Seles would have been the greatest ever without the stabbing.

Steffi-forever

Hall of Fame
Graf isn't the universally accepted GOAT anymore than Rod Laver is the universally accepted GOAT, I mean, Pete Sampras, no, oops, I mean Roger Federer is the "universally accepted GOAT."

Honestly, I thought Martina Navratilova got more support around here anyways...not sure though...I may have to start a poll...:)

P.S. I think Tennis magazine picked Martina over Graf...not saying I agree or disagree, but you're really pushing hard for your girl, but I'm not sure things are as clear-cut as you make them out to be...

http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=300707

http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=257723
 

LDVTennis

Professional
Considering that Seles' was 18 when she was stabbed, realistically, she never reached her peak because it was stolen from her. Considering that she was #1 and in the ascent of her development when stabbed, in all likelihood she would have been the top player in the world for the majority of the remainder of Graf's career.

Considering that Graf was only in her early 20's and in a slump when Seles became the No. 1 player, realistically speaking, Graf had yet to reach her peak.

Furthermore, in view of the fact that Steffi was one of the best athletes to ever play the game and one of the most complete players, with the ability to play an all-court game, in all likelihood Graf would have regained the No. 1 ranking from Seles, even without the stabbing, and been the No. 1 player in the world for the remainder of Seles' career.

Stabbing or not, Seles was playing on borrowed time.
 

Chopin

Hall of Fame
Universally accepted GOAT is a term that always struck me as odd. Sure there are great players with tremendous records that can be qualified to be in the running when you discuss the best players ever but universally accepted it is a bad term.

The reason why I write that is that it seems to me that the current best player, if he or she has had a few good years is often called the universally accepted GOAT or at least words to that effect. The current player so often seems to be call the GOAT and it may be true but I would tend to think that usually it is not true if you go by accomplishments. People and experts get exciting when they see an exceptional match or matches and emotionally think, "Wow, this person has to be the greatest."

I've seen it with Laver, Connors, Borg, McEnroe, Sampras, Federer and now if Nadal has a couple of more good years they will say it about Nadal. Some are already calling Nadal the GOAT which I think is very premature. In the past it was Tilden, Budge, Kramer, Gonzalez, Vines, Perry, Cochet, HL Doherty.

My point is that how can a person be called the GOAT every other year. To be honest some of the so called GOAT candidates are very lacking in one important area---accomplishments. What they had at the moment was that people saw them in that moment and people remember what they have seen last so many would think, this person has to be the GOAT. They were impressive at that moment.

With the Women's side, players that have been called GOATs have been in the Open Era alone, Court, King, Evert, Navratilova, Graf, Seles, Serena Williams. That's a lot of so called GOATs.

Great post, PC1. Anyone who really knows me around here knows that I've long since given up on the idea of a definitive "GOAT." It's just something people like to talk about for fun.

I'd rather look at accomplishments and compare them within an era these days.
 

Joe Pike

Banned
Graf isn't the universally accepted GOAT anymore than Rod Laver is the universally accepted GOAT, I mean, Pete Sampras, no, oops, I mean Roger Federer is the "universally accepted GOAT."

Honestly, I thought Martina Navratilova got more support around here anyways...not sure though...I may have to start a poll...:)

P.S. I think Tennis magazine picked Martina over Graf...not saying I agree or disagree, but you're really pushing hard for your girl, but I'm not sure things are as clear-cut as you make them out to be...


U.S. Tennis Magazine? Wow, who would have thought that ...

Now I'll tell you secret - Steffi was named GOAT in the German "Tennis Magazine" AND in (German) Tennis Revue!

BTW, I suppose that Steffi would win a poll EVEN in TennisWarehouse, where the majority of posters is US-American. In a European-only poll she would get about 80 % at least. Same in Asia. In Australia Court would win most probably.
 

Joe Pike

Banned
Considering that Seles' was 18 when she was stabbed, realistically, she never reached her peak because it was stolen from her. Considering that she was #1 and in the ascent of her development when stabbed, in all likelihood she would have been the top player in the world for the majority of the remainder of Graf's career.


Seles was not 18 when she was stabbed, she had reached her peak already and was not ascending anymore.
 

Chopin

Hall of Fame
U.S. Tennis Magazine? Wow, who would have thought that ...

Now I'll tell you secret - Steffi was named GOAT in the German "Tennis Magazine" AND in (German) Tennis Revue!

