Serena does not even need 23 slams to be GOAT over Graf

[Man of steel]

Her sister died in 2003, but she missed the US Open that year and the subsequent AO in 2004 due to a knee surgery. It had nothing to do with her sister's death.

Fitness and injuries are part of the game. And personal problems too. Everyone has personal problems.

Everyone has personal problems sure. But which other tennis player has had to deal with a sister being gunned down and murdered.
Even chrissy had to write an apology letter to serena because she didn't realise how the death of yetunde affected the whole family especialy both serena and venus. She was dealing with depression for most of 04-07 especially in 06 when her ranking dropped out of the Top 100 since 1998....she said so in her biography. So yeah a lot of it had to do with the death of her sister.

 

[THUNDERVOLLEY]

A lot easier to do when the innumerable members of the younger generation suck. It's freaking 2015 and the only Slam winner born in the 90s is Kvitova.

Kvitova was born in March of 1990; Azarenka only few months earlier in July of 1989, so they are part of the same generation, two majors each.

 

[THUNDERVOLLEY]

Everyone has personal problems sure. But which other tennis player has had to deal with a sister being gunned down and murdered.
Even chrissy had to write an apology letter to serena because she didn't realise how the death of yetunde affected the whole family especialy both serena and venus. She was dealing with depression for most of 04-07 especially in 06 when her ranking dropped out of the Top 100 since 1998....she said so in her biography. So yeah a lot of it had to do with the death of her sister.

Why bother trying to present actual history? Not only did Evert have to apologize, but the longtime Williams hate-monger Tracy Austin backpedaled enough to spin the earth into a reverse orbit (and lost one of her jobs) for horribly dismissive comments about Yetunde's murder / effect on the sisters.

As always, truth destroys agenda.

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

She is included. It's just some stupid journalists who ignores the history and judges by the Open Era.

In the earlier stages you are right that some of the best players of the world weren't included, but later they did and she still dominated the tournament.

And also, huge chunk? She won 13 slams outside of Australian Open and achieved the CYGS, also winning 3/4 slams for 4 seasons. Thats what there is to say really...

Yes, 46% is a huge chunk.

The Open Era distinction is not some arbitrary contrivance by "some stupid journalists". The pre-Open top players were divided between pros and amatuers. Pro players were not permitted to play the slams. In addition, while more top players were able to play the AO in the Open Era, there was still a significant number who did not throughout much of the 1970s.

Even in the early years of the Open Era, the AO consisted of a smaller draw. There was still only 5 rounds rather than 7 rounds. When Court won her last AO in '73 the draw size was larger but she was still only required to play 6 rounds.

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

AO draw size in the early years of the Open Era:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1969_Australian_Open_%E2%80%93_Women%27s_Singles

With a draw size of a mere 32, the AO was 75% smaller than the other slams.
.

 

[pat200]

In terms of achievements, Graf, Navratilova, Evert and Court trump Serena's achievements. That is why she can't be the greatest of all time yet.

However in terms of ability, no player has played better, and I am a Graf fan. Serena is the BEST ever, that there is no doubt of.

To those saying that people like Graf and Navratilova can't keep up with Serena and co, have you seen an over the hill Navratilova against Seles? You do realize that both Navratilove and Graf are the mothers of the power game? You do realize that an over the hill Steffi has a 1-1 h2h record (2-1 if you count the exhibition she won in straight sets) against Serena in 1999, the year Serena won her first GS and started her ascension to the top? Such a statement is ridiculous especially considering how one dimensional today's game is. Just hit hard, and then harder and keep running with no ability to add any variety to their games...

 

[big ted]

serena has no rival or competition. if steffi was in this era instead of serena, she would probably have at least 3 calendar grand slams imo

 

[SLD76]

serena has no rival or competition. if steffi was in this era instead of serena, she would probably have at least 3 calendar grand slams imo

Uh huh. The same Graf that got run down by Hingis who was run out of tennis by Serena ' s generation. The same Graf who lost to Davenport, not even a natural grass courter, at Wimbledon.

 

[Daized]

With all the excuses for Serena, it's amazing how people forget to consider how much time on tour Graf herself missed due to injuries. There were several years where she basically didn't play. She also had a crazy father to deal with through most of her career. She also retired earlier than she had to. Serena is playing far longer than she did.

