Real reason why I think Novak has not been dominant on US Open Courts

Elektra

Professional
I think there are multiple factors but I truly think the main contributing factor for Novak's lack of dominance.

I think Novak the past couple of years has built his best tennis and preparation around the beginning of the season to around French Open time because of his obsession to win that grandslam. The energy and pressure he puts on himself during that time makes him peak to early and he loses his drive around US Open series.

After Wimbledeon a lot of the players best tennis start to come around the US Open time which leaves Novak exhausted and somewhat drained from his early season chase.
 

ibbi

G.O.A.T.
I think if that were the case then he'd flame out pretty hardcore at Wimbledon. He had made Roland Garros a priority of his season every year since 2012, come up short every time, managed to recover for the grass without a warm up tournament, and then just drops off?

I think you're on to something saying that a lot of players best tennis start to come around the US Open. That's definitely true. Most of the guys out there are most comfortable on a hard court, so that makes sense. That makes the competition tougher at that time of year, and his lack of dominance more understandable.

I think the elements definitely play a factor too. I don't think it's any secret that he doesn't play his best when confronted with conditions that make him uncomfortable, nor that he is undefeated indoors since 2012.
 
D

Deleted member 688153

Guest
he is undefeated indoors since 2012.
That is such a BS statistic though.
Shanghai is very often played with the roof closed, and it was closed for the Djokovic-Federer SF last year.
Shanghai is indoor conditions with the roof closed.
A good example of why many of the stats in sport are just there for interest and are pretty useless in reality.
 
No. On Grass court he can move easier and less injuries even you fall. Fast hard court is the most dangerous court if you play defensive style
 

marc45

G.O.A.T.
some good points, but remember, while some guys do find their form there (last major of the year, they can give it their all), over the years I've seen guys already wiped out there before they start from the long season, or if they get to the second week then they sputter and can't take advantage

Novak is clearly saving energy, pacing himself....I know he'd like Cinci but we could be seeing the start of his majors are the main, and almost only thing that truly matters, part of his career...all the great players get there eventually
 

MichaelNadal

Bionic Poster
There's just guys that are better at enforcing their games on him on fast HC. Also, he can track more balls down at the AO.

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The_Order

G.O.A.T.
I've been saying this for a while now, on a slow HC, he's nearly unstoppable.

Speed the court up a bit and players can hit through his defensive skills.
 

Meles

Bionic Poster
I've been saying this for a while now, on a slow HC, he's nearly unstoppable.

Speed the court up a bit and players can hit through his defensive skills.
I've been saying this for a while now, on a slow HC, he's nearly unstoppable.

Speed the court up a bit and players can hit through his defensive skills.
This is why he is a weak favorite for US Open. The Real Slam and USO very interesting because of this. I'll be shocked if Wawrinka can touch him, but on paper despite lackluster US hardcourts Stan would be dangerous. Hopefully they both make it to Friday showdown.
 

Aretium

Hall of Fame
The US 2013 was a really poor performance against Rafa from Djok. It can just happen, nothing special there (also Rafa played really well). He also played a poor match against Kei last year. It is simple, Djok has played a few poor matches after 2011, fast HC are not a weakness for Djok.

He has beaten Fed there a few times at USO and always caused him problems even before 2011.
 

MichaelNadal

Bionic Poster
The US 2013 was a really poor performance against Rafa from Djok. It can just happen, nothing special there (also Rafa played really well). He also played a poor match against Kei last year. It is simple, Djok has played a few poor matches after 2011, fast HC are not a weakness for Djok.

He has beaten Fed there a few times at USO and always caused him problems even before 2011.

I think it's a bit disrespectful to say he didn't play well at the USO 2013 just because he didn't win. Nadal when he's confident can hang with Djokovic on fast HC. He wouldn't have been in the final if he was playing poorly, Nadal was on his GAME that summer. He's Novak's biggest rival after all, shouldn't be surprising. Hell, he went toe to toe with a VERY good Novak at the AO in 2012. It wasn't the best match of Ultron's life, no, but he wasn't playing poorly by any means. Nadal's FH was at it's deadly best.
 

BringBackSV

Hall of Fame
Novak played a bit nervously in the 1st set USO13 final but he played well in the 2nd and 3rd. By the 4th he clearly gave up but it's a big stretch to say he played poorly overall. Novak losing to Nishikori was not exactly poor form either. I think we should give Kei some credit for how he played instead of just making excuses for Novak.
 

