your normal shot should thrive, but these shots are for attacking when inside the BL.

That's what I have been working on hitting my regular looping shots from the backcourt and trying to drive flatter when I get the short ball. So when practicing like today I was trying to hit flatter anytime I could even if the ball was a deeper shot than I would normally try and drive.

 

[tlm]

I know - It's good you can get some power but I maintain you don't have to try and murder the ball with your swing every time. You can still get power without swinging so hard. That must be a huge drain of energy. When you hit - think loose, flow like water, that kind of thing.

You are definitely working at improving though, which is good.

Your right I think being stronger can be a curse sometimes, it is natural for me to use my strength instead of loosening up and as you say flow like water.

 

[Bundey]

I didn't think it is that hard of a swing, but I did feel a little tired after hitting a bunch of them one after another.

Well, you look like you've perfected this stroke. If you wanted to restructure your FH it would take tons of effort and time. You would become a lot worse before you improved even marginally. I imagine that you've hit the plateau of your potential with this stroke. What level do you play at? 4.0-4.5?

 

[5263]

when practicing like today I was trying to hit flatter anytime I could even if the ball was a deeper shot than I would normally try and drive.

Well that is very good then and as long as you are clear on that, it should work fine. I just wanted to be sure, so you stay clear on your intentions. When I suggested this video, I tried to strongly suggest you get nice easy short balls to do this with so as to make it as real as possible; even if it took easy hand feeds to keep the feeds short.

 

[tlm]

Well, you look like you've perfected this stroke. If you wanted to restructure your FH it would take tons of effort and time. You would become a lot worse before you improved even marginally. I imagine that you've hit the plateau of your potential with this stroke. What level do you play at? 4.0-4.5?

I play at 4.0 level, and yes it would be a big project to restructure my forehand.

 

[tlm]

Well that is very good then and as long as you are clear on that, it should work fine. I just wanted to be sure, so you stay clear on your intentions. When I suggested this video, I tried to strongly suggest you get nice easy short balls to do this with so as to make it as real as possible; even if it took easy hand feeds to keep the feeds short.

Yes was trying to just work on hitting flatter regardless of where the ball was hit to me, my wife has this built in keep the ball deep mindset so for her she was giving me good shots to hit. But like you say if those were shorter midcourt sitters my shots would have been pretty good.

 

[BounceHitBounceHit]

Here is a clip of me practicing on hitting lower trajectory and more penetrating shots. I still have some built in loop but trying to bring it down some, my wife is my practice partner.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZnpGY6EG4es

Others may have already said, but:

1. Your left arm is dropping and swinging backwards robbing you of power and causing your left shoulder to open WAY too soon.
2. The fact of your premature 'opening' causes you to 'arm' the ball, rather than allowing the kinetic chain to unfold from the ground up, creating maximum racquet head speed (and in turn, spin, power, and control)

Your best shots are hit when you step 'up' into the court more, taking the ball a bit earlier and keeping the left shoulder 'closed' longer. Some of those shots look quite nice: tightly spun, deep, and controlled.

Good luck with your tennis!

BHBH

 

[Chas Tennis]

Here is a clip of me practicing on hitting lower trajectory and more penetrating shots. I still have some built in loop but trying to bring it down some, my wife is my practice partner.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZnpGY6EG4es

When your frames are viewed single frame, there is too much motion blur.

The video could be better for the forehand if the camera viewed from the side and the illumination was direct sunlight, roughly 100X the light level of indoor tennis courts. (In principle, the motion blur in direct sunlight could be 1/100 the motion blur indoor, you could see the racket orientation.) High speed video is necessary for analysis of the faster parts of tennis strokes.

This thread shows what you would hope to see for analysis of the top spin on the forehand. It shows how the racket approached the ball and leaves the ball.
http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=483709

Analysis of Djokovic forehand. Just past half way through are displays of racket face angles around impact with colored lines indicating the orientation.
http://blog.tennisspeed.com/2013/02/a-roadmap-to-hall-of-fame-forehand-part.html

This view from the side is closely related to the racket path that creates top spin. See Tennisspeed for discussions.