It's appalling to me that most of Serena's success has come in a post Henin/Clijsters/Venus era. When her toughest competition in finals is someone like Wozniacki, a slamless former world number 1, it's a joke. She can't even move that well anymore. All she does is serve and return well. Rest of her game is terrible, yet she wins because virtually no woman on tour is capable of holding serve against her or moving her around. Trust me, Graf would hold serve and more importantly use her Olympic caliber athleticism (People forget how fast she was) to get into points with Serena. The eye test is not in Serena's favor. Her competition is DEFINITELY not in her favor. Her records are not in her favor. No contest, Graf is the better singles player.

 

[AngieB]

There were many errors made by the ESPN commentators when discussing Serena's place in history as the finals approached and then completed.

The blonde lady who commentated with Pam Shriver kept saying, "Serena now stands alone in the Open Era". Pam never corrected her, in spite of the err. I assume all the bravado was used to capture the viewers attention in spite of a poor recollection and projection of history.

Serena is tied with Helen Wills Moody as the winningest American in grand slam singles (men or women) history..

Omitting Margaret Court's 24 and Steffi's 22 when comparing Serena, is not being true to the history of tennis. There is no way Serena's 19 can be better than the two women who hold the rare CYGS, such as Margaret and Steffi. Serena is dominating and still has the opportunity to flip that.

#PTL #JC4Ever

AngieB​

 

[dlk]

Weak Era or not, once she gets to 25 Slams, she is gonna be GOAT in my book:shock:

 

[AngieB]

Yes, 46% is a huge chunk.

The Open Era distinction is not some arbitrary contrivance by "some stupid journalists". The pre-Open top players were divided between pros and amatuers. Pro players were not permitted to play the slams. In addition, while more top players were able to play the AO in the Open Era, there was still a significant number who did not throughout much of the 1970s.

Even in the early years of the Open Era, the AO consisted of a smaller draw. There was still only 5 rounds rather than 7 rounds. When Court won her last AO in '73 the draw size was larger but she was still only required to play 6 rounds.

You are absolutely misinformed and wrong about Pre-Open Era women's tennis. The best women players in the world consistently played the amateur grand slam events pre-Open era from the 1880's to 1968. The women who chose to turn professional and play exhibitions pre-1968 typically did this directly after retirement from grand slam amateur tennis.

Such wasn't always the case for men's tennis, where by the professional circuit often competed with the amateur circuit for recruiting best players, sometimes leaving the amateur grand slam tournaments pre-Open Era without the best players.

Historically-speaking, for women's tennis, there isn't much of a distinction between pre-Open Era and post-Open Era in terms of strength of grand slam field as there is for men's tennis. I wish people would stop pedaling the same misinformation about women's tennis in an attempt to diminish the accomplishments of women pre-Open Era.

Helen's 19 and Margaret's 24 is just as great as Steffi's 22 and Serena's 19. Go bye.

#PTL #JC4Ever

AngieB​

 

[big ted]

Uh huh. The same Graf that got run down by Hingis who was run out of tennis by Serena ' s generation. The same Graf who lost to Davenport, not even a natural grass courter, at Wimbledon.

graf was run down by hingis? grafs h2h with her is 7-3.

hingis was run out by serena? hingis' h2h w/ serena is 6-7.

and graf retired from tennis altogether a month after that wimbledon final with davenport because of injuries.
she even withdrew from mixed with mcenroe during that wimbledon because of her knee .

 

[AngieB]

Kvitova was born in March of 1990; Azarenka only few months earlier in July of 1989, so they are part of the same generation, two majors each.

Both are largely irrelevant and cannot win consistently enough to capture the imagination of tennis fans or keep an elevated ranking.

Both girls, not exactly mensa material.

#PTL #JC4Ever

AngieB​

 

[Deleted member 688153]

Well I've been watching tennis for well over 20 years NadalAgassi so I've got a pretty good idea what I'm talking about at this stage. And yes, Chris has a good argument for being ahead of Martina but perhaps you're forgetting why so many consider Navratiova > Evert? The 13 consecutive matches Martina won when both players were at their very best(or pretty damn close to it) back in the 80s. Oh and the fact that she also won more Year End Championships and spent longer at number 1.

