I can serve, that's not what this topic is about. I want to know how to put more power into my serves, and I already know about using your legs and rotation. But what about my weight? As I throw the ball up do I have to shift all my weight onto my back foot, and then shift it forward as I swing? Or does it not matter?
Serve weight transferring?
- Thread starter wishsong
- Start date
phoenicks
Professional
rocking your weight backward and forward as you prepare to get into trophy pose is actually not a determinant of a powerful serve, look at Andy Roddick and Gael Monfils. And as or shifting your weight forward for a powerful serve, 2 things are important,
1) does your upper body lean back enough?? is it pronounced? Do you lead with you hip??
for more info, Will from FYB have have talk about it here: http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=HgeYmEScfgQ
2)Did you have a deep knee bend???
Actually, up until the trophy pose, everything is just for pose only, if you really want to simplify your serve and still have a powerful 1.
Of course, the above 2 I mentioned is just the weight transfer essentials of a good serve, there's still other variables involved in the making of a good serve, i.e fast racquet head speed, Pronation, how fast you rotates your body, and most importantly, precise timing & feel.
1) does your upper body lean back enough?? is it pronounced? Do you lead with you hip??
for more info, Will from FYB have have talk about it here: http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=HgeYmEScfgQ
2)Did you have a deep knee bend???
Actually, up until the trophy pose, everything is just for pose only, if you really want to simplify your serve and still have a powerful 1.
Of course, the above 2 I mentioned is just the weight transfer essentials of a good serve, there's still other variables involved in the making of a good serve, i.e fast racquet head speed, Pronation, how fast you rotates your body, and most importantly, precise timing & feel.
SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
Nope. Normally the weight is on the back foot prior to commencing the ball toss -- it does not stay there while you are tossing. The weight is typically shifted as your tossing arm moves upward to release the ball. The weight distribution when the ball is released may vary from one server to the next. Some players may have 60% on the front foot or even nearly equal distribution. Others may have something closer to 80% on the front foot. In the absence of pressure plate studies, these are mere guesses on my part.
Note, however, that both legs are responsible for leg drive during the serve. The leg extension precede the arm extension -- the legs drive upward as the racket is dropped behind the back. Therefore the legs extend just prior to the upward swing of the racket head in order to achieve an optimal kinetic/power transfer.
Since the rear leg/foot extends and the leave the ground first, this tends to push the body both upward and forward. The front leg can also contribute to the forward drive, but it appears to primarily drive upward. Take a look at the FYB video on leg drive:
au.youtube.com/watch?v=HfFwnqZAf7I&feature=channel
.
I think it can be instructive to research golf swing tuition in terms of rotation and weight transfer.
With a wide platform serve there seems to be no logic in getting any weight too far back e.g. BEHIND your back foot, although I suppose you could spring back from a rear leg archers bow but that seems absurd and I think would completely mess up the mechanics.
Not sure how essential weight transfer is for serving effectiveness but it can help to propel you into the court for serve and volley.
It may also help people like me (I'm a platform server) who have hallux rigidus i.e. a stiff joint in the big toe of my front foot so I have to use my rear leg and side-flexing/rotating torso to move forward quickly over the stiff/tender flinch point (with a little pain). In some ways I can equate my front leg to the pole in a pole vault but of course it is bent and then straightening at the knee and active in a different way.
If the platform is too wide or the weight transfer over too long a range then I find my serve goes awry and I fail to get upwards enough, (Just like you can over-rotate.) There is an ideal compromise to be struck somewhere I suppose. Pinpoint is an alternative for some and Ivanisevic had a pretty long starting base before sliding his rear leg up - but look what an awesome serve this ace machine had!
With a wide platform serve there seems to be no logic in getting any weight too far back e.g. BEHIND your back foot, although I suppose you could spring back from a rear leg archers bow but that seems absurd and I think would completely mess up the mechanics.
Not sure how essential weight transfer is for serving effectiveness but it can help to propel you into the court for serve and volley.