 

[JackB1]

You would be better off with your partner feeding you one ball at a time, with a basket full of balls from just outside the net. Place some targets or cones on the other side of the court in the corners about 3 feet from the corner lines.
She could start with easy feeds and then as you groove your shots, up the speed of the feeds. You need to learn how to extend through the contact zone and drive through the ball and not wrap around your body immediately. Just changing your follow through to the side of your body instead of your over your head is a good start, but you are swinging way to hard and the ball is short way too much. You should be able to drive a deep shot with a nice relaxed swing and save the extra oomph for the winners. You are expending so much energy for so little return. This is fine when your wife is lobbing the ball to you, but in a long match you won't have that long set up time available and you will be tired by the end of one set.

In short, you are putting too much spin on these shots and swinging way too hard. Learn how to hit a closed stance forehand when you start with your chest facing the right side and try not to open up too soon. The arming and open stance and robbing you of power and sapping valuable energy. You also are still falling backwards and to the left as you hit, instead of stepping forward into the shot. Watch the video and look at your balance and momentum after every shot. It's not going forward and into the court like it should.

 

[5263]

In short, you are putting too much spin on these shots and swinging way too hard. Learn how to hit a closed stance forehand when you start with your chest facing the right side and try not to open up too soon. The arming and open stance and robbing you of power and sapping valuable energy. You also are still falling backwards and to the left as you hit, instead of stepping forward into the shot. Watch the video and look at your balance and momentum after every shot. It's not going forward and into the court like it should.

So your suggestion is that he should abandon the modern tennis style he likes and revert to the old "traditional, get sideways and step forward into his shot" tennis? Really?

 

[JackB1]

So your suggestion is that he should abandon the modern tennis style he likes and revert to the old traditional, get sideways and step forward into his shot style of tennis? Really?

Not abandon anything...just learn this shot to help counter the falling backwards and to the left arming forehand he is currently hitting. You really think that's a bad idea?

You can call his current forehand "modern tennis" style, but it's really nothing like a technically correct, "modern" forehand.

 

[5263]

You can call his current forehand "modern tennis" style, but it's really nothing like a technically correct, "modern" forehand.

Not sure how you can say this. It would seem that most people equate open stance and lots of topspin as 90% of what modern tennis is and tlm does both of those things in spades. Now I don't completely agree it is that simple, but yes, he hits the modern checkpoints and you can really point mostly to things like timing, stiffness or balance as you fault his strokes. While I don't agree so much with those comments, those are skills and abilities ... not indicators of lack of modern technique. You can be stiff, off balance or have poor timing with modern or traditional, but I expect all those things to show up worse with traditional instead of improving.

 

[torpantennis]

Man, most would break their shoulders if they kept hitting like that. I though James Blake was muscling the ball, but I guess this must be the new world record of muscling! :lol:

 

[tlm]

You would be better off with your partner feeding you one ball at a time, with a basket full of balls from just outside the net. Place some targets or cones on the other side of the court in the corners about 3 feet from the corner lines.
She could start with easy feeds and then as you groove your shots, up the speed of the feeds. You need to learn how to extend through the contact zone and drive through the ball and not wrap around your body immediately. Just changing your follow through to the side of your body instead of your over your head is a good start, but you are swinging way to hard and the ball is short way too much. You should be able to drive a deep shot with a nice relaxed swing and save the extra oomph for the winners. You are expending so much energy for so little return. This is fine when your wife is lobbing the ball to you, but in a long match you won't have that long set up time available and you will be tired by the end of one set.

In short, you are putting too much spin on these shots and swinging way too hard. Learn how to hit a closed stance forehand when you start with your chest facing the right side and try not to open up too soon. The arming and open stance and robbing you of power and sapping valuable energy. You also are still falling backwards and to the left as you hit, instead of stepping forward into the shot. Watch the video and look at your balance and momentum after every shot. It's not going forward and into the court like it should.

Despite what you think my rally shots from the backcourt with all the loop and spin are very effective. My problem is putting away the short weak balls that my topspin shots create, that is what I am working on. I am not going to swing like the shots here in this video repeatedly, it will only be when I get in the court on shorter weak replys.

So these shots that you say are to short will not be short at all because I will only be using them when I am well inside the baseline. I was just practicing today hitting flatter regardless where I was located in the court, it's called grooving my swing for flatter trajectory.

But in match play it will be loopers from the back court and flatter shots once in the court with time to drive the ball, I don't make a bunch of stupid errors trying to drive every ball flat and deep that is not smart tennis.

I don't understand you saying my balance is way off after my shots. What's the difference if I go to my left some compared to going forward either way you have to recover. i have never been to tired after just one set, that is no worry for me.

