How many slams does Serena need to be the GOAT

How many slams does Serena need to displace Graf asnew GOAT


  • Total voters
    22
I know there are some that already consider Serena the best ever, and there is an option on the poll for that too. However for those who dont as well, how many slams do you think she would need to reach to be the best ever in your view. I think she would need 25 slams. The current best ever- Steffi Graf, has just too many stats over her, and too impressive an overall career as far as versatility and other areas, to be considered below Serena unless she breaks Court's slam record. I would say she needs 19 slams to be considered over Navratilova and Wills Moody for 2nd best ever. I already consider her superior to Evert and Court.
 

Graf=GOAT

Professional
At least 25. She's playing in an era where Errani and Radwanska are top 5. Thus there must be a weak era adjustment.
 
In a game where numbers matter, she would at least have to pass Graf in order to be considered one of the greatest. She still is one of the greatest players ever, though.

(I don't believe in the entire GOAT thing though...)
 
At least 25. She's playing in an era where Errani and Radwanska are top 5. Thus there must be a weak era adjustment.

She didnt win all her majors in a weak era though. Remember 1999-2003 was perhaps the strongest womens field in history. Certainly the deepest ever.

Graf also had a weaker era post 92 with the Seles stabbing, Navratilova aging out of contention, Sabatini slumping and declining, Capriati burnt out and off tour, Fernandez never a contender again after the 93 French due to injuries. Graf had one half of her career with very strong competition, and one half with weaker, just like Serena. Although Graf's field was never as weak as now I would admit, but then again it was never quite as strong as 99-2003 either.
 

The Hermit

Semi-Pro
I think she needs 24 slams in order to pass steffi graf to become goat, yes i know graf won 22 slams, but she has calendar golden slam and won at least 4 times each slam, a big plus, so serena has to have 24 slams to surpass graf in my goat list.
 
I don't think Serena needs 25 or even 22. Graf gets a question mark by many tennis fans due to the Seles stabbing. I am convinced Graf would NEVER win 22 slams if Monica did not get stabbed.

I think Serena needs to tie Evert and Navatilova THEN we can start the conversation but she isn't there yet but she's very close to it.

Serena does need to at least equal Evert and Navratilova to even be in the conversation of GOAT. Once Serena ties Chris and Martina I think it will give her more relevance and veracity I feel. Serena is VERY CLOSE if she stays healthy then next year she should tie Chris and Martina.
 

Midaso240

Legend
I don't think Serena needs 25 or even 22. Graf gets a question mark by many tennis fans due to the Seles stabbing. I am convinced Graf would NEVER win 22 slams if Monica did not get stabbed.

I think Serena needs to tie Evert and Navatilova THEN we can start the conversation but she isn't there yet but she's very close to it.

Serena does need to at least equal Evert and Navratilova to even be in the conversation of GOAT. Once Serena ties Chris and Martina I think it will give her more relevance and veracity I feel. Serena is VERY CLOSE if she stays healthy then next year she should tie Chris and Martina.
Right,so that means there is an asterix on the slam counts of Murray,Djokovic and Federer since they all won at least one grand slam when Nadal was out with injury and he owns all of them H2H?
 

AngieB

Banned
Serena's çareer statistics outside of the grand slam singles events are modest in comparison to Court, Graf, Wills-Moody, Evert and Navratilova. The only way to overcome this deficit would be to surpass Court in grand slam singles titles.

AngieB
 
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Talker

Hall of Fame
Serena's çareer statistics outside of the grand slam singles events are modest in comparison to Court, Graf, Wills-Moody, Evert and Navratilova. The only way to overcome this deficit would be to surpass Court in grand slam singles titles.

AngieB

Needs to have the most and has to get close in weeks #1 too.
 

Chico

Banned
Graf has more than 18 majors.

Did you think anyone would not know where you're going?

