Serena or Navratilova?

Phoenix1983

G.O.A.T.
Who would you prefer to see as the No 2 female of all time?

As you'll know from my posting history, I'm no Serena fan. However, for a few reasons (one being that I dislike Navratilova even more, and think she is incredibly insecure about anyone "surpassing" her status), I'd like Serena to surpass Navratilova and become the consensus No 2.

I admit, I don't want her passing Graf though. :)
 

ScottleeSV

Hall of Fame
I expect she'll pass Navratilova sooner rather than later (next year, in other words). Steffi is another matter, and yet, that's not out of the question either. Just depends whether or not Serena can stay as fit as she is now for another 2/3 years.
 

Phoenix1983

G.O.A.T.
Impossible comparison. Circumstances are totally different.

If we exclude doubles (as we should - but Serena is strong there as well if you want to bring it in), then Serena surpasses Nav when she wins her 19th slam. Admittedly Nav has the 9 Wimbledons, a huge record. But Serena, in the first half of her career, dominated a stronger era

It's only a matter of time before the majority consider Serena > Navratilova.
 

FrontHeadlock

Hall of Fame
Idk, Navratilova was in 32 major singles finals, and reached the final of the YEC 14 times, winning 8 of them. I can't give it to Serena for just having one additional major unless she has something else going for her too.
 

granddog29

Banned
Serena, not only since I am a Serena fan, but Navratilova comes across as majorly jaded. She was very butthurt when Graf passed her, and now the Serena GOAT talk heating up, she is getting even more sour and bitter. It is funny while most rate Navratilova over Evert as a player these days, Evert sure comes across way better as a gracious all time great player and person than Martina does these days. She readily praises Serena and openly roots for her and others chasing greatness, and does not have a huge hang up on her own place in history. She knows she is one of the best players in history herself so has no reason to be jealous of others, and is happy to be involved in the game and see it progress and grow. She also looks lovely and classy as always in her commentary and publicity work, and is soft spoken and eloquent.

Martina still shamelessly promotes herself as GOAT on air, when in reality that ship sailed 15 plus years ago with Graf already, and Serena is merely pushing her down yet another rung. She cant handle it, and it is almost hilarious to watch her obvious bitterness. Her whole self worth seems to revolve around deluding herself she is still considered the female GOAT.
 

cknobman

Legend
Serena, not only since I am a Serena fan, but Navratilova comes across as majorly jaded. She was very butthurt when Graf passed her, and now the Serena GOAT talk heating up, she is getting even more sour and bitter. It is funny while most rate Navratilova over Evert as a player these days, Evert sure comes across way better as a gracious all time great player and person than Martina does these days. She readily praises Serena and openly roots for her and others chasing greatness, and does not have a huge hang up on her own place in history. She knows she is one of the best players in history herself so has no reason to be jealous of others, and is happy to be involved in the game and see it progress and grow.

Martina still shamelessly promotes herself as GOAT on air, when in reality that ship sailed 15 plus years ago with Graf already, and Serena is merely pushing her down yet another rung. She cant handle it, and it is almost hilarious to watch her obvious bitterness. Her whole self worth seems to revolve around deluding herself she is still considered the female GOAT.

Lets not focus on egos and personalities because they have nothing to do with determining GOAT.

In terms of accomplishments Nav is still easily ahead of Serena.

There is no "stronger era" crap arguments for Serena either. The tour has been a total joke for the last 5 years.
 

sureshs

Bionic Poster
If we exclude doubles (as we should - but Serena is strong there as well if you want to bring it in), then Serena surpasses Nav when she wins her 19th slam. Admittedly Nav has the 9 Wimbledons, a huge record. But Serena, in the first half of her career, dominated a stronger era

It's only a matter of time before the majority consider Serena > Navratilova.