I played matches last summer against some very good pushers that went 3 long sets and took just over 2 1/2 hours to complete with no problem, I won 2 out of 3 of those matches. So going the distance is no problem, that is usually to my advantage because my opponents are the ones that end up tired from hitting so many balls over their shoulders.

I went back and watched the video again and I cannot see all this off balance and falling backwards in a tough recovery position you are talking about. On the shots that I had time to step into my weight was going forward into the court. Sometimes it seems like you don't watch the same video that I post.

 

[tlm]

Man, most would break their shoulders if they kept hitting like that. I though James Blake was muscling the ball, but I guess this must be the new world record of muscling! :lol:

Well I did my chest and triceps workout today before going to the courts so maybe that saved me from breaking my shoulder. LOL

 

[Cobaine]

You're muscling the ball too much, especially on the forehand side, and all that leads to extraneous body movement which hurts your balance and kinetic chain.

For example, look how much your head moves on your forehand - you're almost looking left at the end of the swing. Your head should be still through the swing.

I think you have the right goal in mind, but you're going about it the wrong way.

 

[Bundey]

Not sure how you can say this. It would seem that most people equate open stance and lots of topspin as 90% of what modern tennis is and tlm does both of those things in spades. Now I don't completely agree it is that simple, but yes, he hits the modern checkpoints and you can really point mostly to things like timing, stiffness or balance as you fault his strokes. While I don't agree so much with those comments, those are skills and abilities ... not indicators of lack of modern technique. You can be stiff, off balance or have poor timing with modern or traditional, but I expect all those things to show up worse with traditional instead of improving.

There is nothing "modern" about topspin. That's been known about for decades. We are referring to modern technique. If you look at the "8 essential steps of a forehand" thread, he hits 0/8 of those "checkpoints."

You can be stiff, off balance or have poor timing with modern or traditional, but I expect all those things to show up worse with traditional instead of improving.

Do you see him as less stiff than McEnroe?

 

[5263]

There is nothing "modern" about topspin. That's been known about for decades. We are referring to modern technique. If you look at the "8 essential steps of a forehand" thread, he hits 0/8 of those "checkpoints."

Do you see him as less stiff than McEnroe?

Hard to know where to start with these comments. If you read my post, you saw I said that is what many or most think is modern. Either way, getting more topspin is most certainly an aspect of the modern topspin Fh. The 8 essential steps you cite are not listed as Modern, but only "a forehand" and do miss some of the modern checkpoints as well; so not sure how that figures in as any reference on what is modern. Why don't you just tell us what is not modern about tlm's strokes? and what is your ref for what actually is modern technique?

As to tlm's stiffness...I see him as pretty normal in that regard given his age and taking up tennis later in life, in spite of how so many on here want to harp about it in each of his videos. Makes no sense to me to compare him to Jmac, so not sure what you have in mind there either. Do you have a point to convey?

 

[tlm]

There is nothing "modern" about topspin. That's been known about for decades. We are referring to modern technique. If you look at the "8 essential steps of a forehand" thread, he hits 0/8 of those "checkpoints."






Do you see him as less stiff than McEnroe?

So in this video of my forehand are you saying I am 0 for 8 in your checkpoints.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uhyHIVQewEw

 

[oble]

Wow.... You rotate your body so violently that you literally pivot on your front foot 180 degrees and face completely to the left including your head!

Looks kinda taxing on the shoulders as well.. :shock: but you do look very fit and athletic.
The motion of your arms look like you're doing chest fly rather than swinging a racquet :lol:

Flattening out the shot is mainly doing less up-and-across, and more through-and-across. Loosen up a bit and let your racquet arm extend through the contact more.

 

[Migelowsky]

Do you see him as less stiff than McEnroe?

?? I also don´t get how Mac got inserted on this, he is super smooth.

TML Your shots are getting in with good pace, now you have
your loopy, and your more agressive shot for finishing points.
You may not look smooth, but you are getting better and expanding your arsenal.

Do you grip your racquet very tight? My trainer gave a good reference in
how tight or loose you should hold your racquet. When you go to the movies and buy a soda, you take the cup with enough pressure to hold it, but not
enough to squeeze it and spill it.

Look are your opponent, she looks very smooth, if you can improve that you won´t get so tired after hitting your new hard flatter shots, and maybe you´ll swing even faster. That would also bennefit your loppy spinny regular shot.