Sorry, but Graf is not the GOAT.
Navratilova is the GOAT and to pass her Serena needs at least 19 slams. That was the OPs question that I answered.

It is as simple as that. Thank you.
 

THUNDERVOLLEY

G.O.A.T.
Martina is not now, nor has she ever been a GOAT. She's lucky to be considered one of the "best of the rest." It is no wonder she hates Graf so much; on her best day, Martina could not win the Grand Slam.
 
Martina is not now, nor has she ever been a GOAT. She's lucky to be considered one of the "best of the rest." It is no wonder she hates Graf so much; on her best day, Martina could not win the Grand Slam.

I think Martina is mostly overrated to be considered 3rd best behind Graf and Serena by many. For me she should be 6th behind Court, Evert, and Wills Moody as well. Outside of Wimbledon and her absolute peak years her record is generally inferior to those others.

To refer to her as GOAT over Graf, Serena, or even Court who trumps all her singles and doubles overall numbers, is quite laughable. Even if Graf were not the GOAT, Martina by no measure other than Wimbledon titles only would be. All those I mentioned have more impressive careers from most aspects which I would be happy to go through player by player. Well all except Serena but she is unique in that her peak level play so far exceeds others it trumps her lesser numbers to some degree. Had it not been for Graf's knee surgery in 97, Martina wouldn t even have the Wimbledon record either, as Graf was clearly on mark to break that by the end of 96.
 
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TMF

Talk Tennis Guru
Sorry, but Graf is not the GOAT.
Navratilova is the GOAT and to pass her Serena needs at least 19 slams. That was the OPs question that I answered.

It is as simple as that. Thank you.

Are you just basing on slam?

There are other criteria to consider, although slam count is the most important metric.
 

Chico

Banned
This is your opinion which is incorrect just like it is incorrect that Nadal is the GOAT. He is not and Graf is neither.

I think Martina is mostly overrated to be considered 3rd best behind Graf and Serena by many. For me she should be 6th behind Court, Evert, and Wills Moody as well. Outside of Wimbledon and her absolute peak years her record is generally inferior to those others.

To refer to her as GOAT over Graf, Serena, or even Court who trumps all her singles and doubles overall numbers, is quite laughable. Even if Graf were not the GOAT, Martina by no measure other than Wimbledon titles only would be. All those I mentioned have more impressive careers from most aspects which I would be happy to go through player by player. Well all except Serena but she is unique in that her peak level play so far exceeds others it trumps her lesser numbers to some degree. Had it not been for Graf's knee surgery in 97, Martina wouldn t even have the Wimbledon record either, as Graf was clearly on mark to break that by the end of 96.
 

Incognito

Legend
Right,so that means there is an asterix on the slam counts of Murray,Djokovic and Federer since they all won at least one grand slam when Nadal was out with injury and he owns all of them H2H?

Nobody stabbed Nadal. It's not Federer's or Murray's fault he can't compete. Seles on the other hand was stabbed after having won 4 of the last 5 majors she participated in. Seles won 7 of the last 9 majors before she was stabbed.
 
This is your opinion which is incorrect

Unfortunately somebody with a signature which claims Djokovic who has won 1 slam and 1 Masters this year is real #1 over a guy who has 2 slams and 5 Masters (and is now computer #1) does not have their opinions taken seriously by anyone. My opinion >>>>>>>> your opinion.
 

Midaso240

Legend
Nobody stabbed Nadal. It's not Federer's or Murray's fault he can't compete. Seles on the other hand was stabbed after having won 4 of the last 5 majors she participated in. Seles won 7 of the last 9 majors before she was stabbed.
Whose fault is it that Seles got stabbed? These things happen,all players can focus on is the controllable and beat whoever is across the net from them. The Seles stabbing is not a factor,and anyone who brings it up as a black mark against Graf has a very Serena/Court/Evert/Navratilova biased agenda
 