It may also help people like me (I'm a platform server) who have hallux rigidus i.e. a stiff joint in the big toe of my front foot so I have to use my rear leg and side-flexing/rotating torso to move forward quickly over the stiff/tender flinch point (with a little pain). In some ways I can equate my front leg to the pole in a pole vault but of course it is bent and then straightening at the knee and active in a different way.
If the platform is too wide or the weight transfer over too long a range then I find my serve goes awry and I fail to get upwards enough, (Just like you can over-rotate.) There is an ideal compromise to be struck somewhere I suppose. Pinpoint is an alternative for some and Ivanisevic had a pretty long starting base before sliding his rear leg up - but look what an awesome serve this ace machine had!
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habssuck69
New User
Not to throw too much at you because the other posters had good advice too, but tossing more into the court is a tried and true way to get power
Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
What is "weight transfer"?
How does a relatively slow motion referred to as "weight transfer" make a difference to serve speed?
Here is a very informative video on 1) the older forehand technique of a 'step forward and transfer your weight into the ball' forehand in comparison to 2) a more modern circular rotation forehand. On the circular forehand, notice that there is not much 'step forward weight transfer'. But notice how alike the rapid turn of the uppermost body is for the linear or circular forehand techniques - they look almost identical. See especially 3:05 and 4:30.
(When you can't define your terms, it's a red flag.)
How does a relatively slow motion referred to as "weight transfer" make a difference to serve speed?
Here is a very informative video on 1) the older forehand technique of a 'step forward and transfer your weight into the ball' forehand in comparison to 2) a more modern circular rotation forehand. On the circular forehand, notice that there is not much 'step forward weight transfer'. But notice how alike the rapid turn of the uppermost body is for the linear or circular forehand techniques - they look almost identical. See especially 3:05 and 4:30.
(When you can't define your terms, it's a red flag.)
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Weight transfer may be a relatively slow motion but it is transferring a relatively large weight i.e. adding your body (compared to just the arm, racket and ball). Force = mass x acceleration, so mass (weight) is a major factor.
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Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
The masses stay the same in a tennis stroke. [ Weight is the force of gravity on Earth for a given mass. That mass on the Moon or anywhere is the same but the weight is different.] The acceleration of a linear motion forward and the acceleration of a circular motion can have similar effects to speed up body parts and stretch muscles as the Dan Brown video demonstrates.
The center of mass for a linear forehand moves forward as shown in the Dan Brown forehand video. You could call 'mass transfer' 'weight transfer' if you like since on Earth weight and mass are so closely associated.
The center of mass does not move forward in the circular forehand as the video shows. There is no weight transfer at all. But that circular forehand technique has mostly replaced the step forward forehand at the highest levels of tennis. Does the term 'weight transfer' apply to a circular forehand? No. Or do both linear and circular techniques use accelerations and the inertia of body parts for stretching muscles and getting high racket head speed?
Of course, players are running around and strokes are not all circular or all linear.
But thinking of strokes in terms of 'weight transfer' and always including a 'step forward' is entrenched in the Tennis Stroke Nuthouse. (Before I saw the Dan Brown video the two forehands techniques and the terms to describe them were muddled together in my head. Keep watching that video.)
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The mass may stay the same but weight transfer is about movement of the mass.
I didn't say the whole mass was transferred forward into the shot, I just said it was a factor ... and due to momentum and inertia may have more impact than some might expect. Boxers throw straight rights and more circular hooks and uppercuts etc. but bodyweight is a huge game changer. I know it is far more complex than this - this is deliberate over-simplification to illustrate a point.
Mass is important in rotational forces - that's why a flywheel is effective.
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Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
Do we agree that there is no 'weight transfer' for the current circular forehands?
Raul_SJ
G.O.A.T.
Below is the Dr Mark Kovacs drill who views the serve as similar to shotput throw. He has student picking up a tennis ball from the court. Much of the weight is on the back foot. The drill is exaggerated but the point is to have the weight on the back foot as the service motion goes forward.
Dragy
Legend
To determine how and when whole body motions contribute to actual ball hitting reconstruct the sequence backward from contact point. E.g. for high level serve the server’s body is more or less still at contact - “hanging” in the air at the top level of elevation. All contribution to speeding up the arm and racquet has happened earlier through the motion.
