Roger Federer as Religious Experience

TearTheRoofOff

G.O.A.T.
Again this isn't just a matter of preference. When someone like Wallace is being touted as one of the great writers/wordsmiths of our time it's not "elitism 101" to note there's more to great writing than a few clever turns of phrase or a gazillion references.
But you didn't actually note that, until now. Unless it's buried somewhere in your catalogue of self-reference material that I missed. I also figure that clever turns of phrase are primary exhibits of what I would call a 'wordsmith' in particular, but that's something of a semantic rabbit hole I guess.
 
DFW was a pretty standard genius driven mad by stupidity of the world figure and for his time it makes sense that would reflect as a lack of bigger picture focus.
 

Bartelby

Bionic Poster
Wallace's reflections about Federer are really playing with the categories of the beautiful and the sublime, and have nothing to do with religious experience.
 

Razer

Legend
It really is pitiful isn't it? Elevating an athlete who uses a stringed paddle to the Divine. Sad.

Can't blame DFW, at that time Federer was looking like a God. He was magnificent and when he beat his rivals to the pulp it looked like a divine experience touched by God. I guess the peak of his powers was 2004 US open final. Unfortunately today everything divine looks mortal and if DFW were alive to see this day then he would be an atheist.
 

Holmes

Hall of Fame
Can't blame DFW, at that time Federer was looking like a God. He was magnificent and when he beat his rivals to the pulp it looked like a divine experience touched by God. I guess the peak of his powers was 2004 US open final. Unfortunately today everything divine looks mortal and if DFW were alive to see this day then he would be an atheist.
I can. The Divine can never be seen or understood, only alluded to and experienced. Federer was nothing more than someone given gifts from the Divine, as all of us are, not a representation of It.
 

Federev

Legend
Can't blame DFW, at that time Federer was looking like a God. He was magnificent and when he beat his rivals to the pulp it looked like a divine experience touched by God. I guess the peak of his powers was 2004 US open final. Unfortunately today everything divine looks mortal and if DFW were alive to see this day then he would be an atheist.
The axe to grind on Fed’s legacy is very busy lately.

Funny how no one clamors for threads like this to be moved to the “Former Pro Players” section when it’s a good ‘ole Fed smackdown.

Hyperbolic metaphors notwithstanding, DFW saw the gift Federer had well before Roger was even sniffing at Sampras records. It had nothing to do with records. It had to do with the beauty and potency of his game.

Novak’s surpassing Fed with 30 more slams in his late 30s against the Tsitsipases of the world would do nothing to change what Wallace saw of Fed in his brilliant peak. It mesmerized fans like no one had since Borg, but more for the art of his game than the style of his hair.

It’s no accident Wallace didn’t write about Peter and he certaintly wouldn’t be writing about Novak, tremendously effective as they both were/ are.

Alcaraz - should he bloom - seems the closest thing we might get in the future.
 
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Holmes

Hall of Fame
Lol. Like a true Fed fan.

So - you’re the former “Herald” right…why did you change your name?
Of course. I don't want to see a thread about one of my favorite players get deleted because it's in the wrong section of the forum.

Do you?
 

Federev

Legend
Of course. I don't want to see a thread about one of my favorite players get deleted because it's in the wrong section of the forum.

Do you?
I’d be fine. It won’t make Federer’s game any less captivating compared to Samprovics.

But what about the name change question?
 

Holmes

Hall of Fame
I’d be fine. It won’t make Federer’s game any less captivating compared to Samprovics.

But what about the name change question?
Just your opinion. I find PETE's game captivating - as does Roger by the way.

Because I don't condescend to username squabbles. Perhaps one of your other friends on the forum can indulge.
 

Federev

Legend
Just your opinion. I find PETE's game captivating - as does Roger by the way.

Because I don't condescend to username squabbles. Perhaps one of your other friends on the forum can indulge.
Yup. He did like Sampras a lot. That’s probably what makes you such a big Fed fan. ;)
 

Federev

Legend
He writes that sport is the prime venue for the expression of HUMAN beauty.
Just some folks looking to have another reason to disparage Fed, I think.

I guess Roger losing the slam record really may not be enough?

Maybe Rolex was right after all.
 
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Federer is so amazing at tennis, one could say he was God-like at tennis. This divine payer was so good in fact, that despite being better than anyone who ever picked up a racket, he managed to finish third best out of the three tennis icons of his time. Truly astonishing achievement.
 

Federev

Legend
Federer is so amazing at tennis, one could say he was God-like at tennis. This divine payer was so good in fact, that despite being better than anyone who ever picked up a racket, he managed to finish third best out of the three tennis icons of his time. Truly astonishing achievement.
If only he could be 2nd best like Rafa.