Incognito

Legend
Whose fault is it that Seles got stabbed? These things happen,all players can focus on is the controllable and beat whoever is across the net from them. The Seles stabbing is not a factor,and anyone who brings it up as a black mark against Graf has a very Serena/Court/Evert/Navratilova biased agenda

and anyone who pretends like the seles-stabbing was nothing is probably happy it happened, now that's disgusting.

biased agenda? What about Gunther's biased agenda?
 

iri10

Rookie
I think Martina is mostly overrated to be considered 3rd best behind Graf and Serena by many. For me she should be 6th behind Court, Evert, and Wills Moody as well. Outside of Wimbledon and her absolute peak years her record is generally inferior to those others.

I'm kind of curious about the Martina / Chris comparison here. It seems that all the female GOAT candidates have some aspect of their competition that can be used against them (usually by fans of other GOAT candidates), but I would think that Chris over Martina would be a very hard sell.

They have equal slams, but Martina has the better slam final win/loss %, a H2H lead over Chris (44-38 ), and a dominating H2H lead in slam finals (10-4).

I mean, lots of people in this forum put Nadal over Federer because of the H2H despite the unequal slam count. In the case of an equal slam count, I'd think it'd be a slam dunk comparison, especially when the number of matches is as high as it was with Chris/Martina. Chris does get an edge in overall career match winning %, reflecting her slightly better consistency.
 
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Whose fault is it that Seles got stabbed? These things happen,all players can focus on is the controllable and beat whoever is across the net from them. The Seles stabbing is not a factor,and anyone who brings it up as a black mark against Graf has a very Serena/Court/Evert/Navratilova biased agenda

Actually, Steffi could done a lot, she could of gone to the court she could of been more supportive of Monica Seles but CHOSE NOT TO. Maybe if Steffi was more PROACTIVE and perhaps involved in the case the German court system might of sentenced Gunther Parche? Steffi IGNORED Monica all she cared about was WINNING SLAMS. But Graf's record is tainted because for two years Steffi's main rival was out of the game. Even Martina Navratilova criticized Graf in ESPN this year along with a few other players like Chris Evert for her behaviour towards Monica.

Steffi was pretty heartless she didn't give a damn that Monica was almost killed because of her, all she cared about was winning slam trophies. It matters because Steffi Graf a GERMAN benefited from the STABBING and the GERMAN court system let Monica Seles attacker FREE. People make all kinds of excuses but the German court system and society seemed to turn a blind eye to a man trying to kill a woman on LIVE TELEVISION. Gunther Parche is NOT in prison his goal was for Graf to get back to number one and she did. Now people make a lot of excuses about German society but the Seles stabbing had a lot to do with XENOPHOBIA and probably RACISM. Seles a Serbian tennis player was dominating women's tennis in the early 1990s she won 8 slams prior to age 20 she was so dominant from 1991 to early 1993. Seles had a 3-1 edge against Graf in the slam finals.

Monica and Steffi don't talk they aren't friends and Monica didn't mince words she doesn't LIKE Steffi Graf EITHER. I can't say I blame Monica, due to their history.
 
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Midaso240

Legend
Actually, Steffi could done a lot, she could of gone to the court she could of been more supportive of Monica Seles but CHOSE NOT TO. Maybe if Steffi was more PROACTIVE and perhaps involved in the case the German court system might of sentenced Gunther Parche? Steffi IGNORED Monica all she cared about was WINNING SLAMS. But Graf's record is tainted because for two years Steffi's main rival was out of the game. Even Martina Navratilova criticized Graf in ESPN this year along with a few other players like Chris Evert for her behaviour towards Monica.