Good luck =)

 

[comeback]

I'm not sure if Tim or other posters see this. But in this video it looks like Tim is hitting a lot of "closed stance" forehands and forcing the violent follow thru. But now the trajectory is a lot lower just not sure it is any more effective than Tim's higher trajectory.

 

[tlm]

?? I also don´t get how Mac got inserted on this, he is super smooth.

TML Your shots are getting in with good pace, now you have
your loopy, and your more agressive shot for finishing points.
You may not look smooth, but you are getting better and expanding your arsenal.

Do you grip your racquet very tight? My trainer gave a good reference in
how tight or loose you should hold your racquet. When you go to the movies and buy a soda, you take the cup with enough pressure to hold it, but not
enough to squeeze it and spill it.

Look are your opponent, she looks very smooth, if you can improve that you won´t get so tired after hitting your new hard flatter shots, and maybe you´ll swing even faster. That would also bennefit your loppy spinny regular shot.


Good luck =)

Yes I do grip the racket to tight a lot of times unless I make a note to loosen up the grip. Your right I can get some more power with using less energy if I loosen up more.

 

[tlm]

I'm not sure if Tim or other posters see this. But in this video it looks like Tim is hitting a lot of "closed stance" forehands and forcing the violent follow thru. But now the trajectory is a lot lower just not sure it is any more effective than Tim's higher trajectory.

I intend to use these shots when I get in the court on short balls with time to rip them, my backcourt game will still be mostly looping topspin shots.

 

[tlm]

You're muscling the ball too much, especially on the forehand side, and all that leads to extraneous body movement which hurts your balance and kinetic chain.

For example, look how much your head moves on your forehand - you're almost looking left at the end of the swing. Your head should be still through the swing.

I think you have the right goal in mind, but you're going about it the wrong way.

With everything I was doing wrong I wonder how 99% of my shots were in.

 

[Bundey]

Hard to know where to start with these comments. If you read my post, you saw I said that is what many or most think is modern.

Okay. Pretty random piece of information to add if you don't agree with those people. God... you thought my comments were hard to start with? I have to break your's down sentence by sentence just so it is clear what I'm responding to.

Either way, getting more topspin is most certainly an aspect of the modern topspin Fh.

The biomechanics that produce topspin in the modern ATP forehand are the point of current analysis. Guys have been hitting topspin forever.

The 8 essential steps you cite are not listed as Modern, but only "a forehand"

Okay... The OP of THIS THREAD didn't put "modern" in the title; therefore those aren't the steps that comprise a modern ATP forehand? If your knowledge of the subject is so limited that you need a title to inform you what is modern, why engage in a discussion such as this? That is Juan Martin Del Potro; and his forehand most certainly is a modern ATP forehand.

and do miss some of the modern checkpoints as well; so not sure how that figures in as any reference on what is modern.

Which points are missed? It's a reference on the modern FH technique because it's a frame by frame breakdown of JMDP's forehand.

Why don't you just tell us what is not modern about tlm's strokes? and what is your ref for what actually is modern technique?

I'll get to my explanation on why tlm's stroke isn't modern in a moment. One pretty good reference is the thread I linked earlier. The numerous slow motion videos of Federer are great references too.

Makes no sense to me to compare him to Jmac, so not sure what you have in mind there either. Do you have a point to convey?

You posted this:

You can be stiff, off balance or have poor timing with modern or traditional, but I expect all those things to show up worse with traditional instead of improving.

Seems that you saw a correlation between stiffness and traditional technique. Clearly JMac doesn't have a modern FH; yet he is less stiff than tlm. tlm's stiffness comes from a misunderstanding of where power is derived from. My point is that a traditional FH allows for more fluidity than he currently has.

There are less moving parts in JMac's FH. That doesn't equate to the same type of stiffness that tlm exhibits.

So in this video of my forehand are you saying I am 0 for 8 in your checkpoints.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uhyHIVQewEw

Not my checkpoints, the checkpoints listed in the thread.

The essence of a modern forehand is relaxation. The central take home message is to let your hand lead the racquet to contact. You have the most tense FH I've ever seen; so it really is a tedious exercise to go down the list of 8 modern FH checkpoints and compare them to your stroke.

The functional points of the modern ATP forehand are utilization of SSC, contact with nearly fully extended elbow (away from body), and drive through the contact window.

You can't get the SSC without significant lag. You have some lag, but not enough for the SSC. SSC is the reason you jump higher if you bend your knees and immediately jump instead of jumping after you pause in a squatted position.

