Serve is inconsistent, comments appreciated (video)

Lately my serve has been all over the place. Some days I can put it whereever I want, some days I can't get it in at all, especially the second serve. I'm thinking this has something to do with technique, so I'm wondering if any of you would be so kind to give me advice. I posted here before and got some great advice. Here's the video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kwayd8aRim4

In it, I have serves, both flat and spin, from the front and side, and at 30 fps and 240 fps. It goes: 3 flat, 3 spin, 2 flat (slow motion), 3 spin (sm), then from the side 3 flat, 3 spin, 3 flat (sm), 3 spin (sm).

Thanks for watching.
 

LeeD

Bionic Poster
Serve is not something that comes with a set number of reps. Even after 4 years of full time tennis, the serve is still evolving and can go awry at a moment's notice.
For some players, even after TEN years of full time tennis, the serve goes awry at the most inopportune moments.
That said, while you have a nice powerful solid swing, your control of your BODY seems very relaxed, which in itself can cause inconsistencies.
Forget Federer. Look at the serves of all the other top 50 ATP guys. The arm is loose, long, and relaxed, like yours. But the control of the body is more direct, is tighter, and the legs do the same thing for every serve.
Try to keep your arm the same, tighten up control of your body, and remember each different kind of serve to each different location requires a minute CHANGE of swingpath and toss location/body movement under the ball.
 

Lukhas

Legend
I don't see anything fundamentally wrong with your serve. Maybe you could toss a tiny bit more in line with your right shoulder, and that's nitpicking. However, if you find you're hitting the net too often, then you need to transfer your energy steeper upwards and towards the ball instead of forward and towards the box.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WlPVdppfYGs
 
There's a lot of good parts to your serve, but I won't mention them (so don't think I'm being overly harsh). Anyway, your racket drop is straight down the middle of your back, your arm and wrist seem tight, and you're basically sidearming the serve. The racket drop should be on the right side of your body, and you should swing directly up to contact rather than around to the side.
 

Chas Tennis

G.O.A.T.
Lately my serve has been all over the place. Some days I can put it whereever I want, some days I can't get it in at all, especially the second serve. I'm thinking this has something to do with technique, so I'm wondering if any of you would be so kind to give me advice. I posted here before and got some great advice. Here's the video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kwayd8aRim4

In it, I have serves, both flat and spin, from the front and side, and at 30 fps and 240 fps. It goes: 3 flat, 3 spin, 2 flat (slow motion), 3 spin (sm), then from the side 3 flat, 3 spin, 3 flat (sm), 3 spin (sm).

Thanks for watching.

When you go to high speed video the resolution is reduced. Your images are too small - make them bigger especially since the resolution is poor for your camera's high speed video.

Video improvements:

1) get closer so that only your upper body shows. Also, for overall cover so that below feet to above racket is covered. No dead space of the foreground should be in the frame.

2) Shoot from behind the server but also with the camera looking along the ball's trajectory(toward the center of the court the ball is being served to). The camera position has to be changed for the deuce and add courts.

3) To see the ball and racket find better contrast. Try to find a better contrasting background, either dark, trees in shadow, etc., or bright, sky, etc. The ball and racket in sunlit trees does not provide good contrast.

4) Do only 240 fps for the serve.

5) Video also from the side of the ball's trajectory - this will show how open or closed the racket face is at impact.

So far, because of the video quality I can't see how well you are doing the ISR serve. You might be more just swinging than rotating the arm. When the racket is too closed the balls go into the net, too open they go long. ? You objective should be to see your internal shoulder rotation in high speed video - that's your serve......

240 fps high speed video and impact. The racket is close to vertical at impact when viewed from the side of the trajectory on a high level serve. But around impact the racket is also going from open to closed at a rate of roughly 1°/ millisecond. At 240 fps, or 4.2 milliseconds per frame, the racket goes from open to closed about 4° between frames.
436443145_960.jpg

https://vimeo.com/65434652
 
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SystemicAnomaly

Bionic Poster
As mentioned by posters above, there is quite a bit that is right with your serve.

However, your tossing arms never goes all the way up. You should let your tossing hand follow the ball upward after the release so that the arm is nearly vertical. Not only does your left arm not move all the way up, it starts to drop back down too early. It should be extended upward during your trophy phase. Your arm appears to start dropping even before your racket gets to the trophy position.