Steffi was pretty heartless she didn't give a damn that Monica was almost killed because of her, all she cared about was winning slam trophies. It matters because Steffi Graf a GERMAN benefited from the STABBING and the GERMAN court system let Monica Seles attacker FREE. People make all kinds of excuses but the German court system and society seemed to turn a blind eye to a man trying to kill a woman on LIVE TELEVISION. Gunther Parche is NOT in prison his goal was for Graf to get back to number one and she did. Now people make a lot of excuses about German society but the Seles stabbing had a lot to do with XENOPHOBIA and probably RACISM. Seles a Serbian tennis player was dominating women's tennis in the early 1990s she won 8 slams prior to age 20 she was so dominant from 1991 to early 1993. Seles had a 3-1 edge against Graf in the slam finals.

Monica and Steffi don't talk they aren't friends and Monica didn't mince words she doesn't LIKE Steffi Graf EITHER. I can't say I blame Monica, due to their history.
Graf led the H2H 10-5,and 6-4 in slams,3-3 in finals. It's not like it was 10-1 Seles or anything. So Seles won 8 slams before turning 20,but only beat Graf in 3 of those slams? So obviously it wasn't really Seles that was the only problem was it,it's not like it was 8-2 in grand slam finals like Federer-Nadal is.
 

Chico

Banned
Unfortunately somebody with a signature which claims Djokovic who has won 1 slam and 1 Masters this year is real #1 over a guy who has 2 slams and 5 Masters (and is now computer #1) does not have their opinions taken seriously by anyone. My opinion >>>>>>>> your opinion.

My signature is irrelevant here. That is not an argument in this discussion, sorry. Although claiming Nadal is the GOAT in a signature is much much worse, to be honest.

Sorry but anyway you put it, your opinion here is wrong.
 

New Daddy

Rookie
The logic of the poll is really skewed.

It assumes Graf is the female GOAT, which many can agree to. Then it asks how many more slams Serena needs to supplant her as the new GOAT. Graf does not have the highest number of grand slams won by a female player; Margaret Court does. So Graf's shortcoming in the # of GS doesn't matter vis-a-vis Margaret Court, but it suddenly does for Serena? What's the rationale? Why are you being generous to Graf in terms of the number GS titles and not to Serena?

I think Serena should be considered the GOAT already. No player had her kind of dominance on the tour during their prime.
 
The logic of the poll is really skewed.

It assumes Graf is the female GOAT, which many can agree to. Then it asks how many more slams Serena needs to supplant her as the new GOAT. Graf does not have the highest number of grand slams won by a female player; Margaret Court does. So Graf's shortcoming in the # of GS doesn't matter vis-a-vis Margaret Court, but it suddenly does for Serena? What's the rationale? Why are you being generous to Graf in terms of the number GS titles and not to Serena?

I think Serena should be considered the GOAT already. No player had her kind of dominance on the tour during their prime.

No way did I specify that. Obviously slam titles is not the only barometer for GOAT, otherwise as you said Court would be viewed as the GOAT and he isnt (although maybe she should, she is probably the most underrated all time great, with Navratilova by far the most overrated). I gave people options to vote for any number from 18 to 25. They dont have to believe she has to tie or break Court's official slam titles mark, that is up to the individual.

In my case I said I think she needs 25, just because the other aspects of her career are severely lacking in comparision to not only Graf, but to Court and several others. She also needs some kind of major record, and the slam record would be that for her. Graf has many records even sitting only #2 in slam wins, only one to win each major 4 times, only one to win the big 3 majors all atleast 5 times, most consecutive weeks at #1, most total weeks at #1, history's only ever Golden Slam. So Court's official slam record becomes important for Serena since it is some kind of major official record, and she needs some kind of major official record. Although I will say I think Serena at her best beats every other women tennis player in history at their best, except on clay. In fact I would have no problem saying she might already be the best female player in history, but best is very different from greatest.

If you think Serena only needs 1 more major (18 ) to be GOAT or you think she is already the GOAT just vote for such. The options are there. What are you complaining about.
 

SuperHead

Rookie
She is close to being GOAT, but needs more slams- at least the number of Grand Slams Graf has won. For that she needs 5+ slams, but the thing is she's already around 32 years of age.
 