Elektra

Professional
I think it's a bit disrespectful to say he didn't play well at the USO 2013 just because he didn't win. Nadal when he's confident can hang with Djokovic on fast HC. He wouldn't have been in the final if he was playing poorly, Nadal was on his GAME that summer. He's Novak's biggest rival after all, shouldn't be surprising. Hell, he went toe to toe with a VERY good Novak at the AO in 2012. It wasn't the best match of Ultron's life, no, but he wasn't playing poorly by any means. Nadal's FH was at it's deadly best.

I know Rafa in 2013 was unstoppable so the win was no surprise, he beat Novak to same year at the French Open.
 
It's the winning at Wimby and Rafa. That and Novak needs Fed to take out some of the danger men such as Wawrinka these days.
 

SublimeTennis

Professional
I think there are multiple factors but I truly think the main contributing factor for Novak's lack of dominance.

I think Novak the past couple of years has built his best tennis and preparation around the beginning of the season to around French Open time because of his obsession to win that grandslam. The energy and pressure he puts on himself during that time makes him peak to early and he loses his drive around US Open series.

After Wimbledeon a lot of the players best tennis start to come around the US Open time which leaves Novak exhausted and somewhat drained from his early season chase.

Good point, but that's what GS's are all about, meeting tough players every other day over and over. It's like Fed at this years Wimby, telling you watch it again, it's the best I've seen him play since his prime, MURRAY played off the charts incredible, like Mac said "Watching this match is like watching a highlight reel", then Fed I think froze in the final, I know people say Novak kept him from playing great but I don't buy that, Fed would get a shot to his forehand, nothing special and he'd hit it long or to the net, it's not hard to tell when a guy is playing bad.

Back to Novak, when he lost the final to Murray, he just got through with a BRUTAL five setter, you could see he was tired. I used to say "If Novak is wiped out tired pick Murray", but Murray really has upped his game.
 

zagor

Bionic Poster
I think it's a bit disrespectful to say he didn't play well at the USO 2013 just because he didn't win. Nadal when he's confident can hang with Djokovic on fast HC. He wouldn't have been in the final if he was playing poorly, Nadal was on his GAME that summer. He's Novak's biggest rival after all, shouldn't be surprising. Hell, he went toe to toe with a VERY good Novak at the AO in 2012. It wasn't the best match of Ultron's life, no, but he wasn't playing poorly by any means. Nadal's FH was at it's deadly best.

Same goes for Nadal in 2011 USO then, he was only 24-25 at the time and reached the final relatively easily (dispatched Murray in 4 IIRC).
 
Same goes for Nadal in 2011 USO then, he was only 24-25 at the time and reached the final relatively easily (dispatched Murray in 4 IIRC).

That is true. That just means though all 3 matches were atleast decent quality, and Nadal won 2 of the 3, despite that Djokovic generally has the upper hand on Nadal on hard courts almost anywhere else.

So Djokovic thus far is not as dominant on those faster outdoor decoturf type courts like the U.S Open and Cincinnati, as he anywhere else (indoor courts, both faster and slower, slower paced outdoor hard courts, etc...). Today indicated such a thing too. Hopefully that can change, but thus far it is is what it is.
 

West Coast Ace

G.O.A.T.
...and it was closed for the Djokovic-Federer SF last year.
Are you sure? I was there and only remember the F with Fed-Simon being closed roof.

It is the wind. Ashe is notorious for having swirling winds.

Definitely not buying the tired excuse. There's always a week off before the USO to recover from b2b M1000s. He's at the top or near in fitness of the top guys. He lost to Nishikori who was on fumes after all the 5 setters last year.
 

MichaelNadal

Bionic Poster
Same goes for Nadal in 2011 USO then, he was only 24-25 at the time and reached the final relatively easily (dispatched Murray in 4 IIRC).

Of course, he was outplayed, plain and simple lol. No money comes out of my bank account for Nadal playing well and getting defeated. I don't think anyone else would have beaten Nadal in that final and I've said that before.
 

The_Order

G.O.A.T.
Same goes for Nadal in 2011 USO then, he was only 24-25 at the time and reached the final relatively easily (dispatched Murray in 4 IIRC).