Do you think it is NadalAgassi?
I had my suspicions before.

If it is them, they are being more careful, but in threads like this they're shining through.

 

[jm1980]

graf was run down by hingis? grafs h2h with her is 7-3.

hingis was run out by serena? hingis' h2h w/ serena is 6-7.

and graf retired from tennis altogether a month after that wimbledon final with davenport because of injuries.
she even withdrew from mixed with mcenroe during that wimbledon because of her knee .

You are presenting facts to win an argument? :lol:

All you need to do is make up bogus weak era and stabbing arguments and you're golden

 

[AngieB]

she even withdrew from mixed with mcenroe during that wimbledon because of her knee .

You believe, that? Ha!

Steffi went unexpectantly deep in the singles draw and didn't want to be distracted, hence she dumped poor John, who has whined, moaned and complained about it ever since. John was quoted in Andre's book "Open" as calling Steffi a "b---ch" in the men's locker room.

Graf's knee didn't become an issue again until after 1999 Wimbledon.

#PTL #JC4Ever

AngieB​

 

[Deleted member 688153]

Well, we all know why Djokovic2011 cares :lol: Because his loverboy Djokovic isn't particularly good at winning these, certainly not even close to the ones at the top of the list.



Yeah, like the majority of Djokovic fans. Tennis started in 2011. He, himself, admitted that he hadn't been following tennis the last few years. He probably even missed Federer's and Rafa's best (peak and prime) years.

That is the reason he often asks other posters to recommend him some clips to watch.



Oh, the irony :lol:

While worshipping Fedal is okay, it is not a requirement on this forum.
People can be fans of whoever they like, even Djokovic.

 

[THUNDERVOLLEY]

I wish people would stop pedaling the same misinformation about women's tennis in an attempt to diminish the accomplishments of women pre-Open Era.

Helen's 19 and Margaret's 24 is just as great as Steffi's 22 and Serena's 19. Go bye.

#PTL #JC4Ever

AngieB​

Well said. On boards such as this one, certain members (you know who) tried to separate pre-Open & Open, all to protect a couple of Open Era players incapable of the greatest records. Further, since players such as Court & Laver both won the Grand Slam in the Open Era, there's no escaping the GOAT achievement, thus the transparent, desperate attempt to pump up certain Grand Slam-challenged players from the 2000s will not work against history.

 

[dlk]

Well said. On boards such as this one, certain members (you know who) tried to separate pre-Open & Open, all to protect a couple of Open Era players incapable of the greatest records. Further, since players such as Court & Laver both won the Grand Slam in the Open Era, there's no escaping the GOAT achievement, thus the transparent, desperate attempt to pump up certain Grand Slam-challenged players from the 2000s will not work against history.

I disagree. I have the utmost respect for the trailblazers of the sport, but we have to define a demarcation to respect the older generations. Today's athletes would smoke yesterday's athletes; they are Steve Austin - - bigger, stronger, faster (I was a very good basketball player at 5'5" & 140lbs, but there were guys who could do what I could do at 6'0" & 190lbs). Hello, evolution. It's no disrespect to divide Eras.

 

[AngieB]

Why would you think I want to move the goal posts when Serena is one of my favourite players? She will likely pass both Chris and Martina sooner or later anyway so why are you so bothered about it? Why are you so impatient for her to be greater than them now? How does it impact YOUR life? What a strange character you are.

I really wish people would realise that slams aren't everything in tennis. If people can have debates on who is greater out of Graf and Navratilova and Federer and Nadal then they can sure as hell do the same about Serena and Evert/Martina, especially when the gap in majors between them is even smaller than it is between those aforementioned players.

I do notice a pattern with you and Mr. Wiki, by which you malignantly undermine the importance of ITF-sanctioned grand slam events (i.e. #majoring in #minors) by highlighting other lesser important career statistics which can never define greatness. Winning ITF-sanctioned grand slam events in tennis (i.e. CYGS) is the summit of the sport. Nothing else is greater.

Not surprising that a die-hard fan of Novak Djokovic, who understands that Novak will never likely approach Rafael and Roger in grand slam totals, would purposefully undermine the importance of grand slam tennis and embrace lesser career statistics in an effort to bolster Novak's place in tennis history. It's been attempted many times before by better fans of better players in tennis history unsuccessfully.