I'd like to see your FH from the side. It is kind of difficult to see your contact point. Your elbow is bent too much. I think the ball could be farther in front of you during contact. It could also be farther away laterally from you during contact.

Your topspin isn't delivered from the racquet gliding or brushing over the top of the ball. Your racquet is skidding up directly behind the ball. You are producing a windshield wiper motion before and after contact. In other words, your time in the contact zone is too short. The windshield wiper is utilized by pros during the follow through.

 

[Bundey]

?? I also don´t get how Mac got inserted on this, he is super smooth.

I agree. If you read my previous post you'll see that was exactly my point.

 

[tlm]

Okay. Pretty random piece of information to add if you don't agree with those people. God... you thought my comments were hard to start with? I have to break your's down sentence by sentence just so it is clear what I'm responding to.



The biomechanics that produce topspin in the modern ATP forehand are the point of current analysis. Guys have been hitting topspin forever.



Okay... so just because the OP of THIS THREAD didn't put "modern" in the title, those aren't the steps that comprise a modern ATP forehand? Well, that is Juan Martin Del Potro, and his forehand most certainly is a modern ATP forehand.



Which points are missed? It's a reference on the modern FH technique because it's a frame by frame breakdown of JMDP's forehand.



I'll get to my explanation on why tlm's stroke isn't modern in a moment. One pretty good reference is the thread I linked earlier. The numerous slow motion videos of Federer are great references too.



You posted this:


Seems that you saw a correlation between stiffness and traditional technique. Clearly JMac doesn't have a modern FH; yet he is less stiff than tlm. tlm's stiffness comes from a misunderstanding of where power is derived from. My point is that a traditional FH allows for more fluidity than he currently has.

There are less moving parts in JMac's FH. That doesn't equate to the same type of stiffness that tlm exhibits.



Not my checkpoints, the checkpoints listed in the thread.

The essence of a modern forehand is relaxation. The central take home message is the let your hand lead the racquet to contact. You have the most tense FH I've ever seen, so it really is a tedious exercise to go down the list of 8 modern FH checkpoints and compare them to your stroke.

The functional points of the modern ATP forehand are utilization of SSC, contact with nearly fully extended elbow (away from body), and drive through the contact window.

You can't get the SSC without significant lag. You have some lag, but not enough for the SSC. SSC is the reason you jump higher if you bend your knees and immediately jump instead of jumping after you pause in a squatted position.

I'd like to see your FH from the side. It is kind of difficult to see your contact point. Your elbow is bent too much. I think the ball could be farther in front of you during contact. It could also be farther away laterally from you during contact.

Your topspin isn't delivered from the racquet gliding or brushing over the top of the ball. Your racquet is skidding up directly behind the ball. You are producing a windshield wiper motion before and after contact. The windshield wiper is utilized by pros during the follow through.

Like I said, I think you are a great player man. This is a lot of criticism, so it seems harsh. Just remember, I'm comparing you to guys who won't have to work a real job and will die millionaries because they play this game.

That's one of the biggest mistakes on this site is comparing a rec player with a pro, seems a little silly. A lot of people can hit some parts of their shots similair to what a pro player does but but to hit just like they do, I mean really. How many rec players can make that claim?

Many of your points are true I could use more lag, be looser use left arm more. But almost every ball I hit was in and I was swinging as hard as I could, so must have done something right. I don't see how it would be that tedious to compare the checkpoints to the modern forehand which you wrongly claimed that I was 0 for 8 on. And I definitely get some of my topspin from brushing over the ball.

 

[Bundey]

This sentence...

That's one of the biggest mistakes on this site is comparing a rec player with a pro, seems a little silly.

followed by this sentence...

I don't see how it would be that tedious to compare the checkpoints to the modern forehand which you wrongly claimed that I was 0 for 8 on.

When it comes to the functional aspects of the modern ATP FH, you have none.

A lot of people can hit some parts of their shots similair to what a pro player does but but to hit just like they do, I mean really. How many rec players can make that claim?

What's the point of this thread? I thought you were looking for solid constructive feedback that you could apply to improve? Maybe this is more like a child giving a drawing to his Dad so it could be hung on the fridge. If the large discrepancy between your form and that of the pros wasn't enough to make a step-by-step analysis tedious, your unwillingness to apply that analysis certainly makes it tedious.

