Serve tips!

[eah123]

Thanks, I had been thinking that to reach the preferred contact point I needed to get it out there even further to the right, but it seems that isn’t the case. It definitely comes more naturally to do as you suggest but will try rainbowing it a bit further into the court.

This picture from @Dragy really illustrates the correct contact point/toss location, which aligns very well with the T when serving from the deuce side.

Using the clock analogy, this is between 11:30 and 12 o'clock, whereas your current toss is around 1 or 2 o'clock. A good toss location will also help you get the proper forearm-racquet angle that @Chas Tennis is describing, which allows you to use internal shoulder rotation for racquet head speed/power.

 

[Mungo]

Can you tell if my wrist orientation starts cattywampus from the very beginning? I remember starting to point the hitting surface slightly upward during the initiation of takeback (no doubt from some youtube video). Pretty sure I am not using an extreme grip….just continental with maybe an overly aggressive trigger finger. So that orientation would seem to be all wrist. I guess I am trying to nail down at what point this flaw is introduced.

 

[Dragy]

Yes, I didn’t say it very well but the forearm-racquet angle thing is what I was trying to get at when I said contact position. I will go back to more of a fist grip and see what that brings. Dragy it is amazing your grasp of English to pick up on that….first or second language?

Hey, I’m not native speaker/writer which brings me to funny word constructions at times but I love to read and listen in English, and my job was associated with international communications for almost a decade, so I could generally get understood with what I was trying to say

 

[Mungo]

I had some small hope that the fist grip would alter the arm-racquet angle at contact issue and it didn’t, and it didn’t really help the wrist action either. So not unexpected but it seems a bigger tear down is needed if I want it to be much better. I guess I have to decide if I want to live with this relative weakness in my game or try to be something better.

 

[Fxanimator1]

I had some small hope that the fist grip would alter the arm-racquet angle at contact issue and it didn’t, and it didn’t really help the wrist action either. So not unexpected but it seems a bigger tear down is needed if I want it to be much better. I guess I have to decide if I want to live with this relative weakness in my game or try to be something better.

“ Try to be something better”. Get a good coach that knows how to serve and work with them. The boost in confidence will be well worth it overall.

 

[Dragy]

I had some small hope that the fist grip would alter the arm-racquet angle at contact issue and it didn’t, and it didn’t really help the wrist action either. So not unexpected but it seems a bigger tear down is needed if I want it to be much better. I guess I have to decide if I want to live with this relative weakness in my game or try to be something better.

Have a vid?

 

[Mungo]

Only focusing on the fist grip and getting used to the slightly different geometry involved….

 

[Dragy]

Only focusing on the fist grip and getting used to the slightly different geometry involved….

Grip looks better as you prep, but proper geometry still evфdes you try letting the ball drop more. Imagine if you slapped the ball straight down in rage - how will it be? Watch Rublev for inspiration

 

[Mungo]

I could probably manage to rage smash some balls into the ground. Next tip: “now do something in between your current stroke and hitting it into the ground!”

 

[Dragy]

I could probably manage to rage smash some balls into the ground. Next tip: “now do something in between your current stroke and hitting it into the ground!”

There is some reason you do what you do. You can try to mechnically work on the motion, or find some analogy to trick your mind into breaking the habit.

 

[xFullCourtTenniSx]

I could probably manage to rage smash some balls into the ground. Next tip: “now do something in between your current stroke and hitting it into the ground!”

Not gonna work.

 

[Chas Tennis]

This subject involves the risk of shoulder impingement. I would take advice about this subject only from well qualified sources such as Todd Ellenbecker or David Whiteside before anyone on this forum. I refer to Ellenbecker and his video "Rotator Cuff Injury" which is available from Tennis Resources for a small membership fee.

You appear to still be ignoring my warnings and your serve appears to do exactly what Ellenbecker says not to do. When you get advice from the forum on safety issues search that subject from well qualified sources before experimenting.

@yossarian said that many shoulder injuries are internal impingement injuries vs sub-acromial impingement injuries (the term relates to an a tendon tear location and not directly to ISR). That was news to me. I found and posted a baseball video on internal impingement injuries but have not found one on tennis.

Internal Impingement | ShoulderDoc

).