History does not agree with you. Martina never approached the criteria for being a GOAT.

You will just have to live with that.

Even as overrated as she is (I think she should be 5th or 6th all time really, but most have her around 3rd) there isnt a single collective experts list or poll that has had Martina as GOAT in over a decade now. Heck there is barely a single expert period who has called her GOAT for a long time now. The last I remember was Tennis Magazine picking her as #1 all time in 1995, and that was before Graf's career was over (by 1999 they picked Graf Player of the Century so she even lost their top position).
 

kiki

Banned
In my personal opinion, there is no such thing as a real GOAT in a sport such as tennis. There are a lot of great players who clearly dominated the rest of the world in their era. That's it. We don't have and never will have enough proof to say that one was clearly better than the other.

That said, I think Serena needs at least 23-24 titles to be in the same league as Graf, Navratilova and the others.

And for some reason, I cannot help myself but to consider Serena a male player on a tour of females. At least the others still looked like women. Don't hate me for saying that :p

well, Navratilova and, of course, Mauresmo didn´t look to feminine to me...
 

Chico

Banned
Nobody stabbed Nadal. It's not Federer's or Murray's fault he can't compete. Seles on the other hand was stabbed after having won 4 of the last 5 majors she participated in. Seles won 7 of the last 9 majors before she was stabbed.

and anyone who pretends like the seles-stabbing was nothing is probably happy it happened, now that's disgusting.

biased agenda? What about Gunther's biased agenda?

Nicely said and true.
 

AngieB

Banned
Martina is not now, nor has she ever been a GOAT. She's lucky to be considered one of the "best of the rest." It is no wonder she hates Graf so much; on her best day, Martina could not win the Grand Slam.
I think Martina is a serious GOAT candidate for combined singles/doubles/mixed in tennis history. However, as a singles player, she is clearly not GOAT.

I placed Martina really, really close behind Steffi because she had such a close head-to-head and stayed competitive with Steffi during the twilight of her career.

Was very fortunate to witness the passing of the torch from Martina to Steffi. It was great tennis.

AngieB
 

THUNDERVOLLEY

G.O.A.T.
Even as overrated as she is (I think she should be 5th or 6th all time really, but most have her around 3rd) there isnt a single collective experts list or poll that has had Martina as GOAT in over a decade now.

Martina's well known hatred of Graf had its origins in the near-universal praise of Graf being a GOAT as she won the Grand Slam in 1988; from that point forward, Martina's shameful attacks against Graf made it clear she (Martina) thought she was entitled to a status Navratilova never earned. True, while Graf's additional success added insult to injury, the heart of Martina's hatred was Graf winning the ultimate tennis achievement...and she could not. She ended her career being on the same level as Evert, instead of the center of attention (her deflated dream).
 
I saw a similar thread to this a while back. Granddog was predicting that Serena would win 25 Slams. I wasn't then a member, so I couldn't get involved in the discussion, but it's worth raising again now. When Granddog broke down which Slams Serena would win, I think her/his prediction was that she'd get two Slams in 2014, two in 2015, and one in 2016. At any rate, it was certainly five in the next three years. That would leave her needing three in 2017 and beyond to get to 25. I know that her dominance at 31/32 is unprecedented, but I still think that it's way too early to be predicting that she'll win three Slams AFTER her 35th birthday. There's a good chance that, by 2017, someone we've never heard of will be ripping it up. A truly world-class player at the peak of her powers would have a huge advantage over a 35-year-old world class player.

Navratilova is the most recent woman to have been competitive deep into her 30s. At 32, Navratilova was way behind Graf, but she was still an almost equally long way in front of anyone else. (In fact, Navratilova's overall level of performance at 32, in 1989, was probably better than it had been at 31, in 1988, but that's another story. For whatever reason, Martina lost motivation in the first half of 1987, when she was 30, and it was a couple of years before she regained consistent focus, even though she got it together sufficiently to win Wimbledon and the US Open in 1987, when Graf was still too raw to challenge her on surfaces that favored Martina).