BTW, I suppose that Steffi would win a poll EVEN in TennisWarehouse, where the majority of posters is US-American. In a European-only poll she would get about 80 % at least. Same in Asia. In Australia Court would win most probably.

God, it's not like Federer, Laver, & Borg never get respect from the American tennis world...
 
Plenty of very knowledgeable Americans have chosen Graf over Navratilova - Billie Jean King has said repeatedly Graf is the greatest singles player in her opinion (see recent interview in Inside Tennis for repeat of that) and Chris Evert said at a 50 year Hall of Fame dinner gala that Graf is the best singles player. They seem very well informed....
 

LDVTennis

Professional
Seles was not 18 when she was stabbed, she had reached her peak already and was not ascending anymore.

Yeah, Seles was 19. She would have been 20 in December of 1993.

Selestial thought would like to make us believe that at 19 Seles was suddenly going to become the type of athlete and player that would reverse a 2 and 1 thrashing at Wimbledon and a losing head to head record versus the No. 2 player (when Seles was No. 1).

The truth is that Seles hardly had enough game at 19 to beat players like all-time-not-so-great Kijimuta at the French Open.
 

Limpinhitter

G.O.A.T.
Yeah, Seles was 19. She would have been 20 in December of 1993.

Selestial thought would like to make us believe that at 19 Seles was suddenly going to become the type of athlete and player that would reverse a 2 and 1 thrashing at Wimbledon and a losing head to head record versus the No. 2 player (when Seles was No. 1).

The truth is that Seles hardly had enough game at 19 to beat players like all-time-not-so-great Kijimuta at the French Open.

When Seles was stabbed by Schteffi's obsessed fan, she had been #1 for 2 years, she was the 3 time French Open champion, the 3 time Australian open champion, the 2 time U.S. Open champion, and had beaten Schteffi in 3 of 4 major finals. And, she was still a kid!
 
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Chopin

Hall of Fame
Yeah, Seles was 19. She would have been 20 in December of 1993.

Selestial thought would like to make us believe that at 19 Seles was suddenly going to become the type of athlete and player that would reverse a 2 and 1 thrashing at Wimbledon and a losing head to head record versus the No. 2 player (when Seles was No. 1).

The truth is that Seles hardly had enough game at 19 to beat players like all-time-not-so-great Kijimuta at the French Open.

Yes, but she had enough game to beat Graf there...
 

Chopin

Hall of Fame
When Seles was stabbed by Schteffi's obsessed fan, she had been #1 for 2 years, she was the 3 time French Open champion, the 3 time Australian open champion, the 2 time U.S. Open champion, and had beaten Schteffi in 3 of 4 major finals. And, she was still a kid!

Limpin, don't waste your time with these clowns.
 

Joe Pike

Banned
When Seles was stabbed by Schteffi's obsessed fan, she had been #1 for 2 years, she was the 3 time French Open champion, the 3 time Australian open champion, the 2 time U.S. Open champion, and had beaten Schteffi in 3 of 4 major finals. And, she was still a kid!


Selesch ... ?
 

Raiden

Hall of Fame
Considering that Seles' was 18 when she was stabbed, realistically, she never reached her peak because it was stolen from her. Considering that she was #1 and in the ascent of her development when stabbed, in all likelihood she would have been the top player in the world for the majority of the remainder of Graf's career.
Rrright :rolleyes:

Considering that Steffi was #1 and in the ascent of her development when the Graf family blackmail scandal triggered that slump, in all likelihood she would have been the top player in the world for the majority of the remainder of Seles' career... oh wait (she ended up being that anyway!)
 

Raiden

Hall of Fame
I agree that Graf is a goat! Thank God she shaves her beard!

But, your premise is ridiculous! How many American's on TT think that Federer (a Swiss of German descent), is the GOAT? Most of them!

... That would be like Ralph getting stabbed in the back last year and Federer winning the championships that Ralph won. I know it's not Graf's fault, but, it's her legacy.
So it's not her fault AND it's her fault at the same time :rolleyes:

That is always where it comes down to. Selestards are by default inane and incongruous. Their arguments are absurd by default cuz ultimately they all blame a 100% innocent person of an attempted murder, which is ludicrous to say the least.

Graf's achievements after 92' will always be marked with the big *
No, she's 100% innocent so there is no asterisk. An asterisk is put on players who cheated their way to victory, originaly applied for those who used performance enhancing drugs but you can use it to anyone who cheats in order to win, like for example (according to Navratilova) squealing, screaming banshees that willfully attempt to disrupt and distract their opponents!
.
 
