Racquet Snobs, O/S Racquets, and this Board

vin said:
Modern tennis is played with much more aggressive and volatile swings which makes it a lot harder to handle a heavy racket. Most people I know that successfully use a heavy racket have strokes that don't involve as much racket head movement.

A lot of us in our 30's, 40's and 50's don't play "modern" tennis, and for us heavier rackets may be the best option based on our strokes and for health concerns. For someone just starting out I wouldn't recommened a 12+ ounce racket, just as I wouldn't recommend a 9 ounce racket. There are plenty of things in between.

When my wife started playing I started her out with the Warrior OS -- low 11 ounces and head light. After a year she moved to the Warrior MP because she got more power on the serve and liked the control. Now she's using the Maxply McEnroe stock. She has much better strokes than women who have been playing the game for 15 years using 9/10 ounce rackets, and I attribute much of that to having started with a frame with substantial weight.
 

chess9

Hall of Fame
If someone would please call someone a **** we will have a nice, comfy conclusion to this thread and we can all go out and slash tires and burn down a city. :)

--Robert
________
Zx14 vs hayabusa
 
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Grimjack

Banned
BreakPoint said:
I didn't say that pros today should be using small 14 oz. racquets, did I? Not even McEnroe uses one. The Maxply McEnroe is 11.3 oz. and 98 sq. in, and I didn't notice any lead on his racquet. What I'm saying is that because he learned to play with a wood racquet, his strokes, timing, and footwork had to be better than if he learned using a bigger, lighter, more powerful racquet, and that's why he still so good today. He can use the same strokes that have been ingrained in him, but with a modern racquet, he can now hit with even more margin of error, more precision, more accuracy, and even more power. People who learned on a big, light, powerful racquet likely never developed that level of accuracy and footwork since it wasn't necessary to get the ball over the net, and thus, they will likely lose some accuracy as they age and their arms and legs get weaker and slower.

Again, can you imagine Roddick being able to still play on the ATP tour at 47, singles or doubles? His game is dependent on power rather than precision, and he'll lose a lot of that power as he ages. Unfortunately, he never had to learn how to be very precise because he just bludgeoned people with his powerful, big-headed racquet instead.

BP, I'm not addressing this specifically to you, merely quoting your post because it's illustrative and conveniently located.

There are two distinct paths of logic at play here, and people are arguing either one or the other -- and for the most part, people on both sides are doing it logically. But people don't seem to realize that the modern game, combined with the realities of human physiology, require one to see TWO paths of logic with respect to both racquets and swing mechanics.

YES, it's true that the modern game -- especially played at its most competitive -- is a game of violent, full-body swings, and is probably most effectively played with "tweeners" (or at least, non-players frames, in the traditional sense). The evidence for this is that virtually all the best players in the world (and at each level along the way) play that violent game, and play it with non-players' racquets.

And YES, it's true that the "traditional", fundamental game is friendlier to the human body, lends itself to a lifetime of enjoyment, and is probably best learned and played with a players stick.

Those things DON'T contradict each other. What they suggest is that one has to make a choice, and the earlier in one's development one does so, the better off he will be.

If one wishes to compete at the highest levels -- if one wants to be able to compete as a junior with the best, biggest-hitting juniors...if one wants to be able to compete at the collegiate level...and of course, if one has legitimate professional aspirations -- the odds say he should learn to use a more powerful, more modern racquet, and he should learn to use it in the modern power-game sense. It is NOT the only way to play, but the odds are WAY stacked against you if you make any other choice. Few people cut in competitive tennis to begin with, and of those that do, WAY over 90% are cutting it this way. One has to be an exceptional talent to do otherwise. In addition, the "traditional" game takes longer to master, and chances you'll fall too far behind your power-bashing peers and fall out of the game entirely are excellent.

On the other hand, if one wishes to cultivate a lifetime of enjoyment recreationally, a more body-friendly game and racquet are probably well-advised. As you learn your wooden-era, weight-transfer fundamentals, you'll probably not be as well-developed (gamewise) as the best big bangers. You'll probably wind up with an empty tropy case as you go along...BUT...you'll have a game that translates itself well into middle age, and older age...and also one that lends itself to doubles tennis (which is where so much recreational tennis is played, anyway).

History is seeming to show that if you want to be competitive at the HIGHEST levels in today's game, yet you still want to play an older-style, players racquet, fundamental game, you need to have unbelievable amounts of talent. McEnroe, Federer, Sampras. These guys aren't called tennis legends for nothing. They have talent nobody on these boards ever will.

For most of the rest, it's a choice.

I don't think those who vocally advocate the use of heavy, flexible, fundamentally-friendly players frames are doing a disservice to anybody. Those racquets probably AREN'T the best choice for those looking to burn their candle brightly but quickly. But then, the odds say that anybody asking the question here in the first place is probably going to be a lot better served by cultivating the style of game that will reward them throughout their lives. By advocating that style of play, and that style of racquet to everyone who asks, the advocator is doing a long-run favor to at least 99% of people who ask.

But then, I also don't think those who rail against players frames in favor of the modern game and modern racquets are off their rockers, either. It's human nature to want to be a competitive as possible, as quickly as possible. and for those whose goal THIS is, they are probably well-advised to take this path.