Had Graf not taken up tennis, there's a decent chance that the 32-year-old Navratilova would have been a dominant #1. But Martina's level in 1992, when she was 35, was quite a bit below her level in 1989. True, she was still a very good player, and true she made a Slam final as late as 1994, when she was 37. She should really have won that Slam final. But, by 35, her level was not high enough to have been a dominant #1 in any era. Not only were Seles and Graf way in front of her, but even lesser players such as Sabatini and Sanchez had caught her up and marginally surpassed her. Martina was still an excellent player, but she ended 1992 as #5.

Even if, in 2017, there is no world-class player on a par with Seles and Graf around, there will surely be near world-class players on a par with Sabatini and Sanchez around. Azarenka will be 27 for the first half of 2017, and will turn 28 at the end of July that year. She might even be slightly better than Sabatini or Sanchez, and so she should be at least roughly as good as Serena by then, if not a tad better.

And that's probably a best-case scenario as far as Serena is concerned, because, by 2017, there will probably be someone a little better than Azarenka around.
 
I think Serena at 30-32 >> Martina at 30-32 though. Martina at that age was only a threat on faster surfaces, unlike Serena who is on everything. She even stopped playing the Australian and French in 1989. I also think the Serena of the last couple years would have been much more competitive with Graf than what Martina was in 88-89. Martina had to focus on only Wimbledon and the U.S Open by that point, while Serena this past year has focused and dominated year round. Even at 30 Martina won a mere 4 of her 13 tournaments. Last year which wasnt as good as this year for Serena even saw her win 6 tournaments, including 2 major non major ones, in addition to the 2 majors. It certainly isnt because the game was deeper then either. Yes Martina had prime Graf in 88 and 89, and Sabatini who was pretty good, but beyond that not much. The field if anything is alot deeper today, even if womens tennis is a huge level down from what it was 5 or 10 or 15 years ago right now which were really the all time Golden Years.

Of course that doesnt mean Serena at 35 will be much better than Martina at 35. Time will tell. I do think Serena at 31-32 would do better in any era than Martina at 31-32 did though. I dont think even peak Graf would be able to beat the current Serena in 4 or 5 big matches in a row.
 
As for what Serena will reach in major wins I really dont know on that. I think her goal should be to keep winning atleast 2 slams a year as long as she can. I could see her possibly winning another 6 slams up until 2016 also. She could perhaps win another 2 if she plays beyond that. By that point, determination would probably come into play, and the extra incentive of being so close to such a record.

Serena is really unlike any past great, including Martina or Graf. Her extreme firepower, weaponary, and athleticsm combined is such she can literally control her own destiny even in old age, which was not true of either Martina and Graf who when up against Graf, Hingis, or others at that age had to hope for them to underperform to win. I dont sense that with Serena the same way. Most of all though she has a serve that is literally 2 levels above whatever is teh 2nd best serve in history. That is one part of her game that amazingly hasnt diminished one bit with age. If she keeps that serve, she can always win majors.
 
This thread also isnt predicting how many majors she "will" win. It is asking how many majors she would need to win in order to displace Steffi Graf as the GOAT. Predicting how many you would guess her winning is a whole other topic.

It is interesting that the average so far seems to be she needs 23, so surpassing Graf's mark.
 

TMF

Talk Tennis Guru
I'd say she needs to get to 32 slams,including a calendar year golden grand slam to be the GOAT

I don't think she will get 32 slams. Even with her current 17 slam wins, there were a few narrow escape, and the most recent one was the 2012 USO where everyone thought Victoria should have won that final.
 

Pete.Sampras.