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LDVTennis

Professional
Yes, but she had enough game to beat Graf there...

So what?

Not as if Steffi didn't beat her at the French too. She defeated Monica the last time they played there.

You know, in 1999, when by chronological age, Monica should have been ascendant.
 

Limpinhitter

G.O.A.T.
So it's not her fault AND it's her fault at the same time :rolleyes:

That is always where it comes down to. Selestards are by default inane and incongruous. Their arguments are absurd by default cuz ultimately they all blame a 100% innocent person of an attempted murder, which is ludicrous to say the least.

No, she's 100% innocent so there is no asterisk. An asterisk is put on players who cheated their way to victory, originaly applied for those who used performance enhancing drugs but you can use it to anyone who cheats in order to win, like for example (according to Navratilova) squealing, screaming banshees that willfully attempt to disrupt and distract their opponents!
.

Let's see . . . English isn't YOUR first language, either! Or perhaps rudimental rationality is your weakness! Or, perhaps you are just a liar, employing false premises and strawmen to argue against when you have nothing to rebut my argument with!
 
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Joe Pike

Banned
Rrright :rolleyes:

Considering that Steffi was #1 and in the ascent of her development when the Graf family blackmail scandal triggered that slump, in all likelihood she would have been the top player in the world for the majority of the remainder of Seles' career... oh wait (she ended up being that anyway!)


Great post!
 

Chopin

Hall of Fame
So what?

Not as if Steffi didn't beat her at the French too. She defeated Monica the last time they played there.

You know, in 1999, when by chronological age, Monica should have been ascendant.

You're all about promoting your girl. That's it. You're a fanboy. You lost me when you structured a sentence around Monica "barely having enough game."
 

SoftTen

Banned
Let's see . . . English isn't YOUR first language, either! Or perhaps rudimental rationality is your weakness! Or, perhaps you are just a liar, employing false premises and strawmen to argue against when you have nothing to rebut my argument with!

Hey there, Why did you insult peoples' languages? out of your mind, huh?
 
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NadalAgassi

Guest
Seles and Sanchez Vicario always had hardfought toe-to-toe matches, even though Seles would usually win them. Watching their matches, even matches where Seles won with one-sided scores were very competitive. 20-3 sounds like total ownage, but it was a tough rivalry.

I dont know why you try to build Sanchez Vicario up as if she is some really great player. She isnt, she was just the lapdog for both Graf and Seles over the years. Her so called rivalry with Graf is an overhyped joke especialy, it was never a rivalry. Graf always beat her in major events, and they rarely had memorable matches.

Sanchez Vicario even has something like a 2-18 head to head with Hingis which is a true embarassment considering Hingis only has 1 more slam title than Sanchez. Heck people like Pierce, Sabatini, and Novotna with only 1 or 2 slam titles have winning records vs Sanchez.

Her career is basically a fluke, even more than Grafs. Had Seles not been stabbed Sanchez Vicario would have been lucky to end her career with even 2 slams (she had 1 at the time of the stabbing). Her most impressive slam title was the 89 French when she beat Graf at her peak in a huge upset. The 94 French Pierce was by far the player of the tournament and without the rain delay would have destroyed Sanchez in the final. The 98 French was too lucky to even begin. And the 94 U.S Open she was gifted by all the fast court hitters (Graf, Novotna, Pierce) in the other side, and Grafs back injury in the final when Graf was destroying her before her back gave out.

Sabatini is even a better player probably but was unlucky to peak while Graf, Seles, and Navratilova ruled the womens game. Sanchez peaked during a soft spell when Graf was injured alot, Seles was out, Sabatini was on decline, Capriati was out of the game with drugs, Mary Joe Fernandez hardly played with injuries, and Navratilova was retiring. Her only competition was Graf, Martinez, Pierce, and Novotna. Martinez was mediocre and Pierce and Novotna were inconsistent as heck so basically she was clearly the 2nd best left until Hingis and the up and comers kicked her out of the games elite starting in 97.
 
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Joe Pike

Banned
I dont know why you try to build Sanchez Vicario up as if she is some really great player. She isnt, she was just the lapdog for both Graf and Seles over the years. Her so called rivalry with Graf is an overhyped joke especialy, it was never a rivalry. Graf always beat her in major events, and they rarely had memorable matches.