Nevertheless, ATP servers use the arm orientation that Ellenbecker recommends. Your arm orientation indicates that you are ignoring advice from well qualified sources while experimenting with learning ISR, a very difficult thing to learn. You should stop serving and learn what you can from videos and Ellenbecker.

Some old posts from a long thread discussing this issue follow.

 

[Chas Tennis]

Shoulder to upper arm orientation from tennis researcher David Whiteside.

Question for Chas Tennis about "High Level Servers"

The usual suspects in 2014. https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/index.php?threads/vaidisovas-high-elbow-in-her-serve.513485/#post-8756768 There was also a long TW post on Vaidisovas's high arm on her serve. I can't search it now although there are scattered references to it. The technique of...

tt.tennis-warehouse.com

Observe ATP servers at impact yourself and see what they are doing. Shoulders line to upper arm line.

Compare this to your serve.

 

[Chas Tennis]

Question for Chas Tennis about "High Level Servers"

The usual suspects in 2014. https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/index.php?threads/vaidisovas-high-elbow-in-her-serve.513485/#post-8756768 There was also a long TW post on Vaidisovas's high arm on her serve. I can't search it now although there are scattered references to it. The technique of...

tt.tennis-warehouse.com

 

[Chas Tennis]

See video on internal shoulder impingement. The connect between this baseball pitch video and a tennis serve is not clear to me. We need an equivalent video for the tennis serve.

On tennis strokes and injuries.

Upper Extremity Injuries in Tennis Players: Diagnosis, Treatment, and Management

Upper extremity tennis injuries are most commonly characterized as overuse injuries to the wrist, elbow and shoulder. The complex anatomy of these structures and their interaction with biomechanical properties of tennis strokes contributes to the diagnostic ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

One Issue of interest for serving - shoulder injuries
Internal Shoulder Impingement vs Subacomial Impingement

Internal Shoulder Impingement

Subacromial Impingement

Subacromial Impingement | ShoulderDoc

www.shoulderdoc.co.uk

We would next like to know the percentages of tennis servers that are injured by Internal Shoulder Impingement vs Subacromial Impingement.

 

[yossarian]

You appear to still be ignoring my warnings and your serve appears to do exactly what Ellenbecker says not to do

Bud, it's not that easy just to will yourself to change your mechanics.

Any advice on actually helping this guy aside from "just do it?"

 

[Chas Tennis]

Bud, it's not that easy just to will yourself to change your mechanics.

Any advice on actually helping this guy aside from "just do it?"

You said that you were studying in a doctorate program of physical therapy and posted on some important information on internal shoulder impingement. What is your opinion of the OP's upper arm angle and Ellenbecker's advice?

Elbow Shadow - A shadow appears at the elbow in frames 4, 5, 6 and 7. This shadow does not appear to show much ISR after impact. This shadow could be observed better and at different times of the day. The near straight arm could also be observed without serving to see the quality of the shadows with various arm tilts and existing light conditions. A bone or a tendon near its attachment to the upper arm bone is the best indicator of ISR. Shadows are often seen in pro serve videos.

If you add ISR to your serving technique, you risk of injury will increase - my opinion from interpreting Ellenbecker's work. Please don't.

 

[Fxanimator1]

You said that you were studying in a doctorate program of physical therapy and posted on some important information on internal shoulder impingement. What is your opinion of the OP's upper arm angle and Ellenbecker's advice.

My wrist feels injured just looking at these images. It’s like his whole serve is based on lower arm action.

 

[Mungo]

I think the problem is well understood and beyond dispute…the solution is not. Since I am not in any discomfort am going to keep playing. Perhaps this problem can only be addressed by a coach…at least when it’s on my dime I can insist on our focus being on solving instead of admiring the problem.

 

[xFullCourtTenniSx]

Bud, it's not that easy just to will yourself to change your mechanics.

Any advice on actually helping this guy aside from "just do it?"

How about, "you know exactly what to do, so just do it"? This all started because he followed a classic piece of bad advice. Now he's doubling down. Honestly, his best road to fixing it, is to ignore all the bad advice here and get a good serve coach or recognize what's wrong (which is about the only thing Chas is good for), and asking himself what caused the problem and problem solve ways to fix it himself. Luckily for OP, it's being pointed out to him BEFORE he trashes his shoulder and wrist.