Yes, sure, I agree that the term 'weight transfer' in "tennis talk" is habitually used to mean linear transfer of weight from back foot to front foot. But there is a danger of semantics clouding the absolutes because in truth the circular rotation movements involve rotating the weight so really it is still a transfer of weight but in a circular direction.
The videos and discussions are great though because they open up our minds and help us to look deeper and take on board what affects our strokes and may help us improve and/or reduce the risk of injury.
The linear weight transfer which is applicable to groundstrokes and serves tends to involve a natural limit of 180 degrees shoulder turn, but of course you can still consciously go beyond this and add a bit. On both serves and groundstrokes I think a lot of us have a hybrid mix of both linear and circular weight transfer or winding up on the backswing.
Jim McClennan does an interesting serve video which discusses both of these and the enigmatic order of applying them on the backswing mentions both but recommends focussing on the linear (cartwheel) technique rather than rotational and/or "somersault/crunch".
A video earlier in this forum which involves converting an old school linear forehand to a circular modern one talks about the stress on the planted front knee of the old one and powerfully pushing off the back leg with the new one to get the front foot off the ground. But I have read plenty more articles which blame injuries, especially hip, on the modern open stance forehand with it's rotational forces. Also it is perfectly possible to switch and vary the emphasis to loading of the back foot with the old school groundstrokes and either get your front foot off the ground or minimise any weight and torque on it. Planting of the front foot is more obvious on the one-handed backhand but players angle it a bit more towards the net to prevent jamming the hip and knee.
My concerns are not just about the effect on the serve and the strokes but also on the body when these forceful shots are repeated thousands of times. Minimising the risk of injury is paramount.
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fuzz nation
G.O.A.T.
Sometimes a developing server can use too much leg action to lift the ball for the toss or stretch forward/upward when performing that action - or both. That leaves nothing left to push with when it's time to swing the racquet over the top.
To help with synchronizing the weight transfer in a developing serve, I like to use a simple drill that requires taking a tennis ball in each hand and setting up at the baseline as you would align yourself to hit your serve. Assuming you're a right-hander, you toss the ball in your left hand as you do with your serve, and then while that first ball is in the air in the neighborhood of your contact point for your serve, throw the second ball up through that first ball with a complete throwing motion. Try to hit that first ball - the toss - with the second ball - the full throw.
That second ball will fly through a high arc at around 45 degrees or so - unless it actually hits the first ball that you tossed - and maybe land around the far baseline or even further back if you give it a good ride. You might even want to warm up with a couple of those right-handed throws to get used to the weight transfer and push that you need for that throw and also for driving the racquet when you serve.
Throwing the second ball through the first ball can be an easy way to trick you into saving that bigger "push" for the swing instead of the toss. Just make sure that the right-handed throw is angled upward and not horizontal toward the other end of the court.
Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
If anyone is interested in whether the center of mass of the body moves forward or whether it stays in one place and rotation occurs, or a mix of both, they should look at high speed videos and not rely on word descriptions. The Dan Brown video is a model of how it can be done.
If players try to remember the tennis strokes as a series of very simple words, such as 'weight transfer', used as instructions as I have done, it's likely that some of those 2 or 3 word instructions are wrong.
By the way, this thread is 10 years old.
If players try to remember the tennis strokes as a series of very simple words, such as 'weight transfer', used as instructions as I have done, it's likely that some of those 2 or 3 word instructions are wrong.
By the way, this thread is 10 years old.
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Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
I think words have to be used along with videos as the best available source of information.
Whether the circular forehand might stress the hip and cause injuries is another very important topic, good for a second thread.
I completely agree, as they say: "a picture paints a thousand words". I would be interested to see the Dan Brown video you referred to above. Do you have a link? (Although I would have thought slow motion would be more revealing, but my ipad allows speed options on the playback.)
Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
Thanks, much appreciated.
Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
A high recording speed is required since it allows frame-by-frame viewing so that the fastest motions of a stroke can be seen. For example, a 240 fps recording allows a 100 MPH racket head to be seen every 7" of its motion. At 30 fps an object moves 59" between frames.
of course, silly me! Yes, these are invaluable for accurate analysis.