Of course you’re missing the point - Deliberately or not - that Wallace wrote about Fed’s game long before the records, which has nothing to do with his article.

Still if a Rafa fan wants to pile on Fed on some old resurrected thread to bash him - it’s nice Fed fans can remember the old man still did far better than Rafa at 3 of the 4 slams and the WTF.
 

Bartelby

Bionic Poster
He does talk of "religious experience" and the "ecstatic" but there are lots of religions that are not monotheistic and there is ecstatic moments that exist outside of religion.

Created in the image of God and things of that nature. Realistically would need to see actual excerpt.
 

Razer

Legend
The axe to grind on Fed’s legacy is very busy lately.

Funny how no one clamors for threads like this to be moved to the “Former Pro Players” section when it’s a good ‘ole Fed smackdown.

Hyperbolic metaphors notwithstanding, DFW saw the gift Federer had well before Roger was even sniffing at Sampras records. It had nothing to do with records. It had to do with the beauty and potency of his game.

Novak’s surpassing Fed with 30 more slams in his late 30s against the Tsitsipases of the world would do nothing to change what Wallace saw of Fed in his brilliant peak. It mesmerized fans like no one had since Borg, but more for the art of his game than the style of his hair.

It’s no accident Wallace didn’t write about Peter and he certaintly wouldn’t be writing about Novak, tremendously effective as they both were/ are.

Alcaraz - should he bloom - seems the closest thing we might get in the future.

Many people who saw Fed's peak years (including me) and had feeling like Wallace at that time have now come to terms with reality, so no I wouldn't be so sure that if Wallace was alive today then he would still think in sync with his thought process 18 years ago. Nadal and Djokovic have changed the entire dynamics.
 

Federev

Legend
T
Many people who saw Fed's peak years (including me) and had feeling like Wallace at that time have now come to terms with reality, so no I wouldn't be so sure that if Wallace was alive today then he would still think in sync with his thought process 18 years ago. Nadal and Djokovic have changed the entire dynamics.
If you read Wallace you know that he wasn’t writing on rivalry H2H or records or longevity dynamics. He was writing on beauty in the game. He already appreciated - and wrote on - Nadal very much for his gladiatorial foil to Federer’s graceful potency. He was alive for some of Nadal’s very best years and saw him challenge and frustrate Federer plenty.

And there’s nothing really new in Novak’s game (which Wallace already saw) - as lethally effective as it is - that would have evoked - 17 years later - this kind of writing:


A top athlete’s beauty is next to impossible to describe directly. Or to evoke. Federer’s forehand is a great liquid whip, his backhand a one-hander that he can drive flat, load with topspin, or slice — the slice with such snap that the ball turns shapes in the air and skids on the grass to maybe ankle height. His serve has world-class pace and a degree of placement and variety no one else comes close to; the service motion is lithe and uneccentric, distinctive (on TV) only in a certain eel-like all-body snap at the moment of impact. His anticipation and court sense are otherworldly, and his footwork is the best in the game — as a child, he was also a soccer prodigy. All this is true, and yet none of it really explains anything or evokes the experience of watching this man play. Of witnessing, firsthand, the beauty and genius of his game. You more have to come at the aesthetic stuff obliquely, to talk around it, or — as Aquinas did with his own ineffable subject — to try to define it in terms of what it is not.

One thing it is not is televisable.”


As a Novak fan you can be satisfied with his record setting play over all and his concrete impassability and his rubber like flexibility and his mental fortitude. That should be plenty to mitigate against the need to harp on the foolishness of the old man’s glory days. At his best he had something Novak doesn’t. But Novak has the records.
 
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Razer

Legend
At his best he had something Novak doesn’t. But Novak has the records.

Yes Roger's game has an aristocratic elegance to it that Novak may never possess in this lifetime, Rafa's game has too much muscle and Novak is too robotic. If Tennis was a fashion industry and not a sport then Roger would instantly be the GOAT Supermodel and Novak/Rafa would be deemed unemployable. Thats what Rolex ad says as well. Instead of me stressing that sports is all about effectiveness and not who looks good, I will instead say that when our life has always been comfortable then we tend to appreciate hardwork less in life but when we suffer trials of life more and more then and only then we truly realise that style is secondary. It is like the boy a girl dates in college is sometimes different from the ones she marries later on. Or your buddies in college who are carefree and fun loving, that varies from the people you hang around later on in your life who are more career oriented. Or when you are a kid that is still studying and doesn't realize the value of money because his parents give him a lot, but when he starts earning is when he realizes the need to save. So when you struggle only then do you appreciate the struggles of others and value their ability to navigate out of it as a greater asset than natural ability/style. But 1 I think I do know is that regardless of one struggling/not, everyone likes a winner and nobody likes a loser. Even in Fed's stylish peak he had the records too backing him, those records also did add to his aura more much more than his style. So when his records broke a lot of that shine is gone. People realized that stylish strokeplay is only relevant if you have the lead, otherwise Richard Gasquet is quite classy in his own right but he shall never be a Federer, what separates his and Roger's backhand is 20 grand slams to 0. Since the records broke (before his retirement) the trance cast by the stylish strokeplay should also break IMO, if it doesn't then god bless those who are still under that trance.... :censored:
 