Nav lived in a different time, faced different challenges, weak era on one hand and being the pioneer on the other, social issues, wood rackets, fast courts and so on
 
Idk, Navratilova was in 32 major singles finals, and reached the final of the YEC 14 times, winning 8 of them. I can't give it to Serena for just having one additional major unless she has something else going for her too.

also martina had more than twice as many weeks at no.1 and played in an era where slams were not as predominant as they are now (especially the AO). overall she won 3 times more singles tournaments. quite a few have been mickymouse events but still she won a lot more.

to me serena is a compiler. apart from 02 she usually only won 1 or 2 slams a year, sometimes none.

martina on the other hand had a more clear peak. she won 12 majors in 5 years while the most serena ever won in a 5 year span was 8.
 

Phoenix1983

G.O.A.T.
Nav lived in a different time, faced different challenges, weak era on one hand and being the pioneer on the other, social issues, wood rackets, fast courts and so on

Serena faced just as many "social issues" as Navratilova, as you well know.
 

granddog29

Banned
Lets not focus on egos and personalities because they have nothing to do with determining GOAT.

In terms of accomplishments Nav is still easily ahead of Serena.

There is no "stronger era" crap arguments for Serena either. The tour has been a total joke for the last 5 years.

If you had ability to read simple english you would be aware this thread was asking what one would like to see happen, and in that case pointing out that Navratilova is a jaded cow is totally appropriate.

As for your last point, Serenas 99-2007 competition already makes her competition >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>. Navratilova's forever. Serena's longevity passes Navratilova's at this point which is a major blow to Martina given that was one of her calling cards. Serena has won 5 slams at 3 different venues, while Wimbledon heavy Martina couldnt win 5 slams anyplace other than Wimbledon and half her total slams at Wimbledon. Serena has a superior overall game with a much better serve, return of serve, and baseline game than Navratilova ever had, while also having comparable athletic ability. Like Serena, Navratilova has only 2 Roland Garros titles. Serena reaches 19 slams and nobody will consider Navratilova better. Many already dont.
 
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ttbrowne

Hall of Fame
As much as I don't like Martina, I'm going with Martina. A slam is a slam is a slam no matter where it's won or how many times. Plus I just don't think Serena can do 3 more years to get there. I will admit to being a Serena-hater tho. Actually proud of it.
 

coloskier

Legend
Martina was a much better all around player than Serena, but nobody hits with more power consistently than Serena. A tough call.
 

Mr.Lob

G.O.A.T.
Who would you prefer to see as the No 2 female of all time?

As you'll know from my posting history, I'm no Serena fan. However, for a few reasons (one being that I dislike Navratilova even more, and think she is incredibly insecure about anyone "surpassing" her status), I'd like Serena to surpass Navratilova and become the consensus No 2.

I admit, I don't want her passing Graf though. :)

Navratilova number one all time. Graff behind Serena.
 

insideguy

G.O.A.T.
If Serena ties or beats her in slams. Then I have to go with Serena. The first half of Serenas career was probably the toughest era of the wta. Martina didnt have to play anybody except Chris And when I say she didnt have to play anybody i literally mean that.. She got older and started losing. Serena isnt. But in retrospect as weak as Martinas era was I still think Steffis was even weaker. Can anyone name anyone in Steffis age group that was any good? And please dont say Sanchez. Vicarro. Seles of course but we know what went on there.
 

KOFS

Rookie
Number 2? Really? Graf only won because Seles was stabbed. Seles was dominating her until then.
 

TERRASTAR18

Hall of Fame
Lets not focus on egos and personalities because they have nothing to do with determining GOAT.

In terms of accomplishments Nav is still easily ahead of Serena.

There is no "stronger era" crap arguments for Serena either. The tour has been a total joke for the last 5 years.

because you say so? at least in this weak era serena still has 3 or 4 rivals vs nav's 1.
 

TERRASTAR18

Hall of Fame
As much as I don't like Martina, I'm going with Martina. A slam is a slam is a slam no matter where it's won or how many times. Plus I just don't think Serena can do 3 more years to get there. I will admit to being a Serena-hater tho. Actually proud of it.

your last sentence disqualifies your entire post." i don't think" is well wishing not evidence.
 