Yes we know Novak owned Nadal in 2011. 2012 they split wins in majors and Nadal owned him in 2013. 2014 Nadal won their only encounter at a major (ok Nadal lost early in WIM and didn't make it to Novak, but Novak lost early in AO...). 2015 Novak is having another great year along with 2011 in terms of results but not playing level imo.

The fact is Nadal has won 2/3 US Open finals against Novak. He has won Cinci and Novak hasn't. 3 Canada Masters wins each iinm, but with the US Open final victories, Nadal has the better fast HC record. Novak winning US Open this year won't change that either.
 

Silverbullet96

Hall of Fame
It's true that he prefers slower HCs over faster, but imo that's not the reason why he has fallen short at USO recently. I have an excuse for all 3 losses tbh:
2012 - Wind
2013 - Novak really wasn't at his mental best for a period of that year, even about Wimbledon 2013 he said that he just wasn't emotionally there.
2014 - Husbandovic.

Its just been bad luck. Tbh USO hasn't even been a fast court since 2011.
 

zagor

Bionic Poster
Yes we know Novak owned Nadal in 2011. 2012 they split wins in majors and Nadal owned him in 2013. 2014 Nadal won their only encounter at a major (ok Nadal lost early in WIM and didn't make it to Novak, but Novak lost early in AO...). 2015 Novak is having another great year along with 2011 in terms of results but not playing level imo.

Agree, he's serving better this year (though he was also serving very well in 2011 as well until summer HC when his shoulder started bothering him) but his speed around court, defense, returning and I'd say even ballstriking are not on the same level. He was destroying players left and right in 2011, this year too often he's merely scraping by.

The fact is Nadal has won 2/3 US Open finals against Novak. He has won Cinci and Novak hasn't. 3 Canada Masters wins each iinm, but with the US Open final victories, Nadal has the better fast HC record. Novak winning US Open this year won't change that either.

Yeah, Nadal also has bragging rights for doing a summer HC sweep (the only one besides Rafter and Roddick to have done it) which is definitely an amazing feat. They could still both add their numbers there obviously but for now yes, Nadal has the edge on fast outdoor HC while Novak is better on slow HC and indoors.
 
It's true that he prefers slower HCs over faster, but imo that's not the reason why he has fallen short at USO recently. I have an excuse for all 3 losses tbh:
2012 - Wind
2013 - Novak really wasn't at his mental best for a period of that year, even about Wimbledon 2013 he said that he just wasn't emotionally there.
2014 - Husbandovic.

Its just been bad luck. Tbh USO hasn't even been a fast court since 2011.

You sound like a Nadal or Federer fanboy with your stream of excuses. Djokovic just hasn't been as dominant thus far on fast outdoor U.S decoturf courts. Just accept it. I am a Djokovic fan and I have every confidence he can change that.

I mean if you wanted you could come up with an excuse for every RG loss except this year and say he is just as great on clay as plexicushion:

2009- Madrid final
2011- Heavy partisan crowd
2012- Grandpa
2013- Pascal
2014- Tummy ache

So see he really has 5 Roland Garros titles, not 0 right? It is the same logic.
 
I do agree the U.S Open courts aren't even truly fast anymore. Just as Wimbledon courts aren't even, nor WTF courts. They are just faster is all.
 

RanchDressing

Hall of Fame
This is why he is a weak favorite for US Open. The Real Slam and USO very interesting because of this. I'll be shocked if Wawrinka can touch him, but on paper despite lackluster US hardcourts Stan would be dangerous. Hopefully they both make it to Friday showdown.
What?
Wawrinka has such extreme grips. His favorite area is behind the baseline. That's why he can loose to gasquet on grass, and why he's struggled thus far in the tournament. On clay and AO moving back is an advantage as you can get the ball in your strike zone better, especially for him. On these lower bouncing courts it's a disadvantage. Yet moving back on the return is his most aggressive move (that's actually consistent and he does a lot). If he gets a good look at the ball yes he can get back on the baseline, but on paper his game doesn't suit a faster court at all. Federer for example eats gasquet for a snack because of how much closer he likes to stand on the baseline, and how gasquet likes to play his backhand. Fed did a post match interview breaking down what he did to gasquet a few years ago at the WTF.