It's all a matter of what your goals are. (Though I'd say many more people would be better off if they worried about what their goals SHOULD BE, instead.)
 

Grimjack

Banned
chess9 said:
If someone would please call someone a **** we will have a nice, comfy conclusion to this thread and we can all go out and slash tires and burn down a city. :)

--Robert

Whatever you say, ****.
 

rocket

Hall of Fame
texcoug said:
Experimented with some tweeners (first, the Bab PCZ 360, then bought the 03 Red and Head Radical Team) and played much better. Tennis is just more fun when you are playing better.

P.S. I did have to shelf the 03 Red because it had too much pop and I have too much swing. I am having a much better time with the low powered Head Radical Team (same weight, low power).

Your experience is a perfect example of someone leaning towards a lower powered, player's racquet as your level of competence increases. By that I mean your swing is much more fluid, your preparation taken much earlier, your timing much more right on, so you need less power in your racquet to compensate for a shorter/late swing. Whether you will want more weight in your racquet remains to be seen.

A heavier racquet requires more muscle power to swing, a much earlier preparation and it can tire your arm after a couple of sets, but I find that the weight that you put in the ball is tremendous. On the other hand, a lighter racquet allows a quicker take-back & swing, thus is easier to play with against a fast ball. It might not give you a killer shot but does let you stay in the point & perhaps outlast your opponent. :cool:
 

rocket

Hall of Fame
BreakPoint said:
Yes, he does. He just makes it look much more effortless than most of us mere mortals do. He still prepares early, holds the racquet head steady on contact, hits the ball squarely in the sweetspot, and follows through. It matters less what your arm and wrist are doing than what your racquet is doing.

Mac is a fantastic touch-player, not known for his powerful groundies obviously but his timing is dead-on & angle-finding unparalleled. :cool:
 

Pancho

Semi-Pro
BreakPoint said:
So are you saying that people today are weaker than they were 30 years ago? I think the evidence shows that people today are bigger and stronger than ever before. So if these weaker and smaller people could learn to play tennis using a 14 oz., 65 sq. in. racquet, why do these much stronger and bigger people need a 9 oz., 115 sq. in. racquet to learn to play tennis with? :confused:

John McEnroe is still so good at the age of 47 because he grew up and learned the game with a heavy, small wood racquet which forced him to learn the fundamentals and to be much more precise and to prepare for his strokes early. This is why he can still hit the ball so well at his advanced age. I don't think I can say the same about people who learned the game using 9 oz., 115 sq. in., powerful racquets, as they never really learned the fundamentals, so as they age, I think their games will become much more sloppy and less precise.


Times change and so does technology. I have seen total beginners playing with a heavier racquet like O3 Tour or POG and they just cannot use the racquet properly. Heavier racqutes like that are meant for the advanced player.

Yes, wooden racquets were heavier before like in the 60's but that doesn't mean that we have still have to use those heavy racquets. That is why companies keep coming out with racquets with great technology.

I have to disagree with you with light racquets. I have seen seniors that use the new light and powerful racquets to their advantage. I saw a senoir guy win a tournament using a light head racquet in the Men's 4.0 division. He beat guys that use pro racquets like O3 Tour. You do not need to use heavy racquets anymore. Needless to say - they don't need to listen to you - LOL!
 

vin

Professional
Brad Smith said:
A lot of us in our 30's, 40's and 50's don't play "modern" tennis, and for us heavier rackets may be the best option based on our strokes and for health concerns.

For sure, but that doesn't mean an 11 oz stick is going to engrain laziness or tear up arm tendons, which is what some of the "player" frame fanatics like to preach. But to make their case sound better, they cite 9 oz frames.

And for what it's worth, using heavy rackets didn't guide me to having good strokes. When I used to arm the ball, I did it with a heavy racket. Understanding proper mechanics is what got me past that, and ironically, I find it easier to execute a more technically correct stroke with a lighter racket because I'm not tightening my arm to make compensations.
 

mark1

Semi-Pro
Pancho said:
Times change and so does technology. I have seen total beginners playing with a heavier racquet like O3 Tour or POG and they just cannot use the racquet properly. Heavier racqutes like that are meant for the advanced player.

Yes, wooden racquets were heavier before like in the 60's but that doesn't mean that we have still have to use those heavy racquets. That is why companies keep coming out with racquets with great technology.

I have to disagree with you with light racquets. I have seen seniors that use the new light and powerful racquets to their advantage. I saw a senoir guy win a tournament using a light head racquet in the Men's 4.0 division. He beat guys that use pro racquets like O3 Tour. You do not need to use heavy racquets anymore. Needless to say - they don't need to listen to you - LOL!


two problems with your argument.

one is that the O3 tour is not heavy. its pretty light weight. maybe you should eat more wheaties....?

two is that you seem to be looking at things the wrong way. imo, people dont win or lose matches because they play with an O3 or a lm radical or a hyper hammer. people wiin or lose matches due to their skill level and their smarts on how to play the game. Older players typically can give younger hard hitters problems because they anticipate well and hit with tremendous accuracy and know how to construct a point. The older guy won because he was a better player, not because his opponent used the wrong racket. Hopefully you can see this connection...
 