Sanchez Vicario even has something like a 2-18 head to head with Hingis which is a true embarassment ...


Sanchez is 2-5 in slam finals vs. Graf and 1-1 vs. Seles. Not too shabby.

BTW, Seles is 5-15 H2H vs. Hingis which is an embarrassment as Seles has won 4 slams more than Hingis. Graf is 7-2 vs. Hingis.
 
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NadalAgassi

Guest
Sanchez is 2-5 in slam finals vs. Graf and 1-1 vs. Seles. Not too shabby.

BTW, Seles is 5-15 H2H vs. Hingis which is an embarrassment as Seles has won 4 slams more than Hingis. Graf is 7-2 vs. Hingis.

2-5 in slam finals is not a big rivalry so Sanchez does not deserve the praise she gets for her rivalry for Graf as it is not a good rivalry. And her U.S Open final win over Graf was just luck as Graf was killing her before her back injury so she doesnt even really get credit for that one. And she is the lapdog of Seles with a pathetic 3-17 or something record, she is just lucky they barely played any slam finals and she managed a fluke win in one of them.

Hingis was at her peak and Seles past her prime when they played one another.
 

Joe Pike

Banned
2-5 in slam finals is not a big rivalry so Sanchez does not deserve the praise she gets for her rivalry for Graf as it is not a good rivalry. ...


If we discount Seles's FO 90 final win against Steffi (which we must as Steffi was clearly distracted due to the blackmail scandal that erupted just 3 weeks before) then Navratilova, Sanchez and Seles each have two slam final wins against Steffi.
Not too bad for Arantxa.
 
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NadalAgassi

Guest
If we discount Seles's FO 90 final win against Steffi (which we must as Steffi was clearly distracted due to the blackmail scandal that erupted just 3 weeks before) then Navratilova, Sanchez and Seles each have two slam final wins against Steffi.
Not too bad for Arantxa.

If you want to look at it that way then you must discount the US Open final in 94 since Graf was killing Sanchez before her back went out. Sanchez did not earn that one, she lucked out. And lord knows I am not a Graf fan so would not go out of my way to make excuses for her losing.

And how do you explain her pathetic head to heads with Seles and Hingis. I think it shows a lack of ability, especialy for a 4 slam winner.
 

Joe Pike

Banned
If you want to look at it that way then you must discount the US Open final in 94 since Graf was killing Sanchez before her back went out. Sanchez did not earn that one, she lucked out. And lord knows I am not a Graf fan so would not go out of my way to make excuses for her losing.

And how do you explain her pathetic head to heads with Seles and Hingis. I think it shows a lack of ability, especialy for a 4 slam winner.


Seles was 5-10 vs. Graf and 5-15 vs. Hingis.
That is 10-25 combined against the two best players of the 90s. Not good!
 
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NadalAgassi

Guest
Seles was 5-10 vs. Graf and 5-15 vs. Hingis.
That is 10-25 combined against the two best players of the 90s. Not good!

I am not talking about Seles but about Sanchez Vicario. And are you calling Hingis a better player than Seles. What a joke if you are.
 
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NadalAgassi

Guest
Hingis leads Seles 15-5 ...

Yeah that is bad but as I already said they played at Hingis peak and when Seles was already past her prime. It would be like putting the 2002 and 2006-2007 Hingis against the Seles of 1990-1993 in which case Hingis would get killed.

Seles has 9 slams even with the stabbing. Hingis has 5. Seles has two straight years winning 3 slams. Hingis has only one year with multiple slams and has only won multiple slams at 1 of the slam venues. Hingis is not even close to Seles.
 

hoodjem

G.O.A.T.
Yeah that is bad but as I already said they played at Hingis peak and when Seles was already past her prime. It would be like putting the 2002 and 2006-2007 Hingis against the Seles of 1990-1993 in which case Hingis would get killed.

Seles has 9 slams even with the stabbing. Hingis has 5. Seles has two straight years winning 3 slams. Hingis has only one year with multiple slams and has only won multiple slams at 1 of the slam venues. Hingis is not even close to Seles.
But haven't you heard?

Any newer, more recent player is always stronger and better than any older, past player.



:wink:
 
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NadalAgassi

Guest
But haven't you heard?

Any newer, more recent player is always stronger and better than any older, past player.