Serena has surpassed Martina and Chris, by sharing the winningest American in grand slam singles history mark (#19) with Helen Wills Moody. Serena has won the biggest, best and most prestigious tournaments in tennis more times than Chris or Martina.

Nice try, tho. Go bye.

#PTL #JC4Ever

AngieB​

 

[tennisfan87]

While worshipping Fedal is okay, it is not a requirement on this forum.
People can be fans of whoever they like, even Djokovic.

And who claimed otherwise? Redundant post, seriously. Yes, people can be fans of whoever they like but at the same time, they should be respectful of other tennis players (their achievements) and their fans which is certainly not the case with Djokovic2011.

Have a nice day :wink:

 

[pirateofthecarribean]

IMO Serena needs 22 slams to be GOAT because Seles was stabbed.

 

[AngieB]

IMO Serena needs 22 slams to be GOAT because Seles was stabbed.

Here come the Selesian's, singing their "Monica Got Robbed Song" again. I can't imagine walking around for 20 years, harboring such resentment. It's actually kind of scary when you think about it. Not scary in a good way either. Get over it already, go bye.

#PTL #JC4Ever

AngieB​

 

[pirateofthecarribean]

Here come the Selesian's, singing their "Monica Got Robbed Song" again. I can't imagine walking around for 20 years, harboring such resentment. It's actually kind of scary when you think about it. Not scary in a good way either. Get over it already, go bye.

#PTL #JC4Ever

AngieB​

How many tennis players got stabbed? 1. This is serious matter. For all we know, Graf could have hired that guy to stab Seles. Heck, if that were true, Graf would be stripped of all 22 slams.

 

[gerrysbland]

Out of 58 slam appearences, Serena has made 23 finals and 3 SF. About 12 QF.

On 20 occasions (which is 1 out of every 3 majors), she fails to make it to the second week.

Imagine if Graf or Chrissie or Martina had this level of consistency, how their title count would have gone down.

You are seriously comparing the days everyone outside the top 3 women was a fat digusting pig who couldn't play tennis (Martina/Chris era), and the top 2 had a virtual bye to every final vs today when everyone in the top 30 atleast can play serious tennis.

 

[THUNDERVOLLEY]

I do notice a pattern with you and Mr. Wiki, by which you malignantly undermine the importance of ITF-sanctioned grand slam events (i.e. #majoring in #minors) by highlighting other lesser important career statistics which can never define greatness.

AKA the padded trivia list.

Winning ITF-sanctioned grand slam events in tennis (i.e. CYGS) is the summit of the sport. Nothing else is greater.

...which has been supported by history all along. Notice how the attackers can never explain why players such as Laver were constantly called the GOAT when he never had the most majors. His distinction was certainly not in consideration of trivia, but it is a matter of record that he was crowned thanks to the Grand Slam.

Not surprising that a die-hard fan of Novak Djokovic, who understands that Novak will never likely approach Rafael and Roger in grand slam totals, would purposefully undermine the importance of grand slam tennis and embrace lesser career statistics in an effort to bolster Novak's place in tennis history. It's been attempted many times before by better fans of better players in tennis history unsuccessfully.

Fascinating.

Serena has surpassed Martina and Chris, by sharing the winningest American in grand slam singles history mark (#19) with Helen Wills Moody. Serena has won the biggest, best and most prestigious tournaments in tennis more times than Chris or Martina.

Nice try, tho. Go bye.

#PTL #JC4Ever

AngieB​

All the reason why Mr. Wiki jumped into this thread with his deservedly mocked / dismissed trivia list. He was hoping beyond hope that the AO semi, then final would go to the opponents. However, when he sees Serena's continued history-making achievements, he likely burst with rage, leaping into his multiple user accounts on innumerable boards, posting the same, tired trivia lists never supported by historical considerations.

 

[THUNDERVOLLEY]

How many tennis players got stabbed? 1. This is serious matter. For all we know, Graf could have hired that guy to stab Seles. Heck, if that were true, Graf would be stripped of all 22 slams.

Absurd. Seles without the attack remains a non-GOAT, forever divorced from success at Wimbledon, and the same contemporaries and post-attack players would win the majors as witnessed by history.