Camilio Pascual

Hall of Fame
texcoug said:
I am a faithful reader/poster/member of this board and I spend more time perusing this board than any other internet site. I have to admit that I have noticed a sort of discrimination on this board against tweener racquets or, gasp, game improvement frames -- a bit of racquet snobbery.
Among some thoughtful and helpful remarks, there will always be those that, rather than attempting to listen to the posters concerns or ideas,...
/s/ Board Police

Much as the boards which I preuse concerning cars, guns, photography, camping, etc. IOW, if you get 3 or more Indians together, the debate will be about arrows (there will be at least 2 types), and there will be a snob appeal in at least 1 type of arrow (racquet, car, gun, wine, camping gear, whatever).
 

texcoug

Rookie
I play with seniors on a regular basis -- 2-3 times / week in a set doubles game. One is near 70, one in early 60s, and 2 in 50s. ALL of them play with the 03 Silver (118"). Now, all we play is doubles, but I keep trying to persuade two of them (who have full swings) to try my 03 Red. They are not interested. But, I must say, they do just fine with that industrial grade, military issue silver! It's a great racquet for blocking a hard serve and keeping pace (from my perspective).
 

Kevo

Legend
I think equipment can only ever be an incremental improvement. I compare this to programming. You can always tweak your code to make it a little bit faster. However, if you want orders of magnitude increased, you need a new algorithm. In tennis, your mental game, and your technique is your algorithm, and the racquet, strings, shoes, etc..., are the the little code tweaks. My recommendation is always focus on the algorithm of highest priority. Find the weak link in your tennis game algorithms and fix that. You can change equipment as often as you like, but majors improvements come with the algorithms.
 

vin

Professional
bluegrasser said:
Vin - Your Volkl is 12 oz, so how does that = light ?

It's actually pretty light in terms of swingweight, but I'm in the process of choosing something closer to 11 oz with a similar swingweight. As mark1 said, I've been playing with the DNX 8 lately.
 

tom4ny

Professional
Main Entry: snob
Pronunciation: 'snäb
Function: noun
Etymology: origin unknown
1 British : COBBLER
2 : one who blatantly imitates, fawningly admires, or vulgarly seeks association with those regarded as social superiors
3 a : one who tends to rebuff, avoid, or ignore those regarded as inferior b : one who has an offensive air of superiority in matters of knowledge or taste

http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/snob
 

Pancho

Semi-Pro
mark1 said:
two problems with your argument.

one is that the O3 tour is not heavy. its pretty light weight. maybe you should eat more wheaties....?

two is that you seem to be looking at things the wrong way. imo, people dont win or lose matches because they play with an O3 or a lm radical or a hyper hammer. people wiin or lose matches due to their skill level and their smarts on how to play the game. Older players typically can give younger hard hitters problems because they anticipate well and hit with tremendous accuracy and know how to construct a point. The older guy won because he was a better player, not because his opponent used the wrong racket. Hopefully you can see this connection...


That's what I've been saying all along - players beat you with skills not with players racquets. Or elese everyone will get a Federer or Hewitt's racquet and beat you - not that case.

However, many snobs here are so hung up with heavier racquets. Looks like you're a snob if you say O3 Tour is not heavy. For today's beginner - O3 Tour is heavy. Trust me - I have seen fresh beginners to have trying hitting with that stick and cannot handle it because of the weight and don't know how to hit or generate power. Thus, O3 Tour is NOT for beginners. O3 Tour is not a good choice for a fresh beginner no matter how strong he or she is.
 

mark1

Semi-Pro
the worst part about this thread is the blatant name calling and mud slinging. you dont know me pancho. we have never met. how you know that i am a "snob" as you put it is beyond me. i personally would never refer to another person, including you, in a derogatory or offensive way if i had never met the person. however, miraculously you have managed to figure out that i am a snob from ONE POST that i made here. there is a proper way to have a civil disagreement and constructive argument and then there is name calling and mud slinging. read your responses to others and see which side of the fence you fall on. in my opinion this attitude has made it difficult and or impossible for people to engage in a discussion with you. i see this as unfortunate. i tried.....take care...

and an aside...players beat you with skills not rackets, (this includes players rackets AND tweeners as well)
 

PM_

Professional
mark1 said:
two problems with your argument.

one is that the O3 tour is not heavy. its pretty light weight. maybe you should eat more wheaties....?

two is that you seem to be looking at things the wrong way. imo, people dont win or lose matches because they play with an O3 or a lm radical or a hyper hammer. people wiin or lose matches due to their skill level and their smarts on how to play the game. Older players typically can give younger hard hitters problems because they anticipate well and hit with tremendous accuracy and know how to construct a point. The older guy won because he was a better player, not because his opponent used the wrong racket. Hopefully you can see this connection...

wrong, wrong, and wrong.
the 03 Tour 95 is listed as 12oz: http://www.tennis-warehouse.com/descpage.html?PCODE=PO3T

people don't win matches b/c of only one thing, it's usually a combination of things-including the gear they're using.

the older guy was a better player b/c of those combination of things, what if he were to use a POG? can you be certain he'd win then?


again, don't mean to be a snob here.

Let’s just face it, regardless of morality, some people just aren’t physically inept to use player’s frames anyway. So what’s the point of arguing..