:wink:

Sadly that seems to be the attitude of alot of people. I dont know what the fixation especialy in North America of crowning the current best as the greatest ever no matter what is. If the current is truly the greatest ever like Michael Phelps in swimming it is incredible of course, and a privilege to watch them perform. However if the current best isnt the best ever they are still the best in the World today and that should be enough to satisfy fans and make it worth enjoying them. Apparently not enough for many though determined to build up questionable or even outright false claims on the current best to be the greatest ever.
 

pc1

G.O.A.T.
But haven't you heard?

Any newer, more recent player is always stronger and better than any older, past player.



:wink:

Like I've written before I guess Nolan Ryan from the 1960's couldn't throw more than 70 mph using that logic. Every pitcher today throws harder than him. :roll:

Bottom line is we really cannot be certain. Improvements in one area may be negatives in another.

Seles was obviously a great player for a while. I don't think anyone with any common sense would deny that. Would Seles have been the greatest, probably not because the odds of anyone ever being the greatest in a major sport is a long shot.

For obvious reasons this thread is a Seles versus Graf thread and it really shouldn't be. I do think Seles would have gone on to a much better career without the injury. We missed out on a lot of potential great Seles versus Graf battles and Seles versus Sabatini or Sanchez-Vicario.
 

Carolina Racquet

Professional
Would of, could of, should of...

I don't buy the OP's argument as it's merely an opinion.

It's just different than mine (and most from what I've read).
 
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NadalAgassi

Guest
For obvious reasons this thread is a Seles versus Graf thread and it really shouldn't be. I do think Seles would have gone on to a much better career without the injury. We missed out on a lot of potential great Seles versus Graf battles and Seles versus Sabatini or Sanchez-Vicario.

Womens tennis was at its peak from 1990-1993 until around the Seles stabbing. The womens field was insanely competitive at the top even though Seles playing arguably the best tennis ever seen yet by a women won nearly everything. Graf was still at her best despite being relegated to #2 by Seles, Sabatini was playing her best tennis ever and would have won alot more slams playing at nearly any other time, Navatilova was a bit past her prime but still playing at an incredible level at an advanced age, Sanchez Vicario was coming into her own, Capriati was a young sensation, Fernandez was playing her best tennis ever and came close to her elusivise slam a number of times. Around the time of the stabbing it all fell apart from most of these ladies and left only Graf and Sanchez Vicario until Hingis and Davenport came along.
 

struggle

Legend
relatively, martina hingis shouldn't even be in this argument.

yes, she may have beaten some of the greats, but she herself
was not great. good timing on her part, i'd say.

not trying to knock hingis, but please.....let's not enter her
name into any arguments of greatness. she was good.
 

Joe Pike

Banned
Womens tennis was at its peak from 1990-1993 until around the Seles stabbing. ...

That is the dumbest thing you ever wrote.

Navratilova went down after her 70-3 win/loss streak that ended in March 1990 (her 3 losses were against Steffi).
Graf went down when the Blackmail Scandal struck in May 1990 and threw her family in turmoil.

So the two greatest players of all time - Navratilova and Graf - went down simultaneously from the first half of 1990 on and you suggest that the next 2 or 3 years were the best ever???:shock::shock::shock:
 

Joe Pike

Banned
Womens tennis was at its peak from 1990-1993 until around the Seles stabbing. The womens field was insanely competitive at the top even though Seles playing arguably the best tennis ever seen yet by a women won nearly everything. ...

Apparently you never saw what Steffi did to Navratilova in the 1988 Wimbledon final. Or to Seles in the 1992 Wimbledon final. Or to Zvereva in the 1988 FO final. Or to Navratilova and Evert in Key Biscayne 1987.
 
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NadalAgassi

Guest
That is the dumbest thing you ever wrote.

Navratilova went down after her 70-3 win/loss streak that ended in March 1990 (her 3 losses were against Steffi).
Graf went down when the Blackmail Scandal struck in May 1990 and threw her family in turmoil.

So the two greatest players of all time - Navratilova and Graf - went down simultaneously from the first half of 1990 on and you suggest that the next 2 or 3 years were the best ever???:shock::shock::shock:

The real two greatest players ever are Margaret Court and Chris Evert, not Graf and Navratilova. Graf and Navratilova are the two most consider the greatest ever but both are overrated. Overall Court's singles and doubles record eclipses Martina's, while Chris's overall singles record considering all facets eclipses everyone.