I think the problem is well understood and beyond dispute…the solution is not. Since I am not in any discomfort am going to keep playing. Perhaps this problem can only be addressed by a coach…at least when it’s on my dime I can insist on our focus being on solving instead of admiring the problem.

The solution is actually reasonably well understood (there are dozens of coaches on youtube that can not only identify, but also fix the problem, even if it's not directly addressed in their videos). You're just asking the wrong people.

 

[Dragy]

I think the problem is well understood and beyond dispute…the solution is not. Since I am not in any discomfort am going to keep playing. Perhaps this problem can only be addressed by a coach…at least when it’s on my dime I can insist on our focus being on solving instead of admiring the problem.

You could definitely benefit from getting a coach because of immediate on-court feedback you need trying to correct what is ingrained. You better get one who has good record of teaching proper serve mechanics (see his students rather than himself).

 

[yossarian]

You said that you were studying in a doctorate program of physical therapy and posted on some important information on internal shoulder impingement. What is your opinion of the OP's upper arm angle and Ellenbecker's advice?

It looks high like you pointed out. My question to you is how do you suggest he fix it?

This is a habitual movement pattern for him. He isn’t deliberately ignoring your advice. Saying “see that? Do this instead” isn’t super helpful unless you tell him how

 

[Pumpkin]

I'm confused by the wrist angle. It's almost as if you can bend your wrist in a way that most people cannot. The fact that you are not hurt supports this theory. Usually something like this is a symptom of something else that is flawed , where the wrist is compensating. My guess is the hips. They seem to be too square on at contact.

In any event the toss is much better, so that's a step in the right direction. It's only a matter of time before you have a first class serve given your willingness to learn and practice.

 

[Chas Tennis]

Yeah I was confused on some of those too, nothing is perfect I guess.

This still concerns me a little, but if there's no pain then maybe nothing to worry about:

This display is very informative for comparing positions in one picture. How did you make it?

 

[Chas Tennis]

I think the problem is well understood and beyond dispute…the solution is not. Since I am not in any discomfort am going to keep playing. Perhaps this problem can only be addressed by a coach…at least when it’s on my dime I can insist on our focus being on solving instead of admiring the problem.

You need a well qualified instructor. You should still inform yourself much more. You should still do some of your own video analysis. Safety first.

Welcome to the Tennis Serve Nuthouse.

 

[eah123]

There is excess ulnar deviation when you contact the ball. Perhaps this is a result of an incorrect internal visualization. Try the feel tennis fence drill

and also these pronation drills.

 

[johnmccabe]

I think the problem is well understood and beyond dispute…the solution is not. Since I am not in any discomfort am going to keep playing. Perhaps this problem can only be addressed by a coach…at least when it’s on my dime I can insist on our focus being on solving instead of admiring the problem.

Start with shadow swing. Record 5-10 swings, watch video, repeat.

The intensity you are hitting the ball says you are not focusing on fixing strokes, but focusing on producing faster balls

 

[travlerajm]

Totally agree Pumpkin…gotta fix it. I played three sets tonight and on the less terribly placed tosses I could really feel things click into place. Will take some time to get it right but I am too much of an addict to let this prevent me from playing. But get it right I will!

The toss location was not the problem, it’s fine. The problem was that the momentum of your center of gravity was moving to the left at contact, when it should be moving directly forward into the court.

To get more forward momentum, I suggest leaning the left hip out into the court more as you toss.

 

[Pumpkin]

The toss location was not the problem, it’s fine. The problem was that the momentum of your center of gravity was moving to the left at contact, when it should be moving directly forward into the court.

To get more forward momentum, I suggest leaning the left hip out into the court more as you toss.

It wasn't fine in his first video but to his credit, he rectified it. However, I agree that as it turned out, that wasn't the cause of the problem. But this is the thing with fixing a stroke. It takes trial and error, process of elimination etc. There isn't even a coach on earth that isn't going to have to go thru this process.

 

[Pumpkin]

@Mungo I am very excited! It's the right hip coming through too far so you are square at the point of contact. Look at the images of pros people have posted at the point of contact. Their right hip is still back. Also, I tried air swings in my house releasing the hip foreward as you do, and yes, my wrist had to compensate by bending to the right. Everything can be fixed by correcting the hips. How to do it? What drills to do? I'm not sure. I would try serving without even moving the hips. Obviously just a drill. Just to get the feeling of keeping that hip back. Good luck.