Here’s my recent history:

Got back into the game about a year ago after a 15 year hiatus. Thought I had to “buy” into the new technology and purchased a game-improvement stick, a Volkl Q7.
Decided it was too light after I found my strokes again, picked up my last racquet, a Prince Graphite Pro 90 (well over 12oz).
My strokes were imprecise to strike the small head consistently, so purchased an Mfil 200.
I found the SW much too to time my shots against fast hitters, bought an APD.
Concluded that it was too light, too powerful, and my strokes were degenerating b/c it was TOO EASY!
Traded that in for 2 X1s. The stick’s just right and just enough demanding for me.


The message? Find what works for you.
 

mark1

Semi-Pro
i guess i found it to be somewhat obvious that people should choose whats best for them. however, to say that some old man beat a younger guy because the younger guy was using a players racket is inaccurate. How would the OP know that this man would have played better with a lighter racket. For me, I do play better with a lighter racket. Clearly this is not the case for everyone.

Also, i was referring to the O3 MP which is the more common O3. If you have ever played with one im sure you would also feel that it is rather light swinging. Certainly not heavy like a prestige or the like.
 

AngeloDS

Hall of Fame
Hmmm, I see some people saying using big frames that are light = no skill. I have to disagree. It takes skill to be able to wield a light and big frame. Trying to get precision & control is rather difficult compared to a smaller frame.
 

BreakPoint

Bionic Poster
Pancho said:
Times change and so does technology. I have seen total beginners playing with a heavier racquet like O3 Tour or POG and they just cannot use the racquet properly. Heavier racqutes like that are meant for the advanced player.
First of all, the O3 Tour is NOT a heavy racquet. Many people find it too light and flimsy, myself included. In fact, the Prince rep I spoke to last week even admitted to me that the O3 Tour is too light. So if one can't even swing an O3 Tour then perhaps he should be spending more time in the gym than on the court.
Pancho said:
Yes, wooden racquets were heavier before like in the 60's but that doesn't mean that we have still have to use those heavy racquets. That is why companies keep coming out with racquets with great technology.
It sounds like you're one of the gullible ones that has been fooled into believing all the marketing hype spewed out by the racquet companies over the years. :( The only "technologies" that make any difference are weight, balance, and flex. Please read the book "Technical Tennis" by those racquet scientists.
Pancho said:
I have to disagree with you with light racquets. I have seen seniors that use the new light and powerful racquets to their advantage. I saw a senoir guy win a tournament using a light head racquet in the Men's 4.0 division. He beat guys that use pro racquets like O3 Tour. You do not need to use heavy racquets anymore. Needless to say - they don't need to listen to you - LOL!
Thank you. You've just made my point for me! :D As illustrated by my McEnroe example, these seniors most likely learned to play tennis with wood racquets, thus, their strokes, preparation, and footwork were developed to be much more precise. Now you give these seniors a light, big headed racquet and it's like nirvana for them! Just like it has been for McEnroe. Now they have even more margin for error, more maneuverability, and more power to make up for their weaker and slower bodies, but since they have sound fundamentals gained from their wood racquet days, they can still maintain the precision and accuracy in their shots since they hit the ball with steady, controlled strokes. This is one reason why you see so many "old" guys with big racquets beating the pants off of youngsters who learned using a big, powerful racquet. :p
 

Zverev

Professional
Wow! This useless thread grew to gigantic size!
All racquets are players racquet because all of them are for people playing tennis.
This thread, though, looks like a blackmailing attempt on people that are using heavier racquets, with a purpose to have them shut up and not even to mention why they believe that weight works for them (generate power using weight rather than speed, and saving elbow doing that).
BTW, players racquet is not heavy, flexible, small headed - it can be stiff like Roddick's babolat, and it can have big head like Agassi's Radical - but it cannot be below 300g - none of the first 100 pros have such racquet.

I made some observations at my club - never really paid attention before - older guys tend to play with older heavier racqets (say Prince), I think because that's what they used to and can generate vicious slice with.
Almost all women have switched to light wide bodies, and young guns are swinging babolats and don't stay on their way, they topspin you off the court.
I wish I could do it, but my elbow didn't like it. My elbow like weight at front to meet the ball.
 
Breakpoint, I'm in agreement with you about most issues. One thing I'm not sure that has been mentioned in this 12 page thread, is that regardless of racquet, or time on court, natural talent and athletism is still required to play this game at a high level.

I've have worked with handfuls of people, who have a general love for the game but at the same time have no god given talent to allow them to succeed. For these players, and for those who have no desire to play at any competitive level, a lighter racquet may in fact be the answer.
 

BreakPoint

Bionic Poster
RedKat said:
Well, this is not exactly true. In this case we are talking about the impulse, which is equal MV, where M is the mass and V is the speed. Your logic would be right when you use 9 and 13 oz. rackets with the SAME BALANCE. Now, the balance point is the point, where the center of gravity located and this is what actually matters. Center of gravity of 9 oz. HEAD HEAVY racket travels much faster (it is farther from the butt) then of 13 oz. HEAD LIGHT racket resulting in the same impulse. It is the stiffness of the light racket that often causes tennis elbow.

Sorry, but M x V = momentum.