But almost every ball I hit was in and I was swinging as hard as I could, so must have done something right.

Again, two statements that are amusing within the same post. Hate to patronize you, but your reluctance to criticism makes it easier. I'm taking time out of my break to help you. The idea isn't to swing as hard as you can. I'm convinced tennis is a muscular strengthening exercise for you.

And I definitely get some of my topspin from brushing over the ball.

We are getting into a semantics thing here. This is why I italicized some key words in the final paragraph of my latest long post. The mechanism behind your topspin is more of a "grazing behind the ball." The pros' mechanism is more of a "gliding over the ball." I can tell based off your contact point and the limited time your racquet head spends in the potential contact zone. THIS VIDEO does a great job illustrating the point I'm attempting to convey.

 

[GuyClinch]

Poor tlm. I hesitate to say much in these kind of threads - because actually his forehand is pretty good.

But you make one very basic fundamental mistake on most your forehands. You set up inside - instead of outside. This means in your backswing your elbow gets glued against your body the whole time.

I am trying to break this habit myself - that's why I was quick to see it. A good forehand has an outside setup. That means that elbow isn't glued to your backside during the backswing.

Its not a HUGE difference - its subtle.

Look at Fed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O5rWS3sun74.

What you are suppose to do - and this will sound a bit complicated you you set up 'outside' but with a slightly bent arm - you get into an L position, and then when you start your forward swing your racquet will lag back and go inside - and then you will swing outside at the ball (and now your arm straightens) - and then of course your swing will eventually come around and go inside.

Now that might send crazy - but the key point is you want during your backswing for both arms to extend across to some extent.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e0WFvuMs8zo

This guy explains (albeit confusingly) in this clip.

You are getting a lot of blowback on this thread despite hitting better forehands then a lot of people. People are picking up on this mistake and making a lot of interesting conclusions about what you are doing wrong.

You also don't really setup with your racquet as upright at the pros - but I would consider this a strictly stylistic issue and perfectly okay..

You might consider modeling your forehand like this one that Jeff S. demonstrates..

http://www.jeffsalzensteintennis.com/tennis-forehand-tip-a-first-move-tip-on-the-tennis-forehand/

This style gets that elbow away from your body with your first move and still gives you a proper swing line.. The thing is right now you are not getting a lot of your racquet up first move. You quickly 'give up' on it and leave that elbow stuck to your side..

Even guys like Novak that hit with more of a bent arm get more out of leverage in their swing. That is what you need to do to up your game. I think this should help. Maybe some of our more technically proficient posters can chime in - they have been strangely absent from this thread.

People like to throw around terms like you need to totally rebuild your forehand etc etc. I don't think you need to do any of that. You just need to become aware of a proper swing like and loosen your grip some so your racquet can lag - and you will improve your forehand.

 

[dominikk1985]

solid FH but I would like to see more external rotation of the upper arm. with a double bent FH the upper arm will externally rotate as the swing starts and then internally rotate to "catapult" the hand ahead of the elbow

see there:
http://www.revolutionarytennis.com/step8.html

that creates a lot of whip easily.

you keep the arm internally rotated all the time an use you chest and biceps to pull the hand forward.

you could also use a straight arm FH like fed but IMO that would be too big of a switch. look at bent arm FHs like tsonga, djokovic or haas.

 

[tlm]

This sentence...


followed by this sentence...

When it comes to the functional aspects of the modern ATP FH, you have none.



What's the point of this thread? I thought you were looking for solid constructive feedback that you could apply to improve? Maybe this is more like a child giving a drawing to his Dad so it could be hung on the fridge. If the large discrepancy between your form and that of the pros wasn't enough to make a step-by-step analysis tedious, your unwillingness to apply that analysis certainly makes it tedious.



Again, two statements that are amusing within the same post. Hate to patronize you, but your reluctance to criticism makes it easier. I'm taking time out of my break to help you. The idea isn't to swing as hard as you can. I'm convinced tennis is a muscular strengthening exercise for you.



We are getting into a semantics thing here. This is why I italicized some key words in the final paragraph of my latest long post. The mechanism behind your topspin is more of a "grazing behind the ball." The pros' mechanism is more of a "gliding over the ball." I can tell based off your contact point and the limited time your racquet head spends in the potential contact zone. THIS VIDEO does a great job illustrating the point I'm attempting to convey.