Seles, Serena, and Connolly at their best also play the game at a higher level than Graf or Navratilova ever did but due to unfortunate circumstances each faced none did it for a long enough time period.

I know you have your excuses for Graf you will never budge on so I wont debate her. Navratilova though began going down because Seles came into her, Sabatini improved, Sanchez matured, Capriati emerged. During her period of 70-3 her only real competition was Graf, but suddenly there were all these players who were a threat to her. After all it couldnt be age, she was already very old for tennis during that period she went 70-3.
 
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NadalAgassi

Guest
Apparently you never saw what Steffi did to Navratilova in the 1988 Wimbledon final. Or to Seles in the 1992 Wimbledon final. Or to Zvereva in the 1988 FO final. Or to Navratilova and Evert in Key Biscayne 1987.

Navratilova 1988 Wimbledon- 31 year old women, and Graf still lost the first set and was down a break in the 2nd.

Seles 1992 Wimbledon- Unfortunately Seles always sort of sucked on grass.

Zvereva 1988 Wimbledon- some doubles great/singles hacker who would never make another slam final in single. A joke slam final opponent, no surprise she mauled her.

Navratilova and Evert 87 Key Biscayne- Again 30 and 32 year old women. You know the same age Graf had retired from tennis already by since she was so far past her prime that she had been losing to Halard, Sugiyama, and Serna in her last year.
 

John_Doe

Rookie
The real two greatest players ever are Margaret Court and Chris Evert, not Graf and Navratilova. Graf and Navratilova are the two most consider the greatest ever but both are overrated. Overall Court's singles and doubles record eclipses Martina's, while Chris's overall singles record considering all facets eclipses everyone.

Seles, Serena, and Connolly at their best also play the game at a higher level than Graf or Navratilova ever did but due to unfortunate circumstances each faced none did it for a long enough time period.

I know you have your excuses for Graf you will never budge on so I wont debate her. Navratilova though began going down because Seles came into her, Sabatini improved, Sanchez matured, Capriati emerged. During her period of 70-3 her only real competition was Graf, but suddenly there were all these players who were a threat to her. After all it couldnt be age, she was already very old for tennis during that period she went 70-3.

You know who else is pretty overrated? Monica Seles, if she was so great, why couldn't she win every tournament she played in? She woulda, coulda, shoulda had a record of eleventy billion wins to zero losses.
 

Joe Pike

Banned
... Navratilova though began going down because Seles came into her, Sabatini improved, Sanchez matured, Capriati emerged. During her period of 70-3 her only real competition was Graf, but suddenly there were all these players who were a threat to her. After all it couldnt be age, she was already very old for tennis during that period she went 70-3.

1) Sabatini didn't improve in 90-92 compared to 87-89.
She had a 81.3 winning percentage in 87-89 and 82.6 in 90-92. But she profited a lot from many matches she won against a slumping Graf to whom she lost many matches esp. in 87. If we take away the Graf matches Sabatini had a winning percentage of 86.8 in 87-89 but only of 83.6 in 90-92.

2) Sanchez was not better in 90-92 than in 89.
She won only 5 tournaments in 90-92 but would peak later in 93-95 (15 tournament wins). She had a winning percentage of 78.5 in 89 and of 78.1 in 90-92.

3) Capriati won only 5 tournaments in 90-92 and was never among the top 5.

4) Navratilova was 3 years older in 90-92 than in 87-89.

5) Graf was slumping badly in 90-92 compared to 87-89.

Martinez, Pierce and Novotna would reached their primes only in the mid-90s.

Sorry, those are the facts.
And facts beat Selesian gut feelings any day ...
 

Joe Pike

Banned
Navratilova 1988 Wimbledon- 31 year old women, and Graf still lost the first set and was down a break in the 2nd. ...

Navratilova - who beat #1 Seles four times in 1991-93. The last time as a 36-year-old Grandma in 93. And not even on grass ...

Almost 5 years after her loss on grass against Steffi when she was broken in 7 service games in a row.

Sheds some light on how we have to compare peak Graf of 88/89 and peak Seles of 91/93.
 

Joe Pike

Banned
You know who else is pretty overrated? Monica Seles, if she was so great, why couldn't she win every tournament she played in? She woulda, coulda, shoulda had a record of eleventy billion wins to zero losses.


She is not overrated.
At her peak Seles is most certainly among the 8 best players.
#8 behind Graf, Navratilova, Henin, Court, Evert, S. Williams and BJK.
 
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