Anyway, there is so substitute for weight. You cannot defy the laws of physics. Heavier racquets are always going to be able to absorb more impact energy, and thus, absorb more shock and vibration than lighter racquets can. This is why heavier racquets feel more stable and why many people complain that light racquets feel too unstable. It doesn't really matter where that weight is located as far as absorption of shock and vibration is concerned.

I was speaking to a guy from Prince last week that's involved in racquet design (he gave me some insights into the development of Blake's new racquet), and he admitted to me that no matter what they do, there's just no substitute for weight. No "technology" they could ever come up with can ever compensate for lack of weight. This is the same guy that admitted that the O3 Tour is too light. The new James Blake racquet will be a heavier player's racquet with few bells and whistles, although it will incorporate some O3 ports in some fashion to make it swing through the air quicker. Thank you very much, Prince, for listening! :D
 

chess9

Hall of Fame
BreakPoint said:
First of all, the O3 Tour is NOT a heavy racquet. Many people find it too light and flimsy, myself included. In fact, the Prince rep I spoke to last week even admitted to me that the O3 Tour is too light. So if one can't even swing an O3 Tour then perhaps he should be spending more time in the gym than on the court.

It sounds like you're one of the gullible ones that has been fooled into believing all the marketing hype spewed out by the racquet companies over the years. :( The only "technologies" that make any difference are weight, balance, and flex. Please read the book "Technical Tennis" by those racquet scientists.

Thank you. You've just made my point for me! :D As illustrated by my McEnroe example, these seniors most likely learned to play tennis with wood racquets, thus, their strokes, preparation, and footwork were developed to be much more precise. Now you give these seniors a light, big headed racquet and it's like nirvana for them! Just like it has been for McEnroe. Now they have even more margin for error, more maneuverability, and more power to make up for their weaker and slower bodies, but since they have sound fundamentals gained from their wood racquet days, they can still maintain the precision and accuracy in their shots since they hit the ball with steady, controlled strokes. This is one reason why you see so many "old" guys with big racquets beating the pants off of youngsters who learned using a big, powerful racquet. :p

I agree about the O3 Tour. The one I demoed weighed in at 11.6 oz, not 12! That was in England though, so maybe the racquet's different over there. I have tried large sized racquets, and frankly, I don't notice any improvement in my game. Some guys might, and if so, more power to 'em. But, my view is that most of this racquet "technology" is hype. There have been a few good improvements in racquets in the last 20 years, but strings have improved even more. When I was a kid you chose from two or three strings, but these days you can really dial in the feel better. Oh, and when I hear the phrase "the modern game", oh, please, stop right there. What nonsense....John Yandell says the top pro players have something like 8 different forehands alone. If this is "the modern game", well, ok, but whose modern game is it? And now the top coaches are talking about more slice shots being added to the game. Oh, my, is this like fashion? Will my '60's love beads be a necessary accessory for my next appearance at Le Club?

I didn't put in paragraphs or hit enter because I'm preserving my status as a snob. Don't anyone suggest I'm not a snob. I like being a snob. I haven't had a social promotion for 40 years!!!!

-Robert
________
group Cams
 
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BreakPoint

Bionic Poster
Grimjack said:
I don't think those who vocally advocate the use of heavy, flexible, fundamentally-friendly players frames are doing a disservice to anybody. Those racquets probably AREN'T the best choice for those looking to burn their candle brightly but quickly. But then, the odds say that anybody asking the question here in the first place is probably going to be a lot better served by cultivating the style of game that will reward them throughout their lives. By advocating that style of play, and that style of racquet to everyone who asks, the advocator is doing a long-run favor to at least 99% of people who ask.

Thanks for that, Grimjack! :D
 

ohplease

Professional
BreakPoint said:
Sorry, but M x V = momentum.

Anyway, there is so substitute for weight. You cannot defy the laws of physics. Heavier racquets are always going to be able to absorb more impact energy, and thus, absorb more shock and vibration than lighter racquets can. This is why heavier racquets feel more stable and why many people complain that light racquets feel too unstable. It doesn't really matter where that weight is located as far as absorption of shock and vibration is concerned.

Wrong. Again:

"You need some *combination* of mass or velocity for high momentum transfer into the ball.

Depending on someone's swing, blindly going heavier could easily affect velocity, resulting in less momentum transfer, not more.

Additionally, playing with balance points can easily yield a lightweight frame that puts just as much mass on the ball as a heavy frame.

In either case, blindly going lighter for more racket head speed or heavier for more mass is NOT assured to impart more momentum on the ball. Either might work, but neither is going to work in every case, for every player, for every swing."

Educate yourself on hitting weight and you might spare us your tired mantras.
 

BreakPoint

Bionic Poster
cruzersi99 said:
Breakpoint, I'm in agreement with you about most issues. One thing I'm not sure that has been mentioned in this 12 page thread, is that regardless of racquet, or time on court, natural talent and athletism is still required to play this game at a high level.

I've have worked with handfuls of people, who have a general love for the game but at the same time have no god given talent to allow them to succeed. For these players, and for those who have no desire to play at any competitive level, a lighter racquet may in fact be the answer.

Yes, I agree cruzersi99. It seems like many people look to a racquet as a panacea to solve all of their tennis shortcomings, and to make up for their lack of athleticism and/or coordination. I think most people would be better served by working on their footwork, putting in time in the gym to get into better shape, and doing drills to improve their strokes and eye-hand coordination rather than relying on a new magical racquet that's going to instantly make them better tennis players.