Federev

Legend
Yes Roger's game has an aristocratic elegance to it that Novak may never possess in this lifetime, Rafa's game has too much muscle and Novak is too robotic. If Tennis was a fashion industry and not a sport then Roger would instantly be the GOAT Supermodel and Novak/Rafa would be deemed unemployable. Thats what Rolex ad says as well. Instead of me stressing that sports is all about effectiveness and not who looks good, I will instead say that when our life has always been comfortable then we tend to appreciate hardwork less in life but when we suffer trials of life more and more then and only then we truly realise that style is secondary. It is like the boy a girl dates in college is sometimes different from the ones she marries later on. Or your buddies in college who are carefree and fun loving, that varies from the people you hang around later on in your life who are more career oriented. Or when you are a kid that is still studying and doesn't realize the value of money because his parents give him a lot, but when he starts earning is when he realizes the need to save. So when you struggle only then do you appreciate the struggles of others and value their ability to navigate out of it as a greater asset than natural ability/style. But 1 I think I do know is that regardless of one struggling/not, everyone likes a winner and nobody likes a loser. Even in Fed's stylish peak he had the records too backing him, those records also did add to his aura more much more than his style. So when his records broke a lot of that shine is gone. People realized that stylish strokeplay is only relevant if you have the lead, otherwise Richard Gasquet is quite classy in his own right but he shall never be a Federer, what separates his and Roger's backhand is 20 grand slams to 0. Once the records broke the trance cast by the stylish strokeplay should also break, if it doesn't then god bless those who are still in it..... :censored:

I enjoyed your writing

Fed worked hard. He had his immaturity and his arrogance - just like Novak had his own brand, but you don’t get to where any of these guys are over 2 decades without putting in the work. Just ask Kyrgios.

So it’s a false dichotomy to posit that Federer has style and Novak has hard work. Tennis is a hard and graceful game. They both have some of each.

But again, Wallace wasn’t writing about hard work or records - or against them. (And actually, in his “stylish peak” Fed did not have the records). He wasn’t even writing about “style” in the vain “supermodel” terms you use as a straw man caricature.

He was writing - agree with him or not - about transcendent beauty being expressed in an athlete’s form and movement. And absolutely - part of what was beautiful about Fed’s game was that it was dramatically potent in his peak - unlike Gasquet. But principally Wallace was citing the beauty even in that potency - and there is nothing wrong with that. It isn’t the superficial back seat value to hard work you seem to imply it is. It’s a different category. Indeed, hard work has a kind of transcendent beauty of its own.

So I’m not sure your thoughtful and well articulated points are really relevant to the article.

There is nothing wrong what what Wallace loved about Fed’s game. You might as well denigrate some article celebrating the joy the author gets from a well cooked Ribeye or a delicious wine or a beautiful sunset.

And I don’t think he was actually advocating “religious” approbation to Roger Federer as some god. He was using hyperbolic metaphor to convey what he saw that very likely is (wether Wallace knew it or not) a unique attestation to God’s glory in Federer’s game that is actually in any of God’s gifts given in one way or another to all of His creatures, including Novak and you and me and the clouds and the sea, etc: some element of transcendent beauty. In Federer, Wallace saw it in Roger’s athletic and potent elegance.

What I don’t get is the repeated objection and even moral judgment against this old famous piece of sports literature so long after. To be honest it strikes me as simply a latent salty sense of feeling wronged by Federer’s popularity by Sampovic fans. At least on this thread. Of course that’s TTW.

But think about it for a moment and see if you can’t see the forest for the trees: A Pulitzer Prize nominated literary genius was captivated by Rogers Federer’s game in his peak years. He wrote a well-received article about his joy in what he saw.

Sure, Novak (or Peter) doesn’t really get that kind of response and never likely will - in that particular way - as you stated.

So what.

All Federer has left is the 20 slams, consecutive weeks, some other great records - and the legacy of his wonderful game. Novak has the most important records now. And he’s amazing in his own for all kinds of other reasons. (Like I mentioned before).

Instead of his and Peter’s fans putting Fed down on this resurrected article in a thread that shouldn’t even be in this forum, why not just celebrate Novak and Peter for their many unique attributes?