TERRASTAR18

Hall of Fame
also martina had more than twice as many weeks at no.1 and played in an era where slams were not as predominant as they are now (especially the AO). overall she won 3 times more singles tournaments. quite a few have been mickymouse events but still she won a lot more.

to me serena is a compiler. apart from 02 she usually only won 1 or 2 slams a year, sometimes none.

martina on the other hand had a more clear peak. she won 12 majors in 5 years while the most serena ever won in a 5 year span was 8.

some of you posters make no sense! you celebrate nav for winning 3x more tourneys even though you said they were micky mouse meaning weak. so if serena started beating 3rd graders 100 or so times she would move up in your eyes?

and then you think it's more of an accomplishment to win in 5 years in the same conditions against a weak field as opposed to 14 years of chaging speeds of courts, styles of play from hingis/venus/davenport/capriati, then mauresmo/henin/dementieva, then clijsters/stosur/kuznetsova/jankovic to finally lisicki/kerber/sharapova/radwanska/vika.

crazy.
 

a10best

Hall of Fame
Martina because her game can adapt and she changes what the opponent does or else they lose. Serena, a baseliner, would not adapt. Both serves cancel each other out.
 

TERRASTAR18

Hall of Fame
Martina because her game can adapt and she changes what the opponent does or else they lose. Serena, a baseliner, would not adapt. Both serves cancel each other out.

or maybe due to the fact serena had a winning record on all her major rivals she didn't need to.
 

granddog29

Banned
Martina adapted? Hardly, all she did was kamikaze the net no matter how the match was going. If she was losing that way she still kept doing only that. Not that I fault her for that, that was her A-game and pretty much always her best chance to win no matter what, but I dont see how that qualifies as adapating. I have seen Serena adapt her tactics many more times than Navratilova TBH.
 
Serena faced just as many "social issues" as Navratilova, as you well know.

I disagree, yes Martina Navratilova is a lesbian BUT she's also a white woman. Navratilova certainly didn't encounter the same level or amount of bigotry and prejudice as Serena or her sister Venus.

Martina Navratilova did not get judged by the color of her skin, constantly by racist tennis commentators such as Mary Carillo, or negative articles attacking her in the press.

Serena overcome so much, the jealously SOME of the white women on the WTA Tour has for Serena is extreme. Serena said when she lost in Berlin a few years ago she could hear the white women cheering in the lockeroom after her loss.

Martina did not have bigots calling her the N word at her tennis matches still to this DAY. Serena said at the Miami event a few years ago a white man made a racial slur against her and the man was ejected from the match.

Serena Williams had to overcome so much, since she is a black woman dominating women tennis it is STILL A PREDOMINATELY WHITE SPORT.

Martina did not experience the horrible things Serena has in Indian Wells with a racist all white country club set in Indian Wells booing, and jeering her.
 
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Midaso240

Legend
I disagree, yes Martina Navratilova is a lesbian BUT she's also a white woman. Navratilova certainly didn't encounter the same level or amount of bigotry and prejudice as Serena or her sister Venus.

Martina Navratilova did not get judged by the color of her skin, constantly by racist tennis commentators such as Mary Carillo, or negative articles attacking her in the press.

Serena overcome so much, the jealously SOME of the white women on the WTA Tour has for Serena is extreme. Serena said when she lost in Berlin a few years ago she could hear the white women cheering in the lockeroom after her loss.

Martina did not have bigots calling her the N word at her tennis matches still to this DAY. Serena said at the Miami event a few years ago a white man made a racial slur against her and the man was ejected from the match.

Serena Williams had to overcome so much, since she is a black woman dominating women tennis it is STILL A PREDOMINATELY WHITE SPORT.

Martina did not experience the horrible things Serena has in Indian Wells with a racist all white country club set in Indian Wells booing, and jeering her.
Sort of lame how the Williams Sisters don't go to one of the best tournaments on the tour just because of a few remarks a decade ago,there's a new crowd there now.
 