Yes, a bigger, lighter racquet may improve some people's games, but for many people it won't. It really just depends on the individual and how much he or she wants to get out of the game and how much he or she wants to improve and get to the next level in the long run, and how long they want to keep playing tennis into their old age. I think a light, big, powerful racquet may allow you to play better now but may impede your development into a superior tennis player in the long run. Of course, one can move to a different racquet as they improve, but they may have to re-learn their strokes and get rid of all the nasty habits they developed from using a big, light, powerful racquet.
 

ohplease

Professional
RedKat said:
Well, this is not exactly true. In this case we are talking about the impulse, which is equal MV, where M is the mass and V is the speed. Your logic would be right when you use 9 and 13 oz. rackets with the SAME BALANCE. Now, the balance point is the point, where the center of gravity located and this is what actually matters.

This is absolutely correct in terms of hitting mass.

It is the stiffness of the light racket that often causes tennis elbow.

This is not entirely correct. Do a search for recoil weight. By playing with balance, light rackets place more beef on the ball while sacrificing the racket's ability to absorb the shock of impact.
 

BreakPoint

Bionic Poster
ohplease said:
Wrong. Again:

"You need some *combination* of mass or velocity for high momentum transfer into the ball.

Depending on someone's swing, blindly going heavier could easily affect velocity, resulting in less momentum transfer, not more.

Additionally, playing with balance points can easily yield a lightweight frame that puts just as much mass on the ball as a heavy frame.

In either case, blindly going lighter for more racket head speed or heavier for more mass is NOT assured to impart more momentum on the ball. Either might work, but neither is going to work in every case, for every player, for every swing."

Educate yourself on hitting weight and you might spare us your tired mantras.

I guess you're not a physics major.

So you're saying that if you swing a lighter racquet faster that it will absorb more shock and vibration than a heavy racquet swung slower? :confused:

A heavier racquet will absorb more shock and vibration than a lighter racquet at ANY swing speed that you swing both racquets at.

Please re-read that post of mine that you quoted. Did I say anything at all about transfer of momentum from the racquet to the ball or anything about conservation of momentum during a collision?
 

ohplease

Professional
BreakPoint said:
I guess you're not a physics major.

So you're saying that if you swing a lighter racquet faster that it will absorb more shock and vibration than a heavy racquet swung slower? :confused:

A heavier racquet will absorb more shock and vibration than a lighter racquet at ANY swing speed that you swing both racquets at.

Please re-read that post of mine that you quoted. Did I say anything at all about transfer of momentum from the racquet to the ball or anything about conservation of momentum during a collision?

In the same way that playing with balances with make light rackets hit just as heavy as heavy, light rackets can also be made to absorb more shock through recoil weight.

You're claiming heavier is better. In all cases. Independent of balance. That's simply not true. Guess you didn't major in rhetoric.
 

BreakPoint

Bionic Poster
ohplease said:
In the same way that playing with balances with make light rackets hit just as heavy as heavy, light rackets can also be made to absorb more shock through recoil weight.
Oh really? Please show me. By what mass would this shock be absorbed by? :confused:
ohplease said:
You're claiming heavier is better. In all cases. Independent of balance. That's simply not true. Guess you didn't major in rhetoric.
Nope. Lighter racquets are better for some people, but heavier racquets will absorb more shock and vibration independent of balance.

You yourself said this a few minutes ago. Did you already forget? :rolleyes:
ohplease said:
By playing with balance, light rackets place more beef on the ball while sacrificing the racket's ability to absorb the shock of impact.
 

Kaptain Karl

Hall Of Fame
RedKat said:
Well, this is not exactly true. In this case we are talking about the impulse, which is equal MV, where M is the mass and V is the speed. Your logic would be right when you use 9 and 13 oz. rackets with the SAME BALANCE. Now, the balance point is the point, where the center of gravity located and this is what actually matters. Center of gravity of 9 oz. HEAD HEAVY racket travels much faster (it is farther from the butt) then of 13 oz. HEAD LIGHT racket resulting in the same impulse. It is the stiffness of the light racket that often causes tennis elbow.
Why do you always like extremes? Tweener is neither 9oz nor 13oz. It has intermediate stiffness (~65), intermediate head size (98-100), intermediate weight (~11oz). It simply fits everybody from 1.0 to 7.0
Nice job, RedKat!

- KK
 

ohplease

Professional
BreakPoint said:
Oh really? Please show me. By what mass would this shock be absorbed by? :confused:

Nope. Lighter racquets are better for some people, but heavier racquets will absorb more shock and vibration independent of balance.

You yourself said this a few minutes ago. Did you already forget? :rolleyes:

"Recoil Weight – The racquet’s resistance to movement around its axis through the balance point (center of mass). This creates stability against the ball pushing your hand, wrist, and arm backward during a hit. In other words, it minimizes shock."

from: http://www.racquetmaxx.com/racquetterms.shtml

You change the location of the center of mass, you change the balance. You change the balance, you change the recoil weight. You change the balance, you change the amount of shock. Therefore, shock absorption is ABSOLUTELY NOT independent of balance.