Get it up and leave it up longer. The left arm should not start to drop until the racket head starts to drop from the trophy position. This should give you a better shoulder tilt. A fully extended left hand should provide a superior spatial reference to the position of your ball toss. This improved reference should help to produce a more precise upward swing to the ball. It should also help with the timing of that swing. Both of these aspects should help to produce a more consistent serve.
 

LeeD

Bionic Poster
Also...check net height.
Better to serve 5 in a row the same, same location, same spin, same speed, then change to another 5, since you have a lot of run time on the vid. That kind of vid really shows inconsistencies, while your two serves show too much variety to pinpoint.
Seems you are just serving thru the motions, not really concentrating on placement at all.
 

crash1929

Hall of Fame
Try changing where your racquet is at the peak height of your tossing arm. Look up the pros videos and see where their racquet head is at the peak of their tossing arm.... It looks to me like you do get your hitting arm and racquet into the trophy spot eventually, however it seem uncoordinated with your tossing arm. (It may be a style thing or then again it may be something hurting your timing and consistency)

Try experimenting having your racquet head pointed up and slightly towards your head closer to the time when your tossing arm peaks in height.

If you freeze the video now at the peak height of your tossing arm your racquet is parallel to the ground which looks odd and means the racquet has to travel longer to get up to and hit the ball- longer path may equal more errors.

So if you get the racquet head up and closer to contact point when your tossing arm peaks I think that will help you.

That is what I'm seeing- but I'm happy to hear others input on my advice.

Good luck and look forward to seeing videos of your improvement.
 

mbm0912

Hall of Fame
Lately my serve has been all over the place. Some days I can put it whereever I want, some days I can't get it in at all, especially the second serve. I'm thinking this has something to do with technique, so I'm wondering if any of you would be so kind to give me advice. I posted here before and got some great advice. Here's the video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kwayd8aRim4

In it, I have serves, both flat and spin, from the front and side, and at 30 fps and 240 fps. It goes: 3 flat, 3 spin, 2 flat (slow motion), 3 spin (sm), then from the side 3 flat, 3 spin, 3 flat (sm), 3 spin (sm).

Thanks for watching.

That is a beautiful serve.
 

tennis_balla

Hall of Fame
Your left arm drops too early, pulling you down and to the left. Thats where you lose your rhythm on your serve and don't utilize it fully because you don't completely go after the ball because of it. Thats where I would start.
 

10sGrinder

New User
Try changing where your racquet is at the peak height of your tossing arm. Look up the pros videos and see where their racquet head is at the peak of their tossing arm.... It looks to me like you do get your hitting arm and racquet into the trophy spot eventually, however it seem uncoordinated with your tossing arm. (It may be a style thing or then again it may be something hurting your timing and consistency)

Try experimenting having your racquet head pointed up and slightly towards your head closer to the time when your tossing arm peaks in height.

If you freeze the video now at the peak height of your tossing arm your racquet is parallel to the ground which looks odd and means the racquet has to travel longer to get up to and hit the ball- longer path may equal more errors.

So if you get the racquet head up and closer to contact point when your tossing arm peaks I think that will help you.

That is what I'm seeing- but I'm happy to hear others input on my advice.

Good luck and look forward to seeing videos of your improvement.

That was my observation also. It seems you are late getting to the party - need to get that racquet prepared earlier so you don't play catch-up.
 

suryanaga

New User
As a few of the previous posters have mentioned, you are late getting into your trophy position, making your wrist snap/pronation inconsistent and to long. Also, try to actually hold a trophy position, even for a quarter of a second.

Watch how Federer sets up his arms for his serve (different footwork style I realise, but same principle)

http://youtu.be/kGWdoNobnCM

Perhaps try to accentuate getting your racquet arm into position faster so that you're consistently ready to send your wrist into a rapid pronation.
 

LeeD

Bionic Poster
Consistency...
You, at your level, have to practice 3 serves in a row, the same kind, the same location, the same power.
You seem to start semi flat up the middle, wander to the left center of box almost, then go back nearly to up the middle, then wander again.
Hit 3 serves the same spin, location, and speed.
Then we start talking about the need to practice keeping your loose body together the same way each and every serve.
 

SystemicAnomaly

Bionic Poster
Looks like you are getting your tossing arm to a somewhat better (nearly vertical) position after your ball release. Try to really reach upward even more (w/o bending your elbow). Even tho' you are getting your arm a bit higher than you had had previously, you are still pulling it down too early.