Arafel

Professional
I disagree, yes Martina Navratilova is a lesbian BUT she's also a white woman. Navratilova certainly didn't encounter the same level or amount of bigotry and prejudice as Serena or her sister Venus.

Martina Navratilova did not get judged by the color of her skin, constantly by racist tennis commentators such as Mary Carillo, or negative articles attacking her in the press.

Serena overcome so much, the jealously SOME of the white women on the WTA Tour has for Serena is extreme. Serena said when she lost in Berlin a few years ago she could hear the white women cheering in the lockeroom after her loss.

Martina did not have bigots calling her the N word at her tennis matches still to this DAY. Serena said at the Miami event a few years ago a white man made a racial slur against her and the man was ejected from the match.

Serena Williams had to overcome so much, since she is a black woman dominating women tennis it is STILL A PREDOMINATELY WHITE SPORT.

Martina did not experience the horrible things Serena has in Indian Wells with a racist all white country club set in Indian Wells booing, and jeering her.

Are you on drugs? For someone who has the board name you do, you display a stunning lack of understanding.

Has Serena EVER faced the pressure that Martina did? No. You see, Martina was worried that if she came out, the WTA's major sponsor, Avon, would drop their support of the tour. And in fact, Avon did shortly after the NY Daily News pushed Martina out of the closet. She was quotes as saying, "If I come out and start talking, women’s tennis is going to be hurt. I have heard that if I come out—if one more top player talks about this—then Avon will pull out as a sponsor." this was right after the palimony suit against Billie Jean King.

Contrast that with Serena, for whom most of the USTA and the press have fallen down at her feet. Has Serena ever faced the pressure of fearing that the future of the tour was on her back? No.
 

AngieB

Banned
Martina Navratilova played during an era before the homogenization of surfaces and at the beginning of the Open Era. She played at the US Open and Australian Open on different surfaces during her career. She did make more of an effort to play at the substandard event Australia offered pre-1988 than other players of previous generations (minus Margaret Court).

Both Martina and Serena hold their non-calendar year slam and both women changed the physicality of the sport, however Martina dominated women's tennis in a way that Serena has never been able to accomplish. Martina did this after age 25 and during the same era as her chief rival (Chris Evert) had also accumulated 18 grand slam singles. Serena Williams NEVER had to face a "Chris Evert-type" historical tennis figure consistently during her generation. The best Serena faced consistently was Venus and Justine who both hold seven grand slam singles titles. It is why I believe Serena's generation is historically weaker.

Having watched both Martina and Serena throughout their entire careers, Serena's dominance came in sporadic waves, whereas, Martina's was ever-present. Inside and outside the majors, Martina dominated. Serena dominated the majors, not as much outside.

If Serena ties Martina and Chris at 18, Martina and Chris have the career statistics to lay claim to a better position historically. However, once Serena wins number 19, there is a great argument that catapults her beyond Martina and Chris.

Beyond Martina and Chris, she has Helen Wills Moody, Steffi Graf and Margaret Court to contend with historically. And before the jabs begin, please consider this fact:

Helen Wills Moody won all of her 19 grand slam events never having played in Australia. Steffi Graf is the only other player to who have won the most outside of Australia with 18.

None of these ladies I've discussed dominated world tennis like Helen Wills Moody did. None of them.

And, exit.

AngieB
 

vandre

Hall of Fame
Lets not focus on egos and personalities because they have nothing to do with determining GOAT.

In terms of accomplishments Nav is still easily ahead of Serena.

There is no "stronger era" crap arguments for Serena either. The tour has been a total joke for the last 5 years.

this. I don't like mn any more than I like serena but I think that martina's career accomplishments are almost out of Serena's reach as of yet. specifically her number of wta titles (167) is huge gap which I don't think serena will play enough tourneys to bridge (serena has 55). the bulk of martina's resume was compiled in the midst of 2 legitimate rivalries (evert and graf) in addition to some other nasty competition. who has played graf or evert to Serena's Navratilova? venus (who didn't show up to the last finals she played against sis)?
 
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