Man you are all over the place so to hit a modern forehand you have to hit exactly like an ATP pro? Okay I have it now, no matter what you can make yourself the man. I mean you know it all you have all the answers must be nice to be such an expert.

I was asked by some to show a video of hitting flatter shots instead of my normal looping shots and I did, but it is nowhere near good enough for you the tennis professor. Let's see some video of your shots there MR perfect.

 

[tlm]

Poor tlm. I hesitate to say much in these kind of threads - because actually his forehand is pretty good.

But you make one very basic fundamental mistake on most your forehands. You set up inside - instead of outside. This means in your backswing your elbow gets glued against your body the whole time.

I am trying to break this habit myself - that's why I was quick to see it. A good forehand has an outside setup. That means that elbow isn't glued to your backside during the backswing.

Its not a HUGE difference - its subtle.

Look at Fed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O5rWS3sun74.

What you are suppose to do - and this will sound a bit complicated you you set up 'outside' but with a slightly bent arm - you get into an L position, and then when you start your forward swing your racquet will lag back and go inside - and then you will swing outside at the ball (and now your arm straightens) - and then of course your swing will eventually come around and go inside.

Now that might send crazy - but the key point is you want during your backswing for both arms to extend across to some extent.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e0WFvuMs8zo

This guy explains (albeit confusingly) in this clip.

You are getting a lot of blowback on this thread despite hitting better forehands then a lot of people. People are picking up on this mistake and making a lot of interesting conclusions about what you are doing wrong.

You also don't really setup with your racquet as upright at the pros - but I would consider this a strictly stylistic issue and perfectly okay..

You might consider modeling your forehand like this one that Jeff S. demonstrates..

http://www.jeffsalzensteintennis.com/tennis-forehand-tip-a-first-move-tip-on-the-tennis-forehand/

This style gets that elbow away from your body with your first move and still gives you a proper swing line.. The thing is right now you are not getting a lot of your racquet up first move. You quickly 'give up' on it and leave that elbow stuck to your side..

Even guys like Novak that hit with more of a bent arm get more out of leverage in their swing. That is what you need to do to up your game. I think this should help. Maybe some of our more technically proficient posters can chime in - they have been strangely absent from this thread.

People like to throw around terms like you need to totally rebuild your forehand etc etc. I don't think you need to do any of that. You just need to become aware of a proper swing like and loosen your grip some so your racquet can lag - and you will improve your forehand.

You make some good points, I definitely set up to close to the ball. I think this would really help me to get away from the ball more, so my arm is not so close to my side.

 

[Chas Tennis]

I look at high level strokes and point out some differences.

Your take back is different.

1) Racket Height on Back Swing. As a checkpoint, the racket height in a high level forehand back swing is usually above the head, sometimes the hand is above the head.

Compare your racket height on the back swing to high level forehands like this and others.
https://vimeo.com/63687035

Google: forehand unit turn See the typical racket back swing height.
https://www.google.com/search?q=for...niv&ei=cseZVLX3K9HGsQTMhIC4Ag&ved=0CCUQsAQ4Cg

2) Separation angle - the angle between a line between the two shoulders and a line between the two hips in high pace high level forehands. Sometimes in warm up and low pace forehands you don't see much separation angle. It is an indication that the SSC is being used in the trunk area for the forehand. See if you can find some separation angle in your strokes and the high level forehands. Djokovic uses for pace more than most.

There does not appear to be any separation angle. Indicates not much SSC in the trunk/spine. Twisting the body can risk injury.

There is a principle for the forehand takeback that there should be some extra rotation of the shoulders farther back than the hips, a 'separation angle'. That puts some pre-stretch into the trunk muscles that can then be used for forward acceleration according to the principles of the stretch shortening cycle.

In my opinion, you don't have much of this extra upper body to hip "separation" angle (20-30°, according to the second reference below).

This issue is discussed in

Biomechanics of Advanced Tennis (2003), page 35, B. Elliott, M. Reid, M. Crespo
availble from the ITF Store and on Kindle
https://store.itftennis.com/product.asp?pid=50&previousscript=/home.asp

Technique Development in Tennis Stroke Production (2009), page 92, same authors
https://store.itftennis.com/product.asp?pid=86

Especially, I believe that Djokovic shows this motion well when he wants to develop extra forehand pace on a ball that is not pressuring him.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PLRLP8g7-zY
Some of the first forehands (5 & 20 sec) show how his upper body, shoulders, rotate back farther that his hips. Ignore the wide forehands. I see him do this "separation" extra turn angle of the shoulders compared to the hips in TV matches, sometimes the separation angle is more exaggerated than in the above video.