Ha ha. You lose.
 

AngeloDS

Hall of Fame
My only beef is that BreakPoint, you try to make a racquets advantages sound like purely disadvantages and that it's not "tennis" and the person or such are lacking.

Given an example as such:

Smaller headed racquets are excellent at control, and aren't powerful.

Then spin-doctoring it as such, "Well the person obviously has no self or natural control and must use a smaller headed racquet because he doesn't have control! It isn't powerful, so the person obviously has no ability in controlling their power. So they must use a racquet to blah blah blah. They suck at tennis if they don't have self control and self control of power blah blah."

Then you go off on theory and saying other things.

A racquet has advantages and disadvantages. Obviously. But portraying the advantages as strictly disadavantages is wrong. Then using spin-doctoring to favor your own side.
 

BreakPoint

Bionic Poster
ohplease said:
"Recoil Weight – The racquet’s resistance to movement around its axis through the balance point (center of mass). This creates stability against the ball pushing your hand, wrist, and arm backward during a hit. In other words, it minimizes shock."

from: http://www.racquetmaxx.com/racquetterms.shtml

You change the location of the center of mass, you change the balance. You change the balance, you change the recoil weight. You change the balance, you change the amount of shock. Therefore, shock absorption is ABSOLUTELY NOT independent of balance.

Ha ha. You lose.

Uh...sorry, but "The racquet’s resistance to movement around its axis through the balance point (center of mass)." has to do with stability and resistance to twisting, not absorption of shock and vibration. You may 'feel" less shock, but believe me, that shock and vibration are still there and your elbow will eventually feel it in the long run. That's why everyone agrees that lightweight, head heavy racquets are bad for elbows. You may not "feel" that shock as much when you hit the ball, but one day your elbow will give out and you'll have tennis elbow.

Shock and vibration can only be absorbed by a frame's mass or by stringing at a lower tension with softer strings (or by some foam or shock absorbing material in the handle or frame). But assuming two racquets made of the same materials, strung at the same tension with the same string, and neither having shock absorbing handles, the heavier racquet will absorb more shock and vibration than the lighter racquet independent of the balance. It's the total mass of the frame that's absorbing and dissipating the shock and vibration. It's simple physics. A heavier object transmits less shock and vibration because more of the shock and vibration is dissipated throughout more molecules that make up the mass.

And, oh yeah, sorry....but you lose!
 

ohplease

Professional
BreakPoint said:
Uh...sorry, but "The racquet’s resistance to movement around its axis through the balance point (center of mass)." has to do with stability and resistance to twisting, not absorption of shock and vibration.

http://www.racquettech.com/top/tools_toc.html

They have calculators for both "twistweight" which you're thinking of in the hopes of not being wrong, and "recoil weight" - which is exactly what we're talking about.

Good try though. At least you're trying to edumacate yourself.
 

BreakPoint

Bionic Poster
AngeloDS said:
My only beef is that BreakPoint, you try to make a racquets advantages sound like purely disadvantages and that it's not "tennis" and the person or such are lacking.

Given an example as such:

Smaller headed racquets are excellent at control, and aren't powerful.

Then spin-doctoring it as such, "Well the person obviously has no self or natural control and must use a smaller headed racquet because he doesn't have control! It isn't powerful, so the person obviously has no ability in controlling their power. So they must use a racquet to blah blah blah. They suck at tennis if they don't have self control and self control of power blah blah."

Then you go off on theory and saying other things.

A racquet has advantages and disadvantages. Obviously. But portraying the advantages as strictly disadavantages is wrong. Then using spin-doctoring to favor your own side.

Well, either I'm stupid or you don't write very well because I have no idea what your talking about above. :confused:

I don't recall saying ANY of the things above that you have in quotes. Call me crazy, but I don't think I ever said anything about anyone's ability to control their power. :confused: And I definitely never said that anyone must use a smaller headed racquet.

In fact, I've always advocated that people should use whatever they like and whatever works for them. I'm just telling it like it is from my own personal experience and observations over three decades of playing this game.
 

BreakPoint

Bionic Poster
ohplease said:
http://www.racquettech.com/top/tools_toc.html

They have calculators for both "twistweight" which you're thinking of in the hopes of not being wrong, and "recoil weight" - which is exactly what we're talking about.

Good try though. At least you're trying to edumacate yourself.

I guess you still don't understand. When it comes to absorption of shock and vibration, weight is weight. (Weight = mass x gravity). "Twistweight", "Recoil weight", etc., none of that stuff matters.

It's like if your girlfriend weighed 200 lbs, and you say, "but she's hot because her recoil weight is only 110 lbs". Do you think that really matters? ;) LOL.
 

ohplease

Professional
BreakPoint said:
I guess you still don't understand. When it comes to absorption of shock and vibration, weight is weight. (Weight = mass x gravity). "Twistweight", "Recoil weight", etc., none of that stuff matters.

Well let's see, do I listen to RacquetMAXX and the USRSA on the importance of recoil weight - organizations who do this for, you know, a living. Or some message board wacko who can't admit he was CLEARLY WRONG.

You decide.