 

[Noleberic123]

Thanks. My family have just arrived and I'm going out for a nice birthday meal where I'll be spending time with people who care about me and don't think I'm a bad person like certain posters on here seem to. No need to waste any more time responding to obnoxious trolls.

You seem like a wonderful person to me. enjoy and Happy Birthday!!

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

You are absolutely misinformed and wrong about Pre-Open Era women's tennis. The best women players in the world consistently played the amateur grand slam events pre-Open era from the 1880's to 1968. The women who chose to turn professional and play exhibitions pre-1968 typically did this directly after retirement from grand slam amateur tennis.

Such wasn't always the case for men's tennis, where by the professional circuit often competed with the amateur circuit for recruiting best players, sometimes leaving the amateur grand slam tournaments pre-Open Era without the best players.

Historically-speaking, for women's tennis, there isn't much of a distinction between pre-Open Era and post-Open Era in terms of strength of grand slam field as there is for men's tennis...

Perhaps the pro/amateur thing was more applicable to the men than the women of the pro-Open era. However, there were still female pro players prior to 1968 that were not allowed to play the slams. Please note, however, that I made a general statement about pre-Open tennis that is regarded as true -- I did not make that particular statement specifically about pre-Open Women's tennis.

I noticed that you really only addressed this one point. I had actually made several points. Refresher: The draw for the Australian Championships and the early AO was considerably smaller (32 players vs 128 players). When Court won the AO in '73, the draw was larger but she was only required play 6 rounds (rather than a full 7 rounds at other slams).

Another point that I had made was the Australian Championships and the early AO was more of an Aussie tournament rather than a truly international one, as was the other slam events. Many top female players in the 60s and 70s rarely played Down Under. Top players of the time, such as Billie Jean, Nancy Richey, Rosie Casals, Ann Jones, and Francois Durr only played the Australian Championships/Open 2 or 3x during this period. (To put it another way, Richey skipped the "AO" 17x from '61 thru '78; Billie Jean skipped it 18x from '61 thru '81).

As I indicated previously, 46% of Margaret's 24 were from this subpar "AO" slam event. Margaret's 24 cannot compare to Steffi's 22.

 

[Deleted member 21996]

Which part of what I posted was a lie?

She has 11 Slams in the Open Era, well behind Graf's 22.

Doubles Slams are a different matter entirely as well, which is why nobody ever mentions the Bryan bros' 16 Slams in any GOAT argument

the operation terms were not...

 

[ScentOfDefeat]

http://i.eurosport.com/2015/01/31/1405346-30103574-1600-900.jpg

By the way, what happened to Serena's eyebrows? They look like pieces of cardboard that were cut out and glued to her superciliary arches.

 

[Guy Incognito]

Can't fault her tennis so you must attack her looks.. Desperate and predictable this forum is.

Can't wait till she breaks Graff's record.. then you clowns will cry

'but, but she didn't beat 24 so Court is still the GOAT..'

lmao

 

[G1PlAyer2]

No it's not the same comparison. Making the finals is better than losing early, there's no way to dispute that. Serena made fewer slam finals because she lost more in the early rounds. You value only slam final record but I value every 7 matches, because that's what it takes to win a slam by winning 7 straight matches.

It's a skewed statistic because Navratilova and Evert were able to win some of their slams by playing only 5 and 6 matches. This was during a time where top players also received byes in the opening round as well. This stopped during the mid-80ies however, but the traditional 128 player 7 round draw wasn't always around during their era. I'm not saying they wouldn't have won those slams anyway, but to be able to win a slam just by playing 5 matches is something else.

 

[ScentOfDefeat]

Can't fault her tennis so you must attack her looks.. Desperate and predictable this forum is.

Can't wait till she breaks Graff's record.. then you clowns will cry

'but, but she didn't beat 24 so Court is still the GOAT..'

lmao

How did you infer all of that from a post about her weird looking eyebrows? Wow...

 

[gerrysbland]

Can't fault her tennis so you must attack her looks.. Desperate and predictable this forum is.

Can't wait till she breaks Graff's record.. then you clowns will cry

'but, but she didn't beat 24 so Court is still the GOAT..'

lmao

Yes watch that happen, even though it will be from very people who barely acknowledge Court's existence right now.