 

[Mungo]

Pumpkin, how different is what you’re getting at from the idea of “not staying sideways long enough”, or “over-rotation”? I will admit that one thing I have seen across all the videos is that I am more or less facing forward at contact, whereas Tomaz (the feel guy) and others recommend only ending up square to the ball vs the target.

This article / video covers the subject pretty well. Will have to play around with staying sideways and see if that forces a different type of contact and pronation.

https://www.feeltennis.net/tennis-serve-contact/

 

[Chas Tennis]

When tennis serves are viewed with ground level video cameras or mental images are formed by what is actually seen when serving, the true angles are not well known. Toly created a single composite picture that shows the hand path, racket head path and ball trajectory in a useful way. I am still surprised at the relationship between those 3 angles and how large they are for a high level serve.

Also, to see overhead videos of serves, Google search or forum search for Fuzzy Yellow Balls videos of Frank Salazar kick, slice and flat serve. These show a different world of angles for the serve. When you serve you are standing in the middle and rotating and how you point head each millisecond determines what you see. I guess if the head moves in one unknown pattern and the hand, racket and ball move in other unknown paths, things can get confusing for mental images...... I like to think of the serve relative to the ball's trajectory - often the camera aligned looking along the trajectory is useful. ('behind view' showing bounce). Also, the camera angle looking perpendicular to the ball's trajectory. ('side view' often at impact of the ball's trajectory)

Look at the angles from a high camera view. ISR initiates at the lower red arrow and impacts the ball at the higher red arrow.

You can make pictures showing trajectory, hand path and racket path from your videos with Kinovea, a free, open-source video analysis program. Kinovea is great for all sports.

I have discussed camera angles and other considerations for videoing tennis strokes and posted often.

If you don't look, you don't see..........

 

[Nostradamus]

OK funny thing happened today. i was watching this guy's video a week ago and he Paid Rick Macci 2000 dollars to take this lesson on serve. So what Rick told him was keep the weight on back foot on serve and explode up but to practice this, use first the Pinpoint stance like Kyrios does and practice this weight on back foot.
So during the match today, i felt like my serve rethym was off today and was getting frustrated but then i remembered this video and tried this pinpoint as practice and went back to platform i normally do and WOW,,, It Worked like crazy to get me back into the rhythm and was serving much much better for the rest of the match.......

So i guess Rick Macci does know what he's talking about after all,,,, bit Expensive though

We've all seen Kyrios just get lazy and start with this weird looking pinpoint right off the bat, but it seems like Kyrios knows what he's doing

 

[Mungo]

Pumpkin I do think you’re on to something…a general over-rotation and ultimate positioning at contact which, gasp, has me facing the target. I think this ripples through into the contact position and the pronation geometry as well. I understand I need to be facing (at contact) somewhere more like another 45 degrees to the right in order to make the technique work.

I played three sets with a friend yesterday where I was experimenting with moving in this direction and it did have a very different feel, but it wasn’t enough repetitions to get an exact sense of it. I think (and Tomaz covers this well) that I still suffer from the illogic of facing and swinging to the right in order to make the ball go to the left, but that is the exact idea. And I have to do it enough times to prove to myself that it can work.

 

[TennisCJC]

Yeah I was confused on some of those too, nothing is perfect I guess.

This still concerns me a little, but if there's no pain then maybe nothing to worry about:

Yes, this concerns me too. At CONTACT, I think getting the hand outside (to the R of the contact point) and more shoulder angle where the R shoulder is higher than the left shoulder would be good for the quality of the serve and the long term health of the serving shoulder. This is a serve that impinges the R shoulder and can cause inflammation of the rotator cuff. Player should watch videos of pros from behind and they almost always have the hitting hand to the R of contact with tilt where R shoulder is higher than L shoulder for R handed servers. Get the L should up higher on the toss, then hit up where the L shoulder goes down while the R shoulder drives up to contact. Think of hitting up and to the R of the intended line to the intended target.

Toss could be more to R a bit and more in front too. Even with toss more to the R, you still can get the hitting hand outside of contact and the tilted shoulder angle.