Tell you what, breakpoint - if balance doesn't matter that much, how about we hit you on the head with both the handle end and the business end of a hammer. Then we measure the relative forces on both the hand holding the hammer and your head? I'm sure, as you claim, the numbers will be exactly the same.
 

BreakPoint

Bionic Poster
ohplease said:
Well let's see, do I listen to RacquetMAXX and the USRSA on the importance of recoil weight - organizations who do this for, you know, a living. Or some message board wacko who can't admit he was CLEARLY WRONG.

You decide.

Tell you what, breakpoint - if balance doesn't matter that much, how about we hit you on the head with both the handle end and the business end of a hammer. Then we measure the relative forces on both the hand holding the hammer and your head? I'm sure, as you claim, the numbers will be exactly the same.

OK, this is from the same link on the RacquetMaxx website you that provided:

"Shock (frame): Initial, high-amplitude oscillation (jarring) of the racquet during or immediately after ball contact. Often confused with frame vibration, frame shock is generally believed to contribute more to wrist, elbow and/or shoulder injuries than vibration. Generally, a smaller, stiffer, lighter racquet strung at high tension will produce more shock than a larger, flexible, lightweight frame strung loosely. Off-center hits also increase the amount of shock transmitted to the hand and arm. In fact, if you can hit the Center of Percussion (COP) area of the sweetspot each time, your shots will be shock-free. Certain handle systems (Dunlop ISIS & ShokBlok, Prince Cushion Grip) are effective in reducing shock before it reaches the hand. Additionally, Prince's Double Bridge and Pro Kennex's Kinetic System Technology are designed to absorb frame shock. After-market methods of reducing frame shock include adding weight to the frame, lowering string tension, using a thinner gauge string and increasing grip size (to a point) to reduce torque. String vibration dampers are ineffective at reducing or absorbing frame shock."

Where does it say anything about changing the "recoil weight" to reduce shock?
ohplease said:
Tell you what, breakpoint - if balance doesn't matter that much, how about we hit you on the head with both the handle end and the business end of a hammer. Then we measure the relative forces on both the hand holding the hammer and your head? I'm sure, as you claim, the numbers will be exactly the same.
Huh? Who's talking about forces? Only you are! BTW, the amount of shock and vibration dissipated by the hammer will be the same, since the weight of the hammer doesn't change.
ohplease said:
Or some message board wacko who can't admit he was CLEARLY WRONG.
I'm sorry but are you referring to yourself again? :rolleyes:

You know what? I'm getting pretty tired of arguing with someone who's obviously clueless and never passed high school physics.
 

BreakPoint

Bionic Poster
ohplease said:
Well let's see, do I listen to RacquetMAXX and the USRSA on the importance of recoil weight - organizations who do this for, you know, a living.

BTW, where on RacquetMaxx's website do they extol the "importance of recoil weight"? :confused: They merely provide a definition. That does not necessarily mean that they think it's of any importance, only that so if anyone brings up the term they can look it up and find out what it's referring to.

If "recoil weight" was so important (like, for example, swingweight and balance), why doesn't TW provide the recoil weight on all of their racquet specs? :confused:
 
i like to use 95 sq in but not too heavy maybe 11.5 oz... none of us arent fit to talk for other ppl and pros like we know... and the physics involved isnt high school level physics... thats really really really basic... and what you guys are talking about goes beyond high school physics... college level... lol its funny to watch people talk about stuff they try to act like they know about or talk for other ppl :p.

i dont see what the fuss is all about =s.
 

texcoug

Rookie
Wow. Do I want to be remembered as the one who started this thread?

I do have this observation for breakpoint: Where is the breaking point in you analysis? You never did answer my question. My point was that all the noise you were making about shock absorption and your physics lessons, what I wanted to know was the information on the relative advantage of a 12 oz frame v. 11 oz. I appreciate the you consistently re-posture the questions in a sort of black/white comparison (the dangers of a 9 oz frame). The analysis really isn't that helpful, however. Now, if you think that the 1 oz weight difference is statistically significant, that would be information that would be helpful.

Also, based on your analysis, at what point would it support use of a 13 oz frame? 14 oz? 15?
 

BreakPoint

Bionic Poster
texcoug said:
Wow. Do I want to be remembered as the one who started this thread?

I do have this observation for breakpoint: Where is the breaking point in you analysis? You never did answer my question. My point was that all the noise you were making about shock absorption and your physics lessons, what I wanted to know was the information on the relative advantage of a 12 oz frame v. 11 oz. I appreciate the you consistently re-posture the questions in a sort of black/white comparison (the dangers of a 9 oz frame). The analysis really isn't that helpful, however. Now, if you think that the 1 oz weight difference is statistically significant, that would be information that would be helpful.

Also, based on your analysis, at what point would it support use of a 13 oz frame? 14 oz? 15?

texcoug,
A 1 oz. difference in weight for a tennis racquet is very significant. If you play with a 11 oz. racquet and a 12 oz. racquet side-by-side, you should notice a significant difference in stability, control, shock and vibration, and sometimes even power.

In fact, many people notice the increase in stability from even a 0.1 oz. difference when they add lead tape to a racquet.
 

PM_

Professional
GrandSlam Legend said:
a 1 oz difference isnt significant or very significant... its negligible! BreakPoint is very wrong in his analysis.
lmfao do you have any idea what you're saying?
 
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