Semi-Pro
Another post of mine simply disappeared. How and why does this happen? It doesn't even show up in my post history. There was once again nothing wrong with it, nothing against the "tos". :confused:
 

Mr.Lob

G.O.A.T.
Another post of mine simply disappeared. How and why does this happen? It doesn't even show up in my post history. There was once again nothing wrong with it, nothing against the "tos". :confused:

Maybe one of the moderators is named Andre Aggasi. :shock:
 
I think Serena at 30-32 >> Martina at 30-32 though. Martina at that age was only a threat on faster surfaces, unlike Serena who is on everything. She even stopped playing the Australian and French in 1989. I also think the Serena of the last couple years would have been much more competitive with Graf than what Martina was in 88-89. Martina had to focus on only Wimbledon and the U.S Open by that point, while Serena this past year has focused and dominated year round. Even at 30 Martina won a mere 4 of her 13 tournaments. Last year which wasnt as good as this year for Serena even saw her win 6 tournaments, including 2 major non major ones, in addition to the 2 majors. It certainly isnt because the game was deeper then either. Yes Martina had prime Graf in 88 and 89, and Sabatini who was pretty good, but beyond that not much. The field if anything is alot deeper today, even if womens tennis is a huge level down from what it was 5 or 10 or 15 years ago right now which were really the all time Golden Years.

Of course that doesnt mean Serena at 35 will be much better than Martina at 35. Time will tell. I do think Serena at 31-32 would do better in any era than Martina at 31-32 did though. I dont think even peak Graf would be able to beat the current Serena in 4 or 5 big matches in a row.

You said this in a different post, but I wanted to note that I know your purpose in this thread wasn't to speculate on how many Slams Serena would win. I just raised it in this thread so as to raise a question I'd wanted to raise before but couldn't at the time.

Of course Serena would have been competitive with Graf. But best and greatest aren't synonyms. Serena is clearly the best of all time. She's almost as clearly not the greatest of all time...yet.

So, I'm not sure that Serena at 32 will be all that much greater than Navratilova at 32. Were there a present-day equivalent of Graf of 1989 around, I don't think Serena would be all that competitive with her. For example, I think Serena of 2002/3 would beat Serena of 2013 more often than not.
 
As for what Serena will reach in major wins I really dont know on that. I think her goal should be to keep winning atleast 2 slams a year as long as she can. I could see her possibly winning another 6 slams up until 2016 also. She could perhaps win another 2 if she plays beyond that. By that point, determination would probably come into play, and the extra incentive of being so close to such a record.

Serena is really unlike any past great, including Martina or Graf. Her extreme firepower, weaponary, and athleticsm combined is such she can literally control her own destiny even in old age, which was not true of either Martina and Graf who when up against Graf, Hingis, or others at that age had to hope for them to underperform to win. I dont sense that with Serena the same way. Most of all though she has a serve that is literally 2 levels above whatever is teh 2nd best serve in history. That is one part of her game that amazingly hasnt diminished one bit with age. If she keeps that serve, she can always win majors.

Graf wasn't playing at 32. She turned 32 in June 2001. Could she have been competitive in the year that followed? Assuming some degree of decline, I doubt she'd have beaten Venus at either Wimbledon or the US Open, and I'd be almost sure that she wouldn't have beaten Serena at Roland Garros 2002. But perhaps she could have won the Australian Open.

As for Navratilova: my hypothesis was that she could have been competitive if it weren't for Graf being around and that Serena also wouldn't be that competitive with a present-day equivalent of Graf. Although I think you're right about Serena's serve and also Serena's game is based even more on power than Navratilova's and less on reflexes. Reflexes slow much before power declines. So maybe you're right.

But I still hold that no 35-year-old will ever be as good as a player of the same rough level as them at 25. So by 2017 Serena will be dependent on the absence of a present-day Graf equivalent, even if she isn't dependent on that absence now.
 

feared69

New User
Let's not forget Serena was the holder of all 4 slams at one point. That helps her case having won 4 straight slams, albeit not in a calendar year.
 
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