Especially since Novak has a credible claim to GOATness in terms of records that Fed doesn’t, I would really think that would be enough.

Unless of course, Rolex was right.
 
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randomtoss

Semi-Pro
I enjoyed your writing

Fed worked hard. He had his immaturity and his arrogance - just like Novak had his own brand, but you don’t get to where any of these guys are over 2 decades without putting in the work. Just ask Kyrgios.

So it’s a false dichotomy to posit that Federer has style and Novak has hard work. Tennis is a hard and graceful game. They both have some of each.

But again, Wallace wasn’t writing about hard work or records - or against them. (And actually, in his “stylish peak” Fed did not have the records). He wasn’t even writing about “style” in the vain “supermodel” terms you use as a straw man caricature.

He was writing - agree with him or not - about transcendent beauty being expressed in an athlete’s form and movement. And absolutely - part of what was beautiful about Fed’s game was that it was dramatically potent in his peak - unlike Gasquet. But principally Wallace was citing the beauty even in that potency - and there is nothing wrong with that. It isn’t the superficial back seat value to hard work you seem to imply it is. It’s a different category. (Indeed, hard work has a kind of transcendent beauty of its own).

So I’m not sure your thoughtful and well articulated points are really relevant to the article.

There is nothing wrong what what Wallace loved about Fed’s game. You might as well denigrate some article celebrating the joy the author gets from a well cooked Ribeye or a delicious wine or a beautiful sunset.

And I don’t think he was actually advocating “religious” approbation to Roger Federer as some god. He was using hyperbolic metaphor to convey what he saw that very likely is (wether Wallace knew it or not) a unique attestation to God’s glory in Federer’s game that is actually in any of God’s gifts given in one way or another to all of His creatures, including Novak and you and me and the clouds and the sea, etc: some element of transcendent beauty. In Federer, Wallace saw it in Roger’s athletic and potent elegance.

What I don’t get is the repeated objection and even moral judgment against this old famous piece of sports literature so long after. To be honest it strikes me as simply a latent salty sense of feeling wronged by Federer’s popularity by Sampovic fans. At least on this thread. Of course that’s TTW.

But think about it for a moment and see if you can’t see the forest for the trees: A Pulitzer Prize nominated literary genius was captivated by Rogers Federer’s game in his peak years. He wrote a well-received article about his joy in what he saw.

Novak (or Peter) doesn’t really get that kind of response and they never likely will - in that particular way - as you stated.

So what.

All Federer has left is the 20 slams, consecutive weeks, some other great records - and the legacy of his wonderful game. Novak has the most important records now. And he’s amazing in his own for all kinds of other reasons. (Like I mentioned before).

Instead of his and Peter’s fans putting Fed down on this resurrected article in a thread that shouldn’t even be in this forum, why not just celebrate Novak and Peter for their many unique attributes?

Especially since Novak has a credible claim to GOATness in terms of records that Fed doesn’t, I would really think that would be enough.

Unless of course, Rolex was right.
Mauds,, please frame this poast and hang it on the wall of TTW's grand hall.
 
Yes Roger's game has an aristocratic elegance to it that Novak may never possess in this lifetime, Rafa's game has too much muscle and Novak is too robotic. If Tennis was a fashion industry and not a sport then Roger would instantly be the GOAT Supermodel and Novak/Rafa would be deemed unemployable. Thats what Rolex ad says as well. Instead of me stressing that sports is all about effectiveness and not who looks good, I will instead say that when our life has always been comfortable then we tend to appreciate hardwork less in life but when we suffer trials of life more and more then and only then we truly realise that style is secondary. It is like the boy a girl dates in college is sometimes different from the ones she marries later on. Or your buddies in college who are carefree and fun loving, that varies from the people you hang around later on in your life who are more career oriented. Or when you are a kid that is still studying and doesn't realize the value of money because his parents give him a lot, but when he starts earning is when he realizes the need to save. So when you struggle only then do you appreciate the struggles of others and value their ability to navigate out of it as a greater asset than natural ability/style. But 1 I think I do know is that regardless of one struggling/not, everyone likes a winner and nobody likes a loser. Even in Fed's stylish peak he had the records too backing him, those records also did add to his aura more much more than his style. So when his records broke a lot of that shine is gone. People realized that stylish strokeplay is only relevant if you have the lead, otherwise Richard Gasquet is quite classy in his own right but he shall never be a Federer, what separates his and Roger's backhand is 20 grand slams to 0. Since the records broke (before his retirement) the trance cast by the stylish strokeplay should also break IMO, if it doesn't then god bless those who are still under that trance.... :censored:
Roger having the weakest mental of the three doesn't take away from his playstyle really.
 
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