You sound like a Nadal or Federer fanboy with your stream of excuses. Djokovic just hasn't been as dominant thus far on fast outdoor U.S decoturf courts. Just accept it. I am a Djokovic fan and I have every confidence he can change that.

I mean if you wanted you could come up with an excuse for every RG loss except this year and say he is just as great on clay as plexicushion:

2009- Madrid final
2011- Heavy partisan crowd
2012- Grandpa
2013- Pascal
2014- Tummy ache

So see he really has 5 Roland Garros titles, not 0 right? It is the same logic.

Djokovic won't become dominant on US hc swing because he plays high percentage tennis. He doesn't play as offensively and doesn't take nearly as many risks as he once did, or some of his competitors do. Especially on that backhand wing. Back in 2008 novak was hitting the down the line backhand as good as anyone. Now you RARELY see him going down the line on the backhand side. This doesn't mean he isn't capable of hitting that shot, but if he isn't using it regularly in matches it is going to be quite hard to pull it out in a big match or a big point. He's also added quite a bit of margin on his forehand, which means he isn't going to hit quite as many winners. But this is what allowed him to win more consistently; playing percentage tennis using his serve, speed, and court positioning to get him the shots he wants to hit.

I've said this before for federer, and who beat him in the past. It's always been guys who have a great down the line backhand. Novak was even one of those guys to use the DTL backhand to beat him. It breaks up patterns, and opens up the court. People don't believe it but the top guys really have unique movement patterns and predict where their opponent hits their shots. And this is founded upon the basics of tennis and percentages. When someone starts hitting big dtl backhands off a good shot of yours, you can choose to let them have that part of the court, and protect the high percentage shot, or give them the easier shot cross court. We saw this with Stan twice against novak now. We saw this with safin against fed. We saw this with novak against roger, nalbandian against roger, nishikori against novak... Over the course of a five set match this is incredibly difficult to do, but these guys have proven they're capable of doing it.

I feel like a lot of people on here base their analysis off who beats who and the score, and not what was actually done to win the important points. Winning big points is what wins matches on the highest level.
 

BeatlesFan

Bionic Poster
He has beaten Fed there a few times at USO and always caused him problems even before 2011.

Not quite accurate. Fed beat him comfortably in 2007 and 2008 and then straight-setted him in 2009. The first time Nole caused Fed problems was in 2010, when he finally bet him there.
 
Not quite accurate. Fed beat him comfortably in 2007 and 2008 and then straight-setted him in 2009. The first time Nole caused Fed problems was in 2010, when he finally bet him there.

This is not so. Djokovic had set points in both the 1st and 2nd sets of the 2007 final. That is definitely "giving problems". 2008 was a very close 4 set match at turned on a 7-5 3rd set.
 

The_Order

G.O.A.T.
It's true that he prefers slower HCs over faster, but imo that's not the reason why he has fallen short at USO recently. I have an excuse for all 3 losses tbh:
2012 - Wind
2013 - Novak really wasn't at his mental best for a period of that year, even about Wimbledon 2013 he said that he just wasn't emotionally there.
2014 - Husbandovic.

Its just been bad luck. Tbh USO hasn't even been a fast court since 2011.

What a crap post.

The wind was affecting Murray as well it doesn't just affect one player. Andy handled it better and deserved the win.

2013 he was having a very good season. He was dispatching top 10 opponents except Nadal was even more dominant. WIM13 he had a classic semi with Del Potro that went about 4 hours iirc, you don't come out on top of those types of matches when you're not "emotionally there".

2014 US Open can't be blamed on him getting married. It's his fault that he wasn't in his best form, not bad luck.

2011 wasn't fast. In fact it was slower than 2010 and 2012+. Big reason why I think he did so well there tbh. 2011 US Open was one of the slowest in recent memory, so you saying it hasn't been fast since 2011 is a load of hogwash.

Just thought I'd point out that you don't know what you're talking about...
 
Yeah saying he was mentally not there in 2013 really makes no sense. I mean it could be true to a degree, but if it were it would be completely his own fault. I could see saying for 2012, especialy his clay season, since his grandfather had just died. Now that would make sense. For 2013 there would be no built in excuse for mentally not being right.

I agree he didn't play his best in the 2013 final, but there is no built in excuse for why that was other than maybe his long semifinal with Stan to some degree. It just didn't happen. He was outplayed that day and lost.
 
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