You appears to bringing your racket up to your trophy position somewhat like Roddick does. In the image below, it can be seen that Andy has his left arm fully extended even before he gets his racket to the trophy position. Andy pauses (more or less) during his racket prep early and then goes thru his trophy position fairly quickly. He pulls starts to pull his left arm down SLIGHTLY earlier than other elite servers. However, you never quite get the arm up as much and you pull it down even earlier than ARod does.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B9iN1qPaKtw
2886.jpg


See if you can get closer to the images below. The tossing arm is still up when the racket gets to the position shown.

008.jpg
lens11112831_1274506418improve-tennis-serve1.jpg
 

Curiosity

Professional
I agree with many of the comments above as to what they notice, though my interpretation differs.

First, considering Roddick: His oddity is that he would essentially launch his serve with the racket intentionally no where near the usual top of the racquet lift/swing back. That has several effects I would not try to copy. He discovered the technique fooling around in practice as a teenager...and liked it. That technique pretty much requires that the initiation of the swing differ for the second serve, which is a losing concept. I'll never forget watching Fed outserve him in the extended Wimbledon final.

Your tossing arm. I agree with all that start with that: The tossing arm has an important role. I agree with all who say you should get the arm all the way up, relatively vertical.

The tossing arm plays a positioning role, a timing role, and a rotational velocity-boosting role. Correct use gets your tossing shoulder high and keeps it high until you WANT the tossing arm/shoulder to come down....which is when your racquet's going back, your legs are extending, and you want your UB rotation, your hitting shoulder rise. The timing role is big: You really want to synchronize your toss/drop of the tossing arm to your SIDE... to your leg extension and your racquet's passage over the top and back. Watch some pros in slo mo.

You really don't want your tossing arm to drop until your leg extension starts. Tossing arm elbow pull-in: If you try it a few times without a ball, you'll find that if you let the arm drop a little (with muscle...) to gain some momentum, then pulling the elbow in will accelerate your UB around just a bit. You want that to happen as your racquet hits its lowest point, to help power the hitting elbow up. (It's the same, really, as timing your forehand off-arm elbow pull-in to the instant of your initial forward UB rotation, forward motion of the hitting hand, in order to add a well-timed if minor boost to acceleration of the UB/shoulder rotation.

Your shoulders come around (not over) too far, in my view. Consider looking at, say, Fed and Sampras slo mo clips, and form your own opinion. Two very different serves, but neither comes around so fully (not talking about coming over with the hitting shoulder, but around.)

I would guess the tossing arm synchronization issue and the slight over-rotation issue affect your control up into contact ESPECIALLY on second twist or slice serves. (If you're going to copy Roddick, you'd better do it perfectly in every detail.....)

Fix the tossing arm use, especially sychronization, come more over and less around with your hitting shoulder, and you've got a kick a_s serve.
 
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SystemicAnomaly

Bionic Poster
Some good slow-mo sequences of the clean & effective Raonic serve. Notice the extension of his left arm when he racket is at the conventional trophy position. As his racket head starts to drop, his legs extend. His arm is still fairly high as the racket head starts to drop.

The timing of his arm pull-down assists the upward acceleration of the opposite (right) shoulder -- notice how the shoulder tilt changes and his shoulder-over-shoulder cartwheel action.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zkgZOvm7ySA&t=45s
 

LeeD

Bionic Poster
Good we go about this in different ways.
One, technique, technical, and analysis.
Two, the way you practice consistency in serving.
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9y6_QbHDfOQ

New video. Still going only down the tee, or trying to. The first clip is flat serves as hard as I can hit. The second is more relaxed, the third is topspin serves.

How does the tossing arm look here? Perhaps closer to vertical. Maybe I should be arching my back further to get it even more pointing upward. How does the trophy position look?
 

AHJS

Professional
Good mechanics. To be picky, I would say wait a split second longer after before you propel your legs up into the serve. This will help a lot, but good serve :)
 

LeeD

Bionic Poster
Nothing really technically wrong, except for the technical guys who think technique is more important than results.
Your problem is lack of focus on specific target. At your level, you should be hitting those center T serves within 2' of each other, not varying from almost right of center to on the T.
Maybe your targeting is not correct. Try aiming for a specific spot on the net cord, not in the service box. Keep the serves well within a foot, follow thru exactly the same, prep exactly the same, swing exactly the same, make it the ball land just over the net cord at the same spot every time.
 

SystemicAnomaly

Bionic Poster
^ There are several reasons that the tossing arm can be an important factor for the consistency of the serve. The outstretched hand (near-vertical arm) helps to accurately/precisely locate the ball is space. If the arm is not fully extended or pulls down early, the spatial reference is not optimal. An optimal determination of the ball (toss) location will yield better data (information) for the correct swing path and racket face orientation for a consistent serve.

The extended hand will also provide a better indicator for the timing of the racket head drop and the upward swing. This improved timing should yield improved consistency for the serve. Thirdly, by getting and keeping the hand/arm up longer, the front shoulder stays up a bit longer for a better shoulder tilt prior to the racket head drop. By pulling the left arm down at the proper time, an improved shoulder-over-shoulder cartwheel action and acceleration should be easier to accomplish.
 

LeeD

Bionic Poster
My 2 cents...
Almost all pros, and most D-1 players have really high toss hands, somewhat decent form from trophy on, and have done some amount of practice.
So, how many of those guys and gals have CONSISTENT serves? Watching tournaments and TV, I'd say, they are about as consistent as US.
US, meaning 30% flat first serve attempts.
75% fast spin serve attempts.
95% second serves with placement to backhand or forehand side.
Yes, they can hit harder, but they also have played more tennis and practiced much more...I hope.
So, OP serve problem, inconsistent, is not from flawed form, but from lack of adaquate practice, similar situation to all good players.
 
My 2 cents...
Almost all pros, and most D-1 players have really high toss hands, somewhat decent form from trophy on, and have done some amount of practice.
So, how many of those guys and gals have CONSISTENT serves? Watching tournaments and TV, I'd say, they are about as consistent as US.
US, meaning 30% flat first serve attempts.
75% fast spin serve attempts.
95% second serves with placement to backhand or forehand side.
Yes, they can hit harder, but they also have played more tennis and practiced much more...I hope.
So, OP serve problem, inconsistent, is not from flawed form, but from lack of adaquate practice, similar situation to all good players.

This makes no sense at all. You're saying that D1 college players are no more consistent at serving than rec players? Who are these GOAT rec players?
 

LeeD

Bionic Poster
Think about this!
YOU, rec player, first FLAT serves, might go in 35%, practice or match play.
SAME with pros.
YOU, rec player, topspin moderately fast first serves, might go in 75%.
SAME with pros.
YOU, rec player, topspin of some kind second serve, might go in 95%.
SAME with pros.
Yes, the pros up the ante by 30 mph on flats, and maybe 20 on first spin serves, but the PERCENTAGE is still the same.
We're not talking about 3.0 beginner servers.
 
Think about this!
YOU, rec player, first FLAT serves, might go in 35%, practice or match play.
SAME with pros.
YOU, rec player, topspin moderately fast first serves, might go in 75%.
SAME with pros.
YOU, rec player, topspin of some kind second serve, might go in 95%.
SAME with pros.
Yes, the pros up the ante by 30 mph on flats, and maybe 20 on first spin serves, but the PERCENTAGE is still the same.
We're not talking about 3.0 beginner servers.

The pros are placing their serves much closer to the lines than I am. If they were to aim at safer targets, their percentages would go up. And the vast majority of rec players aren't capable of hitting flat, slice, topspin, and twist serves let alone placing them.
 

Curiosity

Professional
Think about this!
YOU, rec player, first FLAT serves, might go in 35%, practice or match play.
SAME with pros.
YOU, rec player, topspin moderately fast first serves, might go in 75%.
SAME with pros.
YOU, rec player, topspin of some kind second serve, might go in 95%.
SAME with pros.
Yes, the pros up the ante by 30 mph on flats, and maybe 20 on first spin serves, but the PERCENTAGE is still the same.
We're not talking about 3.0 beginner servers.

I fairly hate it when a comment purports to speak for other players. You have no idea how I or some imagined 'average' poster plays. It reminds me of those "don't copy the pro strokes because you're all physically inferior" type diatribes. Not being a pro (even 'not playing on a college team') isn't an index of reflexes, vision, foot speed, or other attributes of rec players. Most upper and upper-middle prime physical specimens in my region don't seek to be athletes, but physicians, attorneys, family business managers, and so forth, and with good social and financial reason. Well-tutored tennis, squash, and golf skills are quite common here. Assuming a 35% average non-fault on flat first serves is simply absurd. Speak to technique, not your made-up statistics. They are meaningless and therefore support no useful proposition.
 

arche3

Banned
I fairly hate it when a comment purports to speak for other players. You have no idea how I or some imagined 'average' poster plays. It reminds me of those "don't copy the pro strokes because you're all physically inferior" type diatribes. Not being a pro (even 'not playing on a college team') isn't an index of reflexes, vision, foot speed, or other attributes of rec players. Most upper and upper-middle prime physical specimens in my region don't seek to be athletes, but physicians, attorneys, family business managers, and so forth, and with good social and financial reason. Well-tutored tennis, squash, and golf skills are quite common here. Assuming a 35% average non-fault on flat first serves is simply absurd. Speak to technique, not your made-up statistics. They are meaningless and therefore support no useful proposition.

I think leeD gets 30 % flat serves in now so he assumed everyone else it not as good as him so they can't get better percentage than him.
 

GoudX

Professional
Lately my serve has been all over the place. Some days I can put it whereever I want, some days I can't get it in at all, especially the second serve. I'm thinking this has something to do with technique, so I'm wondering if any of you would be so kind to give me advice. I posted here before and got some great advice. Here's the video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kwayd8aRim4

In it, I have serves, both flat and spin, from the front and side, and at 30 fps and 240 fps. It goes: 3 flat, 3 spin, 2 flat (slow motion), 3 spin (sm), then from the side 3 flat, 3 spin, 3 flat (sm), 3 spin (sm).

Thanks for watching.

That looks like a fairly nice motion generally and you seem to be making fairly nice contact with a fairly fast and relaxed looking swing. This gives you a great platform to work from. Also you have great leg bend - which is one of the reasons you are generating a fair bit of power.

My tips for you:
  • The easiest fix - You appear to be missing more shots into the net than long. Simply aim higher over the net until you are missing just as much each way! If you are missing as many long as into the net, then you should be getting the maximum number possible into the court without changing the swing.
  • Next another easy fix which will let you hit with a bit more topspin on your serves, which will increase consistency. Your ball toss is too far to the right. This is a common problem for players who use a step-up stance, and it prevents your ability to get over the ball to produce topspin - which you need to do if you want to hit a consistent AND powerful serve (unless you are Karlovic). With a toss that far to the right you can only hit slice or flat serves easily. This is easy as it is just a small change to the toss, and a slight change to the swing path to accommodate more topspin production.
  • Next is a much more difficult fix, which will help you generate more power and spin with extra consistency. Your toss is not far enough forward into the court. From the side on angle you can see that your toss is roughly in line with your shoulders and you are extending directly upwards into it. For an ideal serve your body should be moving upwards and forwards like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fcSJAHXHDvM . You don't need to do it quite as extreme as Isner, but generating pace from forward momentum allows you to use the arm to swing slower or apply more spin, which increase consistency. Plus a further forward contact has a wider margin for error. This is more difficult to learn as moving the toss further into the court requires you to spend time relearning the balance on the serve and will initially reduce consistency. Furthermore if you put the toss further into the court than you can handle you will start hitting even more into the net. Try tossing the ball half a foot further forward and make sure you follow it in with your hips and explode upwards into it. If you just lean for it you will miss a lot. Also be careful not to start overstepping the line!
  • Another easy fix which might help... If you keep your shoulders facing the side wall a bit more rather than turning them towards the back wall you will gain a lot of consistency at the expense of some power. Look at how Raonic/Federer's shoulders always stay in a line towards the target on the take-back, this improves consistency a lot! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zkgZOvm7ySA
  • On a tactical note - IMO you are putting too much power on your spin serves, they should be about 70% of the speed of your flat serves, or slower if you are going for extreme spin. Try to slow them down but hit them with more kick and you will find they are more consistent due to the reduced pace and extra spin, AND the extra spin will make them tougher for the opponent to return. For instance, this serve is fairly slow by pro standards, but is able to completely flummox Melzer https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKSsDTpYND4.

Keep working on that serve and you could have a REALLY dangerous weapon on your hands!
 

LeeD

Bionic Poster
Why do you kids serve topspin first serves? Because your first flat serve percentage is too low, around 30%.
Now, deciding to go for higher percentage, you hit a hard topspin first serve, so it goes in what? Around better than half the time, or close to 70% hopefully.
Not me, mine go in around 45%.
Now, assuming you do know how to serve in tennis, your second serves should go in close to 95%, aiming for backhand, forehand, or into the body.
Duh, that is no revelation.
It IS if you can't serve at all.
Yes, the pros hit harder and closer to the lines, but the pro returner's can reach wider and punish anything WE can serve.
 
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