When you advance to hitting top slice or kick serves, getting the hand outside of contact is even more critical because you cannot hit up through contact unless the racket angle is tilted. Watch video of Sam Stosur or Federer hitting 2nd serves from behind and the angle from their hand to contact will look like \ (backward slice). This allows the racket face to move up and to the R to impart top/slice to the ball.

Best of luck and have fun.

 

[Pumpkin]

Yes, I had a similar problem with my forehand where I was bringoing my right hip foreward too much before contact. This resulted in a strange follow through. Once I fixed the hips, automatically the follow through was right. This took a few years and loads and loads of practice. A lot of that time I wasn't really sure what I was doing wrong. That's what we are trying to do here. To pinpoint the problem so the learning time is reduced. It's still going to take a lot of work to force your body to do something different. Utilising drills should help. Serve a basket of balls without even moving your feet or hips. Actually, it would be interesting to see if that funky wrist thing goes away when you do that drill.

 

[Mungo]

I always rolled my eyes at the serve from sitting position (knees or on a chair) drills but it occurred to me that doing so would force my lower half out of the equation. What do you think of that drill for this particular challenge and does anything else along those lines jump out at you?

 

[Pumpkin]

I would just stand in the platform position and don't move other than maybe bending the knees. The goal is to stop the hip from coming through and to see if it fixes the wrist thing.

 

[Digital Atheist]

This display is very informative for comparing positions in one picture. How did you make it?

I just took a screenshot of each frame I wanted then used GIMP to layer and move them left or right, until things were correctly aligned.

Download full Youtube videos here if you don't have an add-on:

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Edit: It looks like that site is no longer accessible when in the USA, so here are several working alternatives:

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Screenshot in your favourite player using whatever shortcut or command you desire (I use smplayer on Linux so capital S screenshots the current frame but I'm sure VLC on windows has a screenshot key configuration). Also, make sure you have your desired screenshot directory setup. I always use full screenshots so once all the images are layered, even when moving left or right, the horizontal alignment stays the same and gives the correct perspective.

Then use Photoshop or GIMP (or your preferred image editor) to arrange and edit:
GIMP is free and open source:

GIMP - Downloads

The official download page for all things GIMP! Please only use the official binaries provided here unless you really, really know what you’re doing (it’s the only way to be safe). We try to provide binaries in-time with regular releases, but may occasionally be delayed as the packagers …

www.gimp.org

I will make a screen recording video on how to do this later with GIMP (since that's free); it really isn't very hard, stay tuned.

 

[Digital Atheist]

@Chas Tennis ;
So I used his other linked video as a demo. Here is the final image:

And here is how I made it. It does take some time (approximately 5 minutes for this many frames isn't a big deal) but imo it can sometimes be worth it. And anyone who is proficient with an image editor can already achieve this (most probably just don't have the time).

Since this is a screen recording, it is only @ 720p, but that should suffice. No sound or extra editing other than speeding up a couple of repetitive tasks. Also, there is a much easier way to do this if you don't need that level of precision (cropping the entire image before resizing does away with having to apply an alpha channel to every layer, and it also removes the need to cut the left and right from every layer). Edit: Here is the new link but I selected the wrong group of photos, however I'm not going to redo the video since the process is still the same!

But if you want to capture a rather large series of screenshots - let's say 30 or more from a single serve video taken at 60fps (or more), then Avidemux is a better bet; just open the video, set marker A and marker B, then file->save as image ->save selection as jpeg" will output every frame between the markers. At least that is how the dialogues on my version work.

 

[Mungo]

I zipped out for an hour to see what impact delayed / deemphasized rotation would have on the swing and pronation geometry. I don’t think I see a miracle here, but then again I didn’t fully succeed in staying sideways either. But, it did feel really good to make flat contact from this body orientation so will try again next time out. One of my checkpoints will be “do I need to shift my gaze in order to see where the ball ended up.” On the few times where this happened, there was generally a very good result.

 

[Dragy]

I zipped out for an hour to see what impact delayed / deemphasized rotation would have on the swing and pronation geometry. I don’t think I see a miracle here, but then again I didn’t fully succeed in staying sideways either. But, it did feel really good to make flat contact from this body orientation so will try again next time out. One of my checkpoints will be “do I need to shift my gaze in order to see where the ball ended up.” On the few times where this happened, there was generally a very good result.