I should add that Djokovic at times may do more of this body twisting than most other players. He has also had occasional back pain including during matches, cause unknown. So take care with any experimentation with twisting your spine for the forehand.

I was interested in this issue and Googled forehand differential shoulders and found this very interesting, spot-on, TW reply. I would say that you turn your shoulders and hips in the forward swing more locked together just as SystemicAnomaly described for table tennis. Maybe you are using some of your experience from table tennis. ? But I believe that your technique may be more commonly used than the 'separation' technique. ?

http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showpost.php?p=5062156&postcount=15

Macci video on separation angle for the 2 hand backhand. The same description applies to the forehand.
http://tennisresources.com/index.cfm?area=video_detail&vidid=3848&rv=1

Anyhow, consider this upper body turn vs hip turn issue and the stretch shortening cycle. These issues are clearly explained in the references above.

The Federer video that Bundey posted in reply #38 shows the stretch shortening cycles throughout a warm-up stroke.

As others have said, the SSC is not being used enough.

 

[tlm]

I look at high level strokes and point out some differences.

Your take back is different.

1) Racket Height on Back Swing. As a checkpoint, the racket height in a high level forehand back swing is usually above the head, sometimes the hand is above the head.

Compare your racket height on the back swing to high level forehands like this and others.
https://vimeo.com/63687035

2) Separation angle - the angle between a line between the two shoulders and a line between the two hips in high pace high level forehands. Sometimes in warm up and low pace forehands you don't see much separation angle. It is an indication that the SSC is being used in the trunk area for the forehand. See if you can find some separation angle in your strokes and the high level forehands. Djokovic uses for pace more than most.

There does not appear to be any separation angle. Indicates not much SSC in the trunk/spine. Twisting the body can risk injury.



The Federer video that Bundey posted in reply #38 shows the stretch shortening cycles throughout a warm-up stroke.

As others have said, the SSC is not being used enough.

Okay but I never claimed to hit an ATP style forehand, only bundey and some of the experts that do not show videos of their perfect strokes. All I said was that i use a modern style forehand.

 

[sureshs]

In this thread, you will find out how to convert to forehand to ATP style like Federer for a nominal cost:

http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=520581

 

[JackB1]

Not sure how you can say this. It would seem that most people equate open stance and lots of topspin as 90% of what modern tennis is and tlm does both of those things in spades. Now I don't completely agree it is that simple, but yes, he hits the modern checkpoints and you can really point mostly to things like timing, stiffness or balance as you fault his strokes. While I don't agree so much with those comments, those are skills and abilities ... not indicators of lack of modern technique. You can be stiff, off balance or have poor timing with modern or traditional, but I expect all those things to show up worse with traditional instead of improving.

there is more to a "modern forehand" than just an open stance and topspin. Players have been using an open stance for a long time now and have been using topspin from day 1.

 

[JackB1]

I don't understand you saying my balance is way off after my shots. What's the difference if I go to my left some compared to going forward either way you have to recover. i have never been to tired after just one set, that is no worry for me.

Big difference and it's why you have to swing and work so hard. You aren't using the ground, your lower body/core and are just spinning open and your balance goes backwards and to the left. That would hurt your ability to recover back to the forehand side.

There's a reason why you don't see ONE Pro off balance like that after a routine forehand.

 

[JackB1]

You're muscling the ball too much, especially on the forehand side, and all that leads to extraneous body movement which hurts your balance and kinetic chain.

For example, look how much your head moves on your forehand - you're almost looking left at the end of the swing. Your head should be still through the swing.

I think you have the right goal in mind, but you're going about it the wrong way.

^^^ this this this

 

[JackB1]

Wow.... You rotate your body so violently that you literally pivot on your front foot 180 degrees and face completely to the left including your head!

Flattening out the shot is mainly doing less up-and-across, and more through-and-across. Loosen up a bit and let your racquet arm extend through the contact more.

that's also what I was saying.

But Tlm thinks there's nothing wrong with finishing that way, so I don't know what we can do to help him?

 

[JackB1]

With everything I was doing wrong I wonder how 99% of my shots were in.

If your goal is to get 99% of your shots in, then why continue with these threads?

Yes your shots are going in, but I thought you wanted to work on hitting a flatter ball?