Have you tried any “edge-on” progression? Starting with literally hitting the ball with the edge upward? Then proceeding to opening into/through contact?

 

[Mungo]

That sounds like one of the Feel Tennis progressions that I used to get going initially, but perhaps I should revisit. That would be starting from the racquet drop position, edge up.

 

[eah123]

I zipped out for an hour to see what impact delayed / deemphasized rotation would have on the swing and pronation geometry. I don’t think I see a miracle here, but then again I didn’t fully succeed in staying sideways either. But, it did feel really good to make flat contact from this body orientation so will try again next time out. One of my checkpoints will be “do I need to shift my gaze in order to see where the ball ended up.” On the few times where this happened, there was generally a very good result.

In viewing this video, it looks like your wrist is flopping back into the waiter's tray. To avoid doing this, try the birthday hat drill.

 

[Mungo]

I noticed that as well…not a full on waiters tray but heading uncomfortably in that direction. As the acceleration begins I can see I have already partially opened up the face and aren’t truly edge on. That can be tomorrow’s focus!

Today I did largely what I did yesterday but remembering to get more fisty with my grip. I can see my toss drifting to the left again so need to clean that up or I will never address this other stuff, some of which stems from trying to work with a bad toss.

 

[Mungo]

Hi guys, it has been a few weeks so thought I would update. Video below is from this morning. I had a bit of a breakthrough a couple weeks ago when a coach told me to “ignore everything else” and only focus (for now) on a slightly higher toss and keeping my head and gaze locked on the ball through contact. I had a tendency to rush through the movement before (because of the low toss) and that was exacerbated by too much focus on where the ball was going. Putting everything else aside (other than toss location, which was fundamental) and focusing on just this turned out to generate immediate and very noticeable improvement. So, am sure all the other tips are of value but the hard part of this entire project is knowing where to prioritize.

So, with all that said, what do you make of this vs some of my earlier videos? I know SwingVision can’t be fully trusted (for speed ratings) so not sure what to make of some of the faster readings.
i

 

[tennisbike]

The focus is finding the solution. Let's not focus on the problem.

A few things to try:

• To find the motion keeping the torso more sideways, serve on your knees.
• Try shadow swings first. abreviated arm motion starting from "solute" position. Go through drop (scratch your back) and gently pull up. Racket will go loop away, then feel the pronation/ISR/snap, as the racket square up through the contact zone. keep elbow up (picture Sampras). The racket go swish! Do that until you can feel the motion, not force, but speed before doing with the ball.
• This is a very good video. The girl in there is doing something similar to OP.

 

[Mungo]

Do you feel after watching my last video that staying sideways is still worth concentrating on above all else?

 

[tennisbike]

Do you feel after watching my last video that staying sideways is still worth concentrating on above all else?

There are many elements that makes up a sound service motion, staying more sideway is one. If I were you I would focus on the most essential part, which is how the racket moves. Why racket? What makes the ball goes? Racket face. What moves the racket? Your hand?
I think you probably have more information than you really need, probably too confusing. To start, if you want to reprogram your serve properly, do not serve buckets and buckets of balls incorrectly. You are programming the wrong motion. Do it slow, without balls.. until you feel the flow, without forcing it.
Good luck on your journey! Yes, it will take time.

 

[Chas Tennis]

There are many elements that makes up a sound service motion, staying more sideway is one. If I were you I would focus on the most essential part, which is how the racket moves. Why racket? What makes the ball goes? Racket face. What moves the racket? Your hand?
I think you probably have more information than you really need, probably too confusing. To start, if you want to reprogram your serve properly, do not serve buckets and buckets of balls incorrectly. You are programming the wrong motion. Do it slow, without balls.. until you feel the flow, without forcing it.
Good luck on your journey! Yes, it will take time.

What are your thoughts about Internal Shoulder Rotation and the tennis serve?

Do you agree with the tennis biomechanics researchers that wrote the reference books that the ITF published starting in 2003 with The Biomechanics of Advanced Tennis?

Have you read a reference on biomechanics and the tennis serve?

Do you have a link to your most accurate reference describing the technique that you are advocating for the serve?

Is it the high level